Anyone else tired of the candidate bashing?

[mitchtv]

I honestly like all the candidates, any one would be better than the court appointed Res.(even Joe). It hurts me to see the GOP talking points written ,and/or repeated here ad nauseum. There is one enemey here and its not a Dem candidate. I dread visiting this sight anymore. It's that we(DUrs) do a much better job of trashing Dems than Rove does. Witness the trashing of Gray Davis- well done all. Next up? Dean/Clark/ kerry or anyone else .

[alexwcovington]

1. Yes

[Brucey]

2. You mean Dem candidates?

Of course. Tired.

[WinstonChurchill]

3. I Agee -- Have You Heard What That B*****d Zell Miller Said?

I like some of them better than others, but Senator Zell Miller (D(?) GA) is really hurting the party when he says this stuff:

The Democratic candidates "have managed to take the main plank of the McGovern race, antiwar, and the main plank in the Mondale race, raising taxes, and put them together. How dumb can you get?"

"Howard Dean needs to take a little anger-management course, but he also needs to take a crash course on the history of freedom. I don't think he has a clue where it came from. If he had been living that night in April of 1775, when Paul Revere came riding by shouting 'The British are coming, the British are coming,' Howard Dean would have yelled out his window, 'Shut up, I'm trying to get some sleep.' "

[Military Brat]

25. Bullcrap, Zell you jerk!!

Dean would have shouted back, "Give me a minute to saddle up and I'll be out there to help you!"

WTF is wrong with Zell Miller anyway? Did they put a chip in his brain or something?

[asjr]

27. bash

Someone inform me if I am wrong, but wasn't Zell a Repub before he became a Dem? I thought I read somewhere--ages ago, that He ran as a Democrat only to get in the race? Or am I dreaming that?

[Zynx]

4. Indeed.

I'm sick of people calling Clark a war criminal. I'm sick of people calling Dean a racist. I'm sick of people calling Kerry an elitist. I could go on and on. None of these attacks have any basis in fact at all and are just vicious personal attacks that undermine the strength of our party.

[Myra]

5. No!

Dammit! Bob Dole couldn't even stand up?
He fell right over when they tried to put
him on a stage. Then when he fell over he
just lay there sunning himself.
That's all he did!
Great googly moogly people!
That's a bashworthy candidate.

:evilgrin:

[Nlighten1]

6. I'm sick of it.

[Cha]

7. Yes! I'm tired of all this shyte...

On to some new shyte.

[proud patriot]

8. I can't wait for the primaries to be over

Maybe I'm extra sensitive . This is the first time I've
taken an intrest this early .

[Padraig18]

9. I *am* tired of it.

However, that being said, I will not stand by and let my candidate be trashed with some half-baked, out-of-context crapola. :shrug:

[Dookus]

10. well....

it seems nobody tires of the candidate-bashing as long as it's not THEIR candidate being bashed. People who bash Clark or Kerry at ever opportunity suddenly decry the bashing when it's directed against Dean. And vice-versa in all directions.

I'm not tired of it. NOW is the time for us to debate the Dem candidates - it's not bashing to point out the real arguments for and against the various candidates.

[Zynx]

16. If you noticed what I said, I said that I am sick of the personal attacks

on a variety of candidates. Those attacks simply divide Democrats and make it more likely that Bush will be elected next year.

[mitchtv]

22. well, I am undecided, and i get offended

hearing people called racists, records being distorted, taken out of context , etc. so an attack on a Democrat, is just that.there is a way to Debate, mainy by stressing what makes your candidate better, or at least different from the pack. We must not say things that can't be taken back. make your words soft and sweet, you may have to eat them someday

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. I agree to a point.

I am MORE tired of that which is patently false that gets floated.

What I want, however, is the candidate that can WAX the floor with Bush in a debate. More and more, the only candidate I see prepared to do that on EVERY issue is John Kerry. I am still not quite decided, but I get closer every day.

[huckleberry]

12. Yes! I've decided for my own sanity to stop reading them!

[QC]

13. Sick of it.

Lately DU sounds like a slightly more genteel version of Freak Republic, thanks to the endless attacks on Democrats.

Have so many of us forgotten that our real enemy is the sorry S.O.B. in the White House?

[Prodemsouth]

14. Count me in HELL YEAH

N/T

[quinnox]

15. Nope, it's necessary

all the skeletons and weak spots of these candidates need to be heard about (within reason, of course) to ensure the right and best nominee is chosen to beat Bush.

And when a candidate says something extraordinarily stupid that gets major press coverage, they should be called on it.

[Padraig18]

17. I agree.

Just like they should be called on voting for minor things like the IWR and the Patriot Act. Don't you agree? :evilgrin:

[quinnox]

23. Of course

And they have been discussed many times over. I have no objection, no matter how many times people harp over Kerry's war vote. It's fair game.

[Zynx]

18. The difficulty is that I sense a great deal of visceral hatred of certain

candidates building. That is not good. Please, do not give the Republicans fodder so they can say "Look what their fellow Democrats said about Candidate X".

[XanaDUer]

19. What quinnox said...

Any political forum will have these discussions.

I've seen problems from all sides, but I have also seen relevant concerns about all candidates addressed.

[welshTerrier2]

20. We're Gonna Lose if We Keep Doing It

my 82 year old parents are very progressive democrats ... each time there's a debate, I call them to suggest that they watch it to learn about the candidates and the issues ...

their response, "what's the point ... it's a waste of time if all they're going to do is attack each other ..."

The candidates are not getting their messages out ... democrats are being portrayed as whining complainers and attack dogs by the media ... they have been saying plenty of important things, but the bashing is what makes the news ... and the candidates and their supporters are playing right into this ... we're all to blame ...

You can blame the news media all you want, but that's the reality ... until the bashing stops, democrats have no prayer of being heard ...

I'm more than tired of it, I'm terrified of it ...

[Dookus]

21. But the fact is...

that right now, the dem candidates are running against each other, NOT Bush. I can't remember a primary election in my lifetime when the candidates didn't go after each other.

I simply can't understand the idea that 9 candidates are supposed to distinguish themselves without challenging each other. This is the way ALL primary elections are run, for ANY party.

[Woodstock]

26. you can go after someone but still behave decently

if you KNOW someone is not prejudiced/not out to cheat senior citizens/etc. and you accuse them it just to make a sensation - that's just destructive for the party

talk about real issues like ladies and gentlemen - at this point, that is our only wise strategy - we simply don't have much leeway for failure

[welshTerrier2]

36. thanks, Woodstock

you're dead on !!

i'm afraid too many of the "die hard candidate supporters" are just not hearing this message ...

[mitchtv]

28. well I guess it doesn't help things when

people are called "newt Gingrich" by another candidate. terms of derogation like Weasel, racist,lying scumbag are out of place .Lying and exagerating will only feed the pukes as they will use thse same Dems as a source when they repeat these points.

[Woodstock]

30. Right, and potential voters are being turned off

Clinton actually advised the gentler approach in the American Prospect.

[welshTerrier2]

35. Gotcha Gotcha Rhetoric

Your views on this issue seem to be widely held on DU and elsewhere ...

Let me see if I can explain why I disagree ...

First, let me argue that the democratic party is once again failing in its mission to provide leadership ... we seem to think that the right process is that we pick a donkey and then follow it wherever it takes us ... this method produces a muddled message that is heard by only the most dedicated activists ...

Don't believe this?

Go ask the next ten people you see to explain Dean's position on anything ... several of them will have heard of Dean ... "he's the doctor, right?" ... one or two might even tell you he opposed the war in Iraq ... but they could not tell you why "he would help solve the problems americans are facing" ...

So, my first point, perhaps off the subject, is that most of us are too much in the candidate business and not enough in the party platform business ...

Next, imagine every candidate, no matter who it is, helping lift up all Democrats by citing why Democrats should be returned to power not just in the White House but in the Congress as well ...

Are you hearing that message from our candidates ?? The very disturbing answer is: NO !!! you are not ... our candidates are not talking about how the democratic party has solid solutions for the very real and difficult problems that are facing our country ...

OK ... so now to your point ... I am not suggesting that candidates in "primary mode" don't have to campaign "against" each other ... of course they do ... but there's a way to do this that "lifts the party" and there's a way to do this that hurts all of our candidates ...

Let's take a few examples ... first, we have the albatross that Gephardt has been using so effectively in Iowa against Dean ... he supported Gingrich's position on Medicare ... and the somewhat older population in Iowa has responded very positively to this attack ... the race has tightened up considerably ... so let me ask you, is this the message Democrats want to put out to the American public about their current front-runner ... and is this where Dean stands on the issue today ... the goal is to exploit a bad position Dean took 10 years ago even if it does not represent his current views ...

Another example ... Lieberman made some kind of crack about welcoming Clark to the race because now he (Lieberman) isn't the only one being accused of not being a "real" democrat ... Great ... the hopes of getting bush out of the White House may end up resting on Clark's shoulders ... do we really want to alienate the democratic base if he becomes the eventual nominee ??? What's the point of this stupidity ???

One last one ... Kerry is republican-lite ... i hated Kerry's vote on the IWR ... but he has one of the most progressive voting records in the Congress ... now that Kerry voted against the $87 billion, are we eager to assist those who suggest he "flip-flopped" on Iraq ... well, he didn't flip-flop ... imagine that he becomes the eventual nominee ... is this the view we want to convey to the broader electorate ???

The point of all this is that there's a huge difference between having a competition of ideas and levelling dangerous ad hominem arguments against a fellow democrat ... Do you believe Howard Dean wants to weaken Medicare? Do you think that Clark's progressive views on a wide array of issues is a deception so that a republican can sneak in and win the democratic nomination? Do you think Kerry would really appeal to republicans? It's all crap ... and it's very damaging ... it takes the candidates off message ... it takes the party off message ... and all that is heard is the "gotcha gotcha" attack dog rhetoric ...

I'm not opposed to the candidates challenging each other during the primaries ... but I do oppose "bashing" that lessens both candidates and the party in the process ...

[Woodstock]

40. Agree - the fact is people DON'T really believe those things

about the candidates - and it is all crap, as you said

they think this is some kind of playground game, "my candidate is better than yours is"

but this is not a game - the health, well-being, and very lives of people in this country and around the world depend on us winning this election

sound melodramatic? well, unfortunately, it's the truth

this isn't a game - and we should act accordingly

[Woodstock]

24. Yes! I am sick to death of candidate bashing

both by the candidates and by the people on DU

I don't see anything wrong with bringing up real issues

everyone knows these candidates are good people with good intentions, so just twisting their words around to make them seem evil is just so destructive

[mitchtv]

29. well put Woodstock

my thoughts exactly.

[youngred]

31. absolutely

its just so self defeating and unecessary. I understand the vetting of the candidates, but come on some of this is waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the necessary

[RuB]

32. yes. I want to hear their alternatives

to the idiot sonofabitch (literally) Bushie. What has he done wrong and what are YOU going to do better or differently.

[Dookus]

34. well they ARE doing that.....

but it's unrealistic to expect that 9 people vying for one position (that of Dem nominee, at the moment - they're NOT yet vying for President) won't draw distinctions between themselves and other candidates.

Can you point to ANY primary race in which this wasn't the case?

[RuB]

43. There is a big difference!

People who have NO chance of winning are dumping on Dean and Clark. They seem to have forgotten who the real enemy is. I'm concerned the corrupt pathetic excuse of humanity (the Republicans) will use the soundbytes of Gephardt and Lieberman and the like over and over and over again. I think its the agenda of those two who don't want a Dean or Clark to win the nomination because they want to more align the party with the DLC not the Liberal aspect of the Democratic party.

[imax2268]

33. we should support all the candidates...

You know...people like the freerepublic and other conservatives are happy to see that some in the democratic parties are fighting amongst each other over thier favorite candidates...

I think this infighting needs to just stop...it's stupid. All the candidates are great...I mean look...we have nine candidates who at least have the balls to put their names in the hat and stand up to BushCo Inc. Now if the infighting can stop here...then it's time to write our candidates and tell them it's time to stop going after each other...it's nothing but great news for the repukes...

We all need to focus on the big picture...getting BushCo Inc out of office...

Just a thought...

[Dookus]

38. how on earth...

can we support ALL the candidates when there are major differences among them. NOW is the time for all this to be hashed out.

People get exercised when they perceive THEIR candidate is being bashed. That's understandable.

But pointing out Clark's career, Kerry's position on IRW, Dean's position on Medicare, etc. etc. are ALL valid issues to raise.

[Woodstock]

41. Not if they are cheap shots

which most of what I've been hearing here, and in the debates has been

talk issues decently, respectfully - debate like ladies and gentlemen

don't twist peoples' words or positions around (AKA, lay off the cheap shots)

cut the shrill emotionalism, the false outrage

the stakes are simply too high this time around

(and if we EVER get the field narrowed down to 4 or 5, then perhaps we can get into some classical debates, where they actually talk substance)

[DrFunkenstein]

37. After Almost A Year Of "Bush-Lite" And Other Lies

I'd say your disappointment is a little on the tardy side.

[Kanary]

39. In school, I thought a lot of subject matter was useless.

Now, I really understand the value of teaching debate skills to *everyone*. I understand the value of public speaking practice. I understand the value of knowing history very well, and being able to convey the historical lessons learned.

There was a time when all school students learned "elocution" and practiced debate in school. Being shy and the rather sensitive sort, it was a form of slow death to me. Now, however, I would give a lot to be able to watch a debate with candidates who can stick to their own points, and be eloquent in stating their policies, without feeling it necessary to break the knees of their opponents. The same goes for being able to discuss these matters with each other.

Thanks to sitcoms and such, now it's much more necessary to be able to know how to cope with verbal violence. We're on the same side, here, and shouldn't have to resort to verbal self-defense courses. It really *is* possible to have passionate ideas without having to reduce your opponent to rubble.

Kanary

[Woodstock]

42. Exactly!

Nicely said.

[rasputin1952]

44. I am so tired of it, I rarely...

go to a thread about a candidate.

There is good and bad about everyone, and I think that it has been hashed over so often that all effect is lost. As far as I'm concerned, it is up to the states to nominate a candidate, and then I will pick up the ball and run like hell. I know whom I would like to see run, but regardless...I will go with the Dem nominee, period.

There would have to be a very dramatic event for me to get me to change my mind.

:kick:

[MissMarple]

45. We should call a moratorium on candidate bashing.

This is getting stupid. No one agrees with someone 100% of the time. For the most part I can support our Democratic candidates. Some I like more than others, but they all articulate a democratic message. The fine points of many issues are for Congress.

If you diagree with someone on an issue, speak to that, don't go on some out of the ballpark diatribe on a personal bugaboo.

We need a President who understands that the welfare of the American people is more important than the welfare of international corporations. We need an individual who does not need to sell his political soul to maintain a precarious hold on power, who understands that people are more important than a shallow ideology.
We can't afford to blow this one. If we do, things will only get uglier.

[BloodyWilliam]

46. I am.

Although I still loathe Holy Joe with a passion. Any of the other candidates I'd gladly embrace.

[andym]

47. Yes

Candidate bashing is a waste of time.

Discussion of differences that offer
clear distinctions between the issues
and vision is welcome.

It is possible to discuss the pressing
"issues" and even gaffes without discending
into attacks. For example, it can
be done asking for clarification.


It's the bashing part that is unfortunate,
not the discussion of differences, etc.

[Scott Lee]

48. This will assure a Bush victory

Make no mistake about that.

That's one of the reasons I defend Dean so much - because some of you have your knickers in such a twist that this guy has muscled his way to the front even before your precious (entitled somehow) John Kerrys and Dick Gephardts. This personality cult stuff is going to erode any democratic solidarity (of which there has been none in several years) that could unseat this sitting criminal president.

Advice: Ease up on Dean. Evaluate these guys as they develope their campaigns and push their ideas and ask yourself what kind of country you want next if a Democrat should win. Do you want a reinvigorated party with a sense of mission again, or do you want Republican lite?

It's your vote.