****** DEAN CONFEDERATE FLAG THREAD #3 ******

[Skinner]

I am aware that my title breaks the GD rules. I am making the title very prominent because it is the only GD thread about this topic.

Apparently things got pretty ugly around here last night. I have temporarily decided to lock all of the Dean/Confederate flag threads that get started in the General Discussion forum, in an effort to get people to chill out. If you wish to discuss the issue in the General Discussion Forum, you must do so in this thread. I expect anyone who wishes to discuss this to do so in an adult manner. This restriction is for the General Discussion Forum only.

Late today, if and only if the behavior improves, I will remove this temporary restriction.

This is a continuation of Thread #1 and #2 on this issue, which now each have more than 170 posts and have been locked.

Skinner
DU Admin

Howard Dean's Comment Sparks Iowa Dust-Up

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=8&u=/ap/20031101/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_2004

WASHINGTON - A comment by Howard Dean about Confederate flags and pickup trucks has embroiled the leading Democrats in Iowa's presidential caucuses in a name-calling donnybrook.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean's campaign said Saturday that Dean was intending to encourage the return of Southern voters who have abandoned the Democrats for decades but are disaffected with the Republicans.

Two Democrat rivals competing against Dean in Iowa's leadoff Jan. 19 caucuses saw the comment differently.

more

[VermontDem2004]

1. Like I said I don't see no racism in these comments

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean's campaign said Saturday that Dean was intending to encourage the return of Southern voters who have abandoned the Democrats for decades but are disaffected with the Republicans.


I agree, I think people misunderstood what he said but this is basically how I understood it.

"We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1 percent while their children remain with no health care," Dean said. "The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades — starting with Richard Nixon. ... The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African-American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."


Dean explained his position and I 100% agree with it.

[wryter2000]

6. I'm a Dean supporter

But there had to be a better way to say it. If he doesn't grow a bit more sensitivity on the issue, he's going to lose my support. He wouldn't want to represent people waving swastikas, would he?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Of course he wouldn't and no one would be defending it if it were

a swastika versus a confederate flag. That is what is SO repulsive about him using it in the first place.

[loyalsister]

23. I disagree

Can you think of any second meaning for a swastika? Do you know of any people who are German who just claim it as a symbol of Germany? No because they have a different national flag.
In contrast, there a thousands if not millions of southerners who see the confederate flag strictly as a symbol of their region. People from the south are very proud of its regional cultural distinctions from other parts of the country. Many people like having a symbol of independence and distinction. It is not related to racist attitudes in any way for a huge number of people.
That is not something that can be said of the symbol of the NAZI party. Particularly since it has been adopted by modern white supremacists.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. The swastika DEFINITELY has other meanings

It is a sanskrit symbol that was hijacked by Hitler.

The confederate flag has long been a similar symbol of white supremacists.

I DON'T think Howard Dean is a racist. I am really more concerned that he has chosen this symbol on several occasions to make his point.

[loyalsister]

135. What I meant

was whether the swastika has other well known meanings. It doesn't. You have to go looking to find the original meaning. That isn't the case with the confederate flag.

[SahaleArm]

144. Get out of your hometown.

The world is a pretty big place. Take a trip to India/Nepal and see the original swastika in temples and monuments. You'll notice it runs in the opposite direction of the Hitler swastika.

[Cheswick2.0]

58. No I am sorry, but the confederate flag is a symbol of racism

nothing more. Whatever else it meant to people it has come to represent racism alone now.

PS... that particular flag was only adopted as part of southern state flags in the 1950s when racists were feeling persecuted by having to give up their ugly ways.

Dean made another booboo. The man is not smart enough to be our candidate.

[Classical_Liberal]

61. That was the case in Georgia

It was not the case in Mississippi. It has been part of their state flag since reconstruction. Just as an aside, I think there are worse things in Mississippi right now, and I am surprised that as a rabid antinader poster you can't be pragamatic and see that some issues are simply more important that others. Why didn't Clinton take on flags during his tenure?

[SOteric]

76. I'm sorry, but your quite simply wrong.

"but the confederate flag is a symbol of racism, nothing more."

To a great many of America's youth it is a symbol of rebellion. It pis the 'rebel flag.' And to a great many in the south it's simply regarded as a part of their heritage. The mind often edits out the detailed history of what all it could represent along with that history.

I don't say this to defend Dean, whose comments I'm less than pleased about. But your argument that the flag does not mean anything else to anyone is quite simply wrong. It does. However strange and sad that may be.

[angee_is_mad]

151. Desegration

Actually, whites revived the confederate flag in the 1950's and 60's as a symbol of segration and Jim Crow laws. The rebel part came in because they felt the federal government had no business telling them want to do as far as segration and ending the Jim Crow laws. Until this time (except for the Civil War) the confederate flag wasn't a visible symbol. There was no need for it to be. But in the 50's and 60's is when they started putting the flag on government buildings and so forth as a symbol of opposition to desegration.

[Clark Can WIN]

168. Every person I ever met in North Carolina

that flew that rag was a racist. It's a racist flag for racists.

[TLM]

190. I would point out the fact that slavery and racism didn't start with

the stars and bars.

There was national institutional racism and slavery back when the red white and blue was first stitched... so does that mean that old glory represents nothing but racism?

[Code_Name_D]

90. Dean made no such booboo

You are taking him out of context. Or are the neo-cons right about the extent of "political corectness" that persists today. That Dean dosn't even have a RIGHT to mention the confederit flag any more. Nice contry we live in.

[KaraokeKarlton]

136. The most commonly recognized Confederate Flag is older than you

It is the official battle flag of the Civil War. The flag was used because both sides were shooting at their own soldiers because the original flag the south was using looked too much like the one the Union was using. The only reason people have an issue with the flag is because idiots like the KKK and Skin Heads have hijacked the damn thing in the same way Bush and the religious right have attempted to hijack the American flag.

[ma4t]

164. tell it like it is, Cheswick

"....the confederate flag is a symbol of racism, nothing more."

Good going. There are no alternative meanings to this symbol. It is quite clear that everyone who adopts this symbol understands full well that it has only one possible interpretation. This is no different than the depiction of a flaming cross meaning support for the Ku Klux Klan and nothing else! I can't understand why the Presbyterians and United Methodists would want to put a Klan symbol up on their churches. Don't they understand the meaning behind the fiery cross? After all, a symbol stands for what I say it does, nothing more! (/sarcasm)

[Classical_Liberal]

52. I think it is repulsive for you to say he is defending the swastika or

anything like that. He didn't even defend the CSA flag. You said he validated it. What's the difference. I think he is saving the issue for a more convenint time to deal with more pressing issues. Let's get our feet in the door first.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Where did I say that?

[Classical_Liberal]

69. You said he validated the flag.

I say he is putting it on the shelf for a time when he could actually win on it. People who don't allow gays to legally marry are homophobs in my view. Why the hell is no candidate trying to legalize it? Maybe because they can't f-ing win?

[SahaleArm]

146. He affirmed it's ok to fly the confederate flag...

as long as you want healthcare, education, and Howard Dean. After being admonished he released a statement comdemning the confederate flag.

[TLM]

191. OH PLEASE!?!?!?! LOL!

Newsflash, this is america where it is OK to fly the stars and bars if you want.


Dean is saying he wants to undermine the racist southern strategy and bring blacks and whites together with our common goals. He said nothing about the confederat flag being OK or not OK he simply said he wants to tell the people flying them to stop voting for republcians.

The lengths people will go to in order to attack Dean is simply amazing.

[angee_is_mad]

152. Same old, same old

That's what White politicians have been telling Black voters for decades. Ignor the crude and divisive comments I make to get the White vote and know that once I am in office I will take care of you all later. "Just get me in the door and everything will be great", then that politician starts to work on getting re-elected, and it all starts over again.

[Cha]

16. I don't get the Giant leap from confederate flag

to swastika and I just read a post futher down by "slor" ..an "African American male" who said he was Not offended by Dean's remarks! And Jesse Jackson Jr isn't either..

I'm sorry to see that you think Dean isn't being "sensitive" enough in his reaching out to these voters.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. actually Zidzi, Dean is being an idiot

The confederate flag is a symbol of racism. Dean should know that and so should everyone here. The man should apologize for the ham handed way he chose to reach out to southern voters.

[Classical_Liberal]

54. Why did Clinton tolerate it then?

? Maybe most sensible politicians have better things to do.

[JohnKleeb]

59. You're right about the flag

Sorry people but I do NOT like that flag one bit. Yes they have the right but think about what the flag means. Don't say because I am white it shouldnt matter because it does, that flag has been used in white supermacist rallies for a longtime, and in many of those rallies in particular KKK rallies, they went after people like me. I dont like the flag one bit. Those people should be voting democratic I agree wholeheartly BUT I think those who own the flag could well be racist. Not all of us Southerners embrace that flag for the record too. Just my 2 cents.

[Cha]

63. I don't agree! I have seen what Jesse Jackson Jr.

had to say and I have read what "slor" said and I respectfully disagree! Dean's words were twisted by those with desperation!

And I'm glad he got the subject out in the open.

[JohnKleeb]

65. What does the confederate flag mean to you?

It represents a lot to me and it aint positive. You realize that the flag is not only offensive to African Americans, I tell you I am white I know, but I do know damn well that the KKK which is pretty much anti everything but Western European Protestant American Born people went after people like my ancestors and did so under that flag. The confederate flag is something I Dont like one bit. My ancestor a German immigrant fought for this country to put that rebellion, I am not sure how he felt about slavery but I know that he nearly gave his life for the country, he was in battle during the Army of the Potomac's most hardest days.

[Classical_Liberal]

68. I think Gay people should be able to marry, how come no candidate supports

this position or will fight for it. Those who don't are in my opinion homophobs, but they are also a majority, which is why I also think that is a dumb issue to focus on because the public opinion is NOT there to back us up. .

[JohnKleeb]

75. Ummm on gay marriage

My unelectable candiate supports it.

[Classical_Liberal]

77. Well then I guess you aren't pragmatist

many of the people bitching and moaning are nader haters, because they claim he was too far out. Every other week they take that track against Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

82. No I am not, I Am an idealist duh

Well you guys are acting like everyone who criticizes Dean is a "Dean hater" how come you guys arent for what you do their candiate of choice a "their candiate name here" hater. Dean isnt too left for me, if any too moderate for me. Yeah I am an idealistic person and I will hold that sacred. I would vote for any of the nominees but I cant vote but I do know things.

[Classical_Liberal]

84. I do criticize the haters of other candidates

The Clark or Kerry is a war criminal people drive me batty. I don't post ani-other candidate threads. I though Tweety treated Kucinich shabily.

[Cha]

73. It means the South!

[JohnKleeb]

78. You really think that eh

I may only be somewhat of a Southerner but I do live in what was one of the biggest confederate states. It doesnt mean the south. If it does then thats truly sad then. Do you really think most of us have confederate flags? Of course I dont think everyone who owns that flag is a bigot. I do think the flag represents something pathenic in our nation's history, you betcha. Seriously I know very few people who are ok with the flag down here. You really think thats what the south is all about. Of course these people should be voting democrat, no duh but whats with the defending of the flag I see, I dont like it one bit. Christ allmighty, do you know how many people have suffered at the hands of people believing in that flag, all the lynchings etc. That flag represents a big turmoil in our history. I dont think it means my reigion. It does technically mean the south but thats not what the south is all about.

[Cha]

87. You asked me what it meant to me and I told you....

It means different things to different People and I have heard from African Americans on this and I am cool with what Dean said.

[TLM]

192. SO does that mean the black power fist...

is a symbol of racist hate for whites since clearly some of those who fly it do so out of racism?

Or could it be the symbols have more than one meaning and represent more than one aspect of a group struggle?

[Bucky]

20. I'm a Clark supporter...

... and nothing short of him getting the nomination will make me a Dean supporter. But that said, I really don't think the content of his statement was so bad. If a black candidate had said it, we'd be saying he or she has courage. And the same statement from Sharpton or Moseley Braun would be equally true.

I also don't think the way he made his point about health care was all that bad. People are pissed because Dean told the truth. As Democrats we need those votes. More importantly, as citizens the folks with Rebel flags on their back windows need to have the Democratic Party strong enough to enact a sane, balanced health care law.

It's probably something a reporter or news analyst should have (and would have) said. Instead a supposed statesman said it. And this gave vultures like Kerry, Gephardt, Sharpton, and Lieberman a chance to pounce on something, even if they have to distort the statement to make the attack work. This remains a non-issue.

If this comment hurts Dean's chances, I won't cry a bit. But it's still not fair. Dean's no racist and he's not tone deaf. He might think he's better than the little people, but some of our greatest presidents have had that same quality.

[mzmolly]

24. Damn straight!

"I really don't think the content of his statement was so bad. If a black candidate had said it, we'd be saying he or she has courage. And the same statement from Sharpton or Moseley Braun would be equally true."

[Cha]

27. We agree on something else, too..

"And this gave vultures like Kerry, Gephardt, Sharpton, and Lieberman a chance to pounce on something, even if they have to distort the statement to make the attack work. This remains a non-issue.

[paulk]

92. "If a black candidate had said it,"

Has a black candidate said anything like that?

With all due respect, you can't put words in people's mouths and then base an argument on it.

[mzmolly]

93. Jesse Jackson Jr. did. He's not a candidate but here's what he had to say

on this issue.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunter's gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," ~ concluded Cong. Jackson.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232&JServSessionIdr002=9fveksjq71.app195a&news_iv_ctrl=1301

[Toucano]

31. Thank you.

That's all I needed to hear.

[janekat]

40. If he wants the Confederate flag crowd - why wouldn't he want skinheads?

They're pretty similar in my book...

[seventhson]

111. There are many kinds of skinheads just like Many kinds of confederate flag

wavers.

Not all are racists.

"Rebels" and anti-establishment poor boys or even middle class punks can tote the confederate flag to resist authority and the Yankee supremacy attitude and the ivy leaguers like Bush *Remember Bush is a Yankee through and through despite his fake drawl - their real home is Kinnebunkport Maine where he racked up his DUI.

This is a BIG FAT RED HERRING.

Dean's FIRST articulation of the statement was beautiful and deserved applause. His second articulation was not as artful but expressed the SAME idea: that poor "whites" are getting screwed by the Bushes as bad as anybody else tand that DEAN will help THEM too and THEY should vote for the DEMOCRATS: DEAN SHOULD APPEAL TO THEM!!! As well he should. WE need their votes AND their support and we deserve it because Dean will do more to help them (and we hope with education and enlightenment) than BUSH EVER WILL.

I understand the fear and concern of those who know little of Dean hearing him say he wants to be the candidate for those who have confederate flags in their pickups.

BUT WHAT HE IS SAYING IS HE WANTS TO REPRESENT ALL OF US!!!

And he will. And skinheads and rednecks and confederate rebels SHOULD vote for Dean just as inner city welfare mothers, Appalachian coal miners and hillbillies, black Nam veterans with PTSD and tobacco-spittin redneck farmers should.


Dean can unite us and make us work together for peace and prosperity and

BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THE BUSHZIS AT THE POLLS!!!

[mzmolly]

53. He did say it in a 'better way'..

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (APPLAUSE) ~ Howard Dean - February 21, 2003

Amazingly he was applauded. :eyes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/dean_022103.html

BTW, Swastikas have one meaning. The CF has several meanings, depending. To some it's a symbol of states rights...

[Bandit]

166. BTW, Swastikas have one meaning.

They have about the same meaning to Buddhists as the cross has to Christians. It is an extrememly popular symbol around the world and has absolutly nothing to do with Fascism. There are as many Buddhists as Christians and a Swastika is a very holy symbol to them.

[mzmolly]

174. Then Sharpton insulted many Buddhists with his comments??!!!

Thanks for the enlightenment...

I was totally ignorant to this fact.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/4965/swastika.html

[1songbird]

178. Dean's comments are off base

and I'll tell you why. I live in Cincinnati, Ohio but I'm from Alabama. I was just in Alabama this weekend and what I noticed is that the confederate flag has moved from the south to the north and is now a republican icon. The old dixiecrats used this as a symbol and warning for blacks to remember and keep their place. I simply did not see the number of flags there that I see right here in Cincy everyday. This is a staunch republican northern state and yet that friggin flag is everywhere! Dean has his facts wrong if he thinks the confederate flag is a democratic symbol in the south. Bull crap! Wrong friggen party. Someone forgot to tell him that the dixiecrats moved to the republican party. He needs to stay true to his base and not pull another Gray Davis centrist move that pleases no one and alienates his true base.

[TLM]

193. That's the point... it is a repuke icon...

and Dean is saying these republicans should be voting with us, not them.

[1songbird]

217. I follow what you're saying but let's be realistic.

Some southerners are still fighting the civil war. I would love for these repukes to cross over to our side. I just don't think it's going to happen and as such we should focus own building and repairing our base.

[wtmusic]

2. Grasping at straws

Efforts to read racism into these comments are lamentable, especially coming from other candidates.

[Closer]

3. All of this is so silly and pathetic, really it is, really folks.

But see it for what it is Dean supporters: desperation.

Dean is just about to take off for the last lap and win the race, and all the others know it.

He's simply unstoppable.

Look for more attacks of desperation to come. And look for more spikes in Dean's numbers.


The Revolution Won't Be Televised

[chimpymustgo]

4. No, it's a recognition of tone-deafness on Dean's part about race.

Geez Louise. If Dean supporters could put down the Kool-Ade just long enough to look at this objectively.

I don't think Dean is a racist. He just doesn't understand the issues, the language, the nuances of the debate.

My first exposure to Dean was last January - Martin Luther King's birthday. Dean was asked about the state of South Carolina flying the Confederate flag.

Dean hemmed. Dean hawed. Dean kicked the dirt with his shoe. Dean said it's a state's rights issue.

Okey dokey. I knew then and there what we are dealing with here. Now I've watched for months, as Dean says what he THINKS needs to be said it any given situation to get votes.

Please, let us as a party, be capable of doing better than this.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. He DID?

Do you have a link for this, by chance?

DTH

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

140. Is that your final answer?

:)

[Eloriel]

60. No, he DIDN'T say it was a "state's rights" issue

That's code language for racism and he did NOT say that.

He said that it was an issue that each state had to settle, it's not a FEDERAL issue.

He has since said more, and someone else quoted it on one of the gazillion other threads. I wasn't paying enough attention.

Eloriel

[TLM]

194. So you think the federal government should tell states

what they can or can not put on their state flags?

It is a states rights issue... and the people of the state changed their flag all on their own.

[billbuckhead]

9. Dean could have said any other bumpersticker.Dale Earnhardt better

Dean could have used any other bumpersticker on that pickup truck. Dale Earnhardt's #3 would have been far better. No, Howard Dean said "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," By doing this he turns Confederate flag owners into a coveted voting group. BTW, Dean did this while talking about healthcare. Much like Rush Limbaugh interjecting race into quarterbacking in the NFL, the candidate brought a racial/Kulturwar agenda to an issue where it didn't need to be.

[Padraig18]

19. Your meme is getting frequent-flyer miles. n/t

[TLM]

196. THat's stupid because earnhardt is not a republican icon

lots of dems like nascar.

Dean was talking about reaching out to republicans in the south who are being used by the repukes...

"By doing this he turns Confederate flag owners into a coveted voting group."

Umm they already are... southern moderates have been a group dems have wanted to win back for decades.

"BTW, Dean did this while talking about healthcare. "

Yeah because poor southern whites and poor southern blacks ALL need health care and good schools. Dean is working to bring blacks and whites together... all you seem to want to do is continue to devide them on race issues.

[Code_Name_D]

94. Its a heck of a lot better of a plan than...

To sweep the south than simplay being a 4 star Genral. Isn't he sapose to be retired?

[goobergunch]

5. We're on #3 already?

:wow:

*runs back to the lounge*

[slor]

7. As a African-American male...

I can honestly say that I found nothing offensive in his statement, And, quite frankly, it was quite refreshing to hear it. The Democrats are the party of the BIG TENT, and those poor fools that buy into racism need a chance to hear from the OTHER side. They may learn the error of their ways and see the ignorance of their position. I am saddened that Sharpton, whom I have enjoyed watching during the debates, would reduce that statement to this.

[Cha]

11. You have just made my day! I think I welcomed you

to DU already..you're name looks familiar!

But, thank you so much for these words that I feel are from your heart!

[chimpymustgo]

12. My words are from my heart too.

Dean doesn't get it.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janekat]

50. and neither do a lot of people on this forum - very disheartening

n/t

[TLM]

198. Your words are from your cadidate's talking points...

which come from another body part, one where the sun don't shine.

[slor]

28. No...I don't recall...

a welcome from you...YOU RACIST BASTARD!!!. LOL JK!!! Thanks for the belated welcome.

[Cha]

41. Sorry! Well then I'll Welcome you Now!

[mbali]

97. I'm an African American female

who WAS offended by Dean's remarks.

That's from my heart.

Do I get a thank you, too?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

142. Thank you.

That's from my heart.

I am so sorry I didn't run across this until now.

I'll never understand the lack of empathy I've found in the world.

One can bring up class differences, reaching out to poor white people in the South and not make any reference toward the Confederacy at all. Dean didn't. That's offensive.

Once again, thank you.

[billbuckhead]

13. Edwards says that Dean's bigoted toward Southern P/U truck owners

I agree with Edwards that Dean also insulted pickup truck owners by assuming they would have the Confederate flag on their trucks. At best Dean is out his league, at worst he has been endorsed by the NRA 8 times and he never renounced it, so it follows that his views aren't that far from Ted Nugent.

[VermontDem2004]

14. In no way did he say that southerners were confederate flag wavers

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks,"

[mzmolly]

21. OMG, Edwards comment was laughable.

Insulted owners of pick up trucks :eyes:

Not sure wether to laugh or cry at that one. Edwards should be fighting to take the Confederate Flag off of Government buildings in SC if he's so insulted by the Confederate symbol - which many Southerners suggest is about 'states rights' not racism.

[Pastiche423]

33. Edwards can't talk

He insulted AND screwed up 56 million USians w/his vote. AND, has never apologized.

[chimpymustgo]

47. Hello??? That's what DEAN said about the Confed flag: state's rights.

Know your candidate.

[mzmolly]

56. Hello, I agree with MY candidate.

The Confederate flag has different meanings to different people.

[Pastiche423]

72. HELLO???

Dean's comment was not directed at the flag.

Edward's vote WAS directed at 56 million USians.

I know my candidate. It appears either you don't know your candidate, or you agree w/his vote. Which is it?

[TLM]

199. DEan is right... it is not a federal issue

to tell a state what they can or can't put on their state flags. It is up to the people of the state to change their state flag, and they did.

[Toucano]

55. Also, Edwards is from North Carolina

I don't think he has any say in South Carolina's issue with the battle flag at the statehouse.

His North Carolina probably benefits from the boycott of South Carolina, so it works out for him.

[mzmolly]

57. Ah, guess that explains it.

Thanks ;)

[Pastiche423]

99. Edwards is FROM South Carolina

He lives in North Carolina now.

Besides, the issue on this thread is not about the FLAG!

MY issue w/Edwards is national.

[Toucano]

106. Gimme a break!

Edwards is the US Senator FROM North Carolina.

Clinton is the US Senator FROM New York.

Howard Dean is the former Governor FROM Vermont.

It is generally accepted that a person is from the state he or she represents. As the Senator FROM North Carolina, Edwards has no influence in South Carolina's statehouse issue. The poster was under the impression that he did. Americans often confuse the Carolinas, so I wanted to make that clear.

ANYWAY....

What are you talking about "USians"? And which vote is at the root of your contempt?

[mandyky]

115. Edwards was born in SC

but yes, he is the Sen. from NC.

[Toucano]

119. That isn't in dispute.

Thanks you.

The point is where he derives his political power from.

Edwards has no more responsibility in South Carolina's state laws than Clinton does in Illinois. Or Dean does in New York government.

[Pastiche423]

122. USians

The people that live in the U.S. of A are not the only Americans that post here. There are quite a number of Canadians on this board that live on the North American continent. Therefore, they are Americans. Using the word, USians, separates the two.

The vote, on May 23, 2002, was for the nomination of *D. Brooks Smith. To get a handle on that nomination, you can read any or all of the links on this page:

http://saveourcourts.civilrights.org/search/search.cfm

* Smith is a RW misogynist that has threatened to further weaken the rights of people with disabilities. He has been described as a throwback to an era when disabled people were routinely warehoused and forgotten.

Or for a quickie, you can read this:


Judiciary Committee Vote Insults Women; NOW Vows Campaign in Full Senate

May 23, 2002

Statement of NOW President Kim Gandy

The field of credible Democrats running for President was significantly narrowed today when two rumored candidates insulted every employed woman, every woman in business, and every woman who has been a victim of violence in this country. In casting their votes to promote Judge D. Brooks Smith to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, only one step below the Supreme Court, rumored candidates Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., and Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., disregarded the extensive evidence of unethical behavior and discriminatory conduct that caused the Washington Post, New York Times and Los Angeles Times to oppose Smith's confirmation.

- snip -

Another Presidential wanna-be, Sen. Edwards, hid out in his office across the hall from the hearing, and didn't even have the courage to cast his "Yes" vote in public.

-- snip -

The Senate's reputation as an "Old Boys Club" was reinforced by today's vote, in which both of the women on the Judiciary Committee voted against Smith, but he won anyway because 12 of the 17 men voted in his favor. To promote a judge who will have to decide on cases of discrimination, when that judge has himself cavalierly participated in discrimination and even ruled in favor of discriminatory practices, is the height of irresponsibility by those who are charged with that duty.

http://www.now.org/press/05-02/05-23.html

[Toucano]

125. Thank you.

I understand now. That is bad news.

[Egnever]

38. ROFL!

did edwards really say that?

OMG these guys are killing me!

This is quickly becoming comical.


what next he was racist against guys with vans that have rally big tires on them?

This is demeaning to the candidates spewing this stuff IMHO and will end up hurting them.

[Cha]

43. I know! Are we seeing what "Desperation" does

or what?

[Scott Lee]

161. Edwards is a flatuous buffoon searching for a reason to run

If Howard Dean wasn't already pantsing Edwards in the race so far I'd be upset by his tilts at Dean. But in the present reality, I only find it amusing.

[wryter2000]

34. Hi, slor

:hi:

Thank you for your insight. I think Dean is a fabulous candidate, and I felt quite fortunate to shake his hand last Wednesday. I think he's the strongest person to get us out of the mess the RWers have created in this country. I can't countenance anyone who wouldn't care about all Americans. If you feel okay with what he said (even positive), then my heart rests easier.

As to this debate, I'd be sorely disappointed if this subject didn't raise a lot of issues for all of us. And mega thanks to Skinner for riding herd on this issue.

I'll shut up now. :)

[Karenina]

42. What you said!

Drag this shit out into the light of day. Put it on the table and let's hash it out. Being a little white boy from Vermont, I'm not sure the Dr. realized what he bit into, but I say, BRING IT ON. He's ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Those Po' white folks who insist upon identifying with the BFEE who care NOT A FUCKIN' WHIT ABOUT THEM, NEED to get a clue. However clums Dean was about bringing up the issue, I'm delighted he has.

[Cha]

44. What Karenina said!

[Forkboy]

127. What everybody said!

:shrug:

:)

[BBradley]

15. If he were a republican we'd be screaming bloody murder...

I understand most of you are party faithful, but come on.

[mmonk]

117. exactly

[mzmolly]

130. If he were Republican it would be a moot point...

as the voters in question vote for Republicans (get it)...

[RetroLounge]

18. It's not that the Dean Bashers don't get it

They don't WANT to get it.

That would uspet their little superiority complexes over their candidate.

But you just keep on bashing. Meanwhile the BAT grows higher...

[BeHereNow]

26. The Dean Bashers remind me of...

Ken Starr- going after the fact that Clinton
got a blow job when the REAL issue was
his CFR, Trilateral Commission and Bildeberger
affiliations.
Dean's point was that ALL of us, who are NOT
corporate elite are going to lose everthing
to the corporate facsists- whether you have
ties to the confederate flag or alien spacehip
club- we are ALL screwed on the things that MATTER.
Healthcare
Social Security
Housing
Education
Civil Liberties
Pensions
Jobs at fair pay with benefits
the list goes on...
THESE ARE THE AREAS OF PILLAGE folks.
And they affect EVERYONE.
THAT is the point of what he said.
He could have just as easliy said he wanted
to be the candidate of homosexuals or
hispanics...the point was UNITY among all
against the corporates.
THAT IS THE BATTLE, and we are losing.
BHN

[Cha]

48. Thanks! I enjoyed your post so much I "copied"

it and sent it to my e-mail in case it got "lost"!

[billbuckhead]

32. Dean fundraising now enhanced by the power of the "Stars&Bars"

Will Dean start giving away a copy of Zell's book with every donation?

[BeHereNow]

36. You missed my point entirely

true to the Ken Starr way of thinking.
For the record- I am not a Dean supporter.
Please do not continue to froth at me...
We are not on the same wave length,
nor do we share a consciousness of what
the problem is.
BHN

[RetroLounge]

37. Wow, you really don't get it. Big surprise.

Dean's fundraising is enhanced by the senseless and mis-guided and desperate attempts to smear him with a quote out of context that has been easily debunked and it just shows that the other candidates and their supporters have NOTHING to go on but lies and innuendo and some sort of stupid Political Correctness.

You Bash, we Donate. Makes ya kinda crazy-mad, doesn't it?

The real proof is that it only took a few posts before some Dean Basher brought out the Nazi card.

Sorry, nothing kills your credibility like the desperation of the Nazi card being played.

[Padraig18]

39. You just don't 'get it', do you?

This is an issue to no one but you and the other supporters of floundering candidates. America could give a rat's ass about it.

[BeHereNow]

45. Clark's Affiliation to Frank Carlucci,

Acxiom, Sirva, and Bush Sr. concern me far more.
Those corporations are far closer to the REAL
problem than Dean's affiliations.
Me?
The only candidate I have seen WITHOUT
corporate ties is Kucinich.
He alone has a record of defeating corporate
power.
Can he win? I doubt it.
We are far too busy arguing about what doesn't
matter to actually RESEARCH who the candidates
really are behind closed corporate doors.
This is why we are truly doomed.
BHN

[LoZoccolo]

86. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Zibby dibby bubba bim bim blah blah. Yipdy zipdy biddledy buzza bim bim bum.

Bill Bean bart biving baway ba bopy bof Bell's book bith bevery bonation?

Blah blah blah blah blah.

(Basically everyone knows how far the thing was taken out of context already (or could find out if they really wanted to), and all this stuff that implies he made some big racist statment is just noise.)

[Classical_Liberal]

46. Their hissy fits are massively good publicity

I hope Dean does this some more, so I have an opportunity to evangelize.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. I know the kind of guys Dean is talking about

They are the ones who have the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, commonly known as the Confederate Flag, in the back window of their pickup, held up by their gun rack. They go to high school football games and chew and spit. They have a high school education, and maybe some college, and they are just trying to make enough to feed their families. They are worried because house construction is down, the local plant has started layoffs, and the place where their wife works has told her she must now pay about three days' wages for the health insurance increase.
These are the people who don't like Bush. They are looking for someone else to support. They want someone who is smarter, and more honest than Bush. They want someone who will talk straight to them about the political mess overseas and the economic mess here at home.

I'm still for Dean, though I feel his remark was unfortunate because it could so easily be twisted around. But I think that it is VITAL that whoever the Democrats choose to run against the Shrub be someone who can fit the profile above. These are the voters who can make the difference between winning and losing.

[Padraig18]

29. Amen!

Those sorts of people are our natural allies in this coming election, and we are *IDIOTS* if we continue to gratuitously alienate them over some ridiculous issue like this!

[Toucano]

49. At what issue to we stop?

I know these guys too, and it isn't supporting the battle flag that's going to win their votes.

They are anti-choice.
They are pro-school prayer.
They're against affirmative action. They blame it for their trouble in life.

But let's not alienate them. They're more important than the African American voters Dean has trouble connecting with.

[mzmolly]

62. Dean doesn't have trouble connecting with African American voters...

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

http://www.aafordean.com/aa/index.htm

[Toucano]

79. How about the polls?

"The findings were a clear setback to Dean, who recently started courting the Black vote by saying White politicians need to raise the question of race when speaking to predominantly White audiences, not just Black ones. Although Dean was in second-place among White voters polled, 7 points behind Clark, he came in fourth with Black voters, behind Sharpton, Clark and Lieberman."

http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c1gb7772pg2-8613,00.html

I know that one is from October conducted by Gallup.

I'd say fourth place is fairly soft.

[mzmolly]

83. Well are Braun, Gephardt, Kerry, Edwards and Kucnich having trouble

reaching blacks?

I'd say Dean is doing rather well if you take into consideration he's ahead of those noted above.

"Braun, placed fifth among Blacks - behind Sharpton, Clark, Joseph Lieberman and Dean -- with 7 percent, and ahead of Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, John Edwards and last-place Dennis
Kucinich. The margin of error was plus or minus 8 percentage points for the African Americans interviewed and plus or minus 3 percentage points for White respondents."

[Toucano]

91. Yes, I'd say they are. But this thread is about Dean.

Either the others don't connect, or they aren't taken seriously or trusted.

If any of those other candidates were in first place with the general population, but 4th place with African American's, I'd say their message wasn't getting through to that segment of the population.

Just as Sharpton (number 1, right?) is having problems connecting with White America.

[mzmolly]

95. Ah, you brought up the other candidates...

And Sharpton will fall in the polls after his recent stunts.

I think Dean in 4th at this stage is pretty good.

[Toucano]

100. Oh, I am sorry

you interpreted that as bringing up other candidates. It was in a quote I provided you to prove Dean's support is soft among African Americans.

You then started your reply asking about the other candidates, which wasn't my point. Forgive me for being unclear.

You think 4th place is pretty good, I think it is soft. I guess we both agree he could be doing better.:)

[mzmolly]

129. And he could be doing far worse.

Being # 4 amongst 9 Candidates, is doing pretty good at this stage in the game as far as I'm concerned. How did Clinton do with African Americans at this stage in his run?

[SahaleArm]

149. Better than Dean I bet.

Clinton wasn't a Northeastern 'liberal', as Dean is perceived to be.

[Toucano]

80. Duplicate - sorry.

[Cha]

66. Dean is building up his connection to the

"African American voters"..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=74178

"Many Prominent Black Americans Support Howard Dean for President"

[Eloriel]

67. And while you would KEEP them alienated, and voting GOP,

how do you imagine you're going to change their minds about affirmtive action?

Plus, there's no either/or about the African American vote. There may be some who, like too many DUers who are in fact supporters of other candidates, insist on misconstruing Dean's remarks or get it handed to them by the likes of Gephardt and Kerry out of context. But as a black DUer pointed out in another thread, African Americans aren't so stupid they can't figure it out for themselves.

Eloriel

[Toucano]

85. Fair enough.

But the rednecks are smart enough to see that Dean doesn't represent their values on a variety of other issues they think are important.

[Dookus]

74. i think it's fine....

if Dean wants to go after the Confederate Flag flyers and the gun-owners. But I get sick of hearing how "liberal" he is when this is his target audience.

States rights for gun control and flying racist symbols are NOT traditional progressive values.

Again, I'm not even judging his positions on these things. I *AM* judging people who tell me I'm not "progressive" enough because I support Clark. That's BS.

[Toucano]

81. Rock on, Dookus! n/t

[Forkboy]

131. I think that's a fair point

I dont think too many people,whether they support him or not,think Dean is all that liberal.He strikes me as very centrist.

[TLM]

202. Clark supports bombing journalists...

since when are war crimes part of a progressive agenda?


Dean is reaching out and brining blacks and whites together in the south... while you would rather continue to support the racist southern strategy and use race as a wedge to seperate folks who have shared goals of good health care and good schools.

That's BS.

[Cha]

35. And Dean has the Energy and the foresight to go out

and get People into the political process who have Never even voted before.

[TLM]

201. I know a lot of these good old boys...

Country boys who are not what I'd call racist out of hand, but who are not exactly race sensitive either.


For most of these guys the stars and bars flag is more about anti-federal government views than racist views. For them it is more of a rebel thing than race thing. Some are racist to be sure, but a lot are not.

Dean is right to reach out to these folks.

[robsul82]

70. Even if Holy Joe said it...

...I'd still understand the message. It's not hard. To me, this whole issue is a bunch of failing campaigns flailing for a foothold...and Kerry too.

Later.

RJS

[TLM]

205. You have to realize that these other folks are scared shitless

Because Dean is reaching out to these people and doing so effectivly.

If Dean brings together poor southern whites, who have been voting repuke for 20 years, and poor sourthern blacks, DEan will win the south back for the dems.

That scares teh crap out of these status quo guys who have made a career out of playing these status quo conflicts to their advantage.

Dean is not afraid to take this issue on and cut right through the southern strategy.

[Toucano]

71. Winning the redneck vote

If we're really concerned about winning the redneck vote, wouldn't Dean be wiser to campaign to decriminalize marijuana?

I'm really serious. I think the time is right. The issue transcends every demographic: males/females, blacks/whites, young/less-than-young :), rich/poor, uneducated/educated, religious/heathens, management/labor. I know people from every walk of life who use marijuana.

Of course, it would alienate the pharmaceutical industry. They always turn out in record numbers, don't they?

He could point out how taxation would generate revenue. Decriminalization would save the states MAJOR money. I've always supported this issue, but I think this may be the ideal campaign to make this an issue. I think tokers even out number the religious right.

Maybe I'm dreaming...:shrug:

[Eloriel]

88. Oh, I can't help myself

From the Official Blog comments:


Here is what the confederate flag issue boild down to. I will start it. You add on your lines.

You may be a REDNECK FOR DEAN if you have a car in your front yard up on blocks and want your children to have medical coverage.

You may be a REDNECK FOR DEAN if you trip on three or more hounds on your front porch and want your children to have a good education.

http://blogcgi.deanforamerica.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=2091

ALSO, here's a link worth remembering:

Trolls for Dean
http://trolls4dean.com/

Eloriel

[Toucano]

107. That is good!

I'm glad to see some humour about the topic.

Thanks for sharing it.

[Nicholas_J]

89. Well lets look at a few other siginifcant comments

About the confederate flag:

Damned Yankees

“I went down there and gave a speech about healthcare, but all anyone wrote about was the flag.”

— Vermont Gov. and Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean on the difficulties of campaigning in South Carolina

Welcome to my world, Gov. Dean.

For years I’ve told my fellow Republicans that, if they really want to be elected president of the United States, the best thing they can do in the South Carolina primary is lose. The Confederate flag, Bob Jones University, Strom Thurmond — these are the touchstones of an electorate that, as I wrote during the 2000 GOP primary, “should not be allowed near a ballot box without adult supervision.”

Every Republican since Ronald Reagan who has won the S.C. presidential primary has gone on to lose the popular vote in November. (Bush senior in 1988 was really Reagan’s third term.) The more a politician appeals to the inmates of America’s largest asylum, the less appealing he becomes to the saner 49 states.

Every time I saw yet another Republican presidential hopeful having a “deer-in-the-headlights” moment over the Confederate flag, the death penalty for abortion providers or some other South Carolina issue, I silently admired the Democrats for being smart enough to skip our state altogether. Bill Clinton and Al Gore got to go straight from New Hampshire to super Tuesday, leapfrogging the political lunacy that has made the S.C. presidential show so entertaining for the media and excruciating for the candidates.

So I wondered as I read yet another news story about U.S. Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C., stumbling over the NAACP boycott, what genius came up with the brilliant idea of throwing Joe Lieberman and Co. into the Carolina swamp? Who was the Einstein who fast-tracked the Democrats into the same electoral ditch that keeps derailing the Republicans?

http://www.free-times.com/Usual%20Suspects/Suspects_Archive/suspects021203.html



Another article from South Carolina, indicating the position of NAACP on the Stars and Bars:

For Democrats, opposing the flag is smart, experts say, but could be a liability - especially in Southern states. The South is crucial to Democrats and, this year, a varied field of candidates hailing from North Carolina to Missouri and Massachusetts makes it especially so. As Democrats walk the line between white conservatives - whose votes they need to take the South - and their African-American base, the flag symbolizes clashing interests of different, critical constituencies. And that clash has unfurled on the boycott's wind...


Lots of people here call the Rebel flag simply a symbol of Confederate heritage - a point of pride for the defeated republic. After all, they say, the flag is just a version of the cross flown by Scottish ships to signify St. Andrew's martyrdom - a cause many here identify with. "All it is, is a heritage flag," says retiree Victor Mincey in Hamer, S.C., who hoisted the St. Andrew's cross above his yard the day the flag came off the capitol dome.

But James Gallman, president of the state NAACP conference, says the flag's appearance on the national political stage will only buoy the image of the South as a place where vestiges of discrimination and hate still have undue influence. "The Confederate flag is not a symbol of honor.... They lost the war - and now they still get to fly the flag," says Mr. Gallman.

But there is confusion over the boycott. While the NAACP got its wish to have the flag removed from the capitol dome, it's now more prominent, swaying over a Civil War memorial on Gervais Street downtown. So contentious is the issue that flag supporters installed a lighter-weight version, hoping it would unfurl even on the windless lawn.

http://news.findlaw.com/csmonitor/s/20030212/12feb2003110122.html


Other aspects of Dean's campaign itself that fly in the face of the black community and things of import to that community:

TheHutchinsonReport.Com


Earl Ofari Hutchinson

At a meeting before a scheduled African-American forum on the war in Los Angeles, a parade of speakers spoke passionately about the war. But there was a twist. They did not slam Bush as most national civil rights leaders have for the war. Instead, they urged support for American troops, and hailed the fight as a just war to topple a tyrannical regime that poses a grave threat to American security. These weren’t the disjointed rants of a handful of black conservatives woefully out of touch with black sentiment. Shortly after NAACP President Julian Bond blasted the war at an antiwar rally, he issued a statement backing the troops. Though most black veterans groups express wariness about the war, they firmly back the troops. Only a handful of the thirty-eight members of the Congressional Black Caucus voted against the recent Congressional resolution backing the war. Much is made of recent TV network polls that far more blacks than whites or Latinos oppose the war. But a February poll by the Pew Research Center found that nearly half of blacks support the military assault. In an informal website poll of more than 2000 adults by BlackAmericaweb.com on whether to reinstate the draft, one out three respondents said that they back a draft and would serve their country...

Blacks now make up one out three army enlistees. And black women make up fully half of the army’s enlisted women. The sight of the dazed and distraught black POW Shoshana Johnson on Iraqi TV highlighted the risk and peril black servicewomen face in Iraq. Also, since the mid 1990s, the number of black commissioned officers has soared. Twelve percent of the Army's officers are black. While ROTC programs have been dumped from or chased off numerous major university campuses, they have expanded at black colleges. Half of all army ROTC commissions received by blacks are awarded at 21 black colleges. The top-heavy number of blacks in the military numbers and the perception that the army is a comparative racial oasis has made blacks much more willing to support the troops, if not outright cheerlead the drive to topple Hussein. As military historians Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler wrote in their book, ``All That We Can Be: Black Leadership and Racial Integration the Army Way,'' the Army is ``the only place in American life where whites are routinely bossed around by blacks.'' It’s also assumed that since most blacks are Democrats, and assail Bush’s domestic agenda as anti-black, this automatically translates into opposition to “Bush’s war.” Many blacks do revile Bush for his attack on affirmative action, his conservative judicial appointments, his refusal to expand hate crimes legislation, support of school vouchers, meat-axe tax cuts, and the slash and burn of social programs. But they, as most Americans, are scared stiff of terrorist attacks. That fear has driven them to virtually abandon the fight against police racial profiling that dominated so much of the race debate pre-911. In polls, a majority of blacks backed profiling and the carrying of identity cards, tighter security measures as long as the targets are Arab-Americans, and not themselves.

Despite the spectacular growth of Islam among African-Americans, most blacks are Christians, and a significant number of them are conservative evangelical Christians. They harbor the same fear, resentment, and intolerance toward Muslims and Arabs as many Christian fundamentalists. The Iraq war has pitted Americans against each other, and ignited heated verbal duels over the pros and cons of Bush administration policies. Despite polls and loads of false racial myths and misassumptions, it has also done the same with blacks, though much less noisily.

http://www.afrocentricnews.com/html/ofari_iraq_black_folks.html

Another instance of Dean and the proposed boycott of South Carolina during the February fights over bringing the flag down over the South Carolina statehouse was a beautiful example of a Dean non-stance and non answer:

In one of the almost unprecedented instances of his ever being without a solution to everything, Vermont's former governor, Howard Dean, told the Times he was still deciding what to do and would defer to black advisers in South Carolina.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31092

Dean said Saturday that he opposed displaying the Confederate flag at the capitol. But he said he was not honoring the NAACP’s boycott of the state after discussing the matter with African American leaders in South Carolina.

“I think it should come down,” he said.

Dean said he decided not to honor the boycott after the head of the South Carolina’s NAACP chapter said he would not hold any of the presidential candidates to it because their presence in the state would further the cause.

“He told me he doesn’t believe presidential candidates should be held to the boycott,” Dean said. “It’s to the best advantage of his cause to get the flag off State House grounds, because we all support taking the flag down.”

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/64897

Dean basically takes a position that will not be well supported by South Carolina blacks, who make up 27 percent of Registered South Carolina Voters, but turn out in MUCH higher numbers during primaries and elections. Blacks constitute between 40-50 percent of all democratic primary voters in South Carolina, and almost as large a percentage of Democratic Voters in Missisippi, Alabama, Florida, and North Carolina.


This is another case of Candidate Dummie shoving his size 12's into his size 14 mouth.

I am glad it was Dean, as it WILL cost him votes in the south, as will his running himself as the candidate who opposed the war in Iraq.

National statistics show that inevitably, when the numbers ome in, a candidate who either supported the war with Iraq, or supported it with U.N. support will have the widest support for the nomination.

Other candidates had issues with the boycott of South Carolina in February, and if I remember, Dean stuck his foot in his mouth then as well. Regardless of what Dean meant with the curent quotes, it will cost him some votes.


Cutting the presidential field down to a manageable size
By David S. Broder
WASHINGTON POST

Anyone who covers politics for any substantial period comes to love the voters of Iowa and New Hampshire. The states that host the first delegate-selection caucuses and the first delegate-picking presidential primary are home to some of the nicest, most hospitable people in the world. They endure endless questioning by reporters and pollsters without complaint. They ply you with food and drink. And most important, they take their responsibilities as the nation's screeners of White House talent very seriously, so they listen closely to the candidates and subject them to rigorous scrutiny...


What Iowa and New Hampshire really do is eliminate the also-rans - and because they do it very efficiently, the whole country benefits from the cross-examination their voters give the candidates. Judging from my voter interviews in Wisconsin last week, so far the rest of the country has not tuned in on the Democratic contenders in Iowa or New Hampshire. But that will happen in coming weeks as the story moves from the newspapers and the Internet onto television.

Then Iowa and New Hampshire will perform their national service of cutting the field down to manageable size - whether The New York Times approves or not.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/news/opinion/7125259.htm

Since I do not support him, I certainly hope it will cost him many.


Regardless of statements about New Hamspire and Iowa, South Carolina is known among political pundits as "The KINGMAKER".

Deans statements about the confederate flag in an attempt to pull votes of the kingmaker away from Edwards is where the real desparation lies.

[mzmolly]

98. Funny no uproar by the critical Dems in February of 2003

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/dean_022103.html

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (APPLAUSE)

Also reasoned people will conclude what Jesse Jackson Jr has...

Saturday, November 1, 2003

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

March on Washington

August 28, 1963

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Dr. Howard Dean

DNC Winter meeting

February 21, 2003

"Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues -- good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing -- is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232&JServSessionIdr002=9fveksjq71.app195a&news_iv_ctrl=1301

When you say, "I hope it will hurt him" it concerns me, as he may very well be the 'one' going up against Bush. Be careful what you wish for, because hurting Dean may be hurting Democrats in the long run.

[kentuck]

96. How many DU'ers commenting here are actually from the South or...

have spent time in the South? It sounds like like a lot of people are doing some serious stereotyping...

[billbuckhead]

101. I've lived in Cartersville, Douglasville, Stone Mountain and worked in

Bremen, Marietta and Bradenton FL. I've lived in the south for 25 years. I've met ten thousands of southern rednecks. Each different as a snow flake and perhaps a majority of them were against the Confederate flag. I've dated over a dozen southern white women and none of them were for the Confederate flag. But to say that there aren't a lot of these Confederate flag wavers and then that they aren't republicans or worse, isn't telling the truth. These battle flag waving trailer park republiKKKans will never vote Dem. I saw them all the summer before last waving their flags over overpasses on I20. They are truly deadenders of Confederacy.

[ulysses]

102. hey, Bill

Just a question, since I know you're not a fan of Dean anyway - had Dean substituted a NASCAR reference for the flag reference, or had another one of the candidates made the statement that he did make, would you be as exercised as you are over this?

[billbuckhead]

105. I would have said he was smart but this shows ignorance or calculated

use of race . He should have used a different race, a Dale Earnhardt bumpersticker would have showed far more understanding of the south and rednecks in general. He could talked about a " Hunters for Bush/Cheney" bumpersticker. He could have talked about an anti-abortion bumersticker. All these bumperstickers are on more cars than Confederate battle flags. No the reason I'm so pissed is that Dean is using the Confederate flag for gain to his campaign at the expense of traditional Democratic constituentcies.

[ulysses]

108. "calculated use of race"

Come on. Show me a politician whose use of/approach to race isn't calculated to the most minute degree.

It's certainly a fair point to question the statement, but personally, I don't think he did anything more than to say in a less-veiled way what other politicians are actually saying when they talk about the southern white male vote.

All these bumperstickers are on more cars than Confederate battle flags.

Maybe in Buckhead they are. That's certainly not my experience down around Newnan & Fairburn where my inlaws live.

[billbuckhead]

110. There's more DaleEarnhardt stickers on cars than Confederate flags

In Cherokee county where I work there are an incredible amount anti-abortion stickers. There's Confederate flags allright but less than many other types of bumper stickers including Bush/Cheney ones.

[Catt03]

139. I live in South Florida

Palm Beach County, sort of a Democratic cradle in S Florida,

Guess what? There are many pro life "license plates" and billboards down here in Boca Raton and West Palm Beach!

I don't know if the Demicrats will carry Palm Beach County in 2004. They..errr...we, will really have to work hard.

[HazMat]

121. But there's already a term for that - "Nascar dads"

He could've talked about that and the Dale Earnhardt #3 bumper stickers.

But really, Dean's word selection isn't the issue. Every Democrat wants to find a way to attract Southern votes. It's that he doesn't seem to understand how divisive the flag is, and why.

[ulysses]

154. in the world of political stereotypes

he'd be talking about the same people. *We're* talking about the same people.

I'll agree that he tripped over a large cultural sore point, but I don't think that that by itself is worth the kind of outcry that we've seen.

[ScreamingMeemie]

103. I live in Detroit, but I am married to a man from Kentucky. Both

sides of his family are from the South. Does he own a Confederate flag? Yes. It's his history. He's named after a dead Confederate ancestor? Does that make him racist? Not even close. He's a man, proud of his ancestry, living in modern times. That's it...end of story...no skeletons at the Grumpy's. I think this is being blown way out of proportion, as a lot of the candidate press has been.

[HazMat]

113. It doesn't make him racist

but perhaps nostalgic about a racist era.. a time when "things were simpler" ?

Southerners always like to go on about their "ancestry". Southerners celebrating the Confederate flag is no different than if a German were to celebrate the Nazi flag. Both are symbols of hatred, oppression and genocide. One could argue that the Confederate flag represents a far greater evil, one that has gone on for hundreds of years and persists to this day.

Look, this issue is far greater than Dean. Democrats as a whole should care more about this issue. Remember, we used to be the party that stood up against hatred and bigotry ? The flying of the Confederate flag by the government is the worst kind of bigotry -- state sponsored racism. It's and endorsement of what the symbol stands for. During the civil rights era, states in the south that didn't fly the Confederate flag for a hundred years put the flag back up as a symbol of rebellion. The Confederate flag is, was and always will be a pro-slavery, pro-WASP, pro-segregation symbol. The spirit of Jefferson Davis. There's a reason why hate groups like the Klan proudly display it.. they use it to intimidate.

Even a conservative Southerner like Zell Miller opposes the Confederate flag and understands it's implications, especially to African Americans. He reaffirmed that on MTP today. It's a sad day when Zell Miller is correct on an issue that many so-called liberal Democrats are wrong on.

[seventhson]

116. You are WAAAYYY off base here Kerry fan. I should alert

but I realize that most folks will see through this blatant attempt to support Kerry through the most base appeal to racism and fear mongering.

Kerry is really sleazy to sink this low.

I still say Kerry is BFEE and THEY are the TRUE Nazis.

what utterly dismaying defecation by the Kerry camp

[HazMat]

118. Again, this issue is bigger than Kerry or Dean

As I stated, Democrats as a whole should care more about this issue. The only Dem who is really standing up to this bullshit is John Edwards. ALL of our candidates should be observing the boycott.

[ScreamingMeemie]

133. Sorry, I cannot buy that. I see it as my husband being proud of

his ancestors...that's it. It was a time in our history.

[HazMat]

150. then I take it you would have no problem

with a German being proud of the Nazi flag ? After all, its their ancestors and a time in their history also.

[ScreamingMeemie]

157. Apples and oranges. I have no problem with my husband being

proud of his name, and it's origins. You have to remember, those boys truly thought they were fighting (not owning slaves) for their way of life, and what they "thought" was right. Did my husband's family own slaves? Nope. He has a right to keep his name.

Thanks for your understanding.

[seventhson]

114. Absolutely right on Mrs. Grumpy!!!

It's a big FAT STUPID RED HERRING!

Is there a legitimate issue with what the flag represents and whether it is offensive to many? Of course! Does that mean it means the same thing (the epitomy of racism) to all who display it? Of course not. It does not mean that to all "Black" people either.

This is just desperate politics because African Americans WILL vote for the DOCTOR!


Put the Lime in the Coconut and CALL the DOCTOR!!!

He's got what we need for what ails us!!!

[Toucano]

104. Lived in South Carolina for 12 years.

GO COCKS! I still have family there.

[angee_is_mad]

153. BLK Female North Carolinian

And yes I use to attend some of his local meetups and was severely disappointed. Not neccessarily about the lack of minorities there, but coolness toward the minorites at the meetups. It made me wonder is this how my grandmother felt in the 40's and 50's Present but Invisible.

[Hep]

181. I'd love to know your point

I don't know which meetups you've attended, but what did you expect? How was this coolness toward minorities manifested? No one would talk to you? People refused to answer your questions?

I'm disappointed that the meetups happen on Wednesdays, a traditional church day for a lot of folks in the African American community. But we've made a concerted effort to establish meetups in black neighborhoods, and we have minorities, both latino and african american, taking charge in hosting meetups and doing tons of other things.

I don't know what happens at every meetup in NC, but we all do want to know what turned people off so we can do better. Most of us are very new at this. If you share what you expected vs what you got, we can improve things.

[CWebster]

109. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

Is this still going on?

Our front runner is being ripped to shreds by supporters of other candidates because they KNOW their candidate has less of a chance.

With the way it is going Bush numbers will be tanking by the minute -and all you can do is make his job easier?

[seventhson]

112. LOOK!!! If U.S. Congressman JESSE JACKSON JR. says DEAN'S COOL!

Then how in hell is the richest man in the Senate or ANYONE else going to seriously make an issue out of it.

It is not just a lie but it is a DAMN LIE that Kerry and the others seem now to haven fallen into Rovian mode with in order to try to SCARE "Black" folk away from Dean

But JESSE JACKSON JR. should know what the hell he is talking about when he says this is bullshit.

It is a group of "liberal" "white" people trying to scare "black" people away from Dean.

Fortunately most "Black" people are smarter than guys like Kerry, who seems to think everybody is a sucker.

[billbuckhead]

123. Dean legitimized the Confederate flag. At least admit reality.

Facts are stubborn things. Even Zell Miller wouldn't have said what spinDoctor Dean said.

[HazMat]

126. don't expect "the cult" to care

They'll follow wherever their leader goes, even if it's to a far right position (Affirmative action, medicare, confed flag, guns, etc).

Expect those confederate decals to be on Jettas and Saabs soon. As I've said over and over, the Rockefeller Republicans faux liberals are the real "loony left" who follow anything, who make real liberals look like wackos, who eventually end up on the far right when the trend/fake movement/excitement is over.

[Forkboy]

134. What about the people who agree with Dean

but aren't Dean supporters?

So much for "the cult".

[seventhson]

141. I am no Dean cultist

BUT I thoroughly oppose the Skull and Bones cultists Kerry and Bush and pity their followers.

I came to Dean reluctantly after Gore folded up his tent.

I am no cultist.

And so I can see a Rovian spin on this a mile away.

Dean is a Doctor. He speaks plainly - to the point.

He is not always as clear as we would like because he tries to keep it simple for us (after all, most of his patients - most Americans_ are pretty undereducated and not too well versed on the fine details of modern politics). He also likes to make his points with clear expressions which are easy to visualize.

We have all seen the pickups with the Confederate Flags (we have them in New York State as well as the South).

We know the "type" more or less.

And we should ALL know that these are NOT the folks who are making a bundle and doing WELL because they support Bush.

These people are struggling and their kids are going off to die BECAUSE they fell for the BUSHIT.

We need to bring them back into the tent and get them right.

BUSH is the enemy of democracy and freedom. NOT the Democrats or people of color or even northern liberals.

Dean is 100% right on this issue and I am glad he said it even if a lot of people are too dense to get it or get it right.

[seventhson]

137. You are the Pot calling the Kettle Black

But in this case Dean is the opposite of what you describe and Kerry is the epitomy of it.

Nice try though.


I think African Americans would WAAYY more want to unite with southerners to defeat Bush than unite with the rich to defeat the poor.

[seventhson]

132. No! He legitimized the fact that there are people who display that flag

that Democrats need to appeal to and deal with.

Saying what he said in NO WAY legitimizes a flag which is ALREADY legitimate for millions of Americans.

It may be offensive to millions of Americans too.

But it symbolizes MANY things: not ONLY racism.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

This sounds like white people arguing over who is the bigger liberal and it is damn sad.

Dean says what he means and does not bullshit around.

It is namby pamby to deny the truth of what he says: poor rednecks and southerners should NOT be supporting Bush.

And if wee want to BEAT Bush we progressives and lefties and liberals need to find common ground with them on SOME things even if it is NOT on everything.

[TLM]

206. How did he legitimize the flag... by saying it exists?

By saying he wants to bring poor whites and poor blacks together as Dr. King said he dreamed would one day be possible?


Dean said he wants to reach out to those guys witht eh confederate flags in their windows because those guys have been voting repuke for a long time and are waking up to the fact they've been lied to and ripped off by the republicans.

Dean is right to do this, and no amount of desperate hate from the losing candidates or their supporters will change that.

[mmonk]

120. Thread #3

My position that his comment is a mistake that might hurt him has legs I believe.

[CWebster]

124. You wish Clark supporter

but you are in the minority.

Check the poll. Nice try.

[mmonk]

128. All I know is

I left the site this afternoon to watch the Panthers lose on TV and my son and I drove out to the RBC Center to watch hockey. When I get back home, my wife is talking with her dad on the phone about how he (her dad which is an average southern voter) thought Dean was going to be hurt over this in the south. Then I come back to this site to see it live and well still. But you stick with polls and we'll see who's right.

[KaraokeKarlton]

138. Here is a link to the history of the Confederate flags

The battle flag is the one most are familiar with. Learn where it came from here:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate3.html

[seventhson]

143. Flags really are useless pieces of cloth aren't they?

That is why I got in trouble for refusing all my life to salute a damn piece of cloth.

I will pledge allegiance to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. But a flag is just a piece of cloth which represents different things to different people.

Madison Avenue. Branding. That is all. From the Swastika to the Stars and Bars to the Stars and Stripes -- they are all just fancy symbolism for ideas and principles.

But it is the PRINCIPLES which are important - not the "symbols" that allegedly represent the principles. These are really different for everybody just as the swastika, the broken cross, way predates any notion of fascism.

Flags meanings are really almost too amorphous to be that significant.

Bush and Kerry use the Skull and Bones Logo (whatever)- the Jolly Roger - the POISON symbol.

But - the fact that the anti-Dean worshippers of Rovian spin efforts have gone wild about this shows what we re ALL up against.

Meaningless bullshit and diversions masquerading as policy debates.

And 19 more died today in Iraq while we piss away our time debating which SYMBOL's utilizers we should embrace or reject in the effort to unseat the Bush regime of death and fascism.

Dumbass IMHO.

[mmonk]

147. Now that's spin

It was a mistake.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

158. it spun my head around - I'm dizzy now

[Catt03]

148. At least Dean is talking about

the issues that enrage some of the South, like the flag.

I agree with Dean. We need to get at least some of the guys that drive pick up trucks and give them an issue they can love.

Let's see...so far Dean has taken the gun issue off the table, one of my issues by the way; I'm for gun control; is neutralizing the flag issue, (another topic I feel strongly about); is more moderate than I am and, at times, is too angry for me.

However, I would vote for him in a heartbeat. I would take a moderate, a semi quasi moderate or an whatever label given, to defeat George Bush in 2004. If not, the consequences are unthinkable.

[robbedvoter]

145. What is this "desperation" that keeps popping up here? Reminds me of W:

"They are attacking us in Iraq because they are desperate"
yes, and we hate all of youse because we are gealous....
I am sorry, but this looks like the Free Republic now. Dean eats babies - "what's the recipee?" his supporters want to know.
Why didn't I object when remarks first made? Cuz I didn't know, that's why. It would have saved me some effort attending a dean rally in NYC. Because I tried to see if I can get over the NRA A rating, but didn't know about his pandering to confederats (or his statement: GORE LOST BECAUSE OF THE NRA (the implication being in my book that to the victor belong the spoils)

[newyawker99]

155. kick

[Q]

156. Looks like we're fighting the civil war all over again...

- Confederate flag doesn't represent racism? Yeah...and the swastika is just a tibetan good luck charm.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

159. it's a good thing the North won because

if the South had, I wonder just how much worse this sort of 'debate' would be - jeez, people - yes, the confederate flag represents racism and, yes, the swastika represents nazism - get over it - let Dr. Dean know about it - move on - ABB.

[robbedvoter]

160. They wanted us to get over winning the 2000 election, but they didn't

get over losing that damn civil war. You're right - the war is not over - in fact it's them controlling Washington. The Heritage Foundation, Ashcroft and Bushco are representing these people well. Do they need MORE representation? Pandering?
Anyway, bush has got the bigot vote all sewn up.

[retyred]

162. WOW, has everyone noticed

how the right has lambasted Dean for his flag remark? Me neither. I would've thought that with what happened to Lott and Rush, that the right wingers would've been all over their biggest threat to bush's election bid. Oh well....You go Dean!



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[ForestsBeatBushes]

163. heh heh heh

Clark/Edwards might be nice . . .

[robbedvoter]

165. They are defending dean fiercely: WSJ, Weekly Standard, Moony Times, Faux

here's a doozie of a title from the NY Post:
DEMS UNCIVIL OVER DEAN'S DIXIE GAFFE
http://www.nypost.com/cgi-bin/printfriendly.pl

Bad, bad democrats! :spank:

[retyred]

175. Interesting!

Now why would the right wing rags defend Dean? Surely they couldn't want him to win the nomination could they? again, interesting.




Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[David Zephyr]

167. As A Dean Supporter, I Find His Confederate Flag Statement Sickening.

I've been away from the internet all weekend long dealing with the clean up from the fire.

However, I wanted to post here as soon as I could the following:

I have given Dean hundreds of dollars and helped locally here in Southern California.

I'm not giving another penny until this shit is cleared up quickly.

His statement is insulting to just about everyone.

It not only is offensive to minorites, but also dismisses the millions of Southern White Males who do NOT have confederate flags on their vehicles and never would.

Simply pathetic and sickening.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

169. I want to applaud you for this post.

You seem to be alone in all the DU contingent for Dean and so this took courage.

None of us agrees with everything our candidates have done, yet, it seemed almost cult-like in the way not one person for Dean would admit that what he did regarding the confederate flag was just plain wrong.

I admire you tremendously.

[David Zephyr]

172. No Courage.

But thank you anyway.

Dean has, up until now, ran the best campaign hand down. From a pragmatic viewpoint, that deserves respect. It also spotlights how uttlerly dismal the other candidates' campaigns have been.

Dean also, like Kucinich, Graham, Mosely-Braun and Sharpton have been consistent against the War in Iraq. And they were all right. The others were wrong, no matter how much they try to "clarify" their earlier positions.

Kucinich and Moseley-Braun and Sharpton have my support for their universal approach to healthcare. The rest of the candidates, including Dean, have all pandered to the HMO's and Insurance and Pharmaceutical corporations which merits condemnation from the Left.

Gephardt, without question, along with Kucinich have the strongest credentials with regards to labor and protecting workers. Their opposition to NAFTA when it counted merits praise.

I am not a groupie for any candidate or politican. When the Democrats nominate someone like the great Eugene Debs, pehaps I'll consider it.

Howard Dean is still probably the best candidate to beat Bush, but this kind of shit isn't very "presidential", is it?

And Dean supporters do him no service by rallying to defend this very lame and offensive comment.

[1songbird]

176. Well said.

[Hep]

187. I'll stop defending it

When you provide me with some clarity in your position. WHat's offensive about it? What's lame about it?

[Hep]

186. You're just saying this now?

Have you never heard his stump speech?

I don't find it offensive. None of the African Americans at Falls Church VA found it offensive. None of the black folks in my community who come to meetups find it ofensive.

But then none of those people wish to exclude confederate flag apologists from healthcare coverage or educational opportunities.

[TLM]

207. Dean said the same thing he's been saying for months

about working to undermine the southern strategy by bringing poor southern whites together with poor southern blacks on the issues they share like healthcare and schools, rather than deviding them on race as the republicans want to do.

"It not only is offensive to minorites, but also dismisses the millions of Southern White Males who do NOT have confederate flags on their vehicles and never would."

Dean noted the confederate flag because those are the folks who've been voting republican... Dean wasn't talking about whites in the south already voting democratic.

What is it you find so offensive abotu Dean saying he wants to reach out to those folks with the confederate flag decal in the pick up window?

[meow2u3]

170. Read between the lines

Dean meant he wanted the votes of Southern working-class white men because it this constituency continues to vote Republican, mainly because the Repukes pander to race and behavioral issues.

Dean is using a stereotype to illustrate that working-class white, especially non-union, have continually been conned by Repukes, who abuse the culture war to divert their attention from class/economic issues to exploit them.

It may sound like a crass remark on the surface, but beneath the surface, it's just an inept attempt to reach out to Southerners.

[David Zephyr]

173. Very Inept.

Does he actually believe that the majority of southern white males ride around with confederate flags on their pickups?

As a Dean supporter, I am simply astonished by the ignorance and insensitivity behind the statement.

[TLM]

208. Are you seriously this out of touch?

"Does he actually believe that the majority of southern white males ride around with confederate flags on their pickups?"


NO... but the ones who vote republican and bought into the southern strategy DO, and the is the group Dean was talking about. Dean was not talking about all southern white guys, because a fair number fo southern white guys ALREDY vote democratic.

Dean was talking about those poor white guys in the south who are waking up to the fact they've been sold a bill of goods, and that republicans have been using race to scare them into voting against their own best interests.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

177. Anyone living in the south knows the flags are here.

And they are everywhere. If you can't understand Dean's logical, accurate portrayal of the white males who might vote Dem and he is trying to reach, then you don't live in the south where it is painfully obvious who he is talking to.

Why do you attack the man for being honest?

The confederate flag is not the nazi symbol and I wish some DUers would take the time to actually visit the south and ask southerners, even black southerners how they feel about it.

[1songbird]

184. I grew up in the south and have lived in many other places.

I've seen that flag in many other states. I don't know any AAs that regard that flag as anything other than a reminder of the hell our lives were at that time. It may very well mean something to others but I know what it means to me every time I see it.

[Hep]

188. What's that?

What does it mean to you?

[1songbird]

218. Let me just be honest

and say that whenever I see that flag, I feel that the flag wavers themselves are sending a message that they approved of slavery and in fact want to return to that way of life. This is what it means to me when I see that damn flag.

[Ripley]

189. A year or two ago Mississippi had a referendum on the flag.

And the majority said the Confederate flag on the state flag should remain there. As I recall a large number of black Miss. citizens voted "yes."

I am not saying it doesn't represent bad things to you. However, you might want to consider that it doesn't seem to bring out the horror in a lot of the blacks who remain living in the south as it does to those who have moved away. Perhaps it is because they don't feel threatened by the guy who has the flag on his bumpersticker. They must not think the symbol in and of itself is a threat of violence towards them.

[1songbird]

219. Yes and some of these same Mississippians

both black and white stood by Trent Lott and said that he's a good man and didn't mean anything negative by his comments about segregation. Also there is nothing about the flag that I fear, it is just a sad reminder that the struggle continues.....

[Hep]

179. Gep and Kerry have a problem? BIG SHOCK!

NON issue alert! Let the BLIND FLAILING of DESPERATE establishment D's begin.

Dean haters line up to the right, Dean lovers line up to the left. Tickets, $50. PPV $129.

Gep and Kerry really don't get the south do they?

[Ripley]

180. They need to actually drive around the south with their eyes open.

Instead of saying "to hell with the south" as they so often do.

I cannot believe I am agreeing with Zell frikin' Miller on one thing, but I do and that is it. The northern liberals love to say shit that is highly ill-informed and insulting to southerners, then blame it all on the southerners for not voting for them.

Dean is trying to make an in-road. But let's sic the dogs on him shall we?

[Hep]

182. Exactly!

The desperate contenders can't understand what's going on so they misrepresent and lash out. I can tell you that he has been making that comment for MONTHS, and NO ONE who has come to a meetup has questioned it at all. Everyone that I've spoken to in NC understands what he's saying and appreciate the effort.

I guess we're all a bunch of dixiecrat bigots or something.

[Ripley]

183. I wondered the same thing...

Why are they just now bringing that up? It must be the latest blastfax from the "let's move center" crowd...paint Dean as a racist. What I don't get is how that will help anyone. Is it an effort to push Sharpton up in the polls? Why bother.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

195. New developments: C-flag stands for working class and blacks were

voting just dandy during FDR (get this guy a history consultant!)

Dean questioned about flag comment
http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22668055.html



Dean said he has used the description to refer to working class, white Southerners who vote Republican when it's not in their interest to do so because of GOP policies such as tax cuts benefiting wealthy Americans.

"What Franklin Roosevelt did was to get the Southern white working class to vote with the Southern African-American working class," said Dean, about the former Democratic president.

[Hep]

197. You shared that in your thread

and even the other Dean bashers are calling you out for it.

[robbedvoter]

203. Not the part about C-flag defining the working class in the south.

I thought that belongs topically here. So, pray tell this yankee: are all white working class people in the South sporting a confederate flag? I rarely ventured below the Mason-Dixon line and admit my ignorance on the matter.

[TLM]

210. Please stop lying... what dean said was that he mentioned the flag

refering to "working class, white Southerners who vote Republican"


Not simply southern whites or the working class in the south... but working class whites who vote republican.

Dean is reaching out to the main targets of the southern strategy to undermine it by bringing those white together with blacks on their shared goals...

ANd the working class, white Southerners who vote Republican are exactly the guys who sport that confederate flag. And these are the same folks who've been had by the republicans.

Dean is right to reach out to them.

You are wrong to continue to push the southern strategy.

[aquart]

200. He wants to be President of Americans who disagree with him

Unlike the Republicans who only represent those who nod yes to whatever lie they tell.

He intends to be President even of the Americans who hate his guts.

What a terrible thing to say, indeed.

[robbedvoter]

204. He's losing me in the process. As for gaining others...see for yourself:

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/7176381.htm



If Dean has confused some Democrats with his comments, he hasn’t helped himself with those who honor the flag, said Don Gordon of Lexington, commander of the largest S.C. chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Gordon considers Dean’s comments an attempt to pander to conservative white men that will not be appreciated.

He points to Dean’s earlier comments on the Confederate battle flag, in February, when the candidate was asked if he thought it should fly above the S.C. State House.

At the time Dean said: “I understand the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage for some folks. ... But there are also a very significant number of folks in this state to whom it is a symbol of oppression and slavery. I don’t think you can have symbols like that be flown on the State House ... If someone wants to fly that from their house, that’s their private business. But I just don’t see how that fits into state government.”

“Dean is really guilty of double-speak,” said Gordon. “He has denigrated our Southern ancestry.”

[TLM]

212. LOL!!! Man you folks can't keep your bashing straight...

First Dean is validating the c-flag... now he's denigrating the southern ancestry.

First you put up half a quote to say Dean was saying that the c-flag was a state's rights issue, and now here's the other half where DEan says that the state shouldn't fly it.

Maybe you need to all go back to the meme blog and get your shit straight?

[mbali]

209. Does anyone believe that

Paul Wellstone, from whom Dean stole the "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" line, would EVER have made such a comment, much less make a show or reaching out to southern white bigots for support?

[TLM]

211. Do you think that Wellstone would work hard

to keep the guys with the c-flag decals from having healthcare or good schools for their kids?

Or would he reach out to everybody and try to bring them together on their shared goals, as Dean is doing?

[mbali]

213. How does not actively recruiting bigots equate with

working hard to keep them from having healthcare or good schools?

On the other hand, did you ever see or hear Paul Wellstone insist that we had to reach out to the confederate crowd in order to guarantee electoral success? And I dare a guess that Wellstone was at LEAST as intelligent and politically savvy as Howard Dean.

[mbali]

214. How does not actively recruiting bigots equate with

working hard to keep them from having healthcare or good schools?

On the other hand, did you ever see or hear Paul Wellstone insist that we had to reach out to the confederate crowd in order to guarantee electoral success? And I dare a guess that Wellstone was at LEAST as intelligent and politically savvy as Howard Dean.

[mbali]

215. How does not actively recruiting bigots equate with

working hard to keep them from having healthcare or good schools?

On the other hand, did you ever see or hear Paul Wellstone insist that we had to reach out to the confederate crowd in order to guarantee electoral success? And I dare a guess that Wellstone was at LEAST as intelligent and politically savvy as Howard Dean.

[mbali]

216. Sorry about the multiple response

computer glitch.