Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Assassin's History

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:31 PM
Original message
Assassin's History
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 02:38 PM by WilliamPitt
Assassin’s History
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Tuesday 4 November 2003

“Robert Kennedy died last night. Martin Luther King was shot a month ago. And every day my Government gives me a count of corpses created by military science in Vietnam. So it goes.”

- Kurt Vonnegut

Benjamin Disareli, in a speech before the British Parliament, once said, “Assassination has never changed the history of the world.” Some terrible decades later, the sentiment was repeated by Robert Kennedy, who commented upon the death of his brother with the Disarelian observation, “Assassins have never changed history.” Benjamin and Robert were both wise men. Both were completely wrong in ways difficult to measure. Robert, specifically, was not just wrong, but dead wrong.

Very soon now, newspapers and magazines and television screens will become filled with images of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. The 40th anniversary of that deadly day in Dallas approaches, and so we will see the Zapruder film again and again, see his head blasted open, see Connolly bellow from the front seat, see Jackie crawl desperately across the trunk of the car to retrieve pieces of her husband’s skull.

We will hear, of course, all of the theories that have surrounded his death. It was Oswald, acting alone. It was the Cubans. It was the Mob. It was the CIA. It was all of them together. At the end of it, however, there is a truth that sets the theories aside. The shooting of President Kennedy was Act Two in a five-scene opera of death and ruin that has forever changed the face and nature of this nation and the world. Benjamin Disareli was wrong. Assassination changed history, and we are the poorer for it.

The first act came in a driveway in Mississippi, on the night of June 12, 1963. Medgar Evers was an African American activist fighting for equal rights for his people in the South. He opened a chapter of the NAACP in the heart of Mississippi, investigated acts of violence against African American citizens, organized boycotts of local merchants who practiced segregation, and brought national attention to the civil rights struggle while fighting to get African American James Meredith admitted to the segregated University of Mississippi. Medgar Evers was shot in the back and died in front of his wife and children on that night in June. He was 37 years old.

The second act took place in Dallas on November 22, 1963. John Kennedy, the youngest President in American history, was shot down in a public execution that still remains veiled in mystery to this day. What is no mystery is the aftermath of his death. Kennedy had been committed to extracting the United States from the nascent conflict in Vietnam he had inherited from Eisenhower, and to ending the Cold War. Upon his murder, Lyndon Johnson dramatically stepped up American involvement in Vietnam, unleashing a hurricane that blew away his Presidency, shook this country to its foundations, and added dramatically to the 58,000 names now listed on a black monument in Washington DC. John Kennedy was 46 years old.

The third act unfolded in a Manhattan ballroom on February 21, 1965. Malcolm X, the firebrand Muslim and former member of the controversial Nation of Islam, was never one to go gentle into that good night. As a leader within the civil rights struggle, his theme song was not “We Shall Overcome” but “We Shall Kick Your Ass.” After a transformative pilgrimage to Mecca, Malcolm began moving towards a more racially inclusive breed of activism, eschewing his former separatist rhetoric and preaching his message to all races. One week after his home was firebombed, Malcolm X was shot fifteen times while giving a speech. As with Medgar Evers, Malcolm’s family was present to witness the slaughter. He was 39 years old.

Act four took place on a balcony in Memphis, Tennessee on April 4, 1968. Martin Luther King, Jr. was by far and away the most prominent, and important, leader in the struggle for African American civil rights. As an organizer, King was gifted. As a public speaker, he was and remains without peer. Arrested over 20 times, assaulted at least four times, his courage in the face of violent racism knew no bounds. King’s organizing principle for the movement centered around the non-violent confrontations practiced by Gandhi in India. His work earned him the Nobel Peace Prize; at the time, he was the youngest man ever to receive the honor. Running through his work for civil rights was a larger struggle for social justice across the entire racial spectrum; King was far more of a radical than our children are taught about in school today. He was shot down while preparing to participate in an action with striking garbage workers in Memphis. He was 39 years old.

The final act came on the evening of June 4, 1968, in the kitchen of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. Robert Kennedy, brother and Attorney General to the slain 35th President, had just won the California primary in his own drive for the White House. Kennedy had become a beloved leader for those fighting for civil rights, and against the war in Vietnam. On the night of Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination, Kennedy was speaking to a large crowd in Indianapolis. All across the nation that night, furious riots broke out, killing 43 people and injuring thousands more. Kennedy gave an impromptu speech calling for the reconciliation of the races in the aftermath of King’s death, and Indianapolis was quiet that night. On June 4, Robert Kennedy was shot in the back of the head. He died two days later. His body was carried from California to Massachusetts by rail, and all 3,000 miles of the journey found Americans standing in silent respect by the tracks as his train passed. He was 42 years old.

From June of 1963 to June of 1968, a string of bright lights became forever extinguished. The hopes and prayers and optimism of millions and millions of Americans were poured out in the life blood of these men on the streets of Mississippi, Texas, New York, Tennessee and California. There is no calculating the damage that came because of their absence.

None of these men were even 50 years old when they were killed. All of them would have entered the 1970s, 1980s and even the 1990s as activists, elder statesmen, and spokesmen for the most righteous progressive causes imaginable. Imagine the good Medgar Evers could have done in the civil rights struggles in the South. Imagine the understanding a newly tolerant Malcolm X could have given Americans about the true nature of the Muslim faith. Tremble at the magnificence of what Martin Luther King Jr. could have done with forty or fifty more years to work. Tremble again at the thought of Robert Kennedy given the same opportunity.

What kind of world would this have been had these men lived? Would Ronald Reagan have even bothered to leave Hollywood? Would Richard Nixon and Watergate have happened? Would the rampant ignorance and selfishness that is the standard issue attitude for most Americans today been allowed to flourish as it has? Would George W. Bush be anything more than a thrice-failed oilman in Texas?

No. No and no and no.

The murder of John Fitzgerald Kennedy forty years ago has, beyond question, done more damage to this nation and the world than we can possibly imagine. Kennedy’s commitment to ending the Cold War would have saved us from Vietnam. Imagine a world where those 58,000 Americans had also been allowed to live out the fullness of their days. Imagine what they, too, could have accomplished.

An end to the Cold War would have allowed us to avoid spending trillions of dollars on a suicidal nuclear proliferation that has left the planet littered with the deadliest of weapons. What other good could that money and ingenuity have been put to?

An end to the Cold War would have meant that the United States would not have armed, funded and trained Osama bin Laden and his cadre of extremist warriors in our proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. The two soaring Towers in New York City, not even conceived when Kennedy was cut down, would still be standing today.

An end to the Cold War would have meant that the United States would not have armed, funded, given aid and intelligence to Saddam Hussein in Iraq, as we would have had no need to fashion that dictator into a counterweight against Soviet actions in Iran. There would have been no second, nor even a first, Gulf War.

The trajectory of the bullets that tore through John Kennedy did not stop, but arced through time and space to cut down Paul Velasquez, Algernon Adams, Michael Barrera, Isaac Campoy, Aubrey Bell, Jonathan Falaniko, Steven Acosta, Rachel Bosveld, Charles Buehring, Joseph Guerrera, Jamie Huggins, Artimus Brassfield, Michael Hancock, Jose Mora, John Teal, John Johnson, Jason Ward, Paul Bueche, Paul Johnson, David Bernstein, John Hart, Michael Williams, Joseph Bellavia, Sean Grilley, Kim Orlando, Jose Casanova, Benjamin Freeman, Douglas Weismantle, Donald Wheeler, Stephen Wyatt, James Powell, Joseph Norquist, Sean Silva, Christopher Swisher, Spencer Karol, Kerry Scott, Richard Torres, James Pirtle, Charles Sims, James Blankenbecler, Analaura Gutierrez, and Simeon Hunte.

These are the names of the American men and women who died in the month of October in Iraq. Added to this list are nearly 400 more names, now including nearly 20 who died on Sunday when their helicopter was blasted out of the sky. Like Medgar, like John, like Malcolm, like Martin, and like Robert, none of these men and women were above the age of 50. Most were hardly into their 20s.

What great or simple good could they have done in this world? What great or simple good could have been done by the Iraqi civilians and Iraqi soldiers killed in this conflict, and the last conflict? What great or simple good could the millions of Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian civilians who were killed in that conflict have done? What great or simple good could have been done by the hundreds of thousands of Afghan civilians killed in our Cold War proxy fight, and in our more recent conflict there? What great or simple good could have been done by the thousands of American civilians and soldiers slaughtered on September 11?

We are forty years gone from answers we will never know. The assassins stole from us all, and God help us because of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent work Mr. Pitt
It hits home at so many levels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theivoryqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sad.
But true. It breaks my heart to realize all we have lost, and so most days I act like any other person and try not to think about it. Sadder because there is nothing to be done to bring them back, and saddest of all that persons of great spirit, intelligence and virtue might be dissuaded from service as a result.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. The 911 WTC
was not the first act of 'terrorism' on American soil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. OK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. And 9/11 would not have happened either
had these men lived. We never would have had to deal with OBL, sending in the CIA to teach him how to kill in Afghanistan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yup
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Heartbreakingly well written, Sir William
:-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks, Tom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I know we don't agree on this, but as far as I'm concerned you can
add Wellstone to the list.

"They're SHEEP! Easily dispersed if we strike the shepherd!"
--Edward the Longshanks, "Braveheart"

Amazing how little the thought process of Kings has changed in the last 700 years, isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Heart-wrenching and so so sad...
"On June 4, Robert Kennedy was shot in the back of the head. He died two days later. His body was carried from California to Massachusetts by rail, and all 3,000 miles of the journey found Americans standing in silent respect by the tracks as his train passed. He was 42 years old."

When I read this, I started tearing up, as I am 42 yrs old and have lost out on all that "great or simple good" that he could have accomplished. As well as the others.

Well written, Will. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nice.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great post but I believe you should of started farther back
in time. The assassination of the arch duke started the chain of events, WW 1 which was practice for WW 2, the formation of the Soviet Union, the cold war. Benjamin Disareli had no idea what he was talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well, I could start with the assassination of Jesus
whose "Love one another" and "Help the poor" talk was profoundly dangerous to the power elite...but this essay would be quite a bit longer. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. A minor point
but I must leap to the defence of Disraeli, at least with all the examples given here, because he said "assassination has never...", and all these examples happened after him (he was paying tribute to Lincoln, and his point presumably was that his death wouldn't change much in the grand scheme of things. If any American history students want to educate me on what might have happened differently, I'll freely yield to them).

Going back before that, perhaps the most prominent assassination was that of Julius Caesar, and since his heir won in the end, you could say that it didn't change much.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Thanks
but it is a lesson why you should never use the word never.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Oh god Will...
I'm crying at work. I hate crying at work. That was beautiful.

They were all gone before I was born and I know that my life, and your life, and the lives of all of us are poorer for that fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. Diggin' the topic, but one possible historical discrepancy sticks out
The murder of John Fitzgerald Kennedy forty years ago has, beyond question, done more damage to this nation and the world than we can possibly imagine. Kennedy’s commitment to ending the Cold War would have saved us from Vietnam. Imagine a world where those 58,000 Americans had also been allowed to live out the fullness of their days. Imagine what they, too, could have accomplished.

Hold on a sec. If what I've read is correct, wasn't Kennedey quite the enthusiastic Cold Warrior? I may be mistaken, but I thought that was a hallmark of his presidency.

Didn't he step up to the line in the Cuban Missle Crisis?
Didn't he attach his name to the "Who Lost China" crowd?
Didn't he campaign for president in no small way by "getting tough with the Soviets"?
Didn't he create the rather vaporous 'Missile Gap' issue?
Didn't he increase our troops in Vietnam from 500 to 16,000, and seem rather determined not to lose it?
Didn't he insist on removing Diem because of his poor treatment of Buddhists?

Is the above historically inaccurate?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. He was a creature of the Cold War, to be sure
He had to be, given the times. But he was going to make it a second-term goal to end the thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Can you supply some links to that?
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. For starters
Freedman thinks that Kennedy would have better resisted the pressures to start bombing North Vietnam in 1965, though he does not press his claims too far, and it is far from clear that Kennedy, in spite of his generally keen understanding of nationalism, understood it in the Vietnamese context.

Yet, in the end, what Freedman shows is undeniably impressive, and the more so for being learned in the front line. Kennedy handled the worst crises of the Cold War in ways that prevented them from becoming hot wars. He recognised that the superpowers had a common interest in cooperation. He ensured, by and large, that American troops did not get involved in shooting wars they could not win, an important consideration for a president running for the re-election he was never to face.

As Freedman very simply says, Kennedy left the world a safer place than it was when he took office. He did not achieve this on his own, or without making mistakes, or with a grand strategic plan. It was enough to have achieved it. We are all alive today in part because he did so.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2001/08/22/story303873.asp

Cooperation over conflict = end of the Cold War.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Gailbraith: "In 1963, JFK ordered a complete withdrawal from Vietnam"
Edited on Mon Nov-03-03 04:58 PM by Minstrel Boy
A lengthy, recent piece by James Kenneth Gailbraith titled "Exit Strategy" on Kennedy's Vietnam policy, and his intention to completely withdraw by 1965, regardless of the course of the war. There's lots here, and it doesn't all come down to NSAM 263.

"Before a large audience at the LBJ Library on May 1, 1995, McNamara restated his account of this meeting and stressed its importance. He confirmed that President Kennedy’s action had three elements: (1) complete withdrawal 'by December 31, 1965,' (2) the first 1,000 out by the end of 1963, and (3) a public announcement, to set these decisions 'in concrete,' which was made. McNamara also added the critical information that there exists a tape of this meeting, in the John F. Kennedy Library in Boston, to which he had access and on which his account is based."
http://bostonreview.net/BR28.5/galbraith.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Woop
there it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
julka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. yeah, some of it is
know anything about NSAM #263?

here

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FRUSno194.html

also, his most memorable speech, given in June, 63, IIRC, called for an end to the cold war, nuke testing, rapprochement with Cuba. lots of people think that was the straw that broke the camel's back, and was what got him killed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. I am in awe
Inspiration is all I can say. The transitions and the flow of this work is astoundingly smooth and wonderfully sewn. Not to mention the powerful content.

Great writing William!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DifferentStrokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. Beautifully done
One quibble. A redundancy.

"a public execution that still remains veiled in mystery to this day."

With a preference to leave out "still", the alternates are:

1. still remains veiled in mystery.

2. remains veiled in mystery.

3. remains veiled in mystery to this day.

I like the brief version because of the graceful flow into the next sentence.

". . .a public execution that remains veiled in mystery. What is no mystery is the aftermath of his death."

A lovely piece of work, Will. Many more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Thanks. Fixed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. Good work
I'm sure you've heard how George Bush Sr seems to be the only American alive during the Kennedy assassination who doesn't remember where he was.

From Kennedy & MLK in the 60s, to Wellstone & Anna Lindh in our own time...why is it that the progressive leadership has the bad habit of being dead just when you need them most?

To the Freepers who might be reading this: Imagine the effect on the conservative movement if Limbaugh, Bush & Gingrich all got assassinated within a few years of each other? Wouldn't you suspect some nefarious invisible hand?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Talk about connecting the dots....that was great.
One of your best yet Will
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. You can add in that if Kennedy had ended the Cold War . . .
. . . in a way that did not involve the collapse of the Soviet Union, we would not be living in the unipolar world we now know.

Having two great powers, with very different socio-economic systems, created an enormous amount of space between them, with room for many gradations and a variety of experiments. Countries could be non-aligned. They could try out different mixtures of socialism and capitalism. They could play off one great power against the other, in a way that allowed them considerable breathing space. None of that exists today, and the world is far less innovative as a result.

Also, as a side note, although it may be true in calendar terms to say Bobby Kennedy died two days after being shot, it was really only something like 30 hours. He was shot in the late evening on June 4 and died in the very early morning on June 6. On the East Coast, at least, it certainly felt like a single day -- though a day that went on forever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. Medgar Evers
Thanks for including his name on the list. I often overlook Evers, and he needs remembering.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught.
They lowered him down as a king.
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.

- Bob Dylan, "Only a Pawn in Their Game"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. Gov't of the people? By the people? And for the people?
What people????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaptainMidnight Donating Member (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. wellstone
Will,

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but I do think we can add Paul to the list.

I saw that speech you gave where you said you changed your mind, and that Wellstone's pilot was "tired" from the night before, a mess, whatever. But there were TWO pilots at the controls that day. Paul had TWO as insurance. There had been TWO attempts on his life before.

I've spent far too much time looking into it. I can't tell you definitively HOW the plane was brought down, EMP, beacon mis-aligned, a stinger missile, whatever. But there was NO icing on that plane, the timing in days before the election where his name could NO LONGER remain on the ballot was perfect, the fact that his WIFE was onboard with him (no more Jean Carnahans!), and the fact that "they" were successful with Carnahan's plane exactly two years before and no investigation, and that Ted Kennedy was supposed to have been on the plane but changed his mind (Ted's survived TWO plane crashes, you know), which was too bad for "them" because it coulda been a Kill A Liberal "Two-fer."

AND again, QUI BONO?

Either way, there's enough evidence there that the whole thing stinks of an assassination.

Captain Mike
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I agree, Captain Mike
Cui bono, indeed!

Two eras, two Bushevik Trifectas

Kennedy
King
Kennedy

Kennedy Jr.
Carnahan
Wellstone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. Beautiful
(wiping away tears)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
33. You're referring to Benj. Disraeli, right?
Sincerely,

Speling Kop
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-03-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Link for this, with some changes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC