Illegal Immigration

[4323Lopez]

hehehe, this is a GOOD topic...
Let's see how my fellow "liberals" handle this...


http://bigjweb.com/artman/publish/article_1631.shtml

"The Southwest, which makes up a huge chunk of land, was built on immigrant labor, illegal and legal. Fabricated history is created to exclude and include what is convenient. This is a prime example of that.

These same discussions have come up again and again. However, I don't see these "Americans" doing something to change the system. I don't see them making any efforts to recruit those so-called Americans to go and take these jobs, to change the economic infrastructure so as to have illegals economically disintegrated from our society.

Why don't people lobby to create jobs in those sectors who predominantely hire illegals(in farming, factories, sweatshops, restaurant business, tourism industry) to pay more than minimum wage, give benefits, and hire those "Hard working Americans?" Remove these millions of "criminals", bus them back, make our food prices go up x3, make us pay more for our clothes, for vacations, for Disneyland, for hotels, for dining out, for our products. After all, this is the land of "laws," "integrity," and "fairness," right???? That's all you have to do, plain and simple. NOT ALLOW THEM TO WORK AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE ECONOMY.

I'd love to see how many "Americans" would line up to pick fruit and veggies in the scorching heat for 10 hours a day, bent over. Don't give me that trite s**t that "Americans" will do the labor. Bulls**t. They haven't for decades, and they won't start now. People are not willing to give up their comfortable lives, their cheap products, cheap food, cheap labor, to supposedly defend laws.

I bet you a million dollars that if they were to do it, they would regret it and scramble around like headless chickens trying to figure out what to do to regain their comfy, affordable lives back.

Just as many people can be labeld racist the views in the article, I can easily be labeled anti-american for mine. But no, I am a proud American, but one who can see things for what they are, one who realistically see both the positives and the negatives of situations in our society.

THAT IS WHAT IT IS TO BE AMERICAN, NOT CONVENINETLY SWEEPING REALITIES UNDER A RUG WHILE WRAPPING YOURSELF IN THE AMERICAN FLAG AND PROCLAIMING YOUR "AMERICANNESS" AND LOYALTY. THAT IS NOT BEING AMERICAN, THAT IS BEING A HIPOCRIT. "

-some recent thoughts from me and my friend Amelie

[Scott Lee]

1. Right on, Brother

You're preaching to the choir on this one.

My wife is Mexican, and we have discussed this very subject to death as you can imagine. There is no way that the cleaning, farming and other elbow-grease jobs would be picked up by most non-Mexicah "Americans". They wouldn't stoop to do it. Some do, but it's rare as hell compared to our Mexicah cousins.

Walmart didn't just "accidentally" let hundreds of "illegals" (I hate that word) on their janitorial payrolls for 2 bucks a day. And you know other big businesses are perfectly content to be quiet on the "illegals" issue because it's a God send to them. The only time they pipe up is when it looks patriotic to do so, or when the economy is in the shitter.

One last thing. These folks are not "illegal aliens". Their ancestors were dwelling in this land and points south for millenia before a bunch of pissed off Brits even spied the east coast.

[4323Lopez]

2. You are absolutely right...

The US was Mexico for 40 yrs, but also thru Mestizos, most of Southwestern states have relatives born here since 1816(me). This is what is documented thru PAPER, mind you. Indians didn't keep records and thru the War others papers got burned. So its safe to say just from proximity we've been here a lot longer than any Pilgram.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. kick porque todos somos indios, todos somos Marcos

and because if I try to start a "Let's Bash Lou Dobbs" thread I bet they'll lock it.

[Nikia]

4. That's occurred to me too

In a slightly differnt form. In order for many people to have a middle class lifestyle, someone has to be making very little money. If more people were paid above a barely survivable wage, there would be more demand. The rich take a certain piece of the pie regardless. Prices would go up. I don't know how we can get around that.
I suppose that it would be bad as far as overpopulation in some areas of the country if everyone can to the U.S. who wanted, but I don't see what most anti immigrant people's problem is with illegal immigrants who are here. It is my personal experience that Mexican and other Latin American immigrants (legal or not) work as hard if not harder than U.S. born citizens. I have always had Mexican friends and find them to be generally good people. I don't know if many of these people are racist or not. I wonder what would be if my ancestors who have been in the U.S. for at least six generations had prevented all those poor immigrants from coming the U.S. during the late 1800's and 1900's. I think it is strange that some of these anti immigrant people do have ancestors that came to the U.S. fairly recently.

[Xithras]

5. I don't buy it...illegal immigration is undercutting our unions

Try to find a good union job in the trucking, construction, or maintenance industries anymore...it's damned near impossible in many areas of the country. Why? Because the illegals are willing to work for a few bucks a day, undercut union wage scales, and make it generally impossible for union shops to land anything other than government work in much of the west today. Illegal immigration simply feeds the corporate monster looking for ever lower wages and slave-like control over their employees, and it needs to be stopped...yesterday.

And as for the historical revisionism that many pro-immigrant types like to spout off about the west being Mexican anyway: When Mexico was freed and inherited the nothern lands of the modern Southwest, there were practically no Mexicans in that land and it was primarily controlled by the few remaining Spaniard descendents and the missionaries. By the time Mexico lost the lands a few decades later, there were still less than 10,000 Mexican colonist families who had moved into this relatively empty wilderness and who were spread across an area from Texas, to Utah, to California.

It's also worth mentioning (though seemingly ignored in mainstream history books) that the Mexican colonists were also slaveholders who took the Native Americans they "freed" from the missions and forced them to work their newly acquired land. Those Mexicans who would claim some kind of bond and solidarity with the American Natives would do well to remember that their relationship is hauntingly similar to that of the white and black. The true heirs of this land are today sadly still largely relegated to their reservations and perpetual welfare state. To them, the Mexicans streaming across the border today are simply the third wave of invaders to stake some kind of claim to their land (first the Spaniards, then the Americans, now the Mexicans).

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[4323Lopez]

7. Jobs other than field work...Union concerns

<<Illegal immigration simply feeds the corporate monster looking for ever lower wages and slave-like control over their employees, and it needs to be stopped...yesterday.>>

This person has made a good point regarding the "corporate" monster and threats to unions. Unions have established working norms that have been undercut by desperate workers. But I'm not sure he cares about the whole corporate thing, he sounds threatened with his "yesterday" comment. His main concern is the preference many employers have for immigrant workers because they are willing to work longer hours and without benefits.
It does undermine the established workers rights that Unions have fought for, but at the same time, at least in CA, he is not taking into consideration the economic problems businesses are having because some unions demand TOO many benefits and have prompted California laws to demand this. It is sucking the money out of small businesses and many are either leaving, or going out of business. Because of this, many resort to cheaper labor to remain in existence. I beleive unions have gone too far in demanding outrageuous benefits, and this is also responsible for causing a riff with employers. However, they would never recognize this!!!

[4323Lopez]

8. Mexican/US history...lets take a look!

<<When Mexico was freed and inherited the nothern lands of the modern Southwest, there were practically no Mexicans in that land and it was primarily controlled by the few remaining Spaniard descendents and the missionaries. By the time Mexico lost the lands a few decades later, there were still less than 10,000 Mexican colonist families who had moved into this relatively empty wilderness and who were spread across an area from Texas, to Utah, to California.>>

Mexico was never "freed" and "inherited." What a crock. They were taken advantage of, being in a vulnerable position and being attacked and fighting three different factions, they were pretty much forced to sell the land. Plus, it was run by a corrupt idiot who decide to sell it. It was taken over, not "freed." lol Regardless of how many people were there, regardless of the conflicts with other Indigenous people, IT WAS ESTABLISHED LAND. Please, history is written so one-sided, it's ridiculous. And these are not my opinions. If you read up on real academics who have studied Mexican-American relations, most agree that this was the most realistic version.

It was an imperialistic nation, under the views of racism, religion, and manifest destiny, that took advantage of a messed up country in turmoil. They viewed Mexicans as "mongrels" and would do anything to spread from "sea to shining sea."

<<there were practically no Mexicans in that land and it was primarily controlled by the few remaining Spaniard descendents and the missionaries. By the time Mexico lost the lands a few decades later, there were still less than 10,000 Mexican colonist families who had moved into this relatively empty wilderness and who were spread across an area from Texas, to Utah, to California.>>

So what, that doesn't change anything. An established nation is an established nation. "10,000 Mexicans" is not a small amount of people when most were ranchers and herders. No, there was not a city, but they were here regardless. What does that change?

[4323Lopez]

9. Mexicans + Native Americans = Indigenous N American peoples...

<<It's also worth mentioning (though seemingly ignored in mainstream history books) that the Mexican colonists were also slaveholders who took the Native Americans they "freed" from the missions and forced them to work their newly acquired land. Those Mexicans who would claim some kind of bond and solidarity with the American Natives would do well to remember that their relationship is hauntingly similar to that of the white and black. The true heirs of this land are today sadly still largely relegated to their reservations and perpetual welfare state. To them, the Mexicans streaming across the border today are simply the third wave of invaders to stake some kind of claim to their land (first the Spaniards, then the Americans, now the Mexicans). ">>


Yeah. alot of the stuff is excluded from history books.

Mexicans don't always claim solidarity with Native Americans. They recognize the indigenous roots, but indigenous people are all different groups of people, as are Anglo-Europeans. What they recognize is the INDIGENOUS PRESENCE, big difference.

I don't know what he is talking about when saying "Now the Mexicans." Mexican indengeous people had been "crossing" the border for centuries, that is a fact. There is also anthropological evidence that Mexican Indigenous groups traded with Native American Indigenous groups in these areas. There was contact, and it was not always negative. So if he wants to be specific, Mexican Indigenous people have always been on the land that is considered the Southwest. Afterall, the word Mexican(Mexica) derives from the Nahua language, the Nahua people being those who inhabited those areas of the Southwest.

The Nahuas then travelled and settled in what is now present day Mexico City. They were invaded, conquered, and what came to be are mestizo Mexicans with a new Colonial European history added to their identity and culture. However it is ridiculous to say that they are the last conquerors when they have been around this region for centuries. It was the Spaniards and Mestizo/Spanish Mexicans, and then Anglo-Europeans who conquered these lands. Talk about "revisionist history" and "excluding" things! lol

***The true heirs of this land are today sadly still largely relegated to their reservations and perpetual welfare state. To them, the Mexicans streaming across the border today are simply the third wave of invaders to stake some kind of claim to their land (first the Spaniards, then the Americans, now the Mexicans). " ****

I've noticed that a lot of online immigrant bashers like to create a rift between Mexicans and Native Americans. In this scenario, Mexicans aren't indigenous people who haver inhabited the continent for thousands of years. They're just Spaniards.

Actually, many Native Americans in the Southwest let illegal immigrants live on their reservations in order to escape the Border Patrol, whose jurisdiction does not extend there.

[David Zephyr]

10. Estoy en Acuerdo!

If anyone wants to know the real truth about what the U.S. did to Mexican farmers, just study up on the "Land Law" and how farms and lands were stolen from them.

Just like the Gulf of Tonkin and the WMD invented threat, the U.S. had a little "Operation Mexico Freedom" and invaded Mexico resulting in a grab for the Pacific Coast and the land in between.

And then, my oh my, there was a discovery of "gold in them thar hills". Golly gee, Gomer!

I'm so with you on this one, 4323Lopez and your friend, friend Amelie!

[4323Lopez]

11. Thanks

I'll check it out. Nice to hear from you.