****** DEAN CONFEDERATE FLAG THREAD #1 ******

[Skinner]

I am aware that my title breaks the GD rules. I am making the title very prominent because it is the only GD thread about this topic.

Apparently things got pretty ugly around here last night. I have temporarily decided to lock all of the Dean/Confederate flag threads that get started in the General Discussion forum, in an effort to get people to chill out. If you wish to discuss the issue in the General Discussion Forum, you must do so in this thread. I expect anyone who wishes to discuss this to do so in an adult manner. This restriction is for the General Discussion Forum only.

Late today, if the behavior improves, I will remove this temporary restriction.

ON EDIT: I have posted a poll about this issue. It is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=634098

Skinner
DU Admin

Howard Dean's Comment Sparks Iowa Dust-Up

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=8&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_2004

WASHINGTON - A comment by Howard Dean about Confederate flags and pickup trucks has embroiled the leading Democrats in Iowa's presidential caucuses in a name-calling donnybrook.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean's campaign said Saturday that Dean was intending to encourage the return of Southern voters who have abandoned the Democrats for decades but are disaffected with the Republicans.

Two Democrat rivals competing against Dean in Iowa's leadoff Jan. 19 caucuses saw the comment differently.

more

[Paschall]

1. Well, I'll jump in here...

Please read this before flaming...

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html

[DavidMS]

24. I believe that dean knows his history...

after the civil war there was much speculation that a colition of former slaves and yeoman farmers would dominate american politics. Needless to say Jim Crow put an end to that. Needless to say the US would be in much better shape if those two voting blocks had made common cause.

I think Dean is trying to do the same thing. He has removed certan symbolic disabilities to attracting their votes (for him guns are a state issue) and then said that rednecks have the same economic intrests as himself (universal health care, jobs that pay a fair day's work for a fair day's wage). If this helps develop a broad-based social class identifying voting block for our party we can beat the crooks (republicans) on a regular basis.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. I agree with Jackson's take on this

I agree with Dean, southern working class whites should vote Democratic. Civil rights and anti-racism is a core value of the Democratic party, and one that all the candidates are united on. Dean basically told bigots who fly the confederate flag that racism is blinding them to economic reality. Good for Dean for being candid.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. Right on the money.

Dean basically told bigots who fly the confederate flag that racism is blinding them to economic reality.

[mmonk]

97. But what would be the reason?

I have a little problem in its condescending to a whole region of the U.S.. Also, even though I know it represents (the flag) rascism, not all that may have one of those flags is rascist but misguidedly think it represents some sort of regional pride other than treason.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

101. The reason for what?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The reason to vote Democratic? The reason for using the Confed. flag as a symbol? The reason why voting Republican is against their economic interests? Please clarify. Thanks.

[mmonk]

103. using the flag.

If he wanted to appeal to poor people of the region or those that have been laid off, he could just bring up thoses issues directly without the flag.

[Classical_Liberal]

106. because this wasn't just talk for the regular voters it was for

party activists. He wanted to specifically make a point that the culture war issues needed to be sidelined to get these voters. Dean is about changing the way democrats run campaigns. I happen to think we are stuck in a rut in terms of strategy. We are losing, and we aren't trying anything new either.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. Symbolism.

While I agree that there are a myriad of ways to bring this issue up, this is my take.

When someone mentions the Confederate flag, what comes to mind? Ignorance, imo. Ignorance of it's racially charged significance. Ignorance of how it symbolically represents the divide between the "South" and the "North," to the detriment of America as a whole.

Why would someone have a Confederate flag on their truck? Fear. Fear of whites being marginalized by including others in the political process. Fear of the "Southern way of life" being diluted/ruined by the policies of "the North." Fear of a loss of identity, quite simply. As one who believes that Republicans(and their ilk) are motivated by a fear of all things different, I believe that Confederate flag-wavers are falling victim to the same ideology. This fear also manifests itself as racism.

By using the symbolism of the Confederate flag, Dean is trying to take a whack at the ignorance and fear of some Southern white voters. Ignorance of the fact that they're cutting their own throats by supporting the policies of Republicans, both economically and socially. Fear of the idea that supporting Democratic ideals, such as health care and racial harmony, will bankrupt the country fiscally and morally; and be a negative instead of a positive.

Living in the Northwest, I don't have a complete grasp on exactly how the Confederate flag weaves its way through the consciousness of a Southerner. For some it is probably only regional pride. For others it is racism. And for still others, it is both. It is obviously a very politically charged issue with many facets. Was Dean being racist by using it? Absolutely not. Is the Confederate flag such a politically charged symbol that it is difficult to have a national discussion on it's import without ruffling some feathers? Definately. Should all hot-button symbols be taken off the table for national discussion because of the polarizing effect? No. That would lead to an intellectual bankruptcy that this country cannot afford if it is to better itself.

[soleft]

55. This is the litmus test

If Dean can overcome this gaff, I predict he'll get the nomination. This reminds me of Clinton returning to Arkansas, I think it was shortly beore the NH primaries, because the state was executing a man alledged to have mental disabilites. That was a serious pander to the right, and criticized widely. IIRC.

[Classical_Liberal]

112. OK, wanting to get Southern whites to vote class not

culture war is a litmus test. No problem!

[Kahuna]

Do you think that Jackson, Jr. speaks for anyone but..

himself? So what is the point of posting a banner that Jackson Jr. accepts what Dean says? Who cares? Why should what Jackson Jr. thinks mean anything to me? Jesse Jackson is a pampered young man who did not live through the civil rights struggles that his father and I lived through. He cannot connect with me because he has not seen what I have seen and he has not experienced what I have experienced. That boy is young enough to be my son.

[KG]

2. bummer, dude.

multiple flame wars are so much more fun. :(

maybe i'll actually do something productive today... :)

[quinnox]

3. I think this means the end of the Dean/Clark pairing...

as well as any other candidate running. Clark condemned Dean's remarks in a statement, as did almost all the other major candidates running.

Anyone disagree?

[wyldwolf]

12. Yeah, I kinda disagree... Clark made a statment but...

...he took the highroad. Clark said:

"Every Democratic candidate for president needs to condemn the divisiveness the Confederate flag represents."

In other words, he wasn't judging Dean, but did say Dean should condemen what that flag represents.

[Fact_based]

4. I am a so-called lurker

I use to post in 2002 and in my opinion it seemed that people here were unwilling to handle the realities of America. I warned you guys that the democratic message was not apetizing for minorities the way it once was with the democratic elected officials comprising and bending on issues relevant to our community. Reading over those other threads and the way Dean sympathizers defend his remark is digusting. Perhaps your ancestors were not slaves, perhaps your ancestors were not lynched, but there is zero tolerance in my mind for anyone who celebrate in any way form of fashion, slavery. You can dance around what the flag means, but its hateful and for any democrat to want to lay in bed with hatemongers is unmentionable. I tried to ignore his other flaps but Dean will now get my full effort to be defeated by any means necessary.

[Pocho]

18. WELCOME TO DU Fact_based

[LTR]

27. Welcome aboard, Fact_based! (and my $.02 on Dean)

First off, I am a Clark supporter. But If Dean is the Dem nominee, I will vote for him.

The flag statement, I feel, was taken out of context. Sure, it was stupid, but it should not be looked at in such a black-and-white (so to speak) way.

What Dean is trying to say is that he wants to appeal to everyone. If he was to appeal only to non-morally flawed people, then he would receive a very small number of votes. The flag statement was stupid, but as the bible says, "hate the sin, love the sinner." Let's bring everyone to our side, then work on the mending and the rejection of negative feelings and racist symbols (easier said than done, perhaps).

The Confederate flag should not be held as a cultural symbol, and it definitely does not belong on a state building. To many, it is as negative a symbol as the schwastika is to Jews. Should it be displayed in a museum or historical display? Yes, definitely, for we have to show what it meant at a particular point in time, what it symbolized, and how we have overcome it.

I do deplore those candidates who use this as yet another opportunity to trash another potential nominee. All it does is give Bushco more ammo for the guns. That is the most obscene thing about this. That is one thing I like about Clark. He doesn't feel the need to stoop to their level.

[DemExpat]

37. Clark hasn't disappointed me yet....hope he keeps

up not stooping to a lower level.

:kick:

DemEx

[Paschall]

39. Welcome (back), Fact_based

Could we get a little distance on this issue?

I haven't thrown my support behind any Dem candidate, so I hope you'll permit me trying to explain how I see Dean's comments.

I think Dean was addressing--as Congressman Jackson suggests--the white working poor in the South. I happen to know a few of those folks, and I think it's unfair to slam them all with the label racist (even if they sport a Confederate flag decal), just as it's obviously mistaken to label all Republicans (even if they voted for Shrub) neo-conservatives.

People who have little else to cling to attach themselves to symbols, like the Confederate flag, without really understanding much about them, or questionning them. (Isn't that why Shrub's approval ratings skyrocketed after 9/11?)

Or to turn the situation around, let me tell you how stunned I am to see African-Americans sporting "traditional" African clothing in the middle class neighborhoods of the South. I think I understand fully what that clothing means in that context, what it means to Black identity. But why am I stunned? Because I see that clothing everyday in the streets of Paris. Many, many of those who wear it are Muslims from sub-Saharan Africa; that is the clothing they wear everyday in their African homelands. Some of these populations--depending on their origin-- are extremely patriarchal and discriminatory to women. In fact, it is often among these populations that we find forced marriages of very young teenage girls and "ritual genital mutilation" (which, yes, do occur even in France though they are punishable by law). So those trappings and celebrations of Black identity--adopted in tony neighborhoods of Black America--inevitably bring to mind a horrific kind of oppression these communities tolerate within themselves. (In the French context--which is too complicated to explain here--wearing "traditional" clothing, whether it be North African or sub-Saharan, is interpreted as an act of communitarisme, a self-ghettoization and "refusal" to integrate into the larger community, the Republic, where all citizens are equal. But that's really a subject for another thread.)

I'm not sure that makes any sense, but I hope you'll catch my drift--that symbols are not always what they appear to be to those on the outside. In other words, not all Confederate flag decals plastered on pick-ups by poor whites are "celebrations" of slavery, any more than colorful turbans, tunics and wrap-around dresses are "celebrations" of oppressive tribal society.

[ldf]

139. welcome to du, fact_based

but look at it like this....

YOU do not get to decide what the flag means to others. it may mean something to you, and i understand what you think it represents. i also abhor the flag.

but there are others who do not feel that way.

i am filled with disgust everytime the bible is used to push agendas. being raised in a fundamentalist religion, i know exactly what the fundies believe, and are pushing.

but i also know there are some good people out there that use it for their personal journey, and are not trying to cram it down everyone else's throat.

you say there is no comparison? how about "god hates fags"? there are a lot of fundies out there that would never say it, but agree with it in their hearts.

there is a lot of hate being promoted by bible thumpers. but all believers of the bible are not pushing hate.

i think dean is identifying those who do think of the confederate flag in a historical perspective, and is targeting them. i doubt very seriously that he even wants the KKK/aryan nation vote. no matter what he does, he won't get it. which is fine with me.

edit for clarification.

[w4rma]

143. Slavery wasn't the only (nor, IMHO, the primary) reason for the Civil War.

IMHO, the primary reason was Republican economic policy which favored North-Eastern big buisnesses and the monopolies/oligopolies of the time (Standard Oil, Railroad tycoons, bankers/moneylenders) over Southern farms and smaller buisnesses. The North-Eastern carpetbaggers who came down to the South to buy up whatever they could at fire-sale prices and rip folks off after the war, didn't help North-South relations either.

That said, yes the Confederate flag was hijacked by the Klu Klux Klan and other racist groups. Yes, the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism to many people. IMHO, it would be best to try and remove this racist and divisive meaning from this flag and replace it with another, such as heritage. Talking about the economic reasons that the Civil War was fought will also help replace that meaning with a more productive one.

[JNelson6563]

5. I haven't seen swarms like these

outside of horror movies. Thanks for trying to reign it in Skinner. With the cannibalism around here lately I just can't send folks to DU anymore and that is a shame. I always have all the info on latests stories, people ask my how I know all this...I now just tell 'em "on the net" and maybe send direct link to story.

You must be a bit disheartened to see this happening on your forum. DUs first Dem Prez. primary, what an eye-opener!!

Julie

[Fact_based]

23. thanks

Getting worried though being that a guuy who cant say the confederate flag should be removed from any state capitol is the best choice to lead the most progressive party? Dean was in my consideration but I ve honestly lost any pizzaz i felt for him. Personally whenever i see one of those decals on cars I want to open a can of whoop ass on the person who so arrogantly flaunts their hatred :) vent vent and here in ATL metro they are very plentiful

[wyldwolf]

6. Well, then, as I said last night in one of the locked threads...

I don't think Dean is a racist although the charge has been made by some in the past based on his statements on affirmative action and his position on the death penalty.

Paul Wellstone declared the Vermont plan to ship nuclear waste to Sierra Blanca, as "environmental racism."

But all this is open to interpretation. It wasn't blatant and some cry racism if you look at someone the wrong way.

The problem Dean will have with his confederate flag comments is that they are on the heels of the Rush Limbaugh ESPN flap (Dean called for him to be fired) and the Trent Lott comments are still fresh in many minds.

Republicans feel that Limbaugh and Lott were treated unfairly.

It is the right who will have a field day with this. They will be calling for Dean's head. And they will dig for more - anything - from Dean's past that even looks like racism.

Sure, supporters of other candidates have claimed that Dean is the one the GOP wants to run, so the question could be asked, "Why would the right try to bring Dean down if they think he is the most beatable by Bush?"

Their desire to make a point and hold Dean up as an example of "racism on the left" will be too tempting to pass up.

Dean's handlers need to work overtime on this one.

[bearfartinthewoods]

16. it wasn't racist but it also wasn't necesssary

he could have made the same move, the same outreach without the line about the flag (and imho, the pick-up truck too). adding the confederate flag to the mix was just plain dumb and devisive as witnessed by DU. the strategy is good but his ham-handed manner
is really starting to be a distraction.

[Kahuna]

46. I don't think Dean is racist either. I just think he is ...

too clueless, based upon his limited exposure to minorities to govern as president. Govenor of Vermont was a perfect job for him.

And imagine how the Deanies would howl in disgust if - say- Lieberman had said the same thing. They would be demanding that he quit the race right now!

[retyred]

117. Why would the right try to bring Dean down

That's going to be the question most of us should watch, how hard the right presses Dean on this issue.

By right they should blast him to death for his remark because of Lott and Rush as hypocritical, but on the other hand if they feel he is the best candidate for bush to beat, they would blast him lightly then go away.

Say what you will I think the right does want Dean to be the nominee for a lot of reasons and as was mentioned here before some of what Dean has said before will come out to bite him even more.

I for one will be watching how the right plays this.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[wndycty]

7. I have not and will not criticize Dean on this. . .

. . .however I want to raise a few issues:

1) Why do Dean supporters expect people not comment or bash Dean on this issue when Dean and his supporters have used any and every opportunity to bash other candidates for sticking their foots in their mouths?

2) What happens if guys with Confederate flags show up at Dean rallies? How does he handle it? Does he welcome them? Does he ask them to leave?

3) How are are we (Blacks) supposed to react? To many of us it is the equivalent to the Nazi flag (you can tell me it isn't, but more importantly you cannot tell me how to feel).

4) Does he run the risk of alienating southern whites who might be offended by the stereotype?

ON EDIT:

5) Since my Congressman, Rep. Jackson, has defended Dean, are we (Blacks) expected to just give him a pass? Are we allowed to disagree with my Congressman (who I am a big supporter of).

[Fact_based]

15. love jesse jr

but yea, i am sure 30+ other members of the cbc oppose him. Of the none blk candidates to me dean was the straight talker and would really nail bush but he is trying to be all things to all people and i am a bit more upset than you, I am appalled that Dean would be willing to accept the ignorance of the people with the confed flags on the back of their cars. He should be trying to uncover for them how the well to do conservative anglos play on their fears in order to prosper. In reality they have nothing in common with their allies in the main house.

[wndycty]

20. In reality. . .

. . .Dean made a mistake, but it is excusable, very excusable. In the long run it should not be held against him. However its funny how the Dean supporters expect everyone to just let this stand. In many ways its as if they are telling Blacks not to be offended by the flag and southern whites not to offended by the stereotype that they all wave the Confederate flag.

[Eloriel]

60. Actually, Fact_based, that is EXACTLY what he's doing

with one exception (for now):

I am appalled that Dean would be willing to accept the ignorance of the people with the confed flags on the back of their cars. He should be trying to uncover for them how the well to do conservative anglos play on their fears in order to prosper. In reality they have nothing in common with their allies in the main house.

His comment is intended to draw people in and get them to listen to why the Democratic Party is better for them instead of further alienate them.

Here's his whole speil on this issue -- it's an economic message, taken from the DNC Winter Meeting speech:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)


I've heard him say this a number of times in his stump speech. AND, when he came to Atlanta, he DID talk race to his mostly white audience -- in a thoughtful, moving but very characteristically direct way. I was in tears. Afterwards, at the fundraiser, his college roommates, two blacks and an Italian, introduced him.

If people are seizing on this ONE remark, they're missing it.

I frankly wish he'd not have used that term, but he did. It certainly gets the attention of those whom he's addressing, doesn't it? It does NOT either legitimize nor sanction the Confederate flag, it just recognizes its existence ----- in order to go on and talk about the things that they absolutely have in common with ALL Democrats. And believe me, the discussion against racism isn't far behind, and isn't left out.

Eloriel

[JNelson6563]

72. Check your PM El!

:-)

[Kahuna]

141. Dean said bush should be sent packing for his University...

of Michigan opposition to their Affirmative Action program. Now we find out that Dean has also opposed Affirmative Action.

They guy cannot be trusted.

He represents the "Democratic" wing of the Demcratic party? NOT! Nice words. Too bad his actions suggest otherwise.

[MGKrebs]

63. "Why do Dean supporters expect

people not comment or bash Dean on this issue when Dean and his supporters have used any and every opportunity to bash other candidates for sticking their foots in their mouths?"

What does that mean? Are Dean supporters just supposed to shut up and not respond to the criticism? Every other candidate has supporters that respond to criticism.

[Karenina]

8. Reading those threads

I am DUMBSTRUCK by the obvious inability to read a remark in its ENTIRETY or to digest a comment IN CONTEXT!
Frankly, I am not offended by Dr. Dean's reference at all as he is 100% correct. Conferderate flag wavers DO, in fact, need to realize where their interests truly lie. This is all so bizarre!

[wndycty]

9. How come. . .

. . .we are expected to read this quote in its entirety but when Gen. Clark makes a statement we can just believe the sound bite. You know the Iraq flip flop that wasn't. Oh thats right, there are different standards for the two candidates.

[wyldwolf]

14. Kind of like all those overblown threads on Clark and his Bush comments?

Without framing those words in their proper context, (mostly) Dean supporters on DU, and Dean himself, gang tackled Clark as a Bush enabler.

I agree that Dean's comments were out of context, but I consider this flack Karma.

[wndycty]

21. Exactly!!!!

I understand what Dean was trying to say, but I am not going to feel that he does not deserve to be bashed a little. Have he and his supporters been nearly as understanding with other candidates?

[MGKrebs]

83. So now we are going to leverage this into

an attack on Dean supporters?

I think I have been very understanding of other candidates. And I would not try to deny anyone their choice to criticise Dean. But I may choose to respond. Is that somehow "not understanding'?

[wyldwolf]

96. It's karma, my friend...

...if you've stayed out of the Dean/Clark flame fests, good for you.

But Deanies were sickeningly judgemental over Clark's comments on Bush.

[SaveElmer]

22. Exactly Right !

Dean has been making this comment for months. It's meaning is clear to anyone who is willing to listen. In fact, all one has to do is read Dr. Dean's entire comment to see what the meaning is. But in a PATHETIC attempt to score points against the candidate that is eating their lunch, the rest of the Democratic contenders start acting like reporters for Fox news - you know - distorting facts, taking things completely out of context. All this has done is induced me to send in more money to Deans campaign. And I am getting to the point where if any of these other jokers who are trying to score points with this gets the nomination, I won't vote, because it will be proof to me the political system is irretrievably broken and is no longer worth being involved in.

[wndycty]

25. Sort of like. . .

. . .the Clark is a Republican thing that Dr. Dean and his supporters trumpeted.

[SaveElmer]

30. Show me one comment where Dean said Clark was a Republican

Up until now I had been impressed with Clark. Would have definitely been my second choice. I suppose in his case one can chalk this up to political naivete and inexperience.

[wndycty]

33. Here you go

This is from the New Republic, but it was widely reported.

-snip-
An eloquent and admirable statement of his own epistemological biases. Unfortunately, Dean isn't nearly as generous to others as he is to himself. In his next breath, he blasted Wesley Clark this way,

You've got a lot of establishment politicians now surrounding a general who was a Republican until 25 days ago, voted for Ronald Reagan, voted for Dick Nixon, supported the war last October in Iraq, although he's opposed it, I thought eloquently, since that time. ... Again, a good guy, very qualified, but he was a Republican until 25 days ago, and I think that's gonna be hard to swallow for a lot of Democrats.
-snip-

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=784

[wyldwolf]

34. Here is another - New York Post...

"Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean yesterday blasted new 2004 candidate Wesley Clark as "a Republican until 25 days ago" who has become the "desperation" candidate for establishment Democrats. "

"What you see in the Wes Clark candidacy is somewhat of a desperation by inside-the-Beltway politicians," Dean told the CBS program "Face the Nation."

"You've got a lot of establishment politicians now surrounding a general who was a Republican until 25 days ago, voted for Ronald Reagan, voted for Dick Nixon, supported the war last October."

He contended that Clark's backers, many of them closely allied to former President Bill Clinton, who has praised Clark to the skies, are seeking to be "Republican-lite."

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:_0uGL0tmLAUJ:www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/6773.htm+Dean+Clark+republican+25+days+ago&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[wndycty]

36. It should be noted. . .

That. . .Clark also voted for Clinton twice and Gore once. He also campaigned for and contributed to Erksine Bowles who ran against Libby Dole. If anything Clark was an independent. I challenge anyone who calls Clark a Republican to tell me one thing that Clark has done for Republicans that he has not done for Democrats.

[Kahuna]

50. What?!?!? Of course Dean said Clark was a republican...

He went out of his way to do it on both, "Face the Nation" and "The Today Show." He also has repeated that in various stump speeches. Quote..."until 25 days ago, Wesley Clark was a republican..." After Clark's voter registration revealed that Clark was a registered Independent, not one word of retraction from Dean. Not one.

[NashVegas]

82. Would You Take the Word of a Non-Clark Supporter?

Dean had said something along the lines of "Clark was a Republican up until 25 days ago," and I think, "he's still one now."

Shortly after that it was documented that Clark's status as a Democrat had still not yet been confirmed via registration.

While I've seen nothing that proved Clark was a Republican until his declaration, I didn't see anything at that time that disproved it, either.

[wndycty]

89. Which would most likely mean. . .

. . .he was an independent, not a Republican.

[Code_Name_D]

153. But Clark has had activites withen the Republican party.

Clark was asked to, and accepted, to give a Key Note speach to a Promonet Republican Dinner shortly following Lincon's Day. (The Republicans rescedualed the event to cater to Clark's sceduel.) In the speach, he gave Bush and the PNAC gain glowing prase.

Clark then did fundrasing for the Republican party.

Clark was a lobiest for Henery Kisinger

Clakr even attempted to run on a Republican ticket, but was rebufed. All this took place AFTER the 2000 election. Long after he had opertunites to vote for Clintion. And done so WHILE he was an independint.

[wndycty]

164. And tell me

One thing Clark did for the Republicans that he has not done for the Democrats.

[Code_Name_D]

170. Tell me why that maters?

If Clark did the same thing for the Democrats, than dosn't that make him into a dubble agents? Some one neather side can trust?

I pointed out his activites withen the Republican party. Just becase you do not have a problem with it, dosn't mean others do not.

And it is amusing to watch Clark supporrers critisies Dean for his conffederate flag comment (taken out of context, as usualy) while at the same time defending Clark's own coments to PNAC. Some would call that hypocracy.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hieronymus]

38. Of course

you're right. A Democrat cannot win the south at the rate they're going.
The republicans use the issue as a red flag and yet they are the racists. The Democrats are doing exactly what the cons want. :kick:

[noiretextatique]

150. i have to agree with you, karenina

i hadn't read the quote in its entirety yesterday, and i got caught up in a thread about those happy, fun-loving slaves in the innocent confederacy :eyes: however, i can't say i have a problem with this quote either.

[He loved Big Brother]

10. I'll say what I said in another thread

I remember him saying it back in spring, followed up with "I want their votes beause their kids don't have health insurance or adequate schooling either." (note the either, meaning he wasn't working for just Democratc families.)

Hilarious how they try to spin this, when you look at the entire context of these words when has spoken them on the campaign trail.

(And, as stupid as it is, people are allowed to display whatever flag they choose to as part of their freedom of speech.)

This flag rightly has NO impact on Dean's desire for the children of those who wave it to be healthier and more literate. Thankfully, he has made this point very clear.

And in response he has received an uproar.

Ah well. I gave $25 last week to the bat. After reading and listening to all these desperate Dean-hating spinners, I went ahead and donated another $25.

Democrats need to start attacking Bush on all fronts, with the same venom they muster up whenever they go after Dean. Until they do, their opinions hold no validity to me.

It's funny how some candidates who don't have time to attend voting sessions can always, somehow, find the time to issue reponses to whatever Dean does. It's funny how they think Dean is their worst nightmare/worst enemy, and not Bush...

Well, it's not really that funny. :(

I wonder where all this newfound energy came from, and where it's been hiding all this time!!

But, more importantly, why is it now being unleashed against someone LOGICAL ENOUGH to think, "Gee, perhaps struggling working class families with children aren't any less deserving of adequate resources and funding just because they happen to display a Confederate flag on their bumper".

Logic! Brilliance!

We must put a stop to it!!! (sarcasm)

[Kahuna]

53. Wait a minute. Your quote is out of context....

"I want their votes beause their kids don't have health insurance or adequate schooling either...

Who is their? Who was he referring to? Can you help us out here?

[He loved Big Brother]

99. "their" being

the Confederate-flag-sporting southerners who voted for Bush.

[wildmanj]

11. Dean

The NORTH won the Battle---The SOUTH done won the war---if you dont believe it just look at the republican party----time for the Democrats to get rid of so many personal agenda's and stick to some common agenda's like jobs that we can rally around and kick their A@@--what say you?

[quinnox]

13. Should the Dem party be the party of the confederate flag?

I would like to hear from Dean supporters on this question.

[He loved Big Brother]

17. Again

This flag rightly has NO impact on Dean's desire for the children of those who wave it to be healthier and more literate.

[Classical_Liberal]

43. No, and why would you think so?

It's pretty obvious focusing on economics is not an endorcement of the flag.

[He loved Big Brother]

98. I agree

That was my point as well.

[wyldwolf]

19. Karma

This is just like the overblown threads on Wesley Clark and his Bush comments. Without framing those words in their proper context, (mostly) Dean supporters on DU, and Dean himself, gang tackled Clark as a Bush enabler to gain a political advantage.

Not to mention the constant retreaded but baseless accusations that Clark is war criminal and worked for Henry Kissinger.

I agree that Dean's comments were out of context, but I consider this flack Karma.

I'm just glad Clark took the highroad in his comments on Dean and the flag. He has shown himself to be the candidate with the most class - again.

[JNelson6563]

28. that's because of your retaliation doctrine

you love the stuff. Sad.

I see supporters of other candidates bash Dean, twist his words, lie, pretend ignorance on a topic there are dozens of threads on and start yet another *ahem* and guess what I do about it?

Nothing. Do I "get them back"? Do I lurk around positive threads on their candidates and lob negative crap? Do I hit candidate bashing threads half a dozen times to make sure the brawls live on?

No to all of the above. How about you?

Julie

[wndycty]

29. So will you repudiate Dean for calling Clark a Republican. . .

:kick:

[wyldwolf]

32. Of course she won't... or maybe she will now...

... now that Dean is in a flack himself.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

61. Huh?

What exactly are you talking about?

Vocal obnoxious minority? Just because we want consistency here? And what little pack are you talking about?

[wyldwolf]

67. She's talking about the little pack that disagrees with her...

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

75. Talk about paranoia

:kick:

[JNelson6563]

91. it's called "observation" actually

until today I hadn't actually observed you as much of a pack-participant. Either your kickin' up your level of participation or I simply never noticed it before.

Regardless, I think I'll be signing off GD till ater the primaries. LBN doesn't have nearly as much shit-slinging and cannibalism and we sure as hell don't have ANY of this nonsense in the Stock Watch thread.

Civil dialogue. A beautiful thing.

Julie

[wndycty]

94. Shit slinging. . .

. . .please tell me what shit I have slung in the last 24 hours. If I notice something and point it out and others agree with me I am a "pack-participant?" I am just pointing out an inconsitency with Dean supporters.

[Skinner]

95. Both of you, please cut it out.

Thanks.

[wyldwolf]

31. Julie, karma.

The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny.

What goes around comes around.

[Robb]

26. All this says to me

...is that an experienced staff does not always fulfill the promise of zero error.

Stupid speechwriting, period. Written by a staffer who doesn't get the anger that flag stirs up. And, more concerning, possibly vetted and approved by a candidate who also doesn't get it.

Will I not support Dean because of it? No. It's a speech, not a policy action. But it suggests that the Dean campaign is not the well-oiled machine we all like to think it is.

My mind is still unmade. :)

[Cornus]

40. Stupid speechwriting...

...wasn't involved in this one. My understanding is that it was just an off the cuff remark made in a telephone interview.

[Eloriel]

68. Not off-the-cuff at all

Here's his stump speech language:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

He means exactly what he says. It's an ECONOMIC message. Populist if you prefer.

And he DOES talk about race and racism when he comes to the South -- I know because I was in the audience when he came to Atlanta and did just that, in a very moving and direct, sensible way.

Eloriel

[Kahuna]

56. A "speechwriter?" How do you know that a speech...

writer wrote that? I suppose a speechwriter told him to say he was a metrosexual too? :eyes:

[Robb]

105. Because I'm not naive

Campaigns hire writers. They are often very talented. This is a good thing. What, did Dean write the speech on the back of an envelope during a train ride? :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I Was Reluctant To Post In This Thread Because Of The

tone the discussion of this topic has taken....


I don't think Dean is a racist.... That's plain silly to suggest....

He misspoke... His words were misconstrued.....


What frustrated me was that some folks made a sophistic defense of "states rights" and the Confederate flag giving the Confederate flag and "states rights" new meaning...

Don't take my word for it .... Go to any college campus and ask any historian or political science profeesor who is a centrist or to the left of that what the flag and "states right" represent and mean in their historical and cultural context....

The confederate flag was the flag that the soldiers of the antebellum south carried into war.....Many were conscripts.... Most misguided.... But one hundred forty years of hinsdight informs us of the perniciousness of their cause and most folks who fly that flag today are aware of that fact too....

In fact, the flag was pretty much dormant as a state symbol until the Civil Rights era began and then certain states like South Carolina resurrected it as a symbol of opposition to African American enfranchisemnt...

The Confederate flag is a big F U to African Americans.....

Theodore Bilbo, George Wallace, and Strom Thurmond invoked "states rights" when they opposed integration.... They contended it wasn't "negras" they opposed but the heavy hand of Washington pushing for their enfranchisement....

For staking out this position I was called ignorant.... Well if that's being ignorant I'm the happiest fool in America....

Peace

11-3-03

Brian

[farmbo]

42. Are we serious about attracting NASCAR Dads...or just kidding?

Here's the actual quote:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.
<snip>

It is not an "endorsement" of the Confederate flag, but a recognition that it is still being used as a symbol by blue collar Southern whites.

We can ignore the poor, working class Southern whites who have been tricked by the GOP into voting against their economic interests during past election cycles, or we can bring them back in to the fold. Our success in this necessary endeavor will depend on whether we will allow our candidates to engage the NASCAR Dads in the language they understand.

Will Dean's 8 month old statement survive the present onslought from the Olde Democratic Thought Police? If the brief history of the Dean campaign/pheneomenom is any indication, he'll come through with flying--red white & blue-- colors.

[Classical_Liberal]

45. Well that is a good point

because most of the Dean critics here are the ones pushing the nascar meme. However, the dlc was only into that meme precisely because it wasn't very substantive offer toward poor whites in the South. They really prefer southern yuppies that like tax breaks for the rich, and less labor regulation.

[mmonk]

44. From a southerner's point of view,

though many in the party's elite have no problem with the comments or just focus on the flag issue, I think Edwards's comments come closest to how I feel (and alot of people from the south).

While I understand that Dean was trying to attract mainly caucasian southerners who may not be well off and may currently be laid off, it makes some negative assumptions. I think it was a big blunder. It was devisive in my opinion.

I loathe the confederate flag and what it stands for (and I'm caucasian). To say we like it as a group is wrong. It represents (whether some admit it or not) slavery and treason against the U.S. (its historical significance). I'm a proud southerner but hardly because of that. Also, saying pick up truck and confederate flag in the same instance appears to conjure up a stereotype (no matter what the intent was) and no, I have nothing against pick ups (I've owned a few myself).

Dean needs to know it comes off as stereotyping (which in itself is a form of prejudice). Though he might not have intended it, he probably created a wedge issue that may cost him votes in southern states.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. It didn't make any assumption about Southerners as a group

He referred specifically to those southern whites that support the rebel flag.

Having said that the majority of white voters in the South do support it, without a doubt. The majority of voters in the South support it without a doubt. It wins everytime it has been put to referendum in the past 3 yrs.

They are an important group to talk about even if you are not amoung them.

[mmonk]

54. It may in South Carolina

but not so sure in North Carolina or Virginia. Again, you say without a doubt. Are you making an assumption?

[Classical_Liberal]

62. Also in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi

It went down in defeat bigtime. You maybe on to something with states that are getting emigration from the north, Virginia and Florda particularly. I doubt NC is anywhere near that point yet.

[mmonk]

73. based on an assuption

that they haven't had enough enlightened people move in yet? NC, while having some that would support that flag, I don't think they are in the majority like those in deeper south states. Besides, I live in the triangle where there are a lot of enlightened , more educated, brilliant people fron other parts of the country that have moved in to show us native born hayseeds how to live (that's sarcasm). No offense.

[Classical_Liberal]

78. Obviously you confederate flag hating southerners don't

care about the issue as much as the ones that love it, or the issue wouldn't have lost in referendum, at least three times. That is not assumption. That is a fact.

[mmonk]

81. It's not a referendum in my state

(that I'm aware of). You are right about one thing though, I don't pay much attention to it. And there are some southerners (though I don't agree with them) that see it as a source of regional pride not associated with its dark side of slavery. South Carolina especially, was literally burned to the ground in an scorched earth strategy as punishment for firing on Sumter. The story of that sort of thing is passed down generation to generation (though it is slowing down).

[robbedvoter]

87. And who counted those votes? Was that Georgia? Strange results there

all around. Cleland and the Dem gov were leading in the polls and then- wham! Diebold reversed it! That's another fact.

[Classical_Liberal]

92. No, that Diebold could have reversed it is an established fact.`

That is why most of us are opposed to BBV. However there is no proof that it actually happened unless you believe in guilty until proven innocent. Polls have been wrong.

[mmonk]

66. But what do most people from other parts of the country think

about when someone brings up the south (answer: poor, uneducated, rebel flag carrying, Gomer Pyle, racist, pick ups with gun racks).

[Classical_Liberal]

69. What people think isn't my problem

. The rebel flag is used successfully as a wedge with working class whites. Are you seriously going to let your state go to Bush just to distinguish yourself from that type of voter?

[mmonk]

84. Perhaps you didn't notice the Wesley Clark logo?

The answer is no, I'll do whatever I can to fight Bush with or without a Clark primary victory.

[Philosophy]

47. This is the same as "Evil-Doers"

We don't need to figure out and address why terrorists and people in other countries hate America, because we are perfect and beyond reproach. So they must just be evil.

We don't need to figure out and address what prompts people to display confederate flags out of a misdirected sense of frustration. The confederate flag is a symbol of pure evil. So they must just be evil.

[forgethell]

76. If I unstand you correctly,

flying a confederate flag is morally equivalent to blowing up 3000 people? I don't think so.

[Philosophy]

144. Totally misunderstood

OK, for those who don't understand rhetoric, what I was trying to say that condemning Dean for refusing to NOT try to get votes from people who fly the confederate flag is equivalent to refusing to hear arguments that try to rationalize the actions of terrorists. You don't want to admit there is anything wrong with our country that compels people to fly the confederate flag or commit acts of terrorism. So therefore you must conclude the confederate flag/terrorism is pure evil and the people who promote them are insane and beyond redemption.

[Skinner]

49. I just posted a poll about this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=634098

[killbotfactory]

51. Dean is just pointing out that repubs have screwed the south

by using wedge politics.

[mmonk]

86. Wedge politics points out nothing but

wedge politics. He certainly won't gain nearly as much as he will lose. Again, he has been taught that's basically what a white southerner is (rebel flags and pick ups, uneducated and laid off, a tad rascist). Sorry, but our population is a little more diverse.

[Classical_Liberal]

121. It is diverse as are most populitions that represent millions

but you're rebel flag hating native southerner is not the majority of voters in my view. In atleast three states the majority of voters in overwhelming numbers wedged pro-repuke pro-rebel flag. Unless I see a win against the stars and bars, I will stick to this assumption.

[mmonk]

137. Its true

I may be a minority in the south as a whole on the flag issue, I wouldn't pretend to know. I do know that some people that do support the flag are neither poor, uneducated, or racist, but (in my opinion shouldn't) think of it in a regional pride type of thing. The mistake these people make is not knowing how offensive it is to minorities and others and not remembering that racist groups use it. The fact some politicos from outside of the region use it, especially given stereotype viewpoints from outside the region, causes consternation from some here in the south. One can only speculate intentions since the confederate flag is not the flag of the poor or laid off.

[Classical_Liberal]

145. But why shouldn't we care about the poor an uneducated in the South

I don't like the yuppyfied dems. I am a wage laborer, not salaried, and I have health problems and view them as being my bane, because they are never interested in making my work environment better, or whether I have health insurance. My health problems make it difficult for me to become a salaried person too. I also think that such people are more sophisticated about hiding their racism, then the poor.

[mmonk]

157. No problem caring about them,

we agree. Poor use of imagery in order to try and make a connection. This was bound to become an issue for him.

[Classical_Liberal]

167. He has always been blunt.

people have always made predictions it would kill him. He is number one in the polls. He shouldn't change strategy unless that changes. I don't believe it will. I like his blunt talk, and was definately impressed by this comment. I don' t understand the sensitivity at all except to observe it is mostly coming from supporters of other candidates, some rather rigid third party types and some suspected freeps. You are a Clark supporter.

[ulysses]

52. of two minds here

On one hand, I think that Howard Zinn has a good point about the confederate flag not really being the issue. We're not doing anything substantive on race if it's all about the symbol, powerful as that symbol is. Maybe I'm desensitized to the damned thing after living here for twelve years, but if it's not on official government property or what have you, I just don't think about it that much. And Dean is correct that those folks' kids need health care and good schools too.

On the other hand, that's one white guy's take on a couple of other white guys' takes on something a lot of other white guys do.

Personally, I want to see more in terms of what Dean has to say positively to the black community.

[robbedvoter]

57. The "context" makes it even worse - "Gore lost because of NRA?"

Here's the quote that provides the context some were asking for:

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

Earth to Dean: Gore won, and it wasn't Charlton Heston, but voting fraud - at least in Tennessee.

[MGKrebs]

59. My turn.

(disclaimer- I am, still, a Dean supporter.)

If I thought Dean was the least bit racist, that is one issue for which I would dump him in a heartbeat. I do not think he is racist.

I saw Dean speak here in September with his African-American college roommates.

Several African-American local politicians have indicated their support to us for Dean.

We have significant African-American participation in the Atlanta volunteer group.

I also think the comment was insensitive. An apology would be appropriate.

Dean is likely not as tuned in to the sensitivities of this issue in the south as he should be/could be/will be. He will either learn and improve from this, or he won't. We shall see.

In the end, I see this as a "demographic generalization" similar to "soccer mom", or "NASCAR dad".

I hate the confederate flag too. It distresses me that it is still on the state flag. But our current governor WON by primarily running on the issue of restoring that symbol to the flag (which the previous governor had trie to remove). He WON. The largest majority of voters in this state voted for him. Therefore, there is a large demographic here that still feels connected to that symbol. We can argue about whether all, or most, or only a few, of those people are racist in their heart. But that argument cannot have any resolution. We would all just be speculating.

[ulysses]

64. right

In the end, I see this as a "demographic generalization" similar to "soccer mom", or "NASCAR dad".

Generalizations are always dangerous, but the big problem with what Dean said was that he made the racism implicit in the "NASCAR" generalization explicit.

I don't believe that Dean is racist. I don't *think* that he's pandering to southern white racists, although I'm not sure. I think he went tangoing in a symbolic minefield.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. The nascar dad stuff didn't come from Dean either

It came from economically conservative socially liberal DLCers, who only went with that issue because it didn't hurt the pocket books of their real constituancy, corporate America. Frankly they aren't all that interested in nascar dads, and never were, nor did they probably expect to get many. It is there cover to make them look centrist rather than corporate.

Dean is actually offering working class whites a substantive issue of good schools and good paying jobs which is the absolute opposite of the nascar pandering.

[jarab]

85. Anxiously awaiting Dean's position

on pitching horseshoes, eating pork rinds, and his views on country music. And, can he yoyo, ala tricky dick?
...O...

[Classical_Liberal]

65. Look to me it represent the confederacy, and all the bad things

the confederacy stood for, but honesty it is still just a symbol. It isn't substantive civil rights, like the right to a quality education, or desegregation or voting rights. I don't think he should apologize for trying to get those voters. If he doesn't get them there won't be a dem President period. You will be left with Shrub, and all the bad things Shrub represents.

[wyldwolf]

71. You're stating that if Dean doesn't get "those" voters, there won't be...

...a dem president?

If so, that is a very limited statement.

Dean's nomination isn't a given, and Clark already has a better shot at southern voters.

[Classical_Liberal]

79. You're not psychic

so I don't think you can say he has a better shot. I personally am not confident in his political abilities on the stump. He's never been elected to anything. If Clark has any I'll bet he conveniently ignores the issue of the flag once nominated. It is a stupid one in this case. The President doesn't have anything to do with whether if flys over a state house. The state makes laws over what flag flys over their state house.

[wyldwolf]

80. Don't have to be a psychic to know the score...

... just have to look at the scoreboard.

According to Ruy Teixeira, co-author of "The Emerging Democratic Majority," Clark's followers are right to suppose that their man's appeal is demographically broader than Dean's. In a post on the Emerging Democratic Majority blog, he analyzes an October Gallup poll to discern "The Demographics of Clarkism":

"While Clark receives more support than Dean among both men and women, his margin over Dean among women is just 3 points (16 percent to 13 percent), but an impressive 12 points among men (29 percent to 17 percent)," Teixeira points out. "He also beats Dean in every region of the country, but especially in the South (25 percent to 8 percent). Also intriguing is how well he does among low income voters (less than $20,000), clobbering Dean by 26 percent to 5 percent. In fact, Clark bests Dean in every income group up to $75,000. Above $75,000, Dean edges Clark, 26 percent to 25 percent."

[Classical_Liberal]

88. Doesn't matter. He has to win the nomination.

That's all that counts. Lieberman was polling number one until a few months ago. I'll hazard a guess that Clark has name recognition like Lieberman. Lord knows people are basing their judgement on a long record of public appearances on the stump and in the debates. This is also not a poll of primary and caucus voters. Clark hasn't impressed me as much as Dean. Sorry.

[wyldwolf]

100. But that wasn't the point now was it?

You said Dean needed the voters in question or the Dems would lose in 2004 - implying Dean's nomination was somehow signed, sealed, and delivered.

I proved, at least poll wise, that Clark's support in the south overwhelm's that of Dean.

Clark? Name recognition? When he entered the race, he had some of the worst name recognition of the entire dem candidates.

I don't care that Clark hasn't impressed you as much as Dean has. 25% to 8% in the south, dude, Clark v. Dean.

[Classical_Liberal]

102. Well I didn't mean to imply Dean had it signed and sealed

I actually meant any candidate would have to get these voters including Clark which would have been clear from the rest of the paragraph.

I think both candidates could win it and would win the Presidency. If you weren't disposed toward Clark I doubt those polls would mean much to you. I think Clarke's will go down, though I think he may well win many southern states.

[Code_Name_D]

163. Indeed: And dose the south not have the right to redemption? n/t

:kick:

[robbedvoter]

90. If my candidate legitimized the flag - I'd be outta there in a NY minute!

ABB may apply, but for me to justify the KKK flag just because I committed to a campaign would be a huge sell-out.
Some of you may have noticed, the confederate symbol transcended the South. Everywhere in the world, white supremacists of every stripe proudly display this "innocuous " symbol.
The swastika used to be a very beneficial rune. Some bad people used it and it's now removed from the runic alphabet.
Don't think that if dean gets nominated, Roveco will not jump on this with both feet (media in tow). Consistency is not their forte!

[imax2268]

93. I don't have a problem with

his comments...it's time people wake up and forego this "PC" talk crap...we should look past this statement and focus on the big picture...Getting BushCo inc. out of office...

I think...that what he said will have no affect...I believe he will do just fine in the south...

Just my honest opinion...

[kentuck]

104. Perhaps Dean "misspoke", but so did a lot of DU'ers....

I personally do not think Dean is a racist but he should have realized what a "hot-button" issue the confederate flag can be...
But, as others have noted, it is rare to see a confederate flag in the South. And, this is just my opinion, many of the whites that stick the flag on their truck windows do not do so out of racist reasons, but believe somehow this is a statement of independence and shows them to be "rebels" against society. They do not understand the pain it can cause to others with a "different" historical perspective.

The bottom line is that there is not a dimes worth of difference in Democrats in the North and the South. The Democrats in the South do tend to be more apathetic and the Repubs in the South tend to be more aggressive, Newt Gingrich style. But that is the reason the Democratic Party does not win the South. We need to find a way to appeal to those apathetic voters, who are usually more passionate about their politics, in my opinion, than voters in the North. But I don't think trying to appeal to the Confederate flag is the way to appeal to the voters in the South. Neither do I think trying to appeal to race car drivers is the way.

[Misinformed01]

107. Excuse me, but how would the sensitive

DUers have Dr. Dean describe the folks in pickup trucks with confederate flags in them?

Frankly, when I heard his comment, I didn't think he was being a racist, I thought he was describing people in pickup trucks with confederate flags on them.

Liberal political junkies whine about wimpy candidates, while they are acting like wimps.

I might be wrong, but I have often wondered if the GD rules weren't changed because the administrators of DU were tired of getting messages saying, "So and so was MEAN to me! So and so is a racist because s/he mentioned confederate flags! This person put down my candidate! Another person was mean to the peace marchers!"

Ridiculous.

[Democrats unite]

108. Since the other thread I posted in got locked...

I will post this here.

"They can take that rebel flag and stick it where the sun don't shine!." And that goes for Dean and any other traitor in the Democratic party.


on edit: the rebel flag means one thing and one thing only hatred of other people. Think about that.

[Misinformed01]

110. Dean's a traitor for describing

people in pickup trucks with confederate flags on them?

hoookaaayy....

I am going to log off DU and call the Waffle House for brunch reservations, put some Randy Travis on the jukebox and pretend like I have never seen this thread.

[bigtree]

113. dean was pandering to racist republicans

I wonder what they have to do with a democratic primary?

[Kamika]

109. Dean made a big big mistake

Im a Deanie but I cant pretend like nothing.

That quote of his was extremely racist. And more or less meant
"those guys you know who are inbred illiterates"


I hope he'll recover

[Classical_Liberal]

111. It wasn't racist.

that is just plain off the wall. There are people in those areas who vote over issues like the confederate flag rather than their economic interests. Just ask the NAACP. This has been the case since resonstruction. Describing this condition is sure as hell not racism. That is just plain goofy.

[mopinko]

115. so, are we not allowed to mention race at all?

someone always takes it the wrong way. GROW UP!
civil rights, like abortion, has been used to hi-jack the votes of ordinary people, who, without these emotional appeals, would be solidly democratic. i whole heartedly agree with dean, we need to peel this voters away from rethuglicans. these issues are the wool over their eyes. we are not going to give up our own personal commitments to civil rights. bubba needs to wake up and see which side his bread is really buttered on. if howard can do it, more power to him. let's just step over all these red herrings and talk about the common good and the future, which is what government should be about.

[Kamika]

116. its the words he used

Its like he would have said..

I want to be the candidate for those black guys that listens to that rap music

Or

I want to be the candidate for those yellow people that talks funny and cook noodles

etc etc etc

[Classical_Liberal]

120. You are the one doing the stereotyping then,

because he didn't use the word "white".

Read the quote again from the original post in this thread.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks,"


Note the word "white" isn't in there.

[Kamika]

126. But THATS what he MEANT

because EVERYONE knows those guys are white

[Classical_Liberal]

129. So what is your point?

He didn't use the word all either? Or are you psychic in those matters too? There are white guys in the South that wedge on this issue. There are so many of them that they actually affect the out come of elections. I want them to stop it! I don't think I am racist because of it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

114. Ironic that all the whining from other campaigns came AFTER

Jesse Jackson Jr. endorsed Howard Dean. I think the other campaigns are only trying to create an issue out of this now because they want to try to prevent Dean from securing the black vote. I think it's really insulting to blacks that some of the Democratic candidates are using typical GOP race baiting as strategy rather than just working hard (as Dean has done) to EARN the votes themselves. Also, Dean has been saying this ever since the DNC Winter meeting speech and anyone who has been following Dean's campaign closely (like anyone who is thinking of or has chosen to support him) has heard him say this plenty of times. And most insulting of all is the fact that some white Democratic candidates and some of their white supporters are behaving as if they think black voters aren't intelligent enough to distinguish the difference between REAL racism and a candidate who is reminding poor white southerners that there is plenty of reason for them to vote Democratic too. It's ridiculous.

[bigtree]

118. I don't think we need to cajole confederate flag-wavers into the party

just for their vote.

I think we should isolate them and marginalize them in our debate.
How? With crushing criticism. Unyielding. No quarter to racists!

When they come out from under their sheets and repudiate the racism underlying their confederate symbol them I will find room to tolerate them.

[Misinformed01]

123. Yeah. That's it. Let's marginalize and isolate

hundreds of thousands of Americans.

That's the way to win an election!

By the way, while you are maginalizing and criticizing these people, I have news for you: they don't care. They aren't on the computer on Sunday morning worrying about what a bunch of limosine liberals think about them.

Go ahead; urge the Democrats to marginalize the Gods, Guns and Nascar crowd. Then you can get a super duper new million megs computer with DSL or cable, and sit on DU and complain for the next five years wondering why Bush is still popular.

[bigtree]

127. God Guns Nascar

Your point is lost on me.

Don't these people always vote republican?

Did Gore get more votes than Bush because the GGN voters voted Democratic? I don't think so.

We could use more minority participation though.

[KaraokeKarlton]

132. Yes, they usually do...BUT

they SHOULD vote Democratic because of the other issues important to them, which are essentially the same as the issues you care about. They vote Republican only because the GOP has successfully convinced them that Democrats want to take their guns away and they use race baiting (just like Dean's opponents are using right now). Democrats could easily get a huge chunk of those votes if they would make the effort to clear up the misconceptions the GOP has planted. Don't push for more gun control because it does nothing to keep guns from criminals. Don't play into race baiting and don't assume that all white southerners who like the Rebel Flag are bigots. Make the effort to talk to those that should be voting Democratic and a lot of them WILL vote Democratic. Ignore the south and the south will ignore your party come voting day.

[bigtree]

136. So you would sacrifice principle for votes

I don't think that's a good way to win an election. What principles would a candidate have left after they appeased all of the racists?

[KaraokeKarlton]

146. You're stereotyping people now

Isn't that the same behavior you're complaining about? You assume that anyone who doesn't despise the Confederate Flag is a racist. That's just not true at all. Dean isn't sacrificing principle by telling poor white southerners they have reason to vote for Democrats.

[Classical_Liberal]

148. How is he sacrificing principle

He didn't say the flag was good. He said that people who liked it needed good jobs and health insurance for their kids. Beside Clinton Carter, and Gore flew the damned thing, so this is extremely goofy.

[Misinformed01]

133. How in the world is my point lost on you?

No, they do NOT always vote "Republican."

How can you suggest that marginalizing a huge group of people is a good campaign strategy?

Just out of curiousity, have you ever lived in the South?

[KaraokeKarlton]

124. Do you even know anyone who has the rebel flag?

Whether in flag, decal, or any other form? Everyone that I've known who likes the flag doesn't like it because they are racists. They like it because they perceive it as "anti-establishment" and view themselves as "rebels". Ironically, just about all the people I've known who has any form of the flag (and a couple of them actually live in NH) also are kind of partial to Skynyrd, Jack Daniels, Southern Comfort, muscle cars, loud motorcycles, hunting rifles and just don't care much for rules and authority. I've also never heard any of those people associate the Rebel flag with racism or slavery. When I lived in Georgia, Mississippi and Florida I never once heard anyone complain about the flag, black or white or otherwise. I hear more about this issue living in New England. This is one of those issues that shows how much the north misunderstands the south.

[bigtree]

131. Do you care about the people who are offended?

What matters more to you. The sanctity of Skynard worship or the feelings of black Americans?

[Ambassador Hope]

135. How come they did not say anything about Clinton flying it

No one will answer that. It was not a big deal. Bill and Hillary attended services honoring it.

I guess you would Clark record in Ark. you may find the same thing with him,

Does dean have it flying at his home like Clinton and Carter. These two small state gov's did, blacks said nothing and they went on to win the pres.

I do not understand the big deal.

Dean is trying to get votes.

[KaraokeKarlton]

140. Are you black?

What do you think offends black Americans more, Howard Dean telling poor white southerners they should vote Democratic or having non-southern white Americans assuming that black voters are too dumb to know what constitutes racism? Do southern blacks even want non-southern whites (or any whites, for that matter) deciding what does or doesn't, should or shouldn't offend them? I know that my black relatives don't. It's better to ask black people what they think and listen than it is to decide what they should and shouldn't think. It's very insulting to deny black people the right and respect to speak for themselves.

[Ambassador Hope]

149. How come you do not say anything about Clinton or Clark

They will try to get it taken down in Ark.

[bigtree]

159. My birth certificate says so

"What do you think offends black Americans more, Howard Dean telling poor white southerners they should vote Democratic or having non-southern white Americans assuming that black voters are too dumb to know what constitutes racism?"

Good line. But it is a straw man. I don't support the flag. I don't support anyone who would pander to Confederate flag wavers. If you, as I presume, a southern black, are ok with the flag then so be it.

I don't think that I should defer to your opinion because I'm not in the South. We've got rebels up here too waving their racist flags.

Good luck with that line.

[KaraokeKarlton]

173. It's not a straw man

I'm not black, but I have black relatives who do live in the south. I've lived in Mississippi, Georgia and Florida.

How, exactly, is Dean pandering to Confederate flag wavers? Listen, every damn one of us, when push comes to shove, has the same core concerns. We're all part of a much larger "race"...the Human Race. I'm sure you've experienced genuine racism in your life plenty of times. Racism is the result of fear and ignorance, meaning a lack of understanding and knowledge of those different than themselves. How do we, as members of the Human Race resolve those problems? Education, communication and looking for some common ground rather than focusing on how we are different. This country has come a long way on civil rights for minorities, especially blacks. Did that happen because everyone stubbornly avoided listening to each other? Now, we can either calm down and talk, listen to each other and realize that as much as we are different, we are also alike, or we can feed into the fear and ignorance that fuels racism, bigotry and bias and prolong the problems associated with those attitudes. I would much rather see someone do something to build the bridges than see those bridges get burned.

[Ambassador Hope]

142. Let us look at W. Clarks state flag

Sorry but the picture would not copy of Clark and the Clinton's home state flag. It is rebel. Has Clark said a thing before he became a democrat, has he register yet to be one of us?

A diamond on a red field represents the only place in North America where diamonds have been discovered and mined. The twenty-five white stars around the diamond mean that Arkansas was the twenty-fifth state to join the Union. The top of four stars in the center represents that Arkansas was a member of the Confederate States during the Civil War. The other three stars represent Spain, France and the United States, countries that had earlier ruled the land that includes Arkansas. Flag adopted

[Classical_Liberal]

128. and Shrub wins again!

Fewer Dems in congress! That will be such a great victory for civil rights over a dumb flag!

[Kahuna]

147. Lemme tell you something. Those confederates are..

staunchly in the GOP column. There is no reaching out to them. The only way to reach out to them is to do what Reagan and Bush did. Signal to them that you will preserve the status quo of white supremacy. Since Dean is not willing to do that (I think), why disenfranchise loyal black voters? Is it worth it to make black voters stay home so that he can get a few confederates in his column? Does that make sense to you? Do the math. Once again, it's a wash. Nothing positive is accomplished. And the bad outweighs the good.

Once again, Dean has done what is perhaps irreparable harm to our party because of his ego. And his insistance that it's all about him.

[Classical_Liberal]

152. I think most just stupidly see it as regional pride.

. I think Blacks will appreciate that he isn't appealing to these voters on white supremecy, but on the economy. Besides if those voters aren't won, they will cancel out the blacks like they did last time with Gore.

[xultar]

119. Did it get ugly last night...Yeah...so ugly

I thought there was an Ann Coulter poltergist or that her evil soul had taken possession of DUers.

Honestly it was a SAD SAD SAD sight.

[Ambassador Hope]

125. Facts about last 2 dem president who were like Dean

They came from small states as gov. Carter and Clinton flew the flag proudly at their houses and no one said a thing.

Dean does not fly it at his house.

He is reaching out for voters.

No one got upset with Carter or Clinton.

We should be worried about issues that count to people.

Clinton had some good quotes on why he honored the flag at special events and the blacks never got mad.

[w4rma]

130. Rep. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[bigtree]

151. JJJ is making excuses for the flag

Not very productive. I'll never accept it as anytning other than a symbol of oppression and Jim Crow. (Thanks Mom and Dad)

To defend the flag is to defend what it stood for then:(succession and treason), and now:(defiance of the federal government, possibly defiance of Civil Rights as Wallace intended)

Notwithstanding the 14th and 15th amendments, the federal government is the primary defender of my liberty.

The flag is an intimidating symbol. It is used to intimidate. The flag should be buried not defended.

"Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol."

I can't see what JJJ is saying here. Most blacks reject this flag. What makes the flag the "current Democratic candidate's historic symbol? That is a stretch.

[Classical_Liberal]

155. If you voted for Clinton and Carter then you accepted the rebel flag

because neither tried to remove it from the state emblem when Governers of Southern States.

[Zomby Woof]

162. the Arkansas flag

Never had St. Andrew's cross on it, the cross on the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (the real name of the flag in question).

[Classical_Liberal]

166. Is the Army of Northern Virgina CSA or USA?

? As I recall that was the army Robert E Lee commanded!

[bigtree]

172. I voted for Clinton but opted for Anderson over Carter

I don't know about efforts to remove the flag from either of those states. I oppose the flag. I think Clinton does also. He certainly rejects the use of the flag to win elections.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002-12-19-clinton-gop_x.htm

Former President Clinton says Republicans are hypocritical for berating Senate Republican leader Trent Lott about his insensitive comments on race.

"How can they jump on him when they're out there repressing, trying to run black voters away from the polls and running under the Confederate flag in Georgia and South Carolina?" Clinton said Wednesday in New York. "I mean, look at their whole record. He just embarrassed them by saying in Washington what they do on the backroads every day."

[CWebster]

134. Was it another pile on Dean?

This is a problem in the grassroots. Clark supporters are very aggressive and resentful, which only increases the defensiveness and resolve of Dean supporters.

Ideally these two candidates should join forces, and not because I care for Clark, but because between them all bases are covered.

[Ambassador Hope]

138. Al Gore's dad flew the flag proudly , dean's dad did not

Dean never support the flag. He is after the vote and winning.

No one that matter support slavery or the civil war.

[doubles]

154. The sad fact is I think Dean just lost the South with that comment....

Both black and white probably will not vote for Dean if he's elected. He pissed off white southerners with the stereotype and he pissed off blacks for an apparent embrace of the flag. That comment is worse than Dukakis appearing in that tank, we need to move on to another candidate. Sorry, no other way to put it.

[madfloridian]

158. You are so wrong on that.

n/t

[Classical_Liberal]

161. If he loses the south I doubt it will have anything to do with this flag

Most voting southerners appear to support the flag whether smart or not, and Dean didn't endorce the flag anyway. He just said that he thought people should vote on economic issues instead of things like the rebel flag. Furthermore both Clinton and Carter were governers of states that actually had this flag on their state house.

You thinking is probably more wishful then commen sense. This is yet more common wisdom(propaganda) for Dean to violate, so oh well.

[Deja Q]

156. Seems like a harmless comment...

Dean just wants to appeal to everybody.

Just how TV tries to appeal to everybody.

Of course, TV dumbs and patronizes everybody down in the process.

How's Dean gonna do it? Promote FTAA to Americans who've lost their jobs due to conditions brought about by NAFTA?!

More power to him if he can win everybody's vote.

The problem is as much what the politician stands for as well as getting the votes needed to make change. Dean's said a lot of good things, but his support of NAFTA and the proposed FTAA worries the hell out of me.

And anybody who wants to support the "corporate status quo" is only supporting the death of America. I hope Dean isn't an example of this.

Still, do you prefer a slow death or a quick one? Bush* is giving us a quick one. Dean'll just slow it down.

[w4rma]

168. Dean is pro-fair trade.

…
HOWARD DEAN: No. What I said-- Well, I'll tell you what I said in a minute. But I'll follow my train of thought here, most briefly. Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal. Here's the problem with free trade, and here's why I support fair trade, and why I want to change all our trade agreements to include human rights with trade, as Jimmy Carter included human rights with foreign policy. I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class. The truth is, the trade union movement in this country built America, not literally-- Well, they did do it literally with the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and things like that. But they built America because they allowed people who worked in factories and mines to become middle class people. And America was the strongest country on earth, and still is, because we have the largest middle class on earth, with democratic ideals. That is, working people in this country, by and large, feel that this is their country, and they have a piece of the pie, and it matters what they think.

Now, if you want trade to succeed, ultimately, we're going to have to create a climate in other countries that are beneficiaries of NAFTA where they can create a middle class with democratic ideals. That means we should not have any free trade agreements, and we should go back and tell the WTO that “you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards.” Here's why. Today, if you run a factory in Iowa-- Let's suppose you spend a million dollars a year disposing of all the waste products that come out that are toxic. You can go to another country and dump all that stuff in the river and on the ground. So America, because we have environmental standards, and we're willing to trade, straight out, free trade, with countries that it's cheaper by a million dollars, before you even get to wages, to do business there, I think that's a big problem. We're essentially saying, “Our environmental laws are strict. It's cheaper for you to go into business someplace lese. Go ahead.” That's the wrong thing to do.

The same with labor standards. I don't know why we should be shipping our jobs offshore when kids can work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a small amount of wages. And isn't that what America fought against 100 years go? Wasn't that the victory of the trade union movement? So it seems to me that my position makes sense. We've gone through 10 years of free trade. We've gotten to a position where we now need to change our trade agreements.
…
HOWARD DEAN: What I would say is, we've gone the first mile. The first decade has worked, for exactly the reasons you say. I don't disagree with the premise of the free traders. I had this discussion with Bob Rubin, and I said, “Here's the problem. We need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we're not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements.” He said, “You're totally wrong. I can't disagree with you more.” I said, “How would you address the problem?” I haven't heard back. You have to deal with this problem. It's a serious problem.

JOE KLEIN: What if they say no?

HOWARD DEAN: Then I'd say, “Fine, that's the end of free trade.”

JOE KLEIN: What do you mean, that's the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries?

HOWARD DEAN: Yes.

JOE KLEIN: So you'd be in favor of tariffs at that point.

HOWARD DEAN: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can't get people to observe human rights, and say that we're going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don't think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We're enabling that to happen. I'm serious.
…
http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

…
{Guy in the audience: “Give ’em hell, Howard!”}

Harry Truman used to say, {when} people used to say, “Give ’em hell, Harry,” he’d say, “I don’t give them hell, I just tell the truth and Republicans think it’s hell.” We need a balanced budget in this country so we’re going to have jobs in America again to invest in America. No Republican president has balanced the budget in 34 years in this country. If you want to trust the federal government with your hard-earned money, you had better vote for a Democrat, because the Republicans can’t handle money. You know, the president’s given a lot of our tax dollars away to big corporations, but I think we better change our policy, because those corporations take our jobs elsewhere. What we need in this country is an investment policy for small businesses. Small businesses don’t pay as well as big businesses, their fringe benefits aren’t as good, but they stay in their own community. We need jobs in America. We need to invest in America. Three trillion dollars. Can you imagine, if we could have taken some of that money, to rebuild our roads and our bridges, and our schools, and broadband telecommunications in the most rural parts of America so they can have information jobs as well, and invest in renewable energy and rebuilding the grid, so we can put people to work, and save the environment, and save our national security? We can do better than this. We need jobs, Mr. President, not empty promises and $3 trillion of our tax money going to your friends who are writing you those $2,000 checks to finance your campaign. We can do better than that.
…
http://www.thestranger.com/2003-08-28/dean_speech.html

…
Governor Dean, about those high earners, the nonpartisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has suggested using revenue from the estate tax as a progressive way to help bolster Social Security. Should wealthy Americans be contributing more to Social Security?

MR. DEAN: What wealthy Americans should be doing is paying their fair share of the payroll tax. Social Security cannot survive -- (scattered applause) -- on its present track. And the solution to that is simply to make wage-earners above $85,000 subject to the payroll tax, and that will cure the Social Security ills, if we can change presidents.

Now, you asked about pensions. A few days ago we were in San Francisco talking to the United Food & Commercial Workers. (Scattered cheers.) A gentleman over here named Larry Allen, who is a produce clerk at Wal-Mart in Henderson, Texas, took two days of his vacation to come to San Francisco for the UFCW forum. When he went back, he was fired for violating the no-solicitation clause.

If you want to protect pensions, the way to do that is to organize. And if you want to organize at places like Wal-Mart, we'd better have card check. We'd better ban mandatory compulsory meetings. We'd better fire the National Labor Relations Board, because that's how you protect working people in this country. (Scattered applause.)

And we ought to have independent pension funds that are no longer controlled by corporations. It would solve two problems. First of all, major corporations going out the door would not be raiding the pension funds in order to try to keep their company afloat. That money doesn't belong to the corporations. It belongs to the people in whose trust it was set aside.

And secondly, it would contribute to portable pensions so that if you move from job to job to job, you still get your pension. You don't have to worry about vesting anymore. We need complete pension reform in this country, and we need to start by making unions strong enough to demand it.
…
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/candidates_forumtranscript.cfm

Guest Post by Howard Dean

The post below is from Governor Howard Dean. You can check out the crossposting and commentary at www.blogforamerica.com and read more about Howard Dean at www.deanforamerica.com. Thanks!-- Matt, Zephyr and Nicco, Dean Internet Team

posted by { Zephyr Teachout } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:58 PM } to { presidential politics } { 31 comments }

It’s been a busy day, but it’s great to blog here on Larry Lessig’s blog.

I’ll be writing all week, but if there’s a day I can’t make it, Joe Trippi, my campaign manager, will fill in for me. Thank you Professor Lessig for inviting me.

The Internet might soon be the last place where open dialogue occurs. One of the most dangerous things that has happened in the past few years is the deregulation of media ownership rules that began in 1996. Michael Powell and the Bush FCC are continuing that assault today (see the June 2nd ruling).

The danger of relaxing media ownership rules became clear to me when I saw what happened with the Dixie Chicks. But there’s an even bigger danger in the future, on the Internet. The FCC recently ruled that cable and phone based broadband providers be classified as information rather than telecommunications services. This is the first step in a process that could allow Internet providers to arbitrarily limit the content that users can access. The phone and cable industries could have the power to discriminate against content that they don’t control or-- even worse-- simply don’t like.

The media conglomerates now dominate almost half of the markets around the country, meaning Americans get less independent and frequently less dependable news, views and information. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson spoke of the fear that economic power would one day try to seize political power. No consolidated economic power has more opportunity to do this than the consolidated power of media.

posted by { Howard Dean } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:26 PM } to { } { 198 comments }
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/2003_07.shtml


Businesses forge alliance to save jobs
Small manufacturers fight U.S. trade policy, endorse Feingold

Washington - With its first campaign endorsement last week, a fledgling group of Wisconsin manufacturers made a statement about the politics of job loss in the industrial Midwest.

Known as Save American Manufacturing Now, the small-business coalition endorsed Senate Democrat Russ Feingold, whose voting score last year from the nation's best-known business lobby - the U.S. Chamber of Commerce - was a paltry 20%.

Why Feingold?

Simple.

The two-term Middleton senator has repeatedly opposed the big trade pacts of the last decade, from the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA, to normalizing trade relations with China.
…
Formed eight months ago, "SAMNow" has embarked on an aggressive campaign to change minds in Congress, meeting with members from both parties and on both sides of the issue.

Already, there's abundant evidence that the group - and the state's stark slide in manufacturing jobs - are altering the way Wisconsin lawmakers approach trade.
…
Schuldt says her members believe the big, established business lobbies have failed to speak for them on trade and "unfair competition."

"I think they think we're a bunch of whiners," she said.

But Nick George of Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce suggests that established business groups like his are also undergoing a change on trade, in response to the growing cries of smaller companies.
…
http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/oct03/176637.asp

[Scott Lee]

160. Why John Kerry is a pathetic liar

Well Kerry has stepped in it again, so angry at his inability to top Dean that he decides to go full bore and lie and about him.

About the now famous "Dean confederate flag remark", Kerry says this:

"It is simply unconscionable for Howard Dean to embrace the most racially divisive symbol in America. I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA."

John Kerry, you are an inveterate liar. Here are Dean's actual remarks:

"White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not , because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Please point out anywhere in that comment or any other he made related to it that shows an "embracement" specifically of the confederate flag. Let me save you some time. You won't find any.

Anyone with a teaspoon full of grey goop between their ears can read that Dean was saying he would not (and the Democrats indeed CANNOT afford to) alienate the South in the drive for the presidency.

Also, Dean has a respectable amount of support from Black leaders. Hardly what you would expect from some stealth confederate candidate, huh?

John Kerry and Dickless Gephardt, you both owe Howard Dean a huge apology and a vow to the electorate that you both will no longer stoop to outright lies to shore up your flagging campaigns.

[politmuse1]

169. Anything to Win: Shame Shame Shame

Someone above said (in support of Dean!!):

>Dean never support the flag. He is after the vote and winning.

In other words, he'll do anything to win. Support the symbol of hatred, sleep with the gun lobby ... anything to get the votes and win.

And all of you Deanies think this is just hunky dory. Do you realize that more Americans have been killed by guns the last few weeks than in this whole damn war?

I want one Dean supporter here to tell us with a straight face that he would have supported any other candidate in the running today -- any of them! -- had they been fans of the NRA and confederate flag.

I hope you'll be honest enough with yourselves to at least admit you'll take any outrage from your candidate just because you're blindly loyal, not because it's defensible.

[Skinner]

171. With over 170 replies, I'm locking this thread.

You may continue discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=634990

[LoZoccolo]

174. To me, Edwards, Gephardt, Kerry, and Lieberman are /out/ now.

Why? Because they chose to jump on an opportunity to play politics by dishonest campaigning. To me, they seem just like regular politicians who'll play to the crowd rather than do something to lead it.

By now we all know the statement was taken out of context and is a statement that racism is a way to distract white people in the south from actually voting for things which actually benefit them. If anything, it's a call to get them to stop being racist. It's a statement of intention to /lead/ the bigots to consider how the racism actually affects them and not a pander to them.

If people don't understand that by now I'm not going to try and nag them to actually find out what the context of that statement was - they make themselves part of the problem by making us all walk on eggs when trying to discuss this very important issue.

These quotes are from http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc

Check this out:

"I don't want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Gephardt said in a statement. "I will win the Democratic nomination because I will be the candidate for guys with American flags in their pickup trucks."

Basically in trying to distance himself from this out-of-context notion, he basically says he's not gonna /lead/. He's going to ignore the racists and let 'em go on thinking what they think rather than confront them on how this division actually works against them as people. Did he think about this before he said it? Nah, he was just going to try to benefit from the knee-jerk reaction. Politics.

Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts contended that Dean's "pandering" to the National Rifle Association gave him an inroad to "pander to lovers of the Confederate flag."

Basically the same thing here. Politics.

The two southerners in the Democratic race, North Carolina Sen. John Edwards and retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark of Arkansas, also protested. "Some of the greatest civil rights leaders, white and black, have come from the South," said Edwards. "To assume that southerners who drive trucks would embrace this symbol is offensive."

He didn't say that. Politics.

Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman weighed in as well. "Governor Dean ought to be more careful about what he says," Lieberman said. "It is irresponsible and reckless to loosely talk about one of the most divisive, hurtful symbols in American history."

He gave enough context when he said it to begin with! It is irresponsible and reckless to imply something is there that isn't. Politics.

This sort of doesn't surprise me - these four politicians, instead of /leading/ and questioning why they were voting on a war resolution far before it was evident that Iraq was violating a ban on weapons of mass destruction, and coming out with the tough questions, pandered to the fears of looking unpatriotic.

To be sure, there's a contingent of hard-core bigots everywhere, but then there's that contingent of white males who don't have anything against civil rights that's really just more afraid of being falsely accused of bigotry and doesn't want to have to walk on eggs about everything they say - the way Dean was trying to help and got accused of all this junk. Sure we all need to be more sensitive, all of us. But making it more like you can't even discuss this stuff without having your words twisted around is part of the problem. And that's what these four did.

Part of Dean's appeal is as someone who's a straight talker. Attacks like this from these four only help us.