Starting to feel disillusioned and despressed with politics.

[Liberal Veteran]

It seems like there is never any light at the end of the tunnels anymore and even many of our own politicians are turning on us.

Between DINOs like Joe Lieberman running his campaign on "Vote for me because I am a lot like Bush, but not Bush.", decent people like Graham dropping out of public service, and traitors like Zell Miller undermining our party publically while other democrats have been displaying the same amount of spine I would expect in a jellyfish, blackbox voting, 24/7 AM hate radio that has become nothing more than campaign commercials and neocon proselytizing, I am finding it harder and harder to keep the faith.

In my heart, I know that the neoconservatives are the antithesis of everything I believe in and I cannot give up, but every day it just seems like there is more and more bad news for getting our country back on the right track.

I begin to understand the fate of Sisyphus, who was doomed to roll a boulder up a mountain until he almost reached the summit and just when victory was within his grasp and his struggles over, the boulder would roll down the hill and he would begin his long struggle once more.

What do we have to do get things back the way the should be?

[theivoryqueen]

1. Just starting?

Who was it that said "Politics will break your heart"? I am soo cheating - I saw that in a movie. But it's true. Even so, it's important to remain interested and active. It does mean something. It signifies that you consider that you count.

As for the solution: that everyone starts to realize they count and fully commits to ending voter apathy, political apathy and does whatever necessary to get their voices heard, even if it means calling our state and federal congresspeople at home in the middle of the night and waking them up.

[Brucey]

2. I'm with you. We're not only pushing the rock,

we're waiting for Godot. My long term plan is to tough it out for a while, and eventually look into moving to another country. I'm thinking about Canada or Denmark right now.

[Pillowbiter]

24. Do you think Canada will save you?

If we don't stop this merde right here right now in this country, no matter what country you go to, you will not be safe. If we give up hope on this country, we may as well give up hope on the world.

PB

[zonmoy]

40. hopeless

"If we give up hope on this country, we may as well give up hope on the world."
Perhaps we should just cheer on the next planetkiller meteor that comes to destroy life on earth.

[Butterflies]

3. Same here

but I'm still able to get my hopes up at times. If we lose next November, then it'll really be time to get depressed IMO. Today I saw a "Bush/Cheney 2004" bumpersticker on a car for the first time, and it surprised me (though I guess it shouldn't have - I live in Virginia.) I just can't believe that anyone with half a brain would think that Bush/Cheney is a good idea anymore.

[grok]

4. NO excuses!

Listen, You HAVE to be the loyal opposition!!! Even if you lose. You cannot give ANY quarter. You have to fight for what you believe. You have to give your opposition pause and at least listen. The moment your opposition thinks your side is toast, it will do WHATEVER IT WANTS. You are a moderating influence and are at the very least a reminder to the other side that many Americans do not think like they do. It is your American duty. accept it.

If y'all give up, this republic becomes a one-party state. You ready for that? Suck it up and fight! You can always get up off the ground and fight again.

grok

[zonmoy]

41. what makes you think

that this isnt simply a one party state only with one fake head.

[LibertyorDeath]

44. Bingo someone give this person a cigar

[Kanary]

5. I'm afraid

that until the majority of the middle class has that boulder smash over them, probably numerous times, they are not going to "get it", and it will all keep repeating itself ad nauseum.

You see, I had hope during the rebellion of the 60's and early 70's that we *were* getting our country on the "right track".... I was optomistic that there were leaders who had the combination of knowledge and compassion, and people in the "followship" (heh.. I just made up a word..) who could actually listen.... people had hearts, afterall.

Several assassinations later, good people leaving office in exhaustion and despair, more defeats than victories, and fewer and fewer people I can even talk with... I don't think, in all honesty, that most people in this country are at all interested in what is actually happening. And that is what it comes down to. Until/unless the population *wants* something different for this country, it is an uphill battle. That doesn't mean that we get to give up. It means that we have to give each other a *LOT* of support, and care for each other, so that we can continue pushing that damned boulder. This constant bashing of each other is weakening the very people who are the only ones to keep pushing that damned boulder.

But, I'm afraid that isn't something that we "get", either.

UHOH... here comes that boulder again.....

Kanary

[tom_paine]

8. I'm afarid I agree with you Kanary

But that doesn't mean I'm giving up!

[jiacinto]

6. Lieberman is not a DINO first of all

The facts don't agree with that argument. Just becasue he isn't Barbara Lee or Maxine Waters doesn't make him a DINO. I am not voting for him but he is not as bad as his detractors at DU make him out to be.

[RetroLounge]

9. There you go again

always defending the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party.

[jiacinto]

16. I am voting for Dean

But Lieberman has been unfairly maligned on this board for years. And it is clear that a lot of it has reason to do with issues other than his poltiical positions.

[Liberal Veteran]

I'm sorry but I will never forgive Lieberman for his multiple betrayals...

...On this ill-advised war that resulted in the deaths of thousand of Iraqis, almost 400 American families that will be mourning this Christmas because of the deaths in Iraq, his betrayal of Gore in Election 2000, his support of the partisan attacks against Bill Clinton, and his hawkish PNAC foreign policy, I have nothing but contempt for Joseph Lieberman and would consider leaving the party if got the nod, which he won't thankfully.

[jiacinto]

17. I am not voting for him

But comparisons to Zell Miller don't hold up. Do you feel the same way about Gephardt, Kerry, and Edwards?

[tom_paine]

7. Don't give up! NEVER GIVE UP!

I know it is tough, but think fo George Washington in 1780. He was despondent and certain of defeat.

In just a little more than a year, he'd won.

And he was as outmanned and outgunned as we Free Americans are now by the Busheviks.

Don't give up! NEVER GIVE UP!

[wryter2000]

15. How I wish some of those guys could speak from the grave

Imagine what Washington, Jefferson, Madison et al. would have to say about what's going on in this country.

What we have here is a failure to educate, I'm afraid. People in this country don't understand what our government's supposed to be about. Years of underfunding schools have caused the problem, imho, and no number of great people who sacrifice almost everything to be teachers can change that fact.

[theivoryqueen]

20. totally agree

People do not know this country's history and have no grasp of thesignificance of many events. There is no "context" for them to refer to - and so they seem to simply accept what they are fed.

[xJlM]

10. Do you mean, "The way it used to be"?

That will never happen. We can have it a lot better than that, though. That's what I'm hoping for. Some seem to disagree with me, and think that we can tweak what we have and get something worth having. I say it's time to get rid of the policies which hurt the American people, as well as those which exploit people the world over (pre-emptive war, NAFTA, the doctrine of remaining in a nation we attacked under false pretenses and causing more death and destruction there).

[HootieMcBoob]

11. I know how you feel

Almost weekly my person and I toy with the idea of moving to another country because more and more we feel that this one doesn't seem to share our values. I think I'm probably a lot like you too. I served in the Army reserves, I'm a member of the freaking American Legion for crying out loud :) I was a boy scout, when I was a kid and had a flag flying outside of the house that I would raise in the morning and lower at night...I bought into the whole thing about our values and diversity and differences and so forth and how that made us the greatest country on earth, but that's all changed now and I feel like I've been screwed.

But, there are some optimistic things too. The neo-cons started a long time ago with the think tanks and working the media and we're just getting started in this area. There's the Center for American Progress, which is a new progressive think tank sort of in the mold of the Heritage Institute, there's George Soro's group which is putting lots of money into getting Bush out of office. There's Anshell Media the Liberal radio network that should start broadcasting early next year and Al Gore's progressive news station for young folks who don't want their news dumbed down, which is also scheduled to start broadcasting early next year. There's also the internet with groups like DU and moveon.org etc.

There are some positive things that right now seem to be mostly under the radar but I feel your pain :) Some days I feel like Sisyphus too.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

19. Uh

Employment is up, taxes are down, economy is robust....if that is not the, "right track" in your mind, then you are more than welcome to move.

What country you talking about? France?

[theivoryqueen]

21. I'm glad someone else noticed this post.

[Liberal Veteran]

26. I noticed it.

Someone obviously took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

29. Oh, for sure

Mission Accomplished, huh?

[Liberal Veteran]

30. Which candidate will you be supporting, friend, in 2004?

Just wondering.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. I have your number friend.....Here's some economic news for you.

It's all about money for your kind. Meanwhile more of our country is living in poverty, more people don't have access to basic health care. We are hated and despised in the world as a country. We have mortgaged our children's future to line the pockets of Halliburton. I am unemployed and employment has been stagnant for almost 3 years now. Our people are dying overseas in a war based on a pack of lies. Our constitution is being undermined by legislation purported to protect us and every day this country seems like it is being run by fundamentalists . Civil discourse has degenerated into a mockery of debate.

Don't you dare lecture me on being a socialist.

As I said, I have your number.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

25. Looks like someone...

took the "right" turn at Cucamonga....

OMG! Looks like great minds watch Bugs. :)

[HootieMcBoob]

27. how many net jobs have been created in the past three year?

employment is up? LOL you've been watching too much fox news dude LOL As for the GNP I don't believe that growth will be sustained. Just last month consumer spending dropped again. Man you are as blind as a bat but you're funny I'll give you that. We're loosing the so called war on terror because the nincompoop in the white house has our army bogged down in a guerilla war in Iraq. Afghanistan is back in the hands of the Taliban and the war lords. Our traditional allies hate us and the whole world thinks our "leader" is a bafoon and we're fools for electing him. We have the biggest deficit in the history of the world and an enormous trade deficit that keeps getting bigger. Corporate big wigs are paying a smaller percentage of their income in taxes than poor folks. We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world. We work longer hours for less pay. 45 million of us don't have any health insurance at all. Our media and our government are controlled by corporations. What's the difference between a communist dictatorship where everything is controlled by the state and a country where the state is controlled by large corporations? Not much in my opinon. This is not a country of, by and for the people dude. You're living in a plutocracy and you're the perfect tool. Maybe someday you'll wake up.

[wryter2000]

31. Hey, Hootie

As a Canadian friend told me, "We're sorry we called your president a moron. He is, but in all fairness, you didn't elect him."

[dennis4868]

13. I agree

WITH YOU FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

1. 2000 Presidential Election....it will happen again in 2004.

2. Conservative media that refuses to hold Bush accountable for anything....his past or his current actions as pResident.

3. Our party is full of spineless leaders. I really cannot think of one Dem who stands up for what we believe and is not scared to call Bush a LIAR!

I do not have any hope but for some reason it does not stop me from trying to make a difference!

[proud patriot]

14. Pace yourself

Always take time to enjoy the good things in life
lest we forget : why we do what we do .

:hi:

[ramapo]

18. It comes and goes

It is very difficult to watch. I'm rather pessimistic about the future, on a good day optimistically pessimistic.

In a way I'm used to it because I think it's been all pretty much downhill the past 30 years. The last few years have been agonizing. I was sick over the Selection. I just couldn't believe our country had come to that. I'll never forget the elation when the election was called for Gore and the absolutely sick feeling when it was taken back.
I remember Job Bush exclaiming how it was "impossible" that Florida had gone for Gore. How true.

I don't watch cable news, listen to hate radio, or read much of the media spin. That helps.

The politicians are all bought. The country has become an oligarchy. It will take a massive change in the status quo to effect change at the national level.

I try to follow my own advice. Do what you can do to effect the world around you. Don't make yourself sick over what you have absolutely no control over. Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[Kanary]

22. Sisyphus couldn't do it alone...

...and neither can we. And that is the one thing I'd really like for all of us to start looking at.

Thank you, tom paine, for your agreement. I don't know which part you were agreeing with, but I will hope it was the last part, about how none of us can do this over the long haul alone. *THAT* is what we must start looking at.

Several years ago, I had a long talk with a peace activist from Holland. As I told him why I had "lapsed" with the peace movement (because of a lot of hard things in my personal life, and no support), he was aghast that I was just left to drift alone, and consequently had to give up on activism. What he said was an eye-opener to me... in Europe, the peace movement realistically sees it as a long-term commitment, and hence, forms communities. When one individual in that community has a personal problem, they are not left alone and told to "hang in there".... they know, They *KNOW*, that they have people there who won't let them fall... they *KNOW* that they are not only not alone, but that others will rally 'round them, care for them, and help them resolve the personal problems. What a difference that makes!!

He was shocked that we are just left, and told to come back when it "gets better". *That* does not build a movement of strength. We need to take a hard look at our assumptions of "rugged individual", and realize that it's not going to help us to build a strong movement.

Kanary

[Bandit]

32. You see into my mind

I was comparing myself to Sisyphus just yesterday. I am truly saddened by what has transpired in America. When people like Ann Coulter can get airtime to espouse their hatred on a daily basis and WWE is more popular than non-violent TV shows. Violence and Sex are the currency of the day and I'm ashamed. Hatred is the norm from "Christian" establishments. It all revolves around money and none of it ends up in 80% of America's pockets. How to stop the brainwashing? We sure must have pissed off some old Chinese person. We deffinitely seem to be living in "interesting' times.

[LibertyorDeath]

33. Welcome

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/102003_beyond_bush_2.html

[jokerman93]

34. This is an important thread

I'm starting to think that times have changed and our activism must change as well. We do need toi take things to the next level and build real world networks of well informed, mutually supportive local cells of activists.

There is plenty of talent out there, and plenty of anger to fuel it. I don't think it's wise to rely on party leaders and politicians to say what has to be said. The systme, although not broken, is badly out of tune.

My way of seeing it is, we need to all start educating our communities -- not merely campaigning for votes. If we make ourselves a part of our communities in various ways and reach out to people who have voting power, but are uninformed.

That's part of the battle. Artists, poets, musicians, business people, marketers, students, homemakers, communications/technology people et al. We need to build a true underground.

Of course the DU website is not that, but it's certainly a built-in device for those of us who feel the need to take it to the street.

I'm putting together some ideas for DUers in the Bay Area to form a cell.

Why not form cells in all cities and regions where DUers live, and start discussions on what we can tangibly do in our communities to reverse the tide of civic and political ignorance in the consciousness of our neighbors.

I think we'll need to think outside the box now -- but my life has taught me something important: Every problem, no matter how toxic or pervasive, has a solution. There is ALWAYS a way to move a living system back to a state of balance. ALWAYS.

We have to find that way. Dialogue, experimentation, creativity and organized activism.

Lets get to know each other offline and build a network of real-world support and information sharing.

more later...

[Kanary]

35. Jokerman,...

...you're on the right track, and I'm glad to see that someone is thinking and hearing.

Now, one thing... I hear you say the word "support", and I get interested... but then.... it just seems to mean to go out and convert those who aren't hearing the message. You see, that's what we're doing now, and it isn't getting very far. Why? Because people know when they're being used to get a vote. People know when the only concern is for them to "see the light".

How 'bout starting with some real support for those who are doing all they can for the cause, but are really sagging? For those who have already been doing it all, but now don't have a job, or a place to live, or..... We gotta start caring about each other as PEOPLE first, and know the votes will come later.

Take it from one who knows you don't get blood from a turnip.... ya gotta make sure there is blood there first....

You're absolutely right that we can't focus it all on the politicians and recognized leaders.... I'm so relieved that you see that...it truly is up to us. We can't let each other fall by the wayside. Each and every one of us is valuable.

Kanary

[jokerman93]

36. Yes Kanary

Thanks for your reply. When I say support, I do mean support in the same sense you do. In every possible way in fact. I figure, the way to change the discourse is to change the environment in which the discourse occurs.

Changing the culture is what we have the power to do. In a way it's like forming a sugar crystal in water. We have to start with a little string and something to build on. Build activist cells with a do-it-yourself philosphy, keep the doors open, invite people in. Create community within community.

Part of our dialogue needs to be speculative. We need to postulate, suggest, discuss and experiment with ways to create a new political culture -- share our successes and failures -- and evolve.

The radical right is in power now because they have effectively engineered a political and social sea-change over (arguably) about 25 years.

We have the power to do that now much more quickly. We have the internet technology which I believe has barely been tapped to effect cultural change.

[Kanary]

38. Thanks, jokerman

I'm relieved to hear your ideas expanded. Wish I had a nearby cell... hope that you are able to find people for a core group who share your vision and drive, because you are quite right. If you saw my earlier post, you know that Europe has been doing this for a long time now, and it shows.... they are far ahead of us in peacemaking.

One thing I might suggest, if I may.... one of the more revolutionary things to do, to my way of thinking, is helping people actually learn to HEAR each other. We're all so ready with our advice and our criticism, but it's rare that people actually take the time to HEAR and just be there for each other. I would like to suggest the chapter on "Active Listening" in Parent Effectiveness Training. Not only a way to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of community-building, but it's also a basic building block of peace.

Sure wish I had one of those cells near me.... I'm strugging with 3 @((%&#@ drs right now and got bad news this morning. Just badly need to even be able to share that with someone, and have one other person be able to hear my fury, and care about what I'm going through. But, no dice... if I'm not able to "work for the cause", then I best ship out. ....... when will you have that cell up and running? ~~chuckle~~~

Best of luck to you! And, thanks for sharing your thoughts...

Kanary

[jokerman93]

43. I like your idea of listening Kanary

I'll bet lot's of people feel discouraged right now. It's so understandable. I know I have at times. Maybe we should keep this thread alive and encourage DUers to have a place to talk about it.

Anyway, I live in Fremont California which is a unique place in that it has one of the largest Afghani populations in the U.S.

Wondering to myself: whether some of these people have something to say to the rest of us?

Anyway, best of luck to you Kanary and please keep in touch on the boards! Let us know how you're managing the war.

Yours Sincerely,
J

[The Commie]

37. We need to...

...clean the oligarchs out of the Party. Why do you think Dean is hated by the Party Bosses? We will revitalize democracy, which the party bosses don't want. Dinos like Gepthardt, Kerry, etc.; and thier puppets like Clark, are attacking Dean for this very reason. We need to clean house and gout those Gray Davis-ish corrupt dinos outta here.

[billbuckhead]

39. Dean's bright ConfederateNRA future

:puke:

[leftofthedial]

42. I've been feeling like that since Raygun pulled the October Surprise

Since the Bush GOPNAC Cabal stole the election in 2000 though, I've been way more embittered and angry than before.

might as well just forget all about it and be a happy little unemployed prole, watch TV, cast my placebo vote every couple of years and pretend this is the greatest country on earth.

How about those Broncos? And bring me a beer, would ya?