Tell me -- am I getting too paranoid even for DU?

[starroute]

I've been trying to stay balanced. I keep telling myself that even if the rich folk all regularly do favors for each other, that doesn't make it a conspiracy. And I keep telling myself that even though the CIA types like sneaking around and spreading disinformation, that's just normal power games. But it's getting harder and harder to hold onto those assumptions of normality. . . .

Maybe the last straw was Starpass's thead about foreigners taking control of American corporations and deliberately aiming to destroy the middle class and reduce America to a third world condition of lords and peons. Or maybe it was Will Pitt's thread about the assassinations of the 60's and how they destroyed the world that might have been. But the fears that have haunted me for forty years are stepping out more and more boldly, and I'm not sure how many more times I can stuff them back into the box marked, "Don't take this stuff too seriously."

The trouble is that I can see two very different versions of recent history, and I don't know which to believe. The not-so-paranoid version starts at the end of World War II, when everyone with any sense realized that the only viable future for the human race lay in eliminating war and unifying the planet. The liberals believed this could be done by everybody making nice -- getting past old hatreds and gradually ceding national autonomy to larger structures, as has been accomplished by the European Community. The conservatives believed it would require one dominant nation using force and subterfuge to bring the rest of the planet into line -- and were determined that that nation would be the United States and not the Soviet Union.

But by and large, the long-range goal has been the same for everyone. Liberals and conservatives, free-traders and socialists may argue about the means, but they've all had the same ultimate dream -- of a clean, shiny, peaceful, egalitarian Star Trek-type future. And if the neocons are presently pushing their particular model of the solution a bit too hard for comfort, their failure will only pave the way for a return to multi-lateralism and multi-culturalism.

As I say -- that's the good version, the one with a hopeful outcome.

The other version of recent history is far darker and older. That's the one I tell myself only on gloomy nights when I can't keep it out. It's a story about the war of the elites against the rest of us. It begins in the late 18th and early 19th century, when a slew of technological innovations were creating a world in which elites were no longer necessary, because devices ranging from the printing press to the railroad were making it possible for ordinary people to communicate and get around in ways that had formerly been possible only for princes.

Once that message became apparent, the elites began fighting back with every weapon they could muster. Outright oppression in the early 1800's. The accumulation of great wealth and corruption of the government in the late 1800's. Another wave of oppression in the early 1900's, directed against such folk as labor unions, Wobblies, and anarchists. Then fascist dreams of driving out modernism entirely and turning the clock back to some earlier era.

But despite everything the elites could do, democracy moved on. Technology moved on. Ordinary people became steadily more empowered, until today we hold in our hands the power not merely of princes, but of gods.

In this version of the story, the concern of the late 40's with peace and world unity was only what was happening on the surface. Just below that surface, the elites were furiously scheming how to maintain their control in a world in which democracy seemed triumphant. (And where the G.I. Bill was creating the best-educated, most purposeful American middle class ever.)

And this is where I don't know how paranoid I dare to get. Who are these "elites"? (Skull and Bones? Opus Dei? Saudi princes?) How coordinated are they? How conscious of their actions? How deliberately connected with the assassinations and other incomprehensible tragedies of the last 40 years? I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but I can see a lot of unpleasant things going on that seem to add up to a consistent pattern:

-- The dumbing down of the American people. Textbooks getting stupider and stupider. Television getting more and more mindless. The destruction or marginalization or cooption by business of all the cultural institutions (from museums to serious theater to symphony orchestras) which used to set a higher standard, an indication that there was more to life than pop culture.

-- The elevation of elite values to the exclusion of "common" values. TV and movies in which only the rich and beautiful are of any significance. The promotion of a life style which 90% of us will never come close to -- combined with suggestions that we just might attain it through lotteries or gambling, game shows or pop stardom. No images of realistic goals or realistic means to reaching them.

-- Use of every possible means to keep vital information and tools out of the hands of the population at large. Secrecy in the name of security. Suppression of creativity and free exchange of creative works in the name of intellectual property. Attempts to convince people that they are helpless, unable to accomplish things for themselves, dependent on the whims of their "superiors."

-- Fundamentalist religion of the most mindless and anti-intellectual sort, used as one more tool to overturn the profound 18th century faith in the power of individual reason to arrive at correct conclusions and make people feel helpless in the face of those who "know better."

-- A continual stirring of the pot of racism, found useful for many reasons, but especially to reestablish the old idea of a hierarchic society, where certain people are just naturally superior to others.

-- Destruction of the 18th century idea of natural rights, and its replacement by the concept that people have only those limited rights which are granted them by their rulers.

-- Undermining of the structures of representative democracy. Corruption of the voting process, not even so much to benefit particular candidates, as to destroy people's faith in the process itself.

I could carry this on further, but I think I've said enough to indicate that I do believe all this is interconnected, that it is part of a war on democracy going on beneath the surface of the visible struggle for world unity, and that to a dismaying degree the bad guys seem to be winning.

My only real question is, just how paranoid am I?

[quinnox]

1. Depends on how deep you want to go

There are some deep waters in the conspiracy theatre.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, as long as it doesn't affect you emotionally.

[ant]

2. the truth...

...as always, is somewhere in the middle.

The good guys always win....eventually. Just keep that in mind.

:)

[KoKo]

3. You have a poweful post. And, some of us get it. I'm at the same place

you are, exactly. Your thoughts have swirled round and round my mind for the last couple of months, and I think around the minds of other DU'ers here with some "history."

This paragraph, in particular is the one which sums it up to me, the question:

"..in this version of the story, the concern of the late 40's with peace and world unity was only what was
happening on the surface. Just below that surface, the elites were furiously scheming how to maintain their
control in a world in which democracy seemed triumphant. (And where the G.I. Bill was creating the
best-educated, most purposeful American middle class ever.)"

This is the scenario which is the most worrysome, but the one I've kind of decided is the true one.

What do we do about this. That's the underlying thought, I think, in your post. If we decide on any of your scenarios of why we are where we are....what do we do? If we disagree. What do we do if we "decide the PNAC'ers were correct (God forbd, but you do throw that out for discussion).

What do we do.....

A Stolen Election, A Corporate Media, Silence for the most part from our Dem Reps, and silence for the most part from sleeping America point to your "darkest" scenario. Which is why it's the most troubling.

But, what to do? Keep "chipping away" in every small effort we can mount? It will take a long, long time. And, longer than most of us here except the very young have left to see. What do we do while we wait and hope doing our "chip, chip, chip?" We need a "life, " to.....and this certainly is not what we thought America of our Youth was about.

Waking up in a nightmare.....that doesn't seem to go away.

[Leados]

4. Sometimes I feel as if I'm living inside of a

movie. When I saw the Towers fall, it was like watching a horror movie, and things have only gotten worse since then, to the point that no one believes me when I say things that make sense to me, like "Iraq was about oil," and "Bush is a liar," and "the republican party has been hijacked by extremists," and so on.

It seems to me that we ARE in for a long, bumpy ride. Seems like the neo-cons will most likely be very influential for a long time. One can hope they won't be, but I'm not THAT optimistic about it. Keep in mind that many democracies don't last much past 200 years, and I think that's because too many people just get f***in lazy about their decisions, and they don't really care about what's going on, as long as they get theirs. What's even worse is that in the past, it was unlikely that a dictator could totally destroy the world, but lately it is very very possible. Especially with a Right-Wing Ideologue at the helm.

Fortunately, something of a 'The Matrix' type of movie is playing out I think, and hopefully the 'humans' (aka people who aren't insane) will wake up and be able to drive off the machines (aka extremists of all stripes)

We shall see, we shall see.

[maggrwaggr]

29. I keep thinking of "The Matrix" too, only it's not our minds they control

but our vision of the world.

Our television sets.

Until we regain some freedom of the media, and some truth to "news" on television, we're under their thumb.

We have to take back the media to take back our country.

It won't matter if we win 2004 if we don't do this.

[leftofthedial]

5. it's not paranoia

if it's true

[frank frankly]

6. right-o

check out fromthewilderness.com and nomorefakenews.com for some specifics on our geopolitical puppetmasters.

[jbm]

7. I go back and forth too...

but I usually wind up siding with your first observation. I think of people like the Kennedys,George Soros,John Kerry and our own Chris Heinze..and they're liberals. I discount the elitist conspiracy because I can think of such good people amongst the elite...and they wouldn't tolerate such a thing.

On all economic levels there are a few twisted minds,and when those twisted minds have money and power they can make more of an impact,but I don't think they represent the majority of any group.

[CivilRightsNow]

38. The word liberal has been stolen

I've been fascinated with what happened before, during and after Vietnam lately. It seems as if we are caught up again in the same exact cycle, saying the same exact things.. not remembering what happened before. (Not you in particular) :)

I found this http://www.hippy.com/php/article-131.html the other day, I've copied some of it below:

"The foregoing facts of recent history describe one main aspect of the estate of Western liberalism. Where is our American humanism here? What went wrong?

Let's stare our situation coldly in the face. All of us are born to the colossus of history, our American corporate system - in many ways an awesome organism. There is one fact that describes it: With about five per cent of the world's people, we consume about half the world's goods. We take a richness that is in good part not our own, and we put it in our pockets, our garages, our split-levels, our bellies, and our futures.

On the face of it, it is a crime that so few should have so much at the expense of so many. Where is the moral imagination so abused as to call this just? Perhaps many of us feel a bit uneasy in our sleep. We are not, after all, a cruel people. And perhaps we don't really need this super-dominance that deforms others. But what can we do? The investments are made. The financial ties are established. The plants abroad are built. Our system exists. One is swept up into it. How intolerable - to be born moral, but addicted to a stolen and maybe surplus luxury. Our goodness threatens to become counterfeit before our eyes - unless we change. But change threatens us with uncertainty - at least.

Our problem, then, is to justify this system and give its theft another name - to make kind and moral what is neither, to perform some alchemy with language that will make this injustice seem a most magnanimous gift."

It is a great read.

Another great link is http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/

If you read some of the papers and stories, it sounds like we are just reliving the cycle, replace communism with terrorism, replace vietnam with iraq.

The question is, did they work all the kinks out to their advantage? It would appear so.

[David Zephyr]

8. Thank Goodness the Democratic Party Fought All of This, Huh?

Not hardly.

Which is why I believe there is simply so much despair amongst longtime leftists in the U.S.

Most of us expected these things from the far right for decades. We never really expected the level of betrayal that we have received from the Democratic Party, though.

Imagine Senator Joseph Biden's recent comments to the effect that the 'American public just don't really understand the Patriot Act and how good it is for them'.

Did you ever think you'd here that from a northern Democratic Senator in the year 2003?

[BeFree]

9. This may not help, but what the hey...

Think about all the looming problems facing this world......then think of the one solution that would end most of those problems for those who survive.....yep, population control is the one solution to all our problems. And it can be controlled in a second. Don't think the gawd damned nazis haven't thought about it....Peace

[many a good man]

10. Snap out of it!

The struggle for wealth and power has been ongoing since time immemorial, since the concept of wealth was created. Alliances continuously shift. As societies become more complex, so do the means and methods of engaging in this struggle.

One ingredient is vital for change: the support of a few good hearted, well meaning elites. Revolutions succeed only when they gain support of the middle class. The formation of a middle class at all was a great victory that altered the chessboard forever.

But one can never claim victory. The people should not rest. The struggle is never over. History is not linear.

So in conclusion: you're right to be paranoid, conspiracies abound.

So get off 'yer ass and DO something about it!

[hang a left]

11. Well I guess I belong in the same club.

Sometimes it is too scarey to ponder upon for too long. I am afraid for my children. I want to run sometimes, but where do you go to get away from it. The 2004 election will be the writing on the wall.

[Kamika]

12. I didnt read your text.. but

If you think you are.. you're probably right

[UTUSN]

13. Yes n/t

[hang a left]

14. Why did you take the time to post a response, yet not give the

poster the respect of reading her comments?

[Eroshan]

15. here is some real scary sh*t

I heard about this group when I was a teenager back in the sixties. I only now ran into this recent article. This is the weirdest thing I can imagine, and the scariest to ponder.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archivebohemiangrove.html

[RichM]

16. This isn't a bit paranoid. It's a concise statement of the situation. Much

of it was predicted a long time ago, & has been recognizable in our society for decades.

Marx wrote about the the ideological "superstructure" of society -- how the entire culture of society functions to rationalize & justify the existing social order; to reflect its values; to expunge any alternative or potentially threatening values. He wrote that this tendency "penetrates" to every nook & cranny of society. This leads directly to the TV/movies you describe in which only the "rich and beautiful are of any significance." It leads to the fact that you can't turn around in our society today, without seeing something that is essentially a shameless "commercial" for the existing order.

A lot of Chomsky books about propaganda start with descriptions of the WWI-era Creel Commission, & the PR work of Edward Bernays. Chomsky loves to describe how our society relies on the isolation of the individual; how it's easiest to control people if you get them all atomized & sitting alone watching television, each thinking he's the only one. Essentially, he's describing the destruction of solidarity, & the manufacture of a pliant humanoid consumer that's easy to control and won't ask too many annoying questions.

Michael Parenti has written some great chapters answering the question, "Who are these elites."

Anyway - you're not paranoid. The worst nightmares of these & many other far-sighted writers are coming true. What you're seeing is the awful truth. It would be better if you were just imagining it.

[rasputin1952]

17. In answer to your query...

You are not paranoid at all; the things you have described are indeed happening, and it is all interconnected.

There are many people that think that the masses of humanity cannot function without their wisdom and grace. These are the "elites" you speak of. Years ago, we might have called them royalty, or some other nomenclature that expresses privledge. They have always been on earth, and they will continue in their quest for domination. I am not sure what exactly drives these people, some are obvious, and some are secretive, but all are sinister.

An obvious one would be Hitler. He gained power by getting people to believe in what he was spewing. But, he could not do this alone, he had to have backing, powerful backing. Many industrialists, worldwide contributed to the early Nazi party. It was after all, anticommunist and antiunion; two thing capitalists are scared to death of. The Nazi movement was an economic movement as well as a social movement, far too often, we fail to put the two together.

What happened in Germany, could happen anywhere. We had checks and balances, until the SCotUS decided to become wholly political. Whenever the pendulum swung one way too far, the SC would bring things back in line. Over the past 30 years, the SC has become far too political. This happened because the Houses of Congress refused to pass sensible laws that could be interpreted intelligently. The SC wound up setting policy, because the Congress could not find the spine to enact realistic laws.

Back to your paranoia. You cannot be paranoid if you are correct. Paranoia is evident when there is an unusual expectation that something will happen to you, or some entity is out to get you, when the facts do not support that point. In this case, since you are correct in your assumption that the gov't is run by "elites" , you are out of the paranoia section and into the seriously concerned section.

You are not alone. I have been fighting these people for what seems to be my entire life, and I'll be damned if I even know who they are. But the results of interference are all around. Education is being set up to give the 'drones' the basics to get by. The wars on 'Drugs', 'poverty' and anything else, are strawmen. There is too much money in illegal trafficking, therefore no real effort is made in these areas. Slavery still exists in large parts of the world. Imagine that, the 21st Century, and there are still indentured servants and slaves in the world. How pathetic is that?

The more the power moves to a central point, the more danger there is in the world. These people are arrogant, but they are by no means stupid. The layers to get to them are thick and well formed. they feel they are abopve all others, and like to use their "superiority" to crush those that would expose the inhuman conditions they perpetrate.

Paranoia, no; concern and action, yes.

Then again, perhaps I should don my :tinfoilhat:. But I don't think I'm wrong.

[Kimber Scott]

18. Life

I get going on those same "paranoid" threads in my mind sometimes, but if I pull them out and look at the ends it seems it's all, pretty much, just life.

"Elites" aren't some omnipresent beings, with a never beginning and never ending organization bent on destroying the rest of us. They're people who, one way, or another have ended up with some money and will stop at nothing to keep it. And just like drug addicts, alcoholics, or any other addictive personality, they're addicted to their money and too much is never enough.

These oil guys are the perfect example. I read this morning Bush was underfunding rail services in this country - thereby condemning commuter travel. This goes along with not making automakers increase gas mileage in the cars they make and it also goes along with drilling in Alaska and blowing up Iraq. It's all about selling more oil. Most of us would say, my God, how much oil is enough? How much money is enough? Too much is never enough for these people. What they don't realize is we - the people - are the goose that lays the golden eggs and their actions, left unchecked, will eventually kill us - and them. No secret conspiracy. Just plain GREED and bad judgement.

As for the dumbing down of America. This is a chicken and egg thing. I have to admit, when you compare Americans to many other cultures, in the intellectual department, we are lazy. But you know, maybe not even that. Have you ever heard anyone say this? "I didn't need no Ivy League learnin' to put food on this table!" Or, "The guy owns a multi-million dollar corporation and he didn't even finish the 6th grade!" American "ingenuity" goes around intellectualism and formal education and "right to the heart of the matter." We don't really value our thinkers. Look at how we treat our teachers, philosophers, (if any American will admit to being one), our artists and musicians - as compared to our football players and hyper-rich CEOs (whose only reason for hyper-richness is simply having hyper-rich friends - not that they have any great genius.) But, back to the chicken and the egg. The networks air what the most of us will watch. Period.

Is this a conspiracy? Is it anything new? Maybe the medium, but not the "baseness" of the masses. Pop culture has always existed. The populace is too tired to think and prefer to have others do it for them. This is what keeps churches, politicians and Rupert Murdoch in business. Global Conspiracy? That's a stretch. There are those who have "plugged into" those masses and know how to push their buttons AND pull their strings. Hitler did it. Limbaugh's doing it. (Well, not right now....) Fox News is doing it. Karl Rove is a master at it. Titus did it when he opened the Coliseum in Rome with 100 days of death and destruction - games. Seems there will always be a class of people who responds best to the worst in us. And those who never want us to look too closely at anything.

I have an opinion about our educational system. It was created to train our children to obey and work in factories, to die for their country, etc. It's not working anymore. History is "niced-up," our brains gobble up and sort out relevant information faster than ever and the kids are bored out of their skulls. It needs an overhaul, not more overpriced "easy readers" and standardized testing systems that do nothing more than make testing companies rich. There is a nagging feeling of "what's the point?" in the schools and probably even in the country as a whole. Could be because we've lost our religion? That's another issue.

There IS a MOVEMENT going on on the "Right." They are trying to rest control of the planet from the "little people." I don't think it's a vast and global conspiracy. I could be wrong, but that seems way too complicated. Luckily, though, "for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction." We had the robber barons. Then we had the New Deal. (Unfortunately, things had to get pretty ugly for a while.) I don't know what to call these guys who are at the top of the heap right now, but they're about to fall. History will name them something. The pendulum has hit its rightward peak and is beginning to swing the other way. It's all a game of King of the Hill. Social Darwinism? Could be, but it's all a circle isn't it? Really, there is no top without a bottom. Like I said before, if they kill the goose, they cook their own. It's life.

[jbm]

21. nice post kimber...

welcome to DU! :)

[Capn Sunshine]

36. AWESOME!

Welcome to DU and I hope a trace of your sensibility rubs off on the rest of us.

[GCP]

43. Excellent post, Kimber. We need to keep our eyes on the ball

and not go off the deep end. Thank you for your dose of reason and sanity and welcome to DU :hi:

[myrna minx]

48. Wow--

What a wonderful post. Welcome to DU, Kimber Scott. I look forward to reading your thoughts in the future. :hi:

[Minstrel Boy]

19. The truth isn't out there, it's in here.

And it doesn't take the Illuminati or alien shape-changers to pull the kind of shit we've seen in our lifetimes.

You're not paranoid, you're simply recognizing patterns of force. Something which, for those paying attention, has been much easier to do since the Bush selection.

Ten years ago I was livid at how the Kennedys and Dr King had been murdered by arms of the state which had never been held to account. Then, gradually, I went back to sleep. I awoke - really awoke - only when I realized why September 11th didn't remind me of December 7th, however much I was told it should. It was because it reminded me of November 22nd.

These are, I'm certain, the times Frank Zappa foresaw when he said:

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre."

For those who still don't see the brick wall, I don't envy them their cognitive dissonance.

[Eloriel]

20. Well, I suspect you already know this

but you're asking the wrong question:

My only real question is, just how paranoid am I?


The question really is: Can you handle the truth?

And if so, what are YOU going to do about it?

Eloriel

[Kimber Scott]

22. ...

JBM - Thank you!

Minstrel Boy - Man, that's deep. I like it. Reminds me of "The Matrix."

Eloriel - Started reading Chomsky not long ago. The truth isn't really that good for the psyche. I went into such a deep depression. I literally cried, What do I do with this information now that I have it? Do I get myself run over by a bulldozer trying to save humanity? No. I don't have the guts. Plus, I have kids and a husband and I like living and I like to paint. So, the way I handle the truth is I got involved in my own little piece of the world - it's the only one I can change anyway, really. I'm awake and paying attention and I will speak my mind and I will call on my elected officials to account for their actions and I will use my votes - wisely. I will paint what I feel and I will commune with good people like all of you. It's the most I can do, right now. Someday, I may be called to more, but in all honesty, I truly hope that won't be necessary.

We really can change the world, a bit at a time.


"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we stand as in what direction we are moving."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Beam Me Up]

23. What is the truth according to you?

I want the truth. I want to know what is really going on, even if the consequence is disillusionment. Much of my life has been a process of becoming further disillusioned.

I want to know, for example, is 'peak oil' a reality? It seems it must be as, to my mind, nothing else can explain why our military MUST (strategically) occupy Iraq, regardless of the cost in lives and dollars. Why else would they have MIHOPed 911? It is the end of 'the age of oil'; the whole of western civilization is about to undergo a dramatic shift--accompanied by a decisive down sizing of global population. Right?

As for what am I (or anyone) going to 'do' about the truth, there is only one answer: Face it. Whatever is coming we are all going to have to face it, whether we like it or not. I've already unplugged myself from a lot of so called 'social reality'. Physical survival isn't much of a concern. Rebuilding the integrity of my 'soul'--that's another matter.

[Minstrel Boy]

25. Absolutely agree with you

Everyone knew - or should have known - oil wars were coming. But it needed, as wars of aggression always need, the trigger of a "just cause."

They have the money and the might, but how bloody unimaginative. And how tragic for humanity that this path was chosen at this critical moment.

[Beam Me Up]

31. "bloody unimaginative" indeed

I'm really not sure it was necessary to sacrifice thousands of citizens to achieve their strategic aims. I think they could have just said, 'hey, yall, we're gona run outa oil and we can't let nobody else have it as they'd then come over here and rape our women and enslave our children, so we gotta go take over I-Rack and defend the Saudis and do it to "them" before they do it to "us"'--or whatever--and few more would have said 'nay' to it than have.

Of course they *did* want to implement the 'USA Treason Act'--paving the way for no longer having to sustain this pretense of a Constitutional government. That alone probably justified 911 in most of their minds.

You're right, for THIRTY YEARS we've known this time was coming. For thirty years any attempt to point global society toward another vision, an alternative vision, a renewable resource vision, has been thwarted by the powers that be. And WE have let them get away with it. NOW we are ALL going to pay the piper.

[Kimber Scott]

26. A Couple of Dumb Questions and a Weird One

1. What does MIHOPed mean?

2. What is "peak oil?"

3. I have been pondering the global population and wondering if all this turmoil is because the earth is just getting ready to rid itself of many, if not all, of us. Do you think the earth has the ability to cleanse itself like that? I mean it is a biological organism and we are overly-multiplying. Is that too weird a question for this board? Does it make any sense?

[hang a left]

27. Mihop=made it happen on purpose

Lihop=let it happen on purpose

Peak Oil=Is the end of the age of oil. There are experts that believe that we only have 35 years left of oil on the planet at current consumption rates.

fromthewilderness.com

[Beam Me Up]

30. Replys to your questions

> 1. What does MIHOPed mean?

"Made It Happen On Purpose" The theory that 9/11 was a conspiracy orchestrated at very high levels of elitist global corporatism (Fascism by any other name). I.e., to the extent that there were 'terrorists' involved, they were being run by operatives whose paymasters were at higher levels of the game. The * cabal is highly implicated; they not only "allowed" it to happen (as in Let IHOP) but paved the way by, for one, standing down our National air defenses.

> 2. What is "peak oil?"

"Peak oil" is the observation that oil production in a given field can be mapped on a bell curve; beyond a certain point the costs of extraction begins to increase precipitously while both the quality and the quantity of the crude oil declines inversely. It is a matter of diminishing returns. Since petroleum is a non renewable resource (used for many things besides the delivery of combustable energy such as fertilizers, pharmaceuticals, plastics, etc., for which we have no immediately available alternatives), as global oil production passes the 'peak' point, the cost of extracting, shipping and refining it will inevitably increase exponentially, driving economic, social and geopolitical instability on a global scale.

> 3. I have been pondering the global population and
> wondering if all this turmoil is because the earth is
> just getting ready to rid itself of many, if not all, of
> us. Do you think the earth has the ability to cleanse
> itself like that? I mean it is a biological organism and
> we are overly-multiplying. Is that too weird a question
> for this board? Does it make any sense?

Evidence indicates that the Earth, indeed, does have the ability to cleanse itself in this way and has done so several times through out geological history. Unlike some, I do not 'worry' about the Earth. She has supported life far longer than we can imagine and has recovered from at least two great cataclysms. The real question is at once 'bigger' and simultaneously far more 'personal'.

[starroute]

35. That really is the question

I think I've been living as though the first scenario was the only true one -- as though the political problems in this country could be resolved simply by working around Big Media, patiently explaining to people that corporations were greedy and tax cuts for the rich were a sham, and finding appealing candidates who could do the same.

The second scenario has been the one I brood about on dark nights, but I haven't actually dared to act as though it were true. To do so would mean making a commitment to something dangerous and unproven. Cutting loose from consensus reality and entering unknown territory. Leaving the company of sane, civilized people and joining the crazy bag ladies who stumble down the street mumbling about UFOs. I don't know if I'm ready for all that.

At the moment, I'm feeling a lot of sympathy for the people in this country who keep saying they approve of Bush's performance because they don't dare to admit to themselves what an evil, soulless, lying traitor he really is. Only what I'm facing is a mounting suspicion that everyone in our government, without exception, is either complicit, corrupt, conned, or intimidated. I see no solid ground to stand on and no happy other side to press through to.

I do have some idea of what I have to do. I have to reassert the wisdom and power of every individual being, and I have to accept and even proclaim the hollowness of all external institutions. But doing that won't be easy and it won't be safe and I don't expect it will make me very popular. So for starters:

Governments are soulless machines. They are useful for maintaining the infrastructure, but they cannot make moral decisions. In particular, they do not have the right to kill and do not have the right to license human individuals to kill other human individuals.

Corporations are soulless machines. They are very efficient at moving around goods and services, but they have no moral basis. They are not fit stewards of the physical, intellectual, or creative resources of the planet and its inhabitants.

Churches are soulless machines. They perform a service by providing gathering-places for like-minded worshippers. But they have no moral authority above and beyond the individual moral decisions of their adherents and become pernicious when they attempt to supersede the individual conscience.

We live in a world of shadows, and only the individual conscience is real. Anything beyond that, if treated as more than a passing tool, quickly becomes a seat of lies and corruption. And that is the truest thing I know.

[lostnfound]

41. What else is real is that you aren't alone

On the wall in front of me are 7 photos of the Feb 15 anti-war demonstrations from around the world. There may have been 30 million out that day. 30 million individual consciences. They are my brothers.

The reality is ugly when you look at it. But it takes great darkness to define a great light. Picture those 30 million demonstrators for a minute. Isn't there a bit of love and hope shining through the faces you see there?

You are the light of the world, let your light shine before men. The words carried from generation to generation, carried to my own Christian-taught childhood -- perhaps a code transmitted like DNA is transmitted in a small seed, hidden from those who would destroy all that gives hope to the masses. A soulless institution used as a tool to pass this kernel of wisdom down through the ages.

History and our lives are full of suffering. Whether they are also full of meaning may be an act of individual conscience.

on edit: and collective conscience, which unfortunately we seem to be failing on. A great quote which I think is relevant: "the struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting".

But with 30 million people you can do almost anything. If you're organized.

[Kimber Scott]

49. Reality is Relative

This is the best thread I have ever seen on a message board. I stayed awake last night thinking about it. Thanks for starting it and thanks so much to those who answered my previous questions.

Here's what I believe about truth and reality. We live in a global community, it's true, and, in theory, it is each of our responsibility to contribute to and protect each other as best as possible from whatever harms may befall us. It's that theory thing that gets us in trouble.

We all live in our own space and through that space we define our realities. I believe MOST people think they are doing "the right thing," (even Hitler), no matter what they are doing. They believe they are doing right either for the preservation of mankind, for the good of their "benefactors," or simply to save their own ass. Within our space we define our truths, our goods and bads, and how we want to live them. I would assume a lot of us on this board believe the world is coming apart the seams. The evildoers are evildoing and we're waiting for the evil to fall on us. People on the freeper board are thinking the same thing. Where we differ is in who we think the evildoers are and how best to combat them.

Any of us, on either side of the line can "freak," give up our powers of reason, give in to the temptations of the paranoias - it really is hard to live your daily life wondering when that giant boot hovering over our heads in going to come down and smash us - or, we can continue doing what we do, and maybe a little more - while maintaining our faculties. If you think it through to the end, does it really matter which way you go, in the grand scheme of things? Only to you and maybe your family and close friends. This is YOUR life, your experience. The only one you get - I think. (I'm not sure about it being the only one, but if I only get to know one experience and know the existence of one life at a time, it doesn't matter if I get millions because I don't know about them!) You can CHOOSE to spend your time here watching out for that boot over your shoulder, or you can enjoy the flowers growing on the ground. That's our only real choice when you think about it, isn't it? (Honestly, I enjoy the flowers and keep peaking back to see how close the boot's getting. Maybe I try to move, but I really don't know how big the boot is and someday, one way, or another it WILL get me.)

So, whether the elites are scheming and the evildoers are evildoing, right now, I'm still sitting here with a roof over my head, chitchatting with good people and my pug wants to go outside. I think I'll get something to eat. Today I have food and I will enjoy it. And... I will continue to ponder because I still have a mind to ponder with.

Remember, "The mind is of its own place and of itself, can make a heaven of hell and a hell of heaven." (I'm not sure who said that. I think it's a Buddhist thing.)

Make some heaven. Enjoy YOUR day.

[Kimber Scott]

24. Has anyone ever read

"The Captains and the Kings?"

[maggrwaggr]

28. the problem with the US: it's never had its ass kicked

The reason the european union is being so successful is exactly because they've experienced the near-total destruction of their beautiful imperial cities and their way of life.

They've risen from the ashes to create something new. They know they can't go back to the old ways.

Not so America. The macho bluster, the holier-than-thou attitude ..... it's all because no one has ever knocked us down and humbled us.

America's got a big ego. It's a bully. Like most bullies, it needs a serious whuppin'.

[maggrwaggr]

32. this is a great thread. I've been struggling with the same thoughts ...

I'll make a little confession. Just today I was trying to get my printer to work. It was making horrible noises, destroying the documents it was trying to print. I thought "maybe if I just hit it, it'll work better".

So I whacked it. No better. I thought "maybe if I whack it a little harder ...."

Pretty soon the printer was completely destroyed and I was hauling it out to the trash.

I haven't done anything like that in years. I'm 41.

I've been spending way too much time here at DU, way too much time fretting over all these things.

Realizing, as you do, that my world, as I used to "know it" doesn't exist anymore.

I've had an earth-shattering revelation, not unlike a child has when he realizes his parents aren't super-human ....... that the world is completely different than what I'd been told.

All my old assumptions are wrong.

And 99% of the United States population is still back behind the wall that I've climbed over.

It's a scary place to be.

I don't really want to be here.

I don't know what to do with this knowledge. The only solutions I can see are, well, just as bad as what these people are doing. They involve extreme prejudice.

So now what?

[hang a left]

33. I feel the same. My life has changed. Everything looks

different. I am paranoid of everything. I know that people say "do something about it". But I am at a loss. I am just little ol me. How can I make a difference.

I know stuff now that I wish, at times, that I did not know. It was so much easier just wanting Bush to not be the president. As repugnant and repulsive as the BFEE is, there is so much more evil going on in this world. I wonder how much time is left.

[RichM]

34. I have that feeling too - of having climbed over a wall, away from 99%

of the population.

What are the solutions you see that involve "extreme prejudice?"

Sorry to hear about your printer, BTW.

[Beam Me Up]

37. Right. 'So now what?'

How deep does the rabbit hole go?

Reality is rushing toward us with the speed and force of a freight train. Some of us have heard the blast of the horn and have looked up to see what is barreling down upon us. Most, however, are--or seem to be--completely oblivious.

But we know it isn't going to stay that way. Sooner or later, one way or another, our day to day experience of living is going to go so far outside 'business as usual' that it will be impossible to pretend otherwise. This happens during periods of catastrophe, revolution, war. It isn't just going to be 'over there' or in 'some' places. It is going to be everywhere. We're all going to be in a situation where many of the things we've come to expect as simply 'being there', day in, day out, WON'T be there.

What would we do, for example, if we lost access to the internet--not just for a day or two, but more or less permanently?

As it happens, however it happens, we're going to be forced to find new ways of coping--actually new ways of living. The powers that be are operating under the assumption that they can STAGE MANAGE this situation (by force, if need be) for the American masses. They may be right--but, all evidence to the contrary, I'm not completely convinced. I think there may yet be some surprises in store for everyone, including the elites.

By the by, we need a database. These 'elites' we keep talking about--they are real flesh and blood people with names, addresses, phone numbers--that sort of thing. We only outnumber them a million or so to one.

[JCMach1]

39. These are several distinct theories of history

The first story you tell yourself is the progressivist notion of history (as constantly moving forward.

The profoundly socialistic in that it views history as class conflict.

Keep in mind, not all conservatives have a progressivist historical view. In fact, fundamentalists typically interpret history in terms of an end time. History has a specific end-point and it has nothing to do with progress. Bush's policies are profoundly and fundamentally Calvinistic in nature. I rather suspect his view of history is as well.

[DemExpat]

40. Great thread! Know exactly what you all mean too.....

I keep one foot in each version......really, that is the only way for me to keep seeking some sense of truth while maintaining my sanity and joy of living in this world.

I also feel that the world has always been consumed by the struggle for survival and power. But on the other hand I have always had deep love and wonder at the beauty and goodness in the world as well.

It really is Yin and Yang.

DemEx

[Lexingtonian]

42. Maybe

Basically, if you can find yourself fully agreeing with the theological worldview of the Gnostics you've gone too far. And reading what you've written, I'd say you're dangerously close. I think you'd be well advised to take a look at it from a distance to understand it, maybe enjoy reading some gnostic literature. Thomas Pynchon's more comprehensible works are good, like the beautiful 'The Crying of Lot 49', for example.

There are alternatives to the Gnostic p.o.v., of which there was a massive breakout during the more psychosis-inducing periods of the Cold War. As there is during very high psychological and ethical stress periods throughout human history.

One is the notion of incremental change. People cannot change all that much of the world during their lifetimes, and they do not much perfect themselves over their lifetimes, is the premise. So each generation does a bit in the right direction, and a new one must be born, and the older one die, before much movement takes place.

There is also transformative change. It is where people are faced with completely different notions of how to organize their life and their world, and it is traumatic to them to go through it. It means periods of order seeming to dissolve completely during which people go wild, and then the slow and painful rebuilding into something with fewer or more bearable problems.

We live in a strange time in which all of these are juxtaposed onto each other or follow in all too rapid sequences. The Soviet threat that was a persistent anxiety for 45 years was horrid- and then vanished into nothing. We live in an America that was 85+% white people when you were born, and when you die it will be 60% or less white. A lot of what you see- textbooks, religion, spurious historical arguments- reflect a change from a Eurocentric culture to a society that is American in the sense of relying on the pre-European heritage. The technological change over that time span is remarkable. The evolution of (nation-) states from their feudal orders to somewhat genuine sorts of democracy will stretch beyond its ends. The amount and sort of material wealth is sort of qualitatively different, and people still don't know how to handle it well. And there is the whole burden of history to deal with, to re-argue and re-adjudicate and revise. There is a hugh amount of detritus, of lives and treasures that go to waste, and endless amounts of squabbling possible.

And people simply have trouble coping with it all, with figuring out the new terms and new ideas on which life is to be lived. All That Is Solid Melts Into Air is how Marshall Berman put our condition. Of course all the old somewhat fluid arrangements of life and birth and death and mating remain the same, but all the Gods most people make into idols for themselves fail too rapidly these days.

You are struck that the American Dream myth is somehow disintegrating. And you have some ideas about "elites" that are insidious. Well, let me point out that real elites do not operate as you allege. The lesser but more numerous sort operate as groups; and they show up as a company or agency or Church or Chamber of Commerce or Klan lodge. They are always in a conspiracy against you to get your money and effort and good faith. The serious elites are pretty invisible, rather few, and they feel secure that their skills and connections are always going to be in demand, and thus always procure them an easier lot than the average person. They have no need to conspire against you; indeed, you will probably choose, or even volunteer, to serve in their causes if the opportunity arises.

The present era is about the system in which these things operate breaking up to some degree. The lesser elites run rampant, the better kind is close to irrelevant as a result, and the common people have to gamble and throw in their lot with the one or the other or some of both. It's not pretty. And of the sense of weakness and lack of order comes a lot of bad behavior and sense of utter ignorance and decline. The trick is of course always to keep your head and choose to survive the chaos with your sanity and your ethics as intact as possible. Then to enjoy the peaceful times, the ones of new and good order, until the cycle of creation and destruction begins again.

The Gnostic, or occultic, perspective is dangerous. It makes Death the supposed god reigning over human life. But this claim cannot be the truth, because it certainly doesn't hold during our better hours and days and years, though we seem mostly to forget about them during the worst. So we ultimately have to live the counterclaim, which is that love rather than power, joy rather than vainglory, is the substance of things that counts.

I don't think I'll succeed in cheering you up. But if you seem struck by the idea that you are responsible for the state of affairs you observe, don't forget that you also have a responsibility to ignore it to a certain degree and live your own life to the fullest of its potential too. We don't need many human sacrifices, but we always do need many lives well lived despite and within and because of their circumstances. You can possibly do far more to improve the collective life with a life that is giving of insight and bliss than one full of the best of political intentions and notions. A place like this message board seems to suggest otherwise, but consider that the premises we share around here are selected and not the only wisdom.

In short, don't let the bastards grind you down. Your life is too precious for it to be wasted in such a way.

[DemExpat]

44. Wisdom in a nutshell, Lexingtonian.....

You can possibly do far more to improve the collective life with a life that is giving of insight and bliss than one full of the best of political intentions and notions.

This is so true!

DemEx

[burr]

45. ahhh yes...the virtues of paranoia!

insanity marked by delusions of grandeur or persecution, not harmful in modest amounts.

In large amounts..anything becomes harmful, or unhealthy. :beer:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Did a coup take place in late 2000? If your answer is "yes"...

...then, IMHO, one can't be paranoid enough.

[MadHound]

47. Good post, unfortunately I think your second, darker vision rings truer

Yes, our society works on two levels, the surface distraction(what we see in mainstream news, what we are taught in school), and what goes on underneath the surface, where brutal covert wars are fought for control of our bodies, minds, and souls. Where if a person is not a power elite, then they are a serf to used and abused. It has been going on this way throughout not only our history, but also European and further back to Roman history. In short, it is, unhappily, the nature of mankind and human society.

However don't dispair. When life has seemed darkest, when evil seems poised to deliver the final blow, we proles and serfs rise up and overthrow our masters. That too is the nature of mankind and society.