Can't We Say That The Confederate Flag And States Rights Are Bad

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I think I went to bed and woke up in a parallel universe....

The confederate flag represents the antebellum south whose major feature was slavery....

The whole opposition to the Civil Rights movement in the South was based on the canard of states rights... Crack open a history book for the love of God....

When demagogues like Strom Thurmond , Jesse Helms, and George Wallace opposed the Civil Rights movemement they did it in the name of states rights....

I can hear Strom say now we "love our negras" but we don't want Washington interfering in our affairs...

Anybody that flies that flag isn't going to vote for a Democrat anyway.... It's like expecting Edward Norton's character in American History X to vote for Chuck Schumer.....

[wtmusic]

1. You can say anything you want

Just don't misinterpret Dean's remarks as meaning he wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act and move the capital to Richmond.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Didn't Say That.....

but I see DUers defending states rights and the Confederate flag....

[Speck Tater]

2. Nope. Not bad, because...

I have a sticker in the window of my pickup that says "ORYGUN". I'm proud of my state and feel a certain amount of state-patriotism. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Today the Confederate flag no longer stands for slavery. Instead it stands as a generic symbol for "The South", and is used as an expression of regional pride. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and turning it into a big deal sounds a little hysterical to me.

The meaning of symbols changes over time. Don't get trapped in the distant past by assuming that the symbol means today what it meant 140 years ago. To most people it doesn't remotely conjure images of slavery.

(edit for spelling)

[AP]

6. Black people in the south don't drive around with the confederate flag

unless they're trying to be very ironic, and even in that case, they're acknowledging how racist the symbol is. Dean wasn't trying to be ironic.

[bigtree]

12. State's rights Segregation

not slavery. Dixicrats brought it back. Should bury it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. As Someone Who Has Actually Lived In The South Since I Was A Boy

I know better.....

The conferderate flag is a slap in the chops to every African American....

Show me an African American who thinks otherwise and I'll revisit my position....

And Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, And Thomas Sowell don't count....

The Confederate flag is almost as hideous as the Swastika....

[JVS]

3. I agree. But this is just the logical result of our party's obsession...

with regaining the South. Nixon had a Southern Strategy, it worked, accept it, take the fight to better ground.

[Skip Intro]

5. Yet, it is possible

that states have rights, and that those rights were hijacked as a hot issue by slimy politicians

and it is possible that the Confederate Flag has some value other than that you attribute to it - possible, yes? maybe the flag never hurt anyone, and I'm not convinced the rebel flag = support for bigotry - I'm not convinced it doesn't either. I am aware it casues revulsion, or at least discomfort for many, but at the same time it is held in a place of honor and heritage by many. I can no more condemn those supporters as racist bigots than I can dismmiss those who decry it as whiners.

And what does this ultimately amount to anyway? I'll say the same thing I say to the Green's potentially nominating a Prez candidate: let's forget our own personal agendas and rally around any Dem against this dispicable regime we are hoping to survive.

[AP]

7. Republican like states rights when statelegislatures are more conservative

than the federal legislature.

Whent he state is more liberal, they like federalism.

This flag issue has little to do with states rights and everythign to do with conservativism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Whiners.....

So people who oppose the Confederate flag are whiners.....

[Skip Intro]

15. A total misrepersentation of what I said, and I don't appreciate it

This is what I said:


------
and it is possible that the Confederate Flag has some value other than that you attribute to it - possible, yes? maybe the flag never hurt anyone, and I'm not convinced the rebel flag = support for bigotry - I'm not convinced it doesn't either. I am aware it casues revulsion, or at least discomfort for many, but at the same time it is held in a place of honor and heritage by many. I can no more condemn those supporters as racist bigots than I can dismmiss those who decry it as whiners.
-----------

That seems pretty damned clear to me. We are talking about the flag and what it supposedly stands for, and I am basically saying, admitting my lack of knowledge, that I can't condemn the supporters or protestors.

I can no more condemn those supporters as racist bigots than I can dismmiss those who decry it as whiners.

I am trying to control myself in my repsonse to your thinly veiled accusation that I'm somehow racist. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Don't Control Yourself.....

And your your little threats don't scare me.....

I'd say alot more but I value my posting privileges....

I never called you a racist.... I never implied you were a racist but by your words you are hoisted on your own petard....

"I can no more condemn those supporters as racist bigots than I can dismiss those who decry it as whiners."

You are putting supporters of the Confederate flag and it's detractors on the same moral plane....

As someone who has an African American sister in law and has endured the icy stares when me and her and my biracial nephew and niece travel through parts of the country I take umbrage at being put on the same moral plane as Confederate flag wavers....

I don't think you are a racist but the Confederate flag is a tar baby that clings to anybody who does anything but criticize it....

[Skip Intro]

19. "and your little threats don't scare me"

What threats, psycho?

"You are putting supporters of the Confederate flag and it's detractors on the same moral plane....

Its called an open mind, I explained that, as best I could, in my first post.

"throwing me in with Confederat flag wavers." ?!?!?!?!?

What the hell are you talking about????

I'm trying to defend myself against you from the same damned thing?

And hey, the fact that you have an African-American sister in law doesn't increase your self-worth one iota.

And you did try to smear me by insisting on taking a three word portion of a post out of context. Bo, we ain't all that dum out hehya.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. "I Am Trying To Control Myself"

Most folks would construe that as a threat....


"Psycho".... Ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of a verbal gun slinger who has used all his bullets....


<kisses>


Brian


on edit- <open mouth kisses>


With love,

Brian

[Skip Intro]

21. I guess "most folks" have found a spokesman, then?

what the hell ever dude

on edit: you can't kiss worth a damn either

btw, you responded to this from my post "What threats, psycho?"

But you completely failed to justify or defend your blatant perversion of of my comments, and in doing so, failed to respond to this:
----------
"You are putting supporters of the Confederate flag and it's detractors on the same moral plane....

Its called an open mind, I explained that, as best I could, in my first post.

"throwing me in with Confederat flag wavers." ?!?!?!?!?

What the hell are you talking about????
----------------

I guess I'd rather kiss than talk too, buddy.
I'm trying to defend myself against you from the same damned thing?

And hey, the fact that you have an African-American sister in law doesn't increase your self-worth one iota.

And you did try to smear me by insisting on taking a three word portion of a post out of context. Bo, we ain't all that dum out hehya.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. A Spokesman For What

A spokesman for the simple proposition that the Confederate flag is offensive to people of color and states rights has been used by unconstructed segregationists to thwart African American advancement.......


We both come from the South.... There's no mistaking the reasons some folks fly that flag.....

[Skip Intro]

24. Discredited and unapologetic, you wish to continue

Now your "simple proposition" is that the Confederate flag is offensive to people of color. I believe I acknowledged that it was, as well as offensive to people against racism. What I left open was the possiblity that this perception may or may not be based in fact.

"The confederate flag represents the antebellum south whose major feature was slavery...." - that's what your first post said. not quite the same "simple proposition," eh?

Sorry if that was a stretch for you.

"there's no mistaking why some folks fly that flag"
dude, there's no mistaking that some folks who fly the US flag are in no way supporters of what that flag stands for. In fact, they are trying to change what that flag stands for. I hope to stop them.

at the same time, I can't help but allow for the possibility that someone hijacked the "meaning" of the Confederate flag.

POSSIBLE - that's what I said!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. In My Best Joe Friday Voice

Just the facts

Fact - The confederate flag was the banner that the antebellum secessionists carried into battle.

What were they defending?

[Skip Intro]

28. tell me

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Slavery And The Right Of Secession

Both odious....

[Skip Intro]

32. Does that flag stand for slavery????!!!!!

Does it????

Did it then???????


Some say no.

Does my post here mean that since I don't fall in line with you in wanting to burn that flag that I somehow support what you say it means? Dude, I'll make up my own mind, thanx.

In the meantime, I value my freedom enough to know gwmoron is a far greater threat to that freedom than some possible paranoia about an old symbol and its power. Really, its like 666 or something.

btw, didn't the kkk burn croses? Why don't you consider the cross a racist symbol?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. A Burning Cross Is A Racist Symbol....

The Supreme Court even banned it as being inciteful.....

[Skip Intro]

37. And the confederate flag?

thank you

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Am A First Amendment Absolutist....

A person can fly any flag he want and burn any cross he wants but folks of good faith can call him on it....


Yes, states have the right to fly any flag they want but it's sad when they fly the Confederate one...

[Skip Intro]

30. FACTS?!! - YOU just misrepresented MY words, and you want to talk facts?

You just tried to leave the impression that I was saying something, something repulsive btw, that I indeed was obviously not saying. And now you want to talk facts.

maybe its a bad night for you man, I dunno,

I don't want any enemies here, and so far, that's been easy, but I am not gonna let you slander me and then spin yourself dizzy -

you attacked me

you twisted my words

you should apologize

we'll talk fact when you come down

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Not Repulsive.....Unintentionally Careless

and I never implied or inferred that you were a racist....

This conversation started downhill and is getting worse....


You should apologize to me for saying I said you were a racist...


Maybe I'm not making myself clear......


To some folks that flag is as bad as the swastika and to even suggest their outrage isn't justified is not good...

Some folks hate that flag.... I'd say most of the folks who fly it know that....

That's all....

on edit- If I offended you I'm sorry.....

[Skip Intro]

35. Man, you should be a politician

No, I shouldn't apologize to you, you twice quoted me as saying those against the Confederate flag were "whiners." That is not what I said, yet it is what you'd think I'd said had one read only your posts on the matter. Don't play games, man.

It started going down hill at that suggestion, and I don't believe you thought anyone would question you. Well, think again.

My beef with you is not my interpretation of that flag, I haven't even stated that. My beef with you is that you tried to imply I was pushing a point of view that I clearely was not.

Let's end it here.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. I Can't ....

This is becoming more and more peurile...

This is your position as I interpet it...


To you the intent of folks who wave the Confederate flag are ambiguous.....


To me there is no ambiguity....

[Skip Intro]

41. Again with the bs

As you interpret it???!!! It was pretty damned clear, my man. And again, its not what you're saying it was. Go back and read.

I made one post with the postition that I could no more dismiss the flag's supporters than I could dismiss it's protesters. Go read it again.

I in no way lumped all flag supporters together, only to say they shouldn't be dismissed without question. I applied the same lack of knowledge and open-mindedness to each group.

YOUR postistion, as I interpret it, is that anyone who doesn't agree with you that the confederate flag = slavery is somehow a racist. What other conclusion could be reached?

You have twisted my words, and you still try to get me to defend them. They stand on their own, and I have restated the meaning here more than once.

You are the bigot, sir.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Good Night

NT

[billbuckhead]

13. We can't win by creating just as despicable regime.

NRA, Confederate flag, states rights, class based AA, it all sounds like AssKKKracks agenda.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Don't Want To Make This A Dean Thing.....

I just want to discredit States Rights as currently formulated and the Confederate flag.....

[mitchum]

9. very bad

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Didn't You Read

The people who oppose the Confederate flag are whiners.....

[Skip Intro]

17. That's about enough of that, DSB - I resent your slander.

Look, that's not what the fuck I said, and I resent your misrepresentation. I said this:

I can no more condemn those supporters as racist bigots than I can dismmiss those who decry it as whiners

I am admitting nothing more than an open mind on the issue. Why should I believe that flag means slavery? Because you said so? Did they fly that flag on the slave ships?

You owe me an apology, but I won't hold my breath.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. This Is Getting Out Of Hand....

If I offended you I apologize.....


Good night

Brian

[Forkboy]

16. Yes and No

[DoNotRefill]

23. So ALL States Rights arguments are bad?

There are a bunch of states that issue Concealed Weapons permits. Under the "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution, there's an arguable case that these should be recognized automatically in every state, just like marriage licenses are recognized in every state. The ONLY reason they aren't is because of the State's right to exercise police powers differently.

If there were no "state's rights", then a Florida or Colorado issued CCW permit would be valid in New York, New Jersey, Massachucetts, and California.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Believe In The Tenth Amendment

but states rights are a code word usually but not exclusively used by folks who want to curtail not expand civil rights...

It is usually invoked by the most reactionary members of our polity including Supreme Court justices Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas....


In fact that was the foundtation for their dissent in the recent sodomy case.... That it was a state rights issue....

[Skip Intro]

26. It depends on the flag (n/t)

O

[dkf]

33. If states rights are bad

are you willing to say that Ashkroft is right to arrest those buying medical marijuana through state laws?

Sometimes states rights are not bad, especially when the Federal Govt Congress and the Federal bench are being run by the Repubs.

Unless we take over these institutions, states rights might be our only reprieve.

[Maddy McCall]

36. Thanks, DemSinceBirth...

You are so right, but Dean's supporters will go to any length to excuse what Dean said.

Another thing: What he said was offensive to me, a progressive southerner, because he typecasted us as rebel-flag waving pickup drivers. There are progressives here who have invested blood, sweat, tears, and money into equality, and for him to think such an assinine statement in any way can bridge the racial divide is just crazy, and it makes light of the real grass-roots work that goes on here everyday.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Thank You....

This thread wasn't intended to attack Dean or his supporters... I didn't mention him....

I just have a problem with the flag and states rights as it is currently construed....

[w4rma]

44. I don't think you completely understand states rights or localism (n/t)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Understand The Tenth Amendment

that certain rights are reserved to the states....


I also understand the bastardization of the Tenth Amendment Amendment by many on the right....

[leftofthedial]

43. no

we can't

pretty much every premise in your post is wrong and ignorant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. How So

The antebellum south stood for slavery and secession .... The Confederate flag was the flag they carried into battle....

The flag was more or less dormant until the Civil Rights era when some southern states resurrected it as a display of their opposition to black progress...


As far as the little ad hominem attack it's very becoming of you....

POT=KETTLE=BLACK

[leftofthedial]

49. sorry for ad hominem. I'm sure you're not ignorant about everything

But statement "The antebellum south stood for slavery and secession' is FALSE.

Very few southerners fought or died for slavery. And what is your complaint against secession specifically? It is neither immoral, unethical or even illegal.

I've seen the confederate flag since I was a child in the 50's. It's meaning to the owner of the first Confederate flag I ever saw had ZERO to do with either slavery or secession.

It's about slavery to you if you want it to be. It's about racism to racists if they want it to be. YOU don't get to decide what it means to me or to some pickup owner or to a citizen of Mississippi.

You prefer the stars and stripes that waved proudly over two centuries of Native American genocide? Every symbol has been used for good and for evil, so get off your xenophobic anti-Southern high horse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Whatever.....

Here's a couple of links...

The history of states rights....


http://www.bartleby.com/65/st/statesri.html


The NAACP on the Confederate flag.....


http://www.geocities.com/southernnation/NAACP.html


It seems that all my assertions were documented but don't let the facts get in the way of a good, errrrrrrr,losing argument....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[leftofthedial]

50. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FWIW, here's a bit of what I think . . .

"It's a red white and blue flag, but it ain't ours."

I'm way more interested in ridding the world of fascism than I am in worrying about who likes or doesn't like scraps of colored cloth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Symbols Have Power....

I'll bet if I took a Confederate flag into many areas I would get a very hostile reception...


In fact symbols are so powerful that the Supreme Court banned cross burning because of it's potential to incite violence....