Kerry v. Dean: Who is more liberal?

[WilliamPitt]

The sites provided below have links within each category to get candidate quotes on the related issues. Who's more liberal iyho?

===

John Kerry on Abortion

No criminalization of a woman's right to choose. (Jun 7)
Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Voted NO on disallowing overseas military abortions. (May 1999)

John Kerry on Budget & Economy

No excuse for special tax cuts for the rich. (Jun 17)
Voted NO on prioritizing national debt reduction below tax cuts. (Apr 2000)
Voted NO on 1998 GOP budget. (May 1997)
Voted NO on Balanced-budget constitutional amendment. (Mar 1997)

John Kerry on Civil Rights

Include a sunset provision in the Patriot Act. (Jun 17)
Voted YES on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping. (Oct 2001)
Voted YES on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on setting aside 10% of highway funds for minorities & women. (Mar 1998)
Voted NO on ending special funding for minority & women-owned business. (Oct 1997)
Voted NO on prohibiting same-sex marriage. (Sep 1996)
Voted YES on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation. (Sep 1996)
Voted NO on Amendment to prohibit flag burning. (Dec 1995)
Voted NO on banning affirmative action hiring with federal funds. (Jul 1995)
Shift from group preferences to economic empowerment of all. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Corporations

Voted NO on restricting rules on personal bankruptcy. (Jul 2001)

John Kerry on Crime

Voted YES on $1.15 billion per year to continue the COPS program. (May 1999)
Voted NO on limiting death penalty appeals. (Apr 1996)
Voted NO on limiting product liability punitive damage awards. (Mar 1996)
Voted YES on restricting class-action lawsuits. (Dec 1995)
Voted YES on repealing federal speed limits. (Jun 1995)
Voted NO on mandatory prison terms for crimes involving firearms. (May 1994)
Voted NO on rejecting racial statistics in death penalty appeals. (May 1994)
More funding and stricter sentencing for hate crimes. (Apr 2001)
Require DNA testing for all federal executions. (Mar 2001)

John Kerry on Drugs (tee hee hee, I find that funny)

Voted NO on increasing penalties for drug offenses. (Nov 1999)
Voted NO on spending international development funds on drug control. (Jul 1996)

John Kerry on Education

Voted YES on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
Voted YES on funding student testing instead of private tutors. (May 2001)
Voted YES on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction. (Apr 2001)
Voted NO on Educational Savings Accounts. (Mar 2000)
Voted NO on allowing more flexibility in federal school rules. (Mar 1999)
Voted NO on education savings accounts. (Jun 1998)
Voted NO on school vouchers in DC. (Sep 1997)
Voted NO on $75M for abstinence education. (Jul 1996)
Voted NO on requiring schools to allow voluntary prayer. (Jul 1994)
Voted YES on national education standards. (Feb 1994)
Offer every parent Charter Schools and public school choice. (Aug 2000)
Three R’s: $35B for Reinvestment,Reinvention,Responsibility. (Jan 2001)

John Kerry on Energy & Oil

Invest in advancing secure forms of energy instead of oil. (Jun 17)
Led effort to try to raise fuel efficiency standards. (May 3)
Create new energy sources to end Mideast dependency. (May 2002)
Voted YES on targeting 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010. (Jun 10)
Voted YES on removing consideration of drilling ANWR from budget bill. (Mar 19)
Voted NO on drilling ANWR on national security grounds. (Apr 2002)
Voted NO on replacing CAFE standards within 15 months. (Mar 2002)
Voted NO on preserving budget for ANWR oil drilling. (Apr 2000)
Voted YES on keeping CAFE fuel efficiency standards. (Sep 1999)
Voted NO on defunding renewable and solar energy. (Jun 1999)
Voted NO on approving a nuclear waste repository. (Apr 1997)
Voted NO on do not require ethanol in gasoline. (Aug 1994)
Supports tradable emissions permits for greenhouse gases. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Environment

Safeguard the environment and grow the economy. (Jun 17)
Voted NO on confirming Gale Norton as Secretary of Interior. (Jan 2001)
Voted NO on more funding for forest roads and fish habitat. (Sep 1999)
Voted NO on transportation demo projects. (Mar 1998)
Voted YES on reducing funds for road-building in National Forests. (Sep 1997)
Voted YES on terminating desert protection in California. (Oct 1994)
Voted YES on requiring EPA risk assessments. (May 1994)
Reduce liability for hazardous waste cleanup. (May 2001)

John Kerry on Families & Children

Fund Head Start to leave no child behind. (Sep 4)
Voted YES on restricting violent videos to minors. (May 1999)
Give parents tools to balance work and family. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Foreign Policy

Voted YES on enlarging NATO to include Eastern Europe. (May 2002)
Voted YES on killing a bill for trade sanctions if China sells weapons. (Sep 2000)
Voted NO on cap foreign aid at only $12.7 billion. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on limiting the President's power to impose economic sanctions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on limiting NATO expansion to only Poland, Hungary & Czech. (Apr 1998)
Voted YES on $17.9 billion to IMF. (Mar 1998)
Voted NO on Strengthening of the trade embargo against Cuba. (Mar 1996)
Voted YES on ending Vietnam embargo. (Jan 1994)
Progressive Internationalism: globalize with US pre-eminence. (Aug 2000)
Multi-year commitment to Africa for food & medicine. (Apr 2001)

John Kerry on Free Trade

FTAA needs more labor and environmental standards. (Sep 4)
Fix NAFTA-canceling it would be disastrous. (Sep 4)
Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand. (May 3)
Voted YES on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
Voted YES on granting normal trade relations status to Vietnam. (Oct 2001)
Voted YES on removing common goods from national security export rules. (Sep 2001)
Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China. (Sep 2000)
Voted YES on expanding trade to the third world. (May 2000)
Voted YES on renewing 'fast track' presidential trade authority. (Nov 1997)
Voted YES on fast track trading authority. (Nov 1997)
Voted YES on imposing trade sanctions on Japan for closed market. (May 1995)
Build a rule-based global trading system. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Government Reform

Flag and patriotism belong to all Americans. (Jun 17)
Voted YES on banning "soft money" contributions and restricting issue ads. (Mar 2002)
Voted NO on allow signatures for voter registration instead of photo IDs. (Feb 2002)
Voted YES on McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform. (Apr 2001)
Voted YES on limiting funding for the National Endowment for the Arts. (Aug 1999)
Voted YES on cloture of 1998 McCain-Feingold overhaul of campaign finance. (Feb 1998)
Voted YES on favoring 1997 McCain-Feingold overhaul of campaign finance. (Oct 1997)
Voted YES on Approving the presidential line-item veto. (Mar 1996)
Voted NO on banning more types of Congressional gifts. (Jul 1995)
Voluntary public financing for all general elections. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Gun Control

Voted YES on background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations. (May 1999)
Voted NO on loosening license & background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
Voted NO on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks. (Jul 1998)
Prevent unauthorized firearm use with "smart gun" technology. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Health Care

Cover more citizens with health plan like Congress gets. (May 3)
Lack of accessible health care is a disgrace. (May 2002)
Voted YES on allowing importation of Rx drugs from Canada. (Jul 2002)
Voted YES on allowing patients to sue HMOs & collect punitive damages. (Jun 2001)
Voted NO on funding GOP version of Medicare prescription drug benefit. (Apr 2001)
Voted YES on including prescription drugs under Medicare. (Jun 2000)
Voted NO on limiting self-employment health deduction. (Jul 1999)
Voted YES on increasing funds for Medicare prescriptions. (Mar 1999)
Voted YES on increasing tobacco restrictions. (Jun 1998)
Voted NO on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Voted YES on Medicare means-testing. (Jun 1997)
Voted YES on medical savings acounts. (Apr 1996)
Establish "report cards" on HMO quality of care. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Homeland Security

No new generation of nuclear weapons. (Sep 4)
Automatic citizenship to immigrants who serves in army. (Sep 4)
Voted YES on adopting the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on allowing another round of military base closures. (May 1999)
Voted NO on cutting nuclear weapons below START levels. (May 1999)
Voted YES on deploying National Missile Defense ASAP. (Mar 1999)
Voted YES on military pay raise of 4.8%. (Feb 1999)
Voted NO on deploying missile defense as soon as possible. (Sep 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting same-sex basic training. (Jun 1998)
Voted NO on favoring 36 vetoed military projects. (Oct 1997)
Voted YES on banning chemical weapons. (Apr 1997)
Voted NO on considering deploying NMD, and amending ABM Treaty. (Jun 1996)
Voted NO on 1996 Defense Appropriations. (Sep 1995)

John Kerry on Immigration

Amnesty to anyone here over 5 or 6 years. (Sep 4)
Voted NO on allowing more foreign workers into the U.S. for farm work. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on visas for skilled workers. (May 1998)
Voted NO on limit welfare for immigrants. (Jun 1997)

John Kerry on Infrastructure

Voted YES on Internet sales tax moratorium. (Oct 1998)
Voted YES on telecomm deregulation. (Feb 1996)
Chief information officer to digitize federal government. (Aug 2000)
Promote internet via Congressional Internet Caucus. (Jan 2001)

John Kerry on Jobs

Jump start jobs at home via energy independence. (Sep 4)
Voted NO on repealing Clinton's ergonomic rules on repetitive stress. (Mar 2001)
Voted NO on killing an increase in the minimum wage. (Nov 1999)
Voted NO on allowing workers to choose between overtime & comp-time. (May 1997)
Voted NO on replacing farm price supports. (Feb 1996)

John Kerry on Principles & Values

Favorite song: Bruce Springsteen, "No Surrender.". (Sep 9)
Need a president who won't write laws only for contributors. (Sep 9)
Contest between common sense values and extreme ideologues. (Jun 7)
I'm talking about things that matter to people. (May 3)
It is time for this country to ask again, why not? (May 3)
Religious affiliation: Catholic. (Nov 2000)
Supports Hyde Park Declaration of "Third Way" centrism. (Aug 2000)
Member of Democratic Leadership Council. (Nov 2000)
New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate. (Nov 2000)
Member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition. (Jan 2001)

John Kerry on Social Security

Don't threaten Social Security on Wall Street trading block. (May 2002)
Voted NO on Social Security Lockbox & limiting national debt. (Apr 1999)
Voted NO on allowing Roth IRAs for retirees. (May 1998)
Voted NO on allowing personal retirement accounts. (Apr 1998)
Voted NO on deducting Social Security payments on income taxes. (May 1996)
Create Retirement Savings Accounts. (Aug 2000)

John Kerry on Tax Reform

We're tired of being trickled on--Middle class tax cuts now. (Jun 7)
Voted NO on $350 billion in tax breaks over 11 years. (May 23)
Voted NO on cutting taxes by $1.35 trillion over 11 years. (May 2001)
Voted YES on reducing marriage penalty instead of cutting top tax rates. (May 2001)
Voted YES on increasing tax deductions for college tuition. (May 2001)
Voted NO on eliminating the 'marriage penalty'. (Jul 2000)
Voted NO on across-the-board spending cut. (Oct 1999)
Voted NO on $792B tax cuts. (Jul 1999)
Voted NO on requiring super-majority for raising taxes. (Apr 1998)
Voted NO on FY99 tax cuts. (Apr 1998)

John Kerry on War & Peace

De-Americanize Iraq: the exit strategy is victory. (Sep 9)
Vote for war was needed to push Saddam on inspectors. (Sep 9)
$87B for Iraq only when internationalization is addressed. (Sep 9)
Don't miss 3rd opportunity in Iraq to bring in UN. (Sep 4)
Don't send more US troops to Iraq-share power & share burden. (Sep 4)
Against a misapplied blanket pre-emptive doctrine. (Jun 17)
Intelligence information should not be manipulated. (Jun 17)
Disarm Saddam, but war should be a last resort. (May 3)
Preferred diplomacy, but supported invading Iraq. (May 3)
Vietnam didn't threaten US; US war crimes did. (Apr 1971)
Vietnam war was criminal hypocrisy and tore apart US. (Apr 1971)
Voted YES on authorizing use of military force against Iraq. (Oct 2002)
Voted NO on allowing all necessary forces and other means in Kosovo. (May 1999)
Voted YES on authorizing air strikes in Kosovo. (Mar 1999)
Voted NO on ending the Bosnian arms embargo. (Jul 1995)
Condemns anti-Muslim bigotry in name of anti-terrorism. (Oct 2001)

John Kerry on Welfare & Poverty

Voted YES on welfare block grants. (Aug 1996)
Voted YES on eliminating block grants for food stamps. (Jul 1996)
Voted NO on allowing state welfare waivers. (Jul 1996)
Voted YES on welfare overhaul. (Sep 1995)
Finish welfare reform by moving able recipients into jobs. (Aug 2000)

http://issues2002.org/Senate/John_Kerry.htm

====================================

Howard Dean on Abortion

Abortion is none of the government's business. (Nov 2002)
Partial birth abortion ok to protect the mother. (Nov 2002)
Favors abortion rights. (Nov 2002)

Howard Dean on Budget & Economy

Politicians promising everything causes budget deficit. (Sep 25)
Balance budget, even if unpopular. (Sep 25)
Republicans haven't balanced a federal budget in 34 years. (May 17)
Stand up to Bush for a balanced budget. (May 3)
Social justice with fiscal responsibility. (Nov 2002)
Fiscally to the right of "borrow-and-spend" Bush. (Nov 2002)
Regional transportation network to foster trade & economy. (Jul 2000)
Bankruptcy reform: limit Chapter 7; protect states' role. (Feb 2001)
Uphold commitments to states before other spending. (Sep 2001)

Howard Dean on Civil Rights

Passed civil unions, despite it being unpopular. (Sep 25)
Affirmative action counters built-in hiring biases. (Sep 9)
Profiling doesn't work. (Sep 4)
Patriot Act shows reckless disregard of civil liberties. (Jun 17)
Supported civil unions for same-sex couples. (Nov 2002)
Support principles embodied in the Equal Rights Amendment. (Feb 2001)

Howard Dean on Corporations

Corporate America is insensitive to plight of middle class. (Sep 25)

Howard Dean on Crime

Replace overzealous capital crime trials with fair trials. (Jun 17)
Re-evaluate and reform federal and state death penalty. (Jun 17)
Invest in social programs to avoid investing in prisons. (Nov 2002)
Supports flexible federal block grants for crime programs. (Sep 2001)

Howard Dean on Drugs (tee hee hee, I find that funny again)

More federal funding for all aspects of Drug War. (Aug 2000)

Howard Dean on Education

Bush's "No Child Left Behind" is an unfunded mandate. (May 17)
Don't let Congress dictate definitions of school prayer. (Nov 2002)
GOP education bill imposes an unfunded mandate on states. (Nov 2002)
Supported Act 60's controversial statewide education fund. (Nov 2002)
No-Child-Left-Behind is Every-School-Board-Left-Behind. (Nov 2002)
School Choice
Under no circumstances abandon the public schools. (Nov 2002)
Apply VT's limited standards for failing schools, not GOP's. (Nov 2002)
Improve and invest in public schools. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Energy & Oil

Help developing countries reduce greenhouse gases. (Jan 14)
Our energy policy is one of our biggest security threats. (Nov 2002)
Voluntary partnerships reduce greenhouse gases economically. (Aug 2000)
Kyoto Treaty must include reductions by all countries. (Aug 2000)
Create Regional Emissions Registry for GHG trading. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Environment

Free trade must include environmental standards. (Apr 15)
No need to poison ourselves in order to have growth. (Nov 2002)
Eliminate mercury releases by 2003. (Sep 2000)
More state autonomy on brownfields & Superfund cleanups. (Aug 2001)
Support State Revolving Loan Fund for flexible Clean Water. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Families & Children

Think long-term to benefit our children. (Nov 2002)
Encourage fathers' participation in child-raising. (Sep 2001)
Federal funds & state involvement in fatherhood initiatives. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Foreign Policy

Intertwine into alliances, to create international stability. (Jun 25)
Embrace nation-building over isolationism. (Nov 2002)

Howard Dean on Free Trade

I support NAFTA & WTO-but they need revision. (Sep 25)
Support NAFTA & WTO with level labor standards. (Sep 25)
Free trade based on labor and environmental standards. (Sep 4)
Trade tariffs to enforce labor & enviro standards. (Mar 26)
WTO should care about human rights. (Feb 26)
Free trade must equal fair trade. (Nov 2002)
Use trade as basis for constructive engagement. (Mar 26)
Use trade to enforce morality on China. (Mar 26)
Develop an open North American energy market. (Jul 2000)
Foster globalization with New England & Eastern Canada. (Aug 2001)
More business cooperation between New England & East Canada. (Jun 1998)

Howard Dean on Government Reform

Reforms must respect state's rights to select electors. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Gun Control

Get guns off the national radar screen: no new federal laws. (Nov 2002)
No more federal gun laws; leave them to states. (Nov 2002)

Howard Dean on Health Care

Build senior Rx program on Vermont program. (Sep 25)
Bush's Rx program is a political trap: looks good, bad plan. (Sep 25)
Wrong to compare any Dem to Gingrich: I support Medicare. (Sep 25)
Join every other industrialized country on health care. (Sep 4)
Bush prescription: take 2 tax cuts and see me in the morning. (May 17)
As doctor, knows health system; and knows how to pass plan. (May 17)
Subsidize health care for small businesses, not corporations. (May 3)
96.4% of Vermonters are covered; deliver that to America. (May 3)
Guarantee health ins. like other industrialized countries. (Nov 2002)
Three-tiered coverage: state, federal, and private. (Nov 2002)
Patient Bill of Rights is hot air: get people insured. (Nov 2002)
Full access first, then tackle reform afterwards. (Nov 2002)
Universal access for all Vermonters; insure the last 6%. (Jan 2001)
Keep “community rating”: insure older people at same rates. (Jan 2001)
No federal pre-emption of employee health plan regulation. (Oct 2001)
Protect state tobacco settlement funds from federal seizure. (Apr 1999)

Howard Dean on Homeland Security

Focus war budget on protecting vital infrastructure. (Jun 17)
Anti-war, but has national security experience as governor. (May 3)

Howard Dean on Immigration

The Americas are more important than War on Terror. (Sep 4)
No automated entry-exit control system; allow free flow. (Jul 2000)
Share costs of legal immigration between states & federal. (Feb 2001)
Federal government should deal with criminal repatriation. (Feb 2001)

Howard Dean on Infrastructure

Invest in rural broadband to replace lost farm jobs. (May 17)
Cooperate with Canada on regional info tech workforce. (Aug 2001)
Level playing field for Main Street vs. Internet sales tax. (Aug 2001)
Create International Northern and Biotechnology Corridor. (Jun 1998)

Howard Dean on Jobs

Trade helps some but has hammered the Midwest. (Sep 25)
Reduce minority unemployment by investing in small business. (Sep 9)
We're exporting jobs if we trade with no labor standards. (Sep 4)
Invest in small businesses & renewable energy. (Sep 4)
Supports living wage via subsidies for kids & housing. (May 17)
Trade should strengthen labor unions in foreign nations. (Mar 27)

Howard Dean on Principles & Values

This campaign is about patriotism-flag belongs to everyone. (Sep 25)
Appeals $76 late fee on property tax; known as a tightwad. (Sep 20)
Favorite song: Wycliff Jean, "J'aspera.". (Sep 9)
Restore US dignity in eyes of people around the world. (Sep 9)
Democrats are as angry at Dems as at GOP. (May 17)
Rule by hope instead of rule by fear. (May 17)
I want to change the Democratic Party, and change America. (May 3)
Give people a reason to vote, & we'll take our country back. (May 3)
Distrusts political extremism & ideologues. (Nov 2002)
Turned to medicine and politics after family tragedy. (Nov 2002)
Let's say what we think and get away from being poll-driven. (Nov 2002)
Religious affiliation: Protestant. (Nov 2000)
Member of Democratic Governors Association. (Aug 2001)
Member of New England Governors Conference. (Aug 2001)
Member, National Governors Association/Economic Development. (Jan 2001)

Howard Dean on Social Security

Considered raising retirement age to 70-now keep it at 67. (Sep 25)
Maintain long-term solvency of Social Security and Medicare. (Aug 2001)

Howard Dean on Tax Reform

Middle class received no benefit from Bush tax cut. (Sep 25)
Tell the truth on taxes: can't afford tax cuts. (Sep 25)
People would rather health care than a tax cut. (Sep 4)
Bush's tax cuts made $10,000 debt for every child. (May 17)
Repeal Bush's tax cuts and invest in social programs. (Nov 2002)
Bush tax cuts were hooey; don't trust GOP with our money. (Nov 2002)
No national sales tax or VAT. (Feb 2000)
Let states independently determine estate taxes. (May 2001)

Howard Dean on War & Peace

Yes on $87B for Iraq-repeal Bush tax cut to pay it. (Sep 25)
If we abandon Iraq, it'll become a terrorist haven. (Sep 9)
Keep relationship with Israel but be a credible negotiator. (Sep 9)
My position on Israel is exactly the same as Bill Clinton's. (Sep 9)
Iraq: Admit we humiliated our allies and get UN help. (Sep 4)
Iraq: Bush lied about al Qaeda, about nukes, and about WMDs. (Sep 4)
Bring US troops home. (Sep 4)
Tear up the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive war. (Jun 17)
Happy that Saddam is gone; keep a strong military; but... (May 3)
Afghanistan requires more than military victory. (Nov 2002)
Deal with terrorism as a joint federal-state responsibility. (Feb 2001)
Include states in anti-terrorism planning. (Sep 2001)

Howard Dean on Welfare & Poverty

Promote the next generation of welfare reform. (Aug 2001)
Maintain federal Social Services Block Grant funding. (Sep 2001)
Maintain flexibility & funding levels for TANF block grants. (Sep 2001)

http://issues2002.org/Howard_Dean.htm

[poskonig]

1. Kerry is more liberal.

However, since Kerry nuances many things to death, the raw facts often get lost.

[WilliamPitt]

2. Bah. Liberals *never* nuance things to death.

Ever.

:)

[SahaleArm]

13. Kerry is a traditional MA liberal.

No way could Dean win on a liberal platform in VT. Taxachusetts is a different story.

[Dr Satan]

3. They are about equal it seems

although Dean isnt as smug.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Yeah, they left that category off

John Kerry on Smug:

"Fuck off."

Howard Dean on Smug:

"Bite me."

They seem about even to me. :)

[blondeatlast]

58. Dean wins by a (brown) nose, IMHO.

[billbuckhead]

10. Dean has been endorsed 8 times by the NRA.

Dean has an "A" rating from the NRA. Kerry is on the NRA enemies list. Big difference there.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. Dean isn't as smug?

Try "aggressively sanctimonious"; he seems to think he invented virtue and would teach the rest of the nominees the concept if they weren't all so corrupt and cowardly. It's like the old ethnic joke: he's balanced; he's got a chip on each shoulder.

On the other hand, he's undeniably got a lot going for him, and he's a great asset to the party. I'm just queasy at all of his invective and spouting off. Take heed, Deanies: I hear this from lots of moderates and lefties. I don't want this guy to leave himself too open or make so many enemies among the center and left.

[KittyWampus]

5. Did You Give Dean's Most Recent Stances On Issues

But not his record or statements made while he was Governor?

Cause there is some discrepency between the two...

Anyhow, knowing what I know.... Kerry is a dyed in the wool Liberal. So I pick him :)

[WilliamPitt]

8. I cut and paste the whole page

So any omissions are theirs.

[AP]

16. Yeah, I have to note, Deans actions/comments as Gov are the key.

And they're missing.

[WilliamPitt]

18. Hook me up, then

Fill out the thread.

[AP]

20. This one sums up a lot for me:

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

[KittyWampus]

28. Dean Worked To Deregulate Electricity

http://together.net/~wudchuck/987_watchman_34.html

[AP]

35. Another link for that:

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

[AP]

31. The '95 Affirmative Action quote should be on this list too.

[KittyWampus]

32. Dean Didn't Do ANY Heavy Lifting For The Civil Unions Bill

And he signed it in the closet. So I give him little credit for being Progressive on this issue.

IIRC, The Supreme Court in Vermont had already decided that gay partners could recieve benefits and they mandated that Legislation be passed to deal with how this would be implemented.

"In December 1999, the Vermont Supreme Court handed down a decision that
mandated that same-sex couples must be offered the same "benefits" and
"protections" that married heterosexual couples now receive. In its ruling, the court
directed the Vermont Legislature to decide whether these benefits will come through
traditional marriage or through a similar arrangement such as a "civil union" bill.

Dean didn't speak out in favor of the bill until around the time the Legislature held a preliminary vote in March and it passed. He signed the bill In April. Before that, he didn't want to talk about the issue.

http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/2000/000426.asp

[dsc]

42. Flat out false

He spoke in favor of the bill on the day of the court decision (source OITM). Both of his opponents in 2000 as well as him said he did get that bill passed. (source debate coverage in Rutland paper). If you don't know that shame on you for not knowing it. If you did and posted what you did anyhow double shame on you.

[SahaleArm]

46. Did he write an amicus brief...

in favor of Civil Unions? If not why?

[KittyWampus]

105. Dean Did Speak Up Eventually- Yes!

He did the right thing.

But I googled before and googled just now and didn't find any speech by Dean regarding Civil Unions from the time the Supreme Court was hearing the related case.

So if you have a link to this ONE speech that shows that Dean came out as a champion of Gay Rights along with its date which indicates it was before the Legislature began considering a bill... I'd love to read it. The only speech I could find was given at the time of the actual passage of the bill and his signing it. And when he signed the bill he had no press around.

From every account I've read, Dean only dealt with the Civil Union Issue because he had to. And he did NOTHING to really shephard the bill along.

Although I would be interested to read the text of the speech he supposedly gave... that would hardly qualify as campainging strenuosly for Gay Rights or Civil Unions. And I am talking about BEFORE the Vermont Supreme Court made it essential that he do so.

By the way, here's another article from Rutland Herald:

"At first, he didn't want to discuss the issue at all. During the period
when the case was before the Supreme Court, he sought to stay
away from an issue he understood could cause political damage
and about which he showed personal unease.

After the Supreme Court decision Dean's unease was evident. He
acknowledged that the issue made him "uncomfortable," and his
language, cautious and clumsy at the same time, reflected the
unease many Vermonters felt in talking about homosexuality and
gay rights.

But once Dean had established the position that the issue was one
of civil rights and that he favored civil unions, the strength of his
convictions grew. One reason was the excesses of the extremist
fringe of civil union opponents."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

106. It's true. Were it not for the CU bill, Dean would be indistinguishable

from Bush.

[AP]

36. Why's Dean so quiet on Haliburton?

Yesterday morning, Tagorda asked some pointed questions about why presidential hopeful Howard Dean had been so relatively quiet, compared to most Democrats, about the Halliburton company's "no-bid contracts and ties to the Bush administration." I thought he was very fair to Dean, even quoting those few times when Dean had mentioned Halliburton critically.

What got the Dean fanatics all riled up, though, was Tagorda's asking aloud as to whether a certain political money donor behind Dean, one Robert Crandall, was the same Robert Crandall of Halliburton. They screamed and yelled that he was practicing "innuendo" (some, noting that there'd been a link from Glenn Reynolds over at Instapundit, called it "Glennuendo").

Asking questions aloud is not "innuendo" per se. It is a time-honored journalistic technique. In fact, it turns out that Dean's backer, according to info that Tagorda has subsequently been able to document precisely because he'd shaken the trees and the fruit thus fell to earth, Halliburton's Robert Crandall is indeed the same Robert Crandall behind Howard Dean.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/

I came accross this while trying to find the Times-Argus story on Deans seed money from energy companies.

[mzmolly]

102. Dean on Halliburton:

http://www.talboito.com/archives/000014.html

"Truly Dean's silence on this issue is deafening. So deafening in fact, that Robert Tagorda can't seem to hear what he has to say."

DEAN KNOCKS BUSH ADMINISTRATION ON HALLIBURTON "This coziness with Halliburton doesn't surprise me a bit," Dean said in Concord, N.H. "It's an emblem of an administration that has sold this country down the river." May 9, 2003

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10151

"This President appears to lack the leadership skills required to do what is necessary to successfully stabilize and reconstruct Iraq before the window of opportunity closes. Instead, President Bush seems content to pursue the current flawed plan, unwilling to do what is necessary to encourage our friends and allies to assist, incapable of taking the steps necessary to expedite the transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqis, and content to direct billions of dollars to special interests like Halliburton. And US troops and taxpayers are suffering as a result."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10187

Today's vote on Senator McCain and Senator Lieberman's global warming pollution bill should be a wakeup call for Congress and the country on the stark choice before us. We can choose the Bush-Cheney approach that rejects the realities of global warming resulting in an energy policy written in secret by special interests like Ken Lay. This energy bill in Congress gives billions of dollars in handouts and preferential treatment to the fossil fuel industry and companies like Halliburton while doing nothing to promote clean, American, renewable energy. Or we can take a different path."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9792

Operation Iraqi Freedom: By the Numbers ... "$20 Million -- Vice President Cheney’s Halliburton early-retirement package."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10195

"Meanwhile, Congress continues to give this President blank checks for his failed security policy. Congress is currently in the process of signing off on an $87 billion check to Halliburton and other corporate contributors to the Bush campaign."

More here...

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/Search?query=halliburton&inc=10&x=27&y=9

[AP]

109. According to the blog, Dean is relatively quiet on Haliburton

Lex-Nex search came up with 1 comment on Haliburton, and his site only had 5 references, which is apparently much less than other candidates.

Dean was an ARDENT supporter of deregulation in VT.

Sorry, but this is one of my litmus tests.

[mzmolly]

111. His site had several references... I only posted 4

Try a google search if you'd like, there were several there.

BTW, The Iraq War is one of my litmus tests, and being there are more then 30,000 dead because of it, I'd say I have trump.

Lastly, I've 'personally' heard Dean speak about Halliburton on several occasions.

By the way, Edwards mentions Halliburton (half as many times as Dean on his website.)

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/home.asp

[AP]

113. Edwards mentions Haliburton every time he gets a chance.

He mentions it at Lessig's Blog today, it's all over his website, it's in several press releases, he said it on NPR last Friday. He constantly mentions it.

Did you read that blog?

Dean was for 87 bil more for Iraq, by the way.

[AP]

114. mazmolly, you need to read this re Dean & Halliburton

http://boomshock.blogspot.com/2003_10_26_boomshock_archive.html#106732899123402477

Good for Dean:

UPDATE II: On his Web site, Dean now has a total of six Halliburton references, of which two are duplicates. The latest is part of a statement on recent Baghdad bombings. He declares that a key tenet of his Iraq reconstruction plan includes "warding reconstruction contracts in a transparent and open process -- not just to Halliburton -- but to the best US or foreign bidder." That he singles out Halliburton and suggests that its contract awards lack transparency and openness seems to me to be rather significant.

However, earlier:

Let me explain why I ask. Like many of you, I have suspicions about the Halliburton-Dick Cheney relationship, the lack of transparency in the Iraq bidding process, and the recent public-relations campaign of corporate officers. I recognize, however, that Republican officials will remain silent on this issue. They should say more, but politically speaking, I can understand -- though not necessarily excuse -- their silence.

Democrats, by contrast, have seemingly given Halliburton the attention that it deserves. Yet, after reading this Associated Press dispatch on president Dave Lesar's internal memo to defend company practices, I wondered what Democratic presidential candidates have said about the issue. I started by researching Howard Dean's public statements, since many consider him the frontrunner and the most outspoken critic of the White House.

I conducted a Nexis search. For the past five years, the words "Howard Dean" and "Halliburton" yielded 38 articles. Only one article, however, proved relevant. On May 8, AP had the following sentences in the eleventh paragraph...

[mzmolly]

122. Uhm, so I provided enough information to 'refute' this trash.

If you'd bother to read what I posted that is.

Again Edwards has 5 refs to Halliburton, Dean has 9. So, the point would be??

[arcos]

126. perhaps because you are misspelling HaLLiburton? n/t

[mzmolly]

128. Hey, I missed that...

Though, I'm not the bestest speler' either. ;)

[AP]

134. Nope. I checked the blog. He spelled it right.

http://boomshock.blogspot.com/2003_10_26_boomshock_archive.html#106732899123402477

[janekat]

9. THAT'S the understatement of the year.

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

6. I didn't have to read your post to know the answer to that one, Will

Kerry is the most liberal of all the candidates running, and that includes the recent pro-choice convert Dennis Kucinich. Kerry is also the one candidate that has done the most harm to his candidacy, simply because more was expected out of him before he took that fateful vote on the Iraq War Resolution.

Had Kerry opposed the Iraq War Resolution as he had opposed the first Gulf War, we would be talking today about the Kerry convention in Boston next year.

[seventhson]

19. Damn, Indiana Green, what a crock.

To say Kerry is the most liberal is going to really damage your credibility.

That is simply absurd.

Besides: Liberalism is the refuge of the comfortable to the detriment of the poor.

[Forkboy]

26. I dont agree with IG that Kerry is the most liberal

I also dont think you have much room to talk on credibility.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Kerry was voting for ENDA and abortion rights

long before Mr. Kucinich saw the error of his ways. Kerry's bad vote on Iraq, and his subsequent support for continuing the occupation of Iraq may well disqualify him from getting our votes in the primary, but do not erase Kerry's legitimate liberal credentials.

[JohnKleeb]

30. Youre right IG

You see I respect and like Kerry. Glad you know this IG, I do too. Kerry has always been solidly pro choice I wish I could say the same about DK, I think I have read that Kerry opposes the death penalty as well. I like Kerry although IWR is a thorn.

[Mairead]

53. I hate to break it to you, IG

but ENDA and Choice are not the sole hallmark of leftist credentials. Perhaps they are of Ochsian love-me-I'm-a-liberalism, but not of any more hi-test grade.

[quaker bill]

47. It's a wash

the choice only depends on your favorite flavor of liberal

[Cocoa]

25. not much doubt the Iraq vote hurts Kerry in the primaries

but I think if he or the others that voted that way get the nomination, it helps against Bush, compared to voting no.

And Kucinich and Sharpton are both more liberal than Kerry.

[Mairead]

52. "Kerry is the most liberal of all the candidates running"

You couldn't possibly support that on any factual level, unless you're using a special definition.

[aldian159]

104. exactly

I work for senator Kerry and that damn yea vote (not condoning it) gives me and my boss fits. Let me say that if Kerry doesn't win, I'll be out in the streets helping the Dem candidate beat Bush. I'm a yellow dog Democrat in that'll I'll vote/help anyone who can beat Bush.

[janekat]

7. Kerry obviously kicks Dean's ass! Love that guy....

but since he cast ONE incorrect vote - all of his accomplishments mean nothing according to many here. Very sad.... They'd rather vote for a "pretend" Progressive Democrat.

[seventhson]

11. You really are Chris Heinz aren't you???

Kerry voted with Bush to send our young people into a suicidal and corporate war in Iraq.

He voted for the Patriot Act which is disembowelling our human rights and eviscerating our Constitution.

He voted for the Homeland Security Act which places all our security in the hands of corporate terrorists.


YOU support the Bonesmen! I will NEVER support ANY of them.


Anyway - Liberalism is the theology of the rich and paternalistic.

Dean is a Progressive which is the philosophy of realists and idealists.

Kerry is for the status quo.

Dean is for CHANGING that status to benefit ALL Americans and all human beings instead of just the wealthy "liberals" and fascists like, respectively, Kerry and the Bonesmen Bush (and Kerry again).

[WilliamPitt]

12. I'm actually Robert Mueller

Wanna play some hockey? I won't check you...much.

[seventhson]

15. I Thought as much!

Funny that Robert Mueller and John Kerry were Hockey teammates at St. Paul's Academy.

The sociopolitical networks of the rich and powerful - Ahh what sweet decadence and decay and death for democracy!!!

[WilliamPitt]

17. You can be on The Team, too

Come on. Be on The Team. Everybody's here. Mmmmm...the Power, seventhson. The Power.

[seventhson]

22. The POWER is NOT in Kerry's status quo.

Besides - I prefer Basketball.

[WilliamPitt]

23. Come on...play hockey with us...

I'll tape your ankles for you.

[seventhson]

33. Why?

I'd rather play full court one on one

[WilliamPitt]

34. Because it's fun

:)

[DrFunkenstein]

38. Wasn't Bobby Mueller In "Hearts And Minds"?

If that's him, he has my eternal respect.

[KittyWampus]

14. Yeah, But BOTH Dean AND Kerry

Would be fun to have a beer with .... and that is the most important thing.

By the way, did you know that Dean's parent's were Maidstoners? heehee

[knaveree]

24. I've had a beer with Kerry

and he is funny. I bet Dean would be fun to have a beer with too... except he doesn't drink. So maybe not.

But still... I'd have a coffee with Dean. And I'll sure as hell work for him and vote for him if he wins the nomination.

But now I'm working for and hoping for Kerry.

Cheers!!! :toast:

[newyawker99]

49. Hi knaveree!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[janekat]

21. How is Dean a Progressive? All the Dean people here say he's NOT now...

You're not all on the same page....

[seventhson]

37. WHO says he's no progressive? Dean is WAY cool with me and...

I am about as progressive as they come from the part of the left I live in.

Dean is the BEST we have to offer as progressives.

And I think it is good we do not walk in the status quo lockstep.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. Progressive Because He Is Cool With You?

Ok.

[WilliamPitt]

44. LOL

Best. Post. Ever.

(well, not quite, but pretty close)

:)

[janekat]

45. A lot of Dean supporters have been saying that...

The only really Progressive issues that I've seen him support is Iraq and gay civil unions. The rest of the issues - he's very conservative in - or at least his record is very conservative. I'm really into the environment and he has a horrible record - that's a big concern of mine. What kinds of issues are important to you?

That comment he made about the Confederate flag I also find distressing. He might not have meant to be racist with it - but I think it's very insenstitive.

Most people who know anything about civil rights know that the Confederate flag is a very volatile issue. It would have been ok if he would have made it clear right then and there that he did NOT support the flying of the flag. Instead it sounded to me as if he was saying that there wasn't really anything wrong with the flag. He insulted a lot of people by basically saying that these racists are "OK" in his book. He would have been much better off not even mentioning it.

[HazMat]

40. I thought he was a centrist ?

:shrug:

Or that time he said he was from the dem wing of the Dem party ?

The sad thing is, America thinks he's a raging anti-war leftist. If he gets the nomination he'll get clobbered and real liberals will take the blame, while the Rockefeller Repubs who nominated him slip into the night.

[Closer]

138. SPOT effing ON Seventhson!!!!!!!

I think even Rivers Pitt knows it was, that's why you got the response you did.


You're a treasure here at DU Seventhson!

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Kerry Is More Liberal, Dean Is More Polarizing

Dean is a centrist that sounds like a liberal, Kerry is a liberal that sounds like a centrist. Which one sounds more appealing to you?

Kerry's environmental record is the best in the field. Dean has never been endorsed by an environmental group and repeatedly gave environmental awards to IBM, one of his state's biggest polluters.

Kerry came out with a gay civil rights bill in the 80s. Dean opposed such a bill at the time and was virtually silent about the civil unions law.

Kerry never accepted a PAC contribution in any of his Senate races. If I'm not mistaken, Dean accepted them in all of them. Kerry wrote the Clean Elections law with Paul Wellstone, and included an important amendment to McCain-Feingold.

Kerry would have impeached Reagan if he wasn't pulled off of the Iran-Contra investigation by worried Democrats (according to the exhaustive Globe profile).

Kerry called for parallel concessions in the Mideast, Dean promised 4x the military aid AND guaranteed loans to Israel on his AIPAC-paid trip to see Sharon.

Shall I keep going?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. Kerry Is Unquestionably More Liberal, Overall

But Dean is more liberal on two issues: the war (slightly), and "insider" status (a bit more than slightly). These two things mean a lot to a sizable minority in the party.

DTH

[DrFunkenstein]

59. What Does "Insider" Have To Do With Being Liberal?

By more liberal on the war, do you mean that Dean is a dove? On second thought, let's not even get into that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

143. I Think It's About Corporate Control and Influence

Don't get me wrong, I don't really buy it entirely. But a current politician is more beholden to corporations and special interests than a former politician.

So by that logic, Dean is less beholden than Kerry.

Of course, by that logic, Clark is also less beholden than Dean.

DTH

[ElsewheresDaughter]

48. KERRY IS!

[CWebster]

50. Pitt's usual

FLAMEBAIT.

[wyldwolf]

54. I know it hurts. The truth, after being mislead, REALLY hurts.

Daily, there are discussions in DU on who is liberal, who is not, who "was a republican up to 25 days ago," etc.

Now we see proof that John Kerry has a better record of standing up for liberal ideals than Howard Dean.

I know it hurts. The truth, after being mislead, REALLY hurts.

But it isn't flamebait. In fact, there really doesn't seem to be any room for argument. Kerry is obviously more liberal. And that does matter to many here.

[CWebster]

56. Ha - don't think the comparison here is with Clark

but with Kerry---who has charged Dean of every extreme--- from too liberal\ to too conservative.


http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/28/Columns/Attacks_on_Dean_may_l.shtml

The argument never was about Kerry's liberalism( unless it is viewed as a liability and then he has to bolster his macho image), the issue is he isn't fit to lead. He has no charisma, no broad-based appeal, no common touch and he is a political coward when it comes time to stand and fight.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

60. Then why is it

that so many of the more progressive establishment types flock to Dean instead of Kerry - from Jesse Jackson, Jr to congressman Jim McDermott, while Kerry gets the spook types?

How come true progressives like Chomsky suggest Kucinich hasn't much chance and Studs Terkel concurs and adds "Dean will do".

[wyldwolf]

62. Well, based on the record so accurately put before us in Will Pitt's post

I can only assume Studs Terkel has been mislead into believing Dean is more progressive than he is.

The voting records and quotes from Dean and Kerry on the issues do not lie.

And, by the way, PROVE your "Kerry get spook types" charge.

[CWebster]

65. Yes I am sure that Studs Terkel has been misled

but you are not.

Lol!

[wyldwolf]

72. Well, the quotes and voting history are matters of public record...

..so if Studs Terkel thinks Howard Dean is more liberal than John Kerry, he is VERY mislead. As are you. LOL!

So show me where Dean is more liberal than Kerry.

I won't bother to wait for the answer because you'll never give it.

[mzmolly]

112. Uhm. Dean has no 'voting record'...

:eyes:

[SahaleArm]

119. Sure he does.

He was the Governor of Vermont, correct?

[mzmolly]

123. Correct, and Governors don't vote on issues.

:eyes:

[SahaleArm]

131. What does a governor vote on then?

On Edit: How do you explain civil unions:)?

[wyldwolf]

61. ha! I didn't say the comparison was with Clark...

Why are you trying to divert to Clark?

[CWebster]

63. Give me a break,

"...Republican until 25 days ago....

it's your only issue.

[wyldwolf]

68. Why should I give you a break?

In the daily discussions over who is really "liberal" and a "true democrat," Deanies always play the Clark republican card. My reference was call an "example."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=example

But in the face of overwhelming evidence about how liberal Dean ISN'T, you freak out.

And please. You have NO idea the issues I champion. In fact, and proudly, my views are more in line with John Kerry's than Dean's. Aren't yours?

[DrFunkenstein]

71. But Not Uncharacteristic Of Dean's Ethics

It's not fair that all the candidates pick on Dean, after he has been so civil to them the whole time.

[CWebster]

75. laughable, Funkenstein

Dean takes it from all quarters. No one focuses on Kerry because he isn't a threat. He has to drag others down to get a foothold because he can't do it on the merits of his arguments.

Face it Funkenstein, outside of his financially priviliged establishment milieu, Kerry does not connect.

[wyldwolf]

79. You also avoided my question...

In fact, and proudly, my views are more in line with John Kerry's than Dean's. Aren't yours?

???

[CWebster]

83. No

Kerry is DLC. Dean rejected it.
Kerry poses as a hawk on Israel and condemns Dean for offering an "even-handed" alternative.
Kerry's ridiculous claim that should we demand decent working conditions ("American standards" for our slave workforce overseas it would destroy the US economy. Well, looks like our jobs aren't being saved, Senator Kerry)
Kerry searches for political advantages and charts his course by the political winds. That and I can't stand to look at him and his macho bragging about Viet Nam when he attacked candidates in past elections for pulling the service card.

[wyldwolf]

87. OK, so here are your positions...

Abortion is none of the government's business
Partial birth abortion is only ok to protect the mother
Guns are none of the government's business
Believes affirmative action should be based on class - not race
More federal funding for all aspects of Drug War.
support NAFTA (DLC baby!)

...among others.

But at least now I see where your opinions are.

[wyldwolf]

95. still no answer... thought so!

[DrFunkenstein]

90. What Part Of Kerry's DLC Membership Do You Disapprove Of?

The part where he has never accepted a PAC contribution or the part where he is more liberal than Dean (not to mention most of Congress)?

Kerry doesn't pose as a hawk on Israel - he called Dean out for some statements obviously not thought out. In fact, Dean is posing (very poorly) as a dove on Israel. I'm not sure how it is "evenhanded" to give Israel 4x the military aid while demanding that any Palestinian State be demilitarized.

Dean backed down (rightfully) on "American" standards - because it was dumb and not thought out.

As far as "advantages," how about Dean saying we can't afford to be misled after he went on freakin' MTP less than a month earler saying the same thing?

And I can't stand Dean's macho bragging about balancing the budget for a state with 608,827 people (in 2000). 608,827 people! NYC alone is 7,322,564 people. The capital of Vermont - 8,247 people. I've got that many people living in my apartment building!

[DrFunkenstein]

84. Still On The "Elitist" Talking Point?

The merits of his arguments? I don't call those soundbites at the debates "arguments." I believe the invitation to a one on one still stands.

Outside of the "fairness" - we all know how fair Dean is to the other candidates - do you really believe that in a million years Dean could beat Kerry in a debate?

[CWebster]

89. One would have to start with the premise

that anyone could even tolerate listening to Kerry impressing himself with the sound of his own voice.

[DrFunkenstein]

91. How Does It Make You Feel When You Hear Him?

Are you not impressed?

[HFishbine]

66. That's funny

The first refeference to anything Clark in this thread was made by you and then you chastise people for responding (although you still haven't quite mastered how to do it without getting your posts deleted).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=637736

[wyldwolf]

70. What's even funnier is how examples are lost on people...

In the daily discussions over who is really "liberal" and a "true democrat," Deanies always play the Clark republican card. My reference was call an "example."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=example

But in the face of overwhelming evidence about how liberal Dean ISN'T, you freak out. In fact, and proudly, my views are more in line with John Kerry's than Dean's. Aren't yours?

[HFishbine]

76. I freaked out?

Did I freak out? Where did I freak out!?! I'm asking you a question! WHERE DID I FREAK OUT! I DID NOT FREAK OUT!!! WHEN I *@&$()@&ing FREAK OUT, YOU'LL KNOW IT!!!

Ahhh, that's better.

[wyldwolf]

77. You also avoided the most relevant question of this thread...

In fact, and proudly, my views are more in line with John Kerry's than Dean's. Aren't yours?

????

[HFishbine]

80. My, My, My

We certainly are demanding, aren't we?

I'll tell you what, I'll answer your questions after you answer mine. Weren't you in fact, the first to bring a Clark reference to this thread? What post supports your contention that I "freaked out?"

[wyldwolf]

82. You're not paying attention... and you're still avoiding the question..

..since I've already said I used the Deanie charge of Clark being a republican as an example of the "most liberal" or "most democrat" discourse spread here by Deanies, you question has already been answered.

But now everyone can see that you don't want to answer the question.

I'll ask again: In fact, and proudly, my views are more in line with John Kerry's than Dean's. Aren't yours?

Eagerly awaiting your spin... or silence.

[wyldwolf]

96. still no answer... thought so!

[DrFunkenstein]

67. Kerry Charged Dean With Being A Polarizer

As for being fit to lead, considering the number of recent gaffes by Dean, that's not a subject I'd bring up too quickly. As for charisma, you haven't been watching Road To The White House. As for political cowardice, we're still waiting for Dean to accept a one-on-one debate. Oh, that's right - it wouldn't be fair to the other Bush-lite cockroaches. That's why he ducked for cover. Considering his debate performances, I'm not surprised.

:hi:

[CWebster]

73. They are gaffes

only because the likes of Kerry strove to portray them as such.

Kerry has the audacity to propose a 1 on 1 is typical of his typical elitism to disregard the other candidates. Kerry with his typically wooden, endless pontificating and snide jabs -speak to his inability to rally any grassroots support.

[wyldwolf]

74. The likes of Kerry... bwahahahahahaha

Despite Kerry's lack of grassroots support, he is still more of a champion of liberal ideals than Dean ever was.

[DrFunkenstein]

81. But Didn't You Just Say

"The venom isn't directed at Bush, it is directed at each other and it is mean-spirited, deceptive and destructive to the cause of the Party, based on petty jealousies and ego gratification.

This is the ONLY way Bush will win - in a united Republican effort to portray the Democratic contenders as immature and juvenile who are incapable of rising above the leval of petty bickering. The Republicans sit back with a smug smile, hands folded across their bloated bellies and let the Democrats do all their dirty work."

But now you are saying:

"Kerry has the audacity to propose a 1 on 1 is typical of his typical elitism to disregard the other candidates. Kerry with his typically wooden, endless pontificating and snide jabs -speak to his inability to rally any grassroots support."

Typical.

PS - All of the candidates condemned Dean. You're just fixated.

Kerry, Kerry, Kerry, Kerry, Kerry

[CWebster]

88. Yup

Legitimate criticism, like the blank check for Bush - not this deliberate sabotage built on lies and twisted acts of desperation. Like the little lying smear the Kerry campaign threw in on the last debate.

Typical Kerry.

And this is the ONLY way he can get any attention and keep any focus---by forcing others to address him to counter his attacks. Negative attention strategy. Does he think we do not see? Probably so, he dismissed us when his vote went for Bush too.



But isn't that Kerry's lame attempt to make it Kerry Kerry Kerry?

[DrFunkenstein]

93. This Is Legitimate Criticism?

""Kerry has the audacity to propose a 1 on 1 is typical of his typical elitism to disregard the other candidates. Kerry with his typically wooden, endless pontificating and snide jabs -speak to his inability to rally any grassroots support."

PS - I went to New Hampshire with a bus full of Kerry grassroots volunteers from NYC. Apparently, he has rallied a teency weency bit at least.

[aldian159]

107. its gonna be bloody

If kerry wins the nomination in spite of voting yea, that very vote helps us in the general election. If Dean wins because of voting no (and others) he's gonna get beat down McGovern stlye. Still, I'll help either one.

Election 2004 will be the bloodiest election in the past or the next 20 years. Its gonna be fun...hopefully.

[seventhson]

98. Yeah - the new tag team of Funkenstein and Pitt is atrocious

these are vanity posts in many ways.

The problem is that this is all spin for Kerry's campaign.

Funk, BLM and Pitt are all on the Kerry bandwagon along with their acolytes.

So a thread like this is really just fluff and flame.

As Kerry's campaign goes down in flames these guys act like the pilot George HW Bush. They will send the plane crashing down taking the crew (Dean, Edwards, et al) with it.

The reason I have long believed Kerry is a BFEE operative (since I discovered his skull and bones roots) is because of these intentional assaults on folks like Dean who really are NOT sold out to the DLC/PNAC crowd like Kerry is.

Kerry is the DLC. He IS PNAC (that is why he voted for the war and why his top foreign policy advisor is a PNAC signatory).

Dean is NOT despite the lies to the contrary.


Kerry is WAY closer to Bush. If Kerry were anywhere NEAR being a liberal he would have opposed the Iraq war, the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act. The confederate flag issue is a flimsy red herring when you look at the misery Kerry has caused by his reactionary right wing votes supporting Bush's fascism lock stock and two smoking barrells.

[paulk]

100. Kerry's votes are a matter of public record

How can you deny his (overall) liberal voting record?

Kerry is closer to Bush? Are you at all concerned with your personal crediblity here? That's an absurd thing to say.

[DrFunkenstein]

108. Ground Control To Major Tom

Do you ever wake up in the morning and say "Holy crap, I'm nuts!"?

Next you're gonna be telling us that Kerry is part of SNL.

[SahaleArm]

120. LOL.

:) *nm*

[WilliamPitt]

121. Yep. Facts are flamebait

to people like you.

:eyes:

[Mairead]

51. It's not even a contest! Looking at the record, Kerry is well in front.

It's only his recent turn toward the Dark Side that sucks like a Vax.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. DSB's Imprecise Ideological Ratings Of The Democratic Candidates

From most left to most right....


1) Kucinich

2) Sharpton

3) Moseley Braun

4) Kerry

5) Gephardt

6a) Dean

6b) Clark

7) Edwards

8) Lieberman

Before you reply, there is alot more difference between the top three and the other six than there is between candidates four through eight.... Even Lieberman despite his shrill rhetoric still takes many reliably center left positions...

[blm]

69. I would put Edwards and Clark to Dean's left.

Hasn't anyone else noticed that Clark is aligning himself more with Kerry's policies?

Dean is more conservative than Lieberman on some issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. Possibly.....

Howard Dean reminds me of the late Paul Tsongas with more passion and a popular anti-war position....

He is quite the fiscal conservative....

[blm]

86. And Dean's core principles on deregulation are more Libertarian

and GOP like than almost the entire Democratic party.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Yes- On Those issues he is 180% different from , say, Geppy

but these candidates are constantly changing their position so it's hard to know what's going on...

I don't know where they stand on trade....

[AP]

137. Which candidateS are changing their opinions?

?

[AP]

136. Dean is to the right of Lieberman on race and taxes.

Which happen to be Lieb's two best issues, but, nonetheless, it's worth noting.

[blondeatlast]

64. It's all about perception, and in that case, Kerry wins by

a landslide.

Dean gets my support if, and only if, he wins the nomination; in which case I'll volunteer, donate, talk him up, etc.

His record as governor is all I need to see--I'm a Liberal with a capital LIBERAL; Dean ain't.

[bleedingheart]

85. I will vote for whoever wins the party nomination!

I want all the candidate bashing to stop so we can focus on bashing Bush and structuring a message of HOPE for all Americans!

[DrFunkenstein]

92. Let Them Bash Kerry For Being A Liberal

Who Is John Kerry?

107th Congress, 2001 Senate Votes

Against The Bush Tax Cut: Kerry voted against a $1.35 trillion tax cut package to reduce income-tax rates, alleviate the "marriage penalty" and gradually repeal the estate tax.

For Reducing Size Of The Tax Cut: Kerry voted to reduce Bush's proposed tax cut ceiling by $448 billion over 10 years.

Against Ashcroft Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming John Ashcroft to be Attorney General.

106th Congress, 1999-2000 Senate Votes

Against Genetic Privacy: Kerry voted against approving a GOP plan to restrict use of genetic information by health insurers.

For Expanding Hate Crime Protections: Kerry voted to include gender, sexual orientation and disability in federal hate crime protections.

Against Reducing Taxes: Kerry voted against reducing federal taxes by $792 billion over 10 years.

105th Congress, 1997-98 Senate Votes

Against Banning Partial-Birth Abortion: Kerry voted against a ban on "partial-birth" abortions.

Against Banning Cloning: Kerry voted against allowing vote to ban human cloning.

Against Educational Savings Accounts: Kerry voted against allowing a vote to create educational savings accounts.

Against Fiscally Responsible Budget: Kerry voted against approving a GOP budget to cut spending and taxes.

Against Balanced-Budget Amendment: Kerry voted against approving a balanced-budget constitutional amendment.

104th Congress, 1995-96 Senate Votes

Against Balancing The Budget: Kerry voted against a bipartisan plan to balance the budget in seven years.

Against Tort Reform: Kerry voted against allowing a vote to approve a cap on punitive damages in product liability cases.

103rd Congress, 1993-94 Senate Votes

Against Spending Reductions: Kerry voted to kill an amendment to reduce budget spending by $94 billion.
For The Largest Tax Increase In American History: Kerry voted to pass Clinton's budget that raised taxes and cut spending.

102nd Congress, 1991-92 Senate Votes

Against Stopping Missile Defense Spending Cuts: Kerry voted against a motion to kill an amendment that proposed deeper cuts in SDI spending.

Against School Choice: Kerry voted against approving a school-choice pilot program.

Against Thomas Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.

For Defense Spending Reductions: Kerry voted to transfer $3.1 billion to domestic programs from Defense department accounts.

101st Congress, 1989-90 Senate Votes

Against Flag Burning Amendment: Kerry voted against a constitutional amendment on flag desecration.

Against Parental Notification For Minors' Abortions: Kerry voted to kill an amendment requiring parental notice for minors' abortions.

Against Considering A Capitol Gains Tax Cut: Kerry voted against allowing a vote on a capital gains tax cut.

100th Congress, 1987-88 Senate Votes

Against Death Penalty For Drug-Related Murders: Kerry voted against approving the death penalty for drug-related murders.

Against Bork Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Supreme Court Nominee Judge Robert H. Bork.

99th Congress, 1985-86 Senate Votes

Against Rehnquist Nomination: Kerry voted against the confirmation of William Rehnquist to become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

KERRY'S INTEREST GROUP RATINGS

<>

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research012303-2.htm

[NewYorkerfromMass]

97. Kerry by a mile

and to even remotely compare Dean to him is insulting to Kerry.
Dean is an opportunist.

[seventhson]

99. KERRY's VOTES prove he is a right wing fascist supporter

IRAQ WAR --- YES!!!!

PATRIOT ACT (Suspension of the Consitution)- YESSSS!!!!


Homeland Security ---- Ohhhh YESSSSSSS!!!!!!


That's Kerry for you.

He says he loves us while he is screwing us but we are really getting raped.

SKULL is a criminal enterprise.

[aldian159]

110. patriot act passed 98-1 with one abstainment

Everyone not named feingold voted yea. I don't know who voted no, but it was one of the following: Kennedy, Boxer, Durbin, Feinstein, Edwards, Graham...

Just to clarify

[seventhson]

115. I wish Feingold were running. I prefer him to all the candidates

on most issues

[spindoctor]

116. The only presidential candidate to vote against the Patriot Act...

...is Dennis Kucinich.

Just had to get that in :)

[JohnKleeb]

117. but hes unelectable

;) So lets ignore him NOT
;)

[CMT]

101. overall I would say Kerry is more liberal

but on three crucial elements I agree more with Dean with regards to the Bush agenda.

The Iraqi War Resolution: Kerry voted YES while Dean opposed.

Dismantle the entire Bush Tax Cut: Kerry opposes this, Dean supports doing this.

Understanding that "Children Come First" is a fraud and campaigning against it.

[mzmolly]

103. Hate to rain on any parades, but Dean as a Governor didn't have an

opportunity to 'vote' on the issues as Kerry did.

Were Dean a member of the Senate at the same time as Kerry, one would find that Dean and Kerry are very close on the issues.

[blm]

130. No. Dean is to Kerry's right on many issues. Dean's core is Libertarian.

He told the CATO Institute they would love him for his belief in deregulation.

Geez, how many of you believed Dean's dog and pony show populism? You do know it's only 10 months old, don't you?

[AP]

135. A few months ago this was a DU litmus test issue. What replaced it?

Simply hating Bush vocally and frequently?

I really don't get why people are so willing to set aside core Democratic principles for this guy.

I know there are lots of Libertarians on the internet. Is this the internet Libertarian coup of the Democratic party?

Man, I hope it doesn't work.

[blm]

140. i think you're right. Run a Libertarian dressed in populist's clothing.

Sheesh. What fools.

[blondeatlast]

144. I'm not buying it now and I'll only buy it if he's the nominee

(Please, God, no . . .)

[0007]

118. It all depends -

I'd call it a dead heat. A Mexican stand off.

'Tis an illusion if ya sez Kerry - six two and even

[mitchum]

124. kick for the truth

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

125. John Forbes Kerry on NAFTA/GATT: Yes

too bad, so sad

[WilliamPitt]

127. Howard Dean on NAFTA and WTO: Yes

:)

[mzmolly]

129. Bill Clinton on NAFTA and WTO: Yes

:)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

132. Kerry could have been the new FDR

But when the chips were down, Kerry chose his own class.

[DrFunkenstein]

133. The Kerry Amendment To NAFTA

(Nader-founded) Public Citizen:

"The amendment was a modest reform that guaranteed much-needed changes in the NAFTA Chapter 11 investment model in future trade agreements.

Under the model, foreign investors may file a claim in secret NAFTA tribunals to seek compensation when government public interest regulations in any way diminish the value of their investment.

In doing so, the amendment would have instructed U.S. trade negotiators to ensure that future investor provisions do not grant foreign investors rights beyond what the U.S. Constitution provides."

http://action.citizen.org/pc/issues/votes/?votenum=121&chamber=S&congress=1072

The Kerry Amendment to the Baucus-Grassley fast-track trade bill would have limited expansion of NAFTA-style corporate lawsuits to more countries.

Under NAFTA, foreign corporations gained broad powers to sue US taxpayers for financial damages if our environmental, health, or land protection laws interfere with their businesses.

The Kerry Amendment would have ensured that foreign investors have no greater rights than US citizens under the US Constitution.

http://www.sierraclub.org/votewatch/2002/kerry.asp

WASHINGTON - May 21 - Friends of the Earth expressed disappointment in the loss of an amendment to trade legislation that would have protected environmental standards from foreign investor lawsuits. The amendment, offered by Sen. John Kerry, sought to address concerns with investment rules like NAFTA's Chapter 11 that allow foreign corporations to bring suits against environmental laws and regulations.

"By voting against the Kerry amendment, the Senate has paved the way for more backdoor corporate assaults on laws that protect our air, water and land," said David Waskow, Friends of the Earth's trade policy coordinator. "The Senate should be protecting the health and safety of Americans, not watching the backs of wealthy polluters who make big campaign contributions."

http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0521-13.htm

"The current Fast Track bill is an environmental nightmare," said Carroll Muffett, director of international programs for Defenders of Wildlife. "The Kerry Amendment would have fixed one of the biggest problems with it. Without Kerry, Fast Track is just a license for unchecked environmental destruction."

http://www.charitywire.com/charity51/03074.html

Unlike the amendment sponsored by Sen. John Kerry, the Baucus-Grassley Amendment does not set the U.S. Constitution as the benchmark for the scope of property rights available to foreign investors in the United States.

The Kerry Amendment would repair the investment model of NAFTA. Under the Kerry Amendment, a foreign investor would be required to demonstrate that the policy in question was enacted primarily with discriminatory intent against foreign investors or investments.

The Kerry Amendment is based on U.S. Supreme Court rulings on expropriation in that it would guarantee that future trade agreements improve upon the NAFTA model and restrict such investment protection actions to only those cases where government action causes a physical invasion of property or the denial of all economic or productive use of that property.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0515-04.htm

Dear (Decision Maker),

I am writing to ask you to support the Kerry Amendment to FAST TRACK. The Baucus-Grassley Trade Bill is not good enough. I would appreciate your support for this amendment. Specifically, the amendment will:

1. Ensure that foreign investors don't get greater rights than US citizens or investors. We need to make sure that the US Constitution is the benchmark for investor treatment.

2. Clarify the definition of expropriation in future trade deals to conform with the US Constitution and recent US Supreme Court rulings.

3. Protect US laws on public health, safety and the environment from attack by investor-state lawsuits.

4. Ensures that minimum treatment under international law is defined in a way that follows the US Constitution. We don't want to follow that of some other country.

5. Require diplomatic check. Before a corporation could go into one of the secret trade tribunals to sue for taxpayer compensation (avoiding the domestic court system), they should have to check in with their own government.

This amendment will be voted upon soon. I urge you to vote for it and keep the problems that are already happening with NAFTA Chapter 11 from happening under future trade agreements.

Sincerely,
Your Name
Your Address

http://www.unionvoice.org/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=2005

<>

[David Zephyr]

139. Actually, Neither Are Truly "Liberal", William.

I supposed compared to Bush and Ashcroft they might be, but compared to the positions of other Democrats (not socialists, mind you) such as Dennis Kucinich, they are not.

Still, getting out my microscope to measure the difference between the two candidates you have chosen, I say the following:

Separating out the issue of Kerry's support for Bush's war, I'd have to say that Dean and Kerry are probably about equal on the moderately progressive scale.

Kucinich's stands on Iraq, his stand on universal healthcare, his stand on taxation and on international "trade" are truly progressive politically.

[DrFunkenstein]

142. More Liberal Than 87% Of The Senate

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2002, Senator Kerry voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 87 percent of the Senators.

-----

On Crossfire, Ralph Nader (on my sh*t list, but definitely liberal) suggested Kerry as his #2 choice behind Kucinich.

Kerry's all over campaign finance reform (Kerry-Wellstone), fuel efficiency, corporate crime and corporate welfare, environmental racism, all kinds of progressive issues that many liberals won't even touch. In all 4 of his Senate races, he never accepted a penny of PAC or "soft money" contributions. That doesn't impress you at all?

[MuseRider]

141. Thanks, Will.

This is helpful. Although I still continue to support Kucinich I have really begun to warm up to Kerry.

[mdmc]

145. Kerry is the liberal

Dean opposed the war.
I would never have supported Dean if Kerry had stood up against preemption.

[JNelson6563]

146. Where was the strong defender of liberal values

last fall? Where has been the strong resistance to the fascist bastards who have over-run every facet of our government? Where were the impassioned speeches on the Senate floor that had eveyone talking and cheering such bravery and statesmanship?

Never mind the last 20, 30 or even one hundred years. I want to talk about the last nearly 3 years. Standing safely under the shade tree of the fascist regime propped up by the fascist friendly corporate media in a time where this country needed bravery, principle and honesty tells me all I need to know.

Sorry but my anger and bitter disappointment in our Democratic represetantion tucking tail and running when it really mattered apparently runs deep enough that pointing to many a good deed from a seemingly long ago bygone era just doesn't do it for me.

It's a crying-ass-shame that the strongest voice for the real people in this nation came from a nearly ancient soul (Byrd) with a barely audible chorus of support from his "collegues". Damn shameful. If any one of these Senatorial candidates for Prez. had put in half the showing Byrd did I'd follow 'em to the end. But it didn't work out that way--as most here know/are willing to admit.

Julie

[DrFunkenstein]

147. Gep Wanted It Off The Table, Kerry Voted From Conviction

Although clearly his almost 50 minute speech was a sign of someone deeply troubled by his vote. But Kerry was not one of the people "running for cover." Neither yes or no represented what he felt, but he voted for what he felt was the most responsible of the two sh*tty choices.

Here's Kerry's long history of calling for disarmament - or rather enforcement of the peace treaty Saddam himself had signed for unfettered inspections:

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061903.htm

Kerry was very strongly for Biden-Lugar:

"Before Mr. Gephardt decided to cave in on the war resolution, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, had hoped to make the Biden-Lugar resolution the basis of a vote in the Senate. That now appears unlikely. Mr. Biden said Wednesday that he was a realist and knew that the new compromise, ballyhooed Wednesday afternoon in the White House Rose Garden, pretty much meant the end of his approach."

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1003-01.htm

"Like Kerry, Gephardt opposed the 1991 resolution authorizing military action to drive Hussein's forces from Kuwait -- a position the Missourian now says he regrets. But he has been much more resolute in support of the White House this time than has Kerry.

When a questioner said Kerry implied that Gephardt had compromised too easily with the White House, Gephardt replied that the president had made it clear he would not accept a "two-step" process that required him to come back to Congress for authorization of force."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0221-03.htm

I respect that people disagree with Kerry's vote - I do, as a matter of fact - but I sincerely hope that doesn't blind them to a really decent man. I honestly believe that Kerry was trying to do the right thing. If I didn't, there's no way I could support him.