Dr. Dean, you are not the man to have this discussion

[DuctapeFatwa]

Nor do you want to have it.

It is one of the tragedies of the nation that it is a discussion that should have been had a long, long time ago, but it wasn't, and studiously avoiding it, even after a few announcements of intent to have it back in the 60's, has not reduced its enormity.

It is not often that CNN offers real insight, but they did yesterday, with the little soundbyte from the man in the truck in the street, who said, with matter of fact sincerity, that no, he did not agree with them (the Democrats) because they were "not for the people, but for the minorities."

Appalling, you say? Politically incorrect, gasps your neighbor, hand flying to the modern progressive equivalent of smelling salts, probably Evian.

Not typical of the South, huffs the anxious Deanworker, and that is true and not true, like pretty much anything you can say about the South, it is definitely not typical of for instance, Atlanta, which is about 95% black and 30% AnythingButWhite and 10% rich so who cares, and the rest whites of varying political and socio-economic flavors (You see, when cities spread out and become "Metro Areas," the 100% total rule no longer applies).

If you kurault around, however, you will find that it is sadly typical of a lot of places that aren't anywhere near the South, and while this may be hotly and indignantly and self-righteously denied by desperate Democrats and oilysquinted Republicans alike, if you leave the white-dominated lunch counters of Politics, Inc. and wander into the projects and the 7-11s and the hip-hop corners, you will talk to some folks who have a different view.

Dean is not the only man in America who does not even begin to grasp the realtity of how polarized US society is. In fact, he has so much company that no one who knows him has taken him gently by the arm and shaken their head, you don't want to go there, trust me.

Because while I may see Dean as just another bushlite ectomorph whose main distinction from a gaggle of others is his refusal to move his head under any circumstances, CNN's man in the truck, and his legions of ideological brothers, see Dean as just another wacko socialist extremist, whose goal is to give the whole damn country to the blacks and the foreigners and queers, (except many of them will use their own colloquiallisms for the various groups involved).

Tents don't even come that big, and to have one special made takes more time than Dean or any other candidate has got.

Rev. Sharpton pointed out that you "don't bring the Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood," and I doubt that the Rev needs me or anyone else to point out to him that the table of brotherhood has not even been set yet, nor the chairs set up. They are still stacked out in the hall, and some of the stacks have fallen down and left a tangle of cheap aluminum in which rats have made their nests.

When Dean says we need to have this discussion, he is right, but it is not likely that he realizes what that discussion would be, or what he would have to give up to have it.




In accordance with the Uniform Code of Shape-Shifting Posting Rules, Volume 23, Chapter 87.5, Section vv-t, Paragraph mcmxviii, I have neither endorsed, volunteered for, contributed to, had sex with, or received crack from any candidate or fat-free candidate-like substance, nor am I employed by, affiliated with, or scheduled to have brunch with any regime or any government or principality, legitimate or illegitimate, natural or supernatural, nor any corporate entity, political action committee, focus group, quality circle, task force, college of cardinals or manufacturer of snack foods, and my views do not necessarily represent those of this site, the Vatican, Al Qaeda, or the Coca-Cola company, and I specifically deny knowledge of any pending agreement between myself and any combination of the above entities and Sanrio.

[Kolesar]

1. Your post is bereft of a thesis statement

Sorry, I just found this to be a very hard read.

[moz4prez]

7. hmmmm

a white, southern, middle-class and slightly-left-of-center friend of mine actually took slight offense to Dean's remarks about confederate flags. He said, in a nutshell:

Dean said he wants to be the candidate for pickup trucks w/ confederate flags. Then when asked about it he said that the poor white vote is a vital one, as if ALL backwards southerners are POOR. He doesn't understand that they run everything down here, he doesn't understand southern political culture.

Of course it could be argued that my friend is the one who doesn't understand southern political culture. who knows? I think he makes a valid point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Southern Political Culture....

Dr. King said some of the worst racism he had seen was when he went up north....

[maha]

13. He didn't say poor white vote

He was talking about workig class whites, not poor whites.

Let's not bash the guy for words somebody else put in his mouth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Live In An Area In The South With Lots Of Construction

I haven't seen a Confederate flag on a car at a construction site in years....


In fact I travel suburban, urban, and rural Florida frequently and have seen one Confederate flag in the past three or four months....

[maha]

26. If you read through this thread

... you'll notice other people have witnessed different things.

I live in New York now, and display of a Confederate flag here, especially in New York City, is almost unheard of. But back home in the Ozarks ... way different story.

[Mike_from_NoVa]

41. just get off i-95 in fredericksburg va and drive down rt 3 or rt 17

You won't miss the confederate flags, confederate flag decals, Dale Earnhart tribute number threes, and the urinating boy decals on the plentiful pickup trucks. Necks are pretty red in Fred. Maybe the guys you're looking for in FL are all out of work or you frequent construction sites where cheap immigrant (legal or not) day labor is used instead. And I'm sure there are plenty of those in Florida too.

IMO, Dean has the right idea to openl discuss reaching out to this largely underemployed segment of the electorate. But he should have referenced "Piss Boy" or "#3" decals or maybe Toby Keith instead of the confederate flag.

[moz4prez]

25. oh,

then all backwards southerners belong to the working class?

[maha]

27. He didn't say "South."

Yet me know when you're ready to comment on what Dean actually said. Thanks much.

[sangh0]

64. He said "Confederate flag". That's not a yankee symbol

Let us know when you stop closing your eyes to the obvious.

[ModerateMiddle]

73. No, no, he said "poor white folks"

he absolutely said "poor white folks".

[Kolesar]

This entire thread is based on previous threads' exchanges, so I am lost

oh well

[ModerateMiddle]

72. "doesn't understand southern political culture"

I think this statement, coupled with his assertions about the south and how we ought to go about winning the "bubba" vote, represents a lot of what concerns me about Dean. Someone else quoted this morning that Dean "wades unthinkingly" into areas where he doesn't understand the complexities. I believe that Dean is a "decisive" person, who is understandably frustrated with the Washington process which takes so long to get things done. But he is too decisive, too quickly. IMO, he gets a "gut take" on something, and then insists that he's right.

When you add to this mix the fact that he seems to react angrily to questioning, I don't feel he would make a good President for us in these times.

The article in the NY Times (where he did an interview) painted a picture of a man not ready for the big leagues, IMO.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kolesar]

108. That wasn't very nice

Seriously, he starts out with "this discussion" and never defines "this discussion". Further, the paragraphs are not tied together with connecting words or clauses.

I suppose that his thread-starter would have made sense if I had been following all of these futile arguements over Dean's confederate flag remark.

[mandyky]

2. I think Dean is the man to take the first step towards

reparations. The first step would be simple, to gather support in the country to word a public apology to black Americans whose ancestors were slaves. Then we could go from there, and do it in an inclusive way.

[blm]

66. Baloney. Dean lied. He was answering a query about the NRA not race

and now he's saying he was trying to start a dicussion about race. BULLSHIT!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. It's Early So I Don't Have Time To Develop My Thesis

but I think it was Malcom who said "racism" is as American as apple pie....

Were the five cops who beat Rodney King senseless southerners?


Was the cop who put forty two shots in Abdu Dialo a southerner?


Were the cops who sodomized Abner Louima with a plunger southerners?


Is Howard Beach in the South? ... A bunch of Howard Beach locals chased an African American to his death for having the temerity to date a white girl....

Racism isn't endemic to the south..... It's pandemic to America.....

As a white southerner who digs Dr. Dre, Public Enemy, Malcom, and Dr. King don't lump me in with the Confederate flag waving, country music loving, tobacco chewing yahoos......

They are so rare anyway you could put them in a museum...

[sandnsea]

12. Those flag wavers are everywhere

Even out here in my tiny little town on the Oregon coast. And certainly all southerners aren't racist, but I don't think that's the point of this poster. It's the idea that there are people who don't like the Democratic Party because we're the party of degenerates, criminals, lazy people, and *insert racial slur*. Denying that this thinking exists because you're offended by the Confederate Flag brush isn't helpful. You should be offended by that broad brush, but I'd also like to ask you to help confront the people who deserve to be painted with it. I don't want to take one more step backward on racism and I am fearful we're about to do just that.

[maha]

15. What Dean said, and what he didn't.

Howard Dean did NOT say all Southerners are racists. He didn't even say "South." Nor did he advocate Confederate flag displays or pandering to racists.

For the record, the flag remark that recently detonated in the national media is this: In response to a newspaper story that he had received favorable ratings from the National Rifle Association, Dean said, "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

People have gotten hysterical and twisted those words to mean that Dean personally endorses display of the Confederate flag, and/or that all Southernors are bigots.

What's happened is that the words "Confederate flags" stirred up OTHER PEOPLE'S PREJUDICES about the South and white southerners, and these people are now flapping about in absolute hysteria and reading all kinds of nonsense into those words that just aren't there.

Chill out.

[sandnsea]

23. It's what he hasn't said that matters

He says he wants to have a debate about race, but he hasn't.

Then he says he wants to be the candidate for those guys with Confederate Flags on their trucks, a few of whom live in my own town, with no confrontation about how insulting that flag is to African-Americans.

He's not having a debate about racism and that's my problem with this whole thing.

[maha]

29. How can he have a debate?

One sentence out of his mouth and the knee-jerkers come out in force to scream at him to shut up.

I'm sure he'll have a fine debate as soon as there are people ready to listen to it.

[sandnsea]

32. He's had since February

That's when he first started wanting to talk TO those Confederate Flag wavers. This time, he wants to be the candidate FOR Confederate Flag wavers. That's a real difference.

Anyway, what's he said since February? Show me where he's talking about racism. Not voting on health care and education, that's not talking about racism. He hasn't had a debate on racism because that's not what he meant. He meant let's forget about all this race stuff and vote on something else for a change. That's not going to solve the problems of racism in the south or anywhere else in this country.

[Melinda]

69. Dean on racial issues:

Governor Howard Dean said today that he would take federal action, including withholding federal funding, against state and local law enforcement agencies that engage in racial profiling. As president, Dean would use the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to label racial profiling by law enforcement as a form of discrimination. "Let's start calling racial profiling what it is--discrimination based upon race," Dean said. - 7/14/03
-----------------------

Statement on March on Washington

"Forty years ago today, a quarter of a million Americans peacefully protested the nation's unjust segregationist policies. Those patriots of all races and from all walks of life joined together on the Washington Mall to change their country and fight for basic civil rights and equal rights for all Americans. They listened as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., outlined his vision for an America where people were judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

" Today, Dr. King's dream is being attacked by an administration that seeks to unravel the decades of improvements made on civil rights and gaining equal rights for all Americans. Our civil liberties are under assault, our moral role in the world has been compromised, and we've seen progress on issues like the civil rights and the environment reversed by an administration that seeks to divide us once again by race, gender, sexual orientation, and income. Just as those 1963 marchers changed the course of the country, we must today take another stand to set right the course of American society. We can take our country back, and, as Dr. King said, we must let freedom ring." -Howard Dean, 8/28/03
-----------------------
Statement on the 40th Anniversary of the Birmingham Church Bombing

"In September 1963, I was 14 years old and just beginning the 10th grade. I remember very well the tragic bombing in Birmingham and the senseless deaths of those four girls: Denise McNair (11), Addie Mae Collins (14), Carole Robertson (14), and Cynthia Wesley (14).

"These girls were my age. I knew then that America needed to change. America still needs to change. Although racists bombings are for the most part a relic of the past and voting rights have been extended to everybody, we must never forget the things that these young girls died for--equality for all Americans, programs for affirmative action that ensure access for all Americans when it comes time to apply for a job or for a place in college, and the freedom for everyone to live ordinary lives free of hate and discrimination. Forty years after the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, we still have much work to do, but I have confidence that working together as a community there's nothing that we can't accomplish." - Howard Dean, 9/19/03
---------------------

[sandnsea]

76. Racial profiling

That's good. It addresses a specific problem of racism in America and admits that it exists.

But the last two don't. The second one talks about the Administration seeking to divide people and they both throw everything into the same mix, including income. Since he's said he believes Affirmative Action ought to be based on class, not race, these kinds of words are exactly what concern me. If he wants to talk about racism in America, he needs to do more to address the fact that it still exists and more work needs to be done to stop it and fix the damage.

And finally, these are two speeches specific to historic civil rights events. What's he saying the rest of the time, when he says he always talks to white people about race?

[Melinda]

80. Perhaps you should hear him speak directly

Instead of forming your opinion based on soundbites.

Dr. Dean speaks on these issues around the country, all the time. You stated Dr. Dean had remained silent since 2/03 -- obviously he hasn't, and you are wrong. Another statement from Dr. Dean:

Racial Profiling Reprehensible:

I condemn the practice of racial profiling. The unjustified use of race in making routine law enforcement decisions such as traffic stops is wrong and unconstitutional. Stereotypes and false generalizations have no place in law enforcement.

Racial profiling is ineffective. Statistics show that racial generalizations do not accurately predict criminal conduct. Profiling is no substitute for good solid police work.

Racial profiling is a prime source of the massive racial disparities in the criminal justice system. Minorities are no more likely than whites to use drugs, but disproportionate law enforcement attention means that minorities are disproportionately arrested, charged and jailed for drug crimes.

The recent Justice Department guidance banning racial profiling is a useful first step, but it falls far short of what is needed:

It applies only to federal law enforcement agencies, not to state and local officers who conduct most street-level enforcement, including traffic stops;
It contains no mechanism for victims of profiling to enforce their rights in court;
It does not require agencies to collect data on the race of the people they stop, an element that experts believe is essential to measure and remedy profiling practices;
It contains an overbroad immigration and national security exception.
The immigration exception is especially unwarranted. Workplace inspections and other discretionary activities have been a significant source of ethnic profiling.

And we can hardly trust John Ashcroft’s Justice Department to define the line between national security activities and routine law enforcement.

As President, I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws the 1964 Civil Rights Act to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from departments that violate those regulations. As President, I will also work for passage of the End Racial Profiling Act sponsored by Representative Conyers and Senator Feingold.

And if that’s not enough, I’ll go to Congress and ask for even more authority to combat this serious problem.

[sandnsea]

84. Again, racial profiling

Is that all he's got? I've listened to every debate and several speeches. Saying that white and brown and black people need to vote together isn't talking about racism.

[Melinda]

85. You said:

"Anyway, what's he said since February? Show me where he's talking about racism".

So I do.

You retort "Is that all he's got?".

I give up.

[sandnsea]

89. racial profiling

That's a policing issue. It's something and I'm glad to see it, but it's not a debate on racism between the brown and white and black people like he says he wants to have.

[Melinda]

99. Debate/Discussion - takes at least two

Dr. Dean continues to speak out on this issue, perhaps the CBC might set the debate.

Again, Dr. Dean says:

"Race is a difficult subject in America. Politicians often tell black audiences that they believe in civil rights and affirmative action. Some talk about their own experiences in the Civil Rights movement. Some are now attacking the use of the word quotas in front of white audiences. Doing all of this is important.

But it is not enough.

No white American can understand what it means to be black in America. Things have improved significantly for African Americans in this country since 1964. However, it is important to recognize that the Civil Rights Movement was largely a victory over legal segregation. Discrimination still exists, and we must continue efforts to eliminate it.

Polls show that the majority of white Americans believe that race is no longer a big factor in American life, and that equality of opportunity has mostly been successfully incorporated into American political and social culture. Many white Americans assume that whatever segregation remains in the public school systems and universities around the country is either self-imposed or the product of neighborhood schools.

Bill Clinton is the only President or white Presidential candidate I have ever heard talk candidly about issues of race in America. Black Americans still believe, with some justification, that white America does not understand the historical scars left by slavery and Jim Crow, scars which cannot be erased in a generation or two. Black Americans often mistake white indifference or lack of understanding for racism, which is the case in only a small number of instances.

But many white Americans don't understand that indifference and lack of understanding does lead to institutional racism, where, despite the best intentions of the individuals who run the institution, day-to-day hiring practices only reinforce African American fears and suspicions of bias. Just last week, a Wall Street Journal article reported that white job applicants with criminal records were more likely to be called back for job interviews than African American applicants with clean records.

Affirmative action is still needed in order to overcome the unconscious biases that all Americans of every ethnic group have toward hiring people like themselves. And the discussion of that unconscious bias is essential if we are ever going to bridge the gaps between white America and not only African Americans, but the Latino community, Native-Americans, Asian Americans, and women of all ethnic backgrounds.

Talking about race means more than merely mentioning civil rights or condemning the President's use of the word quota. Talking about race means confronting ourselves with the vastly different perceptions that we have about each other, and trying to walk a mile in one another’s shoes.

Race is not simply a matter of civil rights; it can influence the right to thrive and prosper in American society. A discussion of race is incomplete without addressing the impact of race or ethnicity on the ability to access affordable health care, quality education and the capital to build businesses and create wealth.

It is particularly important for white candidates to raise these issues in front of white audiences. This kind of message can be too easily dismissed or pigeonholed coming from a member of a minority community. If America is going to prosper as the most diverse nation on the face of the earth, we are all going to have to take responsibility for the stereotypes we have of each other, and debunk them.

Let us each commit to do our part."

[sandnsea]

101. On the African-American web site

Why isn't it on his main web site? I really want to know where he's talking to white people about racism in his regular speeches.

This is very good, I wish he had taken this approach regularly, instead of talking about wanting to be the candidate for Confederate Flag wavers.

[sangha]

117. Dean blows smoke on racial issues

He talks a lot about racism, but if you pay attemtion you'll see that there's little in the way of concrete actions to improve the lives of minorities. He confines himself to what propogandists call "glittering generalities" like "vote together", "end discrimination" and "racial harmony good" but little about the specific concerns of people of color. And nowhere in those quotes, and nowhere on his campaign website will you find a mention of the fact that in 1995, while the Republicans were fighting to end Affirmative Action, Dean argued that we should end the use of race in AA, and use class instead.

[mbali]

119. So you must LOVE John Edwards

who is doing more than just talking about racial profiling and other race issues. Among other things, he has introduced (along with Lieberman and Kerry) anti-racial profiling legislation in the U.S. Senate.

[bearfartinthewoods]

121. and he has the experience and acumen to avoid the pit that Dean dug

for himself by trying to start a very sensitive discussion in a very insensitive way?

[mbali]

122. Edwards has a near "Clintonian" comfort level on race

Of course, no one rocks like Big Dog when it comes to dealing with race issues. But John Edwards has impressed me with the comfort level he has shown both in addressing race issues and being around black folks. Not only is he sensitive, he's not overly-sensitive.

This is apparent in many ways, but the debates are a good example. For some reason, he often seems to get placed next to Al Sharpton during the debates and in several instances, has had to follow him after one of his priceless zingers. Unlike some other candidates, who seem to feel that they must either try to top Sharpton's one liners (message: don't even try) or turn and shout "Amen, Brother!" at him (yeah, Lieberman - I'm talking about you), Edwards usually does just one thing: he stands there and cracks up.

That might not sound like much, but as a black person, I am very gratified when I see white politicians who don't feel the need to morph Zelig-like into a black person whenever they're in the presence of minorities. John Edwards just stays the same whoever he's with. He is not the white guy at the black party spouting ebonics and trying to dance the funky chicken. He the same person regardless of the situation he's in.

Everything I've seen about his campaign reinforces that impression for me. He doesn't claim to be an expert on civil rights or lecture others about it or insist that he's doing so much more than anyone else. He doesn't change his rhetoric or his message depending upon the audience he's addressing. He doesn't speak to black audiences in front a grafitti backdrop or claim that he's a big hip hop fan when everyone knows he isn't. He just tries to do the right thing, admits that he is still learning and often asks for help in dealing with the issue.

And I think that's great.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. The Only Point I Am Trying To Make Is The Confederate Flag Is A Bad

metaphor for southern attitudes......

I wonder how many people making these claims have lived in the south, have studied the south, have went to school in the south......

I am in a business that requires me to travel quite a bit... I travel through urban, suburban, and rural Florida and have seen one Confederate flag in the past three or four months I'll swear to that....

Most folks who harbor racist feelings aren't going to attest to it by flying a Confederate flag......


The racism is much more subterranean and therefore more invideous....

[sandnsea]

22. Oh I know

I have family in the south. I've also lived in Montana most of my adult life and see alot of similarities. Independent, self-supporting, community and family.

I see the Confederate Flag more as a metaphor for racism across the country, not specific to the south. And I really do know young white males right here in Oregon who fly that flag and are racists. You might be surprised how open high school kids think they can be about their racism these days. It isn't right to pretend racists are only in the south, probably one more reason the south votes Republican. Maybe Democrats need to start talking about racism in the north and west instead.

I'm just saying I want to really talk about it because I hear it out here in rural white America a whole lot more than I would like to. I'm really concerned that if we miss this opportunity and pacify those white males by removing race-based programs, we're just going to pass off the problem for another 100 years.

[maha]

31. My experience is different.

Grew up in southern Missouri, which is just north of Arkansas. Stronghold of Confederate flagness. My old high school was rebuilt in the mid-1990s and the image of a Confederate flag -- school team symbol for the Central High School Rebels -- was inlaid in the floor near the entrance.

This means people are walking on it all day long, so I didn't complain.

But I've known Confederate flag wavers my whole life (I'm 52), and many are good-hearted, salt-of-the-earth people. They may not be paragons of racial sensitivity, but they aren't Klansmen, either.

The point is that the Confederate flag can mean a lot of different things to different people, and I don't agree with shunning every human being on the earth who displays it as if they were diseased.

[Ripley]

40. My family is from North Carolina and I agree with you maha.

The Confederate flag is not a Nazi symbol. All blacks don't take it that way. And to equate the flag with racism ONLY is wrong; it means more than that. But people who know NOTHING about the south love to claim they know it all. Edwards shot himself in the foot with my left-leaning relatives in NC.

You got it right. They are acting as tho people who have it on their truck are CRIMINALS.

[sandnsea]

44. The Civil War wasn't about slavery either

I've heard all the apologies from the south about the war, jim crow, segregation, and that flag. Bullshit. I'm sick of it, I reject it. The south was built on slave labor, the south wanted to keep slave labor, the south glorified plantation owners and the genteel way of life, the south was wrong, they lost the war, put the damn flag down.

[Ripley]

46. So you think every person who has a confederate flag

is a criminal? Should be arrested? Most whites in the south did not have plantations...they were poor. You seem to like making generalizations. About the war, the flag, the white people.

But hey it's only "stereotyping" when you do it to minorities, right?

P.S. I don't have a flag, just some old Confederate money my grandmother gave me. I don't like the connotation the battle flag has. However, I live near the University of Alabama and every other male has it on his cap, truck or shirt. There is a store in my mall that sells nothing but confederate flag merchandise. My city has a large black population. If it bothered them so much, don't you think THEY would boycott, protest or do something in the legislature since they are numerous in Montgomery?

Maybe they get it. They don't feel threatened the way you do.

[sandnsea]

48. A criminal? Arrested?

I said that?

The southern plantation owners created propaganda that poor white farmers bought into in the 1800's and it hasn't stopped. The mythology goes on and on and on. Sooner or later the south is going to have to accept that they fought to keep African-Americans slaves and that it was wrong. It wasn't them, it was their ancestors. It's just the way it was. Stop glorifying the goddamn war and that goddamn flag and maybe we could start making some progress with racism.

[Ripley]

52. I, myself never glorified the flag or war. You are making that up.

The truth (not Mythology) is that THERE ARE PEOPLE (INCLUDING SOME OF MY RELATIVES) WHO SEE THE FLAG AS A SYMBOL OF SOUTHERN PRIDE. You will never understand this I know. And I'm sure you will just call all of my family racists.

[sandnsea]

58. They're WRONG

I never said you glorified the flag or the reasons for the civil war either. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I perfectly understand southern pride, 100%. But that flag has nothing to do with it. It's a completely misguided expression. That flag is the Confederate Flag from the Civil War. That flag was reintroduced during the 50's to symbolize the rejection of desegregation. Your family needs a history lesson and I challenge you to give it to them. Sit down and tell them the facts about that flag and how it's been used in the past. Then see if they still think it reprepresents their southern pride. I don't think they will. None of my family or any of the families they married into fly that damn flag. It's time for the south to join the United States once and for all. Make a new flag with a magnolia on it or something. It's time to put THAT flag down.

[Cheswick2.0]

125. funny, us northerners don't need a flag to represent our northern pride

I wonder why that is. Why don't we fly some Union regiment flag or something?

The confederate flag should be a symbol of southern shame not pride. The war was fought because the south wanted to retain states rights... specifically the right to own other people, breed them and sell them like cattle. WTF? Anyone could build a gracious, prosperous with slave labor.
Like someone said above, what we now know as the confederate flag was only brought into popular use in the 1950s when the south rejected integration.

[Ripley]

39. He did not use it as a metaphor.

Can't you people get it yet????????????????????????

He is talking to a specific group of people down here. If you don't think they exist, you don't live here or you live in a very "northernized" insular city like midtown Atlanta.

I go through rural Florida all the time and I see Con flags all the time. So you are extremely disengenuous to say you've only seen one. Well, yeah, maybe not on the freeway.

The Confederat flag on a truck does NOT make someone a racist.

Get over yourself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. I am only reporting what I see...

"Get over yourself"

Sorry... I don't like the Confederate flag and Thank God I went to the University of Central Florida and Florida State University ... We don't fly the stars and bars at those colleges...

[jonnyblitz]

28. yup

Unfortunately even "librul" Boston has some ugly racist incidents in its not so distant past.

[JNelson6563]

4. Who are you to determine

who should be having this discussion??

Get over yourself.

Julie

[DuctapeFatwa]

33. I'm someone who thinks he wants to be President

I admit I do not know him, and he has not told me that personally, but it is my opinion that he does.

US politics, especially at the presidential level, is a rich white man's game.

The polarization, racial as well as economic, is such a huge elephant that addressing it is beyond the scope of corporate politics, and if Dean, or any other candidate, were to delve too deeply into it, even though they did not scratch the surface, he would effectively forfeit his place as a serious contender for national office.

Had Dean said that he wanted to be the candidate of the single mom in the projects, or the candidate of the thug with baggy pants on the corner, and have a discussion about that, the result would be no different, you would just have different people saying the same things in different words.

Add to that the fact that only the top 25% income tier votes, and the reality that if that were NOT the case, ponder what the issues would be then, who the "leading candidates" would be then, and you will understand why the polls are open only for 12 hours on a working day, and why in all this time, neither party has sought to change this on the national level.

Political reality is what it is, and societal reality is what it is.

You don't have to approve of it or agree with it. I certainly don't.

But approval or agreement or dis from you or me does not change either.

[JNelson6563]

45. So the white folk can't address racism?

Ok, now I understand where you're coming from.

As a white I'll just sit down and shut up on the topic then. :eyes:

Julie

[DuctapeFatwa]

53. Not if he wants to be a serious Presidential candidate

Nor a black man, either. Or a brown one.

I'm assuming that you really did not understand what I said, and are not just looking for someone to get in a fuss with, so I will try to explain it very clearly.

The nation is very polarized, divided, along racial and economic lines.

The participation of the poor and ethnic minorities is not very great.

The polls are open for only 12 hours on a workday, just for starters.

If the US system made it easy for poor people to vote, things would be very different.

Poor people have different concerns than rich people.

Their concerns are so different that it would in effect be a revolution, and it is unlikely that any of the current candidates would be serious contenders, with the possible, but by no means certain, exception of Al Sharpton.

The issue of the racial and economic divide is so large, and its implications for the most fundamental political principles and structures of the country, that it is not something that can be addressed within the framework of corporate politics.

It is not likely that any of the candidates are aware of this, and had Dean been aware of it, he probably would not have said what he did.

[lapislzi]

55. OK, but do you have a point here?

Yes, it's polarized. You will get no argument from me on that score. So now tell me what we're going to DO, really DO about it. How do we fix it?

Part of my (personal) discomfort with your writings, DTF, is their sheer bleakness. Is that it, then? Should we lie down and let the machine roll over us? Raging doesn't appear to be a viable option.

What, then?

Guru me. I'm a captive audience.

[DuctapeFatwa]

61. You have to choose

Politics is not the same as changing your government, changing your country.

If you want change, that means that you literally want a revolution.

If you don't, don't try to get all up in revolution's peaches, because it will just mess up your political career.

I hate to use this example, because it also involves Dean, but a few weeks ago, Dean said something about the US being even-handed in the Middle East.

Now the policy of both Dem and Repub parties on this issue is identical: unconditional support for Israel, unlimited funding with no strings, and if anyone veers away from this, it's off to Cynthia McKinneyville with them.

Dean got a second chance, though. The money people talked to him and brought him into line, and whooshed him off to Israel to hint to The Forward that bush did not really support sharon enough, but Dean would, oh yes, he and AIPAC were of one mind on the subject.

Now I know that's controversial, and I do not intend to discuss the issue here, I am including it as another political pitfall.

Dean went somewhere he should not have gone.

Politicians have to balance two sides: the public and the political hierarchy. The secret is to make as many segments of the public as possible believe you are on their side, and not on the side of the segments of the public they hate.

This is why so many politicians spout a lot of words and say very little. They have to. That is how the game is played.

In addition to the public, they have to remember who brought them to the dance, and that is the political hierarchy and people with money.

There are some places you don't go, some doors you don't open, or you risk losing party support, and money.

I do not think that Dean wants a revolution. I do not think that he sees himself as a tall blond Hugo Chavez. I just think he illustrates how easy it is to get your foot caught in a political pitfall.

[CWebster]

71. Risks

He takes them though.

Better than the rest.

[lapislzi]

74. I happen to agree with you about Dean

But where does it leave *us*? The people who see the juggernaut barrelling along and can barely hang on?

Mind you, I still think Dean is a better bet than Bush (I am thinking back to your post yesterday on magical thinking). I am not an ostrich, but even a teensy bit better than Bush is something.

No? It's hopeless, then? I lived once in such a society, and I am still not sure that I support the means used to effect change.

At what point does the armed struggle become an acceptable alternative?

[DuctapeFatwa]

77. I would very much prefer that there be no bloodshed, if that is at all

possible.

Every person will have a different answer for when it became acceptable.

It became both imperative and inevitable in the fall of 2000.

[lapislzi]

81. Ah, but is it?

One would have thought in a nation the size of British India, there could have been no revolution without massive bloodshed. Now, I'm not saying that the "liberation" of British India was a true revolution, but under the leadership of Gandhi, political change was effected with minimal loss of life (relatively speaking, that is. It was, after all, India).

The same cannot be said for South Africa (where I lived). I could not support Nelson Mandela because the ANC never renounced the armed struggle, and at the time my political consciousness was such that I believed it should have. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe what happened couldn't have happened without that armed struggle. Again, it is questionable how much real change took place, but the elimination of the apartheid state was a very good first step. However, the cost in human lives was steep, and continues to be.

Personally, I think dynamite will be necessary to blast American people out of their comfort zones...but...I suppose embracing the armed struggle is not a topic for these boards.

[Karenina]

60. These are GREAT POSTS, DF!!!

To even BEGIN to openly discuss the 800 TON elephant suffering from Montezuma's revenge in the living room, the SHEER SCOPE of the problem must be understood. We're talking ingrained, institutionalized, codified into LAW issues and there are NO EASY ANSWERS.

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT POINT:

"The polls are open for only 12 hours on a workday, just for starters."

Hmmm... Now exactly WHO is affected??? Race? Class? Region?

[JNelson6563]

79. I appreciate your taking the time to

explain where you are coming from. While I did take offense at what I perceived your message to be I really prefer dialogue over fuss.

I am well aware that the poor have different concerns than the not-poor. I've been both.

I do think though that getting someone different in the WH is a step in the right direction in addressing this issue. We need to get Team Bush and the divisive reich-wing out of power. They have succeeded in dividing us.

Their rise to power happened over a long period of time. The key element of it has been the ability to find the common ground among many groups. For instance right-to-life and the NRA. It doesn't seem like they'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with joined hands but indeed they are.

We need to do the same. Unite people with our common ground. There are a lot more of us than there are of them and if we join forces we can make progress. I am afraid if we wait for a minority to achieve the status necessary to address this issue on a national level it will never happen. We have to make incremental changes in our society that will enable minorities to reach their potential and the status/notoriety necessary to conduct the national dialogue.

I don't think anyone seriously claims Dean (or any other candidate) can single handedly fix this massive problem. I do think any one of them is capable, in fact obligated, to get the ball rolling. It is the path to the necessary unity IMO.

Julie

[DuctapeFatwa]

83. The Catch-22

You are right, somebody has to. The reason a candidate can't, is because of the structure and system of politics, a candidate is part of the problem, whether he (or she) wants to be or not.

It is the candidates who have the bully pulpit, but if a candidate tries to do it, you are back to, as Karenina so aptly put it, trying to debate the nature of water with a blowfish :)

[JNelson6563]

98. I say we try in spite of the

straight-jacket. :toast:

Julie

[sandnsea]

5. All true and very sad

And if Dean wants to have this discussion, he needs to get busy and have it. If he doesn't want to have it, he needs to shut up and quit pretending he's talking about racism. Because all I've heard him do so far is ignore all of this and suggest the Democratic Party do the same in order to get more votes. That would be the worst thing for all of us.

[maha]

18. He's not talking about racism.

You have utterly misunderstood what he said. He does not want the Democrats to engage in race baiting or pandering, but to reach out to white working class people who vote Republican over social issues. These people are being hurt badly by Republican economic policies, and if they voted with their pocketbooks instead of over wedge issues like school prayer, they'd vote Democrat.

[sandnsea]

24. race baiting & pandering

Right wing propaganda. I reject it. 100%. Always will. If he wants to buy into the right wing propaganda that the Democratic Party are race panderers and leads the party in that direction, I'll reject the Democratic Party as well. 100%.

[dajabr]

6. Dean's Right on Appeal to Southern Whites

November 6, 2003

It's one of the sillier fights the Democratic presidential candidates have gotten into lately. During a debate in Boston Tuesday night, several of them attacked Howard Dean for a remark he made last week.

Recapping his view that Al Gore lost to George W. Bush because he failed to win states in the South, Dean told a newspaper reporter: "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks. We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Al Sharpton promptly lit into him for embracing a symbol of racial segregation. John Edwards accused him of stereotyping white Southerners. But Dean refused to back down, arguing that Democrats aren't going to win big in this country "if we don't have a big tent."

Granted, Dean could have expressed his views to the reporter more tactfully. Whether the Confederate flag should continue to fly over Southern state houses or be banished to Civil War monuments and museums has polarized black and white Southerners in recent years, with Republicans often siding with Southern whites. It's also true, as Edwards pointed out, that not all working class Southerners are good ol' boys. But the substance of what Dean said is true. If Democrats hope to win back the White House and Congress, they need to attract segments of the population that are not voting for them now.

More: http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/ny-vpmcc063527414nov06,0,637150.column?coll=ny-ny-columnists

[CWebster]

8. gotta start somewhere

.

[Karenina]

11. Bingo!

Actually, I can't imagine anything more entertaining than watching the good doctor take his best shot at lancing the festering pustule of racism that oozes so endlessly and prominently over the face of America.

[moz4prez]

19. yes

perhaps he can just YELL it out of existence

[Guaranteed]

10. Quite an eerie ending.

I assume you're referring to the many who fell during the 60's Civil Rights Movement (which some would say remains unfinished).

[DuctapeFatwa]

38. That's a cool idea but I intended it to refer to

the reality of racial and economic polarization as it is today.

[Guaranteed]

70. Wasn't it at least much worse back in the 60's?

They managed to make some progress. Or, do we just not have the courage?

[Karenina]

105. Progress was made then...

which makes the current regression all the more tragic.

[fla nocount]

16. A reminder that I'm living in Jack Kerouc's Orlando and

Claude Pepper's Florida. That is a thoughtful post and one to enjoy and ponder. I love to ponder.

[Karenina]

20. Really DF,

I laughed out loud reading your post. It's quite PITHY! LOVE IT!!!

[DuctapeFatwa]

43. Thanks! I'm glad it made you laugh, I had hoped that it would get

people to thinking about the topic itself, as opposed to focusing so much on Dean, since none of them are the man to have it, if they also want a career in corporate politics, but I guess all the Dean replies kind of prove my point :P

[Karenina]

65. Trying to talk about the effects of race and class

or even corporatism and populism in the U.S. is akin to discussing the nature of water with a blowfish. Let the games begin!!! ;-)

[DuctapeFatwa]

67. LOL that is the best crystallization of it I have heard!

and it appears to be my impossibility du jour ;)

[RetroLounge]

21. Well thanks for your determining this.

Glad to see you *know* who should and should not.

but I don't see anyone else out there beginning the discussion.

[Renew Deal]

30. Dean didn't begin the discussion intentionally.

He was busy pandering for votes and got caught saying something stupid. Don't act like your noble hero Dean had any interest having this "painful discussion." He keeps saying painful. It's "painful" to him and his poll numbers.

[CWebster]

35. Who was he pandering to?

[Renew Deal]

42. Well

He was pandering to southern confederate flag driving pick up drivers. In other words, his view of southerners. He used the flag to try to get votes. I get his point, but I don't think he wanted to "start the (painful) conversation." He just wanted votes from the south (and why shouldn't he).

[blm]

94. He was talking about his NRA support, and NOT race relations.

He switched it to pretend his efforts were about race relations, when they were in FACT, remarks about his longtime support for the NRA and its positions.

Dean did a bait and switch to cover up his mistake and many of you are parroting him.

[MercutioATC]

37. I keep hearing this "pandering" charge. To WHOM is he "pandering"?

:shrug:

[RetroLounge]

93. Bullshit, as usual

He's been saying this since FEBRUARY.

Thanks for your feigned hurt. Hope you can move on with your life.

[Renew Deal]

100. It was pandering then...

It's pandering now. He didn't want to talk about race, just rednecks.

[DuctapeFatwa]

36. Please see reply to Jnelson5653 above

the subject is "I'm someone who thinks he wants to be President"

[MercutioATC]

34. Well, since none of the other candidates are being this inclusive, Dean IS

the man to have this discussion. People who drive pickups displaying the Confererate flag DO exist. They have more in common with southern blacks (and, by extention, all of us) than they have differences with them (and us). They vote. Why would ANY candidate not want to show people who do not traditionally vote for Democrats why they SHOULD?

As far as Sharpton's comment about not bringing the Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood, that's total, unmitigated B.S. Bringing people who already agree together is a good thing, but that's not the issue here. Dean is trying to bring people who see things differently. The only way to do this is to be candid about who the groups are what they believe. One of these groups displays the Confederate flag. To deny this shows either an extreme lack of understanding or a lack of desire to have the dialog at all. Dean wants to show people that our common needs outweigh the ways in which we're different. I think this is a great message.

[incapsulated]

47. The "remark" was never about race

His remark was never about race, it was about getting white southern votes. He has said so himself, repeatedly:

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks", the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday’s Des Moines Register. "We can’t beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Now that he is in trouble, it has morphed into The Big Discussion About Race. Which in a way, demonstrates that he at least begins to understand why his remark was inappropriate to begin with. You simply don't use a divisive symbol like the confederate flag as nothing more than a colorful metaphor while describing a voting block you would like get without mentioning it's racial background. It shows a great lack of political awarness at best and real insensitivity to black Americans at worst.

[CWebster]

50. It is about economic realities related to race and class

This thread is a rather interesting discussion on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=657259&mesg_id=657259

[blm]

91. Exactly. His remark was about his support for the NRA, and NOT about race

like he has SWITCHED it to. DEAN LIED about the reasons for the remark and people are SUPPORTING his lie.

The reporter asked Dean about the NRA support, Dean has switched the story to say it was an effort to discuss race relations.

[curse10]

49. Fabulous fucking post

Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. This gem of a short essay deserves a wider audience than DU.

And your point is well-made. Despite having requested black roommates at Yale, done some volunteer work with Hispanic people, opted to go to a med school attended primarily by Jews, and married a Jewish woman, Howard Dean has much to learn about getting along with other people, particularly people who are different from him.

His intentions may be good but he can't talk WITH people. He doesn't know how to talk WITH others. He can only talk TO people who already agree with him because if anyone talks back, he feels he has to get in their face, as he did with Al Sharpton after the debate.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

63. Your remarks add to the gem of those thoughts as well

excellent discussion here.

[GumboYaYa]

54. Here are Dean's remarks on this issue from yesterday.

We're at a space today that's rich in our nation's history, a place where citizens have gathered for more than a century to debate the great issues of the day. From this platform and from this very podium Abraham Lincoln spoke nearly 150 years ago as a presidential candidate and when Lincoln came here, he did not shy away from talking about the greatest threat that our republic faced at that time which is the terrible institution of human slavery. I will not shy away today either.

The issue of the confederate flag has become an issue in this presidential race. Let me make this clear. I believe that we have one flag in this country, the flag of the United States of America. I believe that the flag of the Confederate States of America is a painful symbol and reminder of racial injustice and slavery, which Lincoln denounced from here over 150 years ago. And I do not condone the use of the flag of the Confederate States of America. I do believe that this country needs to engage in a serious discussion about race, and that everyone must participate in that discussion. I started this discussion in a clumsy way.

This discussion will be painful, and I regret the pain that I may have caused either to African-American or southern white voters in the beginning of this discussion. But we need to have this discussion in an honest open way.

In 1968 the Republican Party embarked on a strategy to divide white people from black people in the south just as they were divided when Abraham Lincoln stood at this podium 150 years ago. That is intolerable. Ending that is what this campaign is all about.

I am determined to find a way to bring white Americans and black Americans--as Dr. King said--to the same table of common brotherhood. As I said, we have started in a difficult way, but there is no way to escape the pain of this discussion. To think that racism was banished from the face of this country--even after the success of the civil rights movement is wrong.

Today in America, you have a better chance of being called back for a job interview if you're white with a criminal record than you do if you're black with a clean record--never having been arrested or convicted. Institutional racism exists in this country not because institutions are run by bigots or racists, but because of our unconscious bias towards hiring people just like ourselves. I am determined we will overcome this. I am also determined that we will not leave anyone behind in this discussion--no matter what their color, no matter where they live.

I understand Senator Edward's concern last night that we not have people from the north telling people from the south how to run their states--but we all need to understand that we are in this together and that it will be a difficult and painful discussion, and feelings will be hurt. And what we must do is that people of good will must stay at the table.

If we are ever to vanquish the scourge of racism left over from 400 hundred years of slavery and Jim Crow, only 40 or 50 years ago the Civil Rights Movement begin to see relief from that. We can't think it is over; we must have the dialogue Bill Clinton promised us; we must continue that dialogue, and we must all be at the table. Many of the people in the African American community have supported what I have said in the past few days, because they understand. Some have not, so I say, to those, I deeply regret the pain I have may caused. Many of our white supporters have understood, but to those who do not, I regret the pain that I have caused. I will tell you, there is no easy way to do this. There will be pain as we discuss it; we must face it together--hand-in-hand, as Dr. King and Abraham Lincoln asked us to do.

Because this is about taking back our country and when white people and brown people and black people vote together in this country, that's when we get social justice in America.

*******

Personally, I agree with every word he said. I find it hard to believe that people are up-in arms about an attempt to bring people together in this country for the common good of everyone. To me that is the role of government. We are polarized and continue to become more polarized by the day. I applaud any efforts to try to identify the causes of this and get beyond it so that the country can succeed as a whole.

[Ripley]

56. Because we can't mention the CF word.

See, there are certain realities and words we are not allowed to use as liberals. Yet Sharpton will get a pass on any damn outrageous thing he says about honkies. Used to like him, but lost respect.

Carol MB "got" what Dean was saying and agreed. Clark "got" what Dean was saying this morning on CNN and basically agreed.

[incapsulated]

57. That's all very noble

But it has nothing to do with what started all this. His CF remarks where an attempt to reach out to white southern voters who are voting for republicans against their own interests. He said so himself.

If he wants to have this "discussion" now, fine. But it was not his original intent, no matter how he spins it.

Frankly, I hope it works for him. He may well be the nominee, and I don't want this around his neck come general election time.

[GumboYaYa]

59. First, it has everything to do with what started this.

If all you hear is "blah bah blah Confederate Flag blah blah blah....," you may think it has nothing to do with what started this. If you actually listen to what Dean has consistently said it is not very different from his statements yesterday.

In February he pointed out that middle-class and poor whites and blacks have more in common than they have differences. Understanding why whites vote against these interests is important. You can never get to the discussion of these issues if you are stuck in the status quo.

Second, even if you don't believe that addressing these issues were the original intent of Dean, he is addressing them now. Please explain how this is a bad thing?

[sistersofmercy]

62. DF what a gift with words you have!

I suppose I'm a pathetic idealist but I do believe some day this ignorant hatred can be removed from our society.

[Hep]

68. Isn't there something new to bash dean about?

The big vote is today. You're still on yesterday's news.

[DuctapeFatwa]

75. I debated whether to answer people who saw it as Dean-bashing

In fact, I had pretty much decided that anyone who said that had not read the post, and it would not even be polite for me to reply.

I changed my mind because so many of the replies seem to focus solely on Dean, who just happened to be in the wrong place in the wrong time, if you want to put it like that.

Dean stepped into a political pitfall, it could have happened to anybody.

The one he stepped in is the one I want to talk about, and the one I think that Dean doesn't really want to talk about, or wouldn't if he knew what he was suggesting, at least not if he wants a career in politics.

This issue is a lot bigger than Dean, a lot bigger than all the candidates of all the parties put together.

[Hep]

82. You still appear to be conflicted on the matter

In fact, I had pretty much decided that anyone who said that had not read the post, and it would not even be polite for me to reply.

Well I read the post, and I think you make a lot of unfair assumptions. Particularly with your embrace of the "man in the truck".

The {political pitfall} he stepped in is the one I want to talk about, and the one I think that Dean doesn't really want to talk about, or wouldn't if he knew what he was suggesting, at least not if he wants a career in politics.

I don't know what you are suggesting. We had a lengthy and productive discussion about this matter in our meetup last night. We made progress, came to a common ground, and moved on. So I disagree with your premise that this was a pitfall at all. We had huge numbers at our meetup, partly because of this. Mostly new faces. If this is a pitfall, I hope he falls into three more.

This issue is a lot bigger than Dean, a lot bigger than all the candidates of all the parties put together.

Exactly what is THIS ISSUE?

And may I point out how offensive it is that you say, "so many of the replies seem to focus solely on Dean", when it was you who made this thread about Dean in the first place? How frigging disingenuous is that?

[DuctapeFatwa]

86. If you don't mind, I'd rather keep this thread on the subject

And to be honest, I am not a good choice for a flame war or insult contest, although I know they are popular.

You will get a much more satisfactory response from someone who shares your interest in all that.

I'm glad that the issue was resolved to your satisfaction at your meetup :)

[Hep]

90. Are you replying to me?

Or did you mean to reply to someone else?

And to be honest, I am not a good choice for a flame war or insult contest, although I know they are popular.

This is no flame war. Maybe you're being a little sensitive? I simply pointed out that I didn't agree with your assumptions, and I wondered aloud why you think this is bigger than Dean, whatever THIS is, while calling him out in your subject line. YOu can get defensive and feel attacked if you want, but you can also answer my inquiries.

[CWebster]

87. To be fair

There is some irony in this discussion- The suggestion being that Dean isn't playing the game of saying nothing and blundering into this territory rather than deliberately focusing on it intentionally.

Well, it may be a little of that but not completely. The Dean campaign is an interesting development in our political life and it may not be all due to Dean, but it also does have something to do with him. And if blundering his way about it is what works then it isn't a political liability.

[Skidmore]

78. No, he just may be the man to push the discussion into the national

dialogue. WE THE PEOPLE need to have the discussion, one to one, every single day of our lives. WE THE PEOPLE have elected to turn a deaf ear to all but what benefits us in our individual lives. WE THE PEOPLE need to understand we all bleed red.

[blm]

107. You need to realize that dean was defending his NRA stance, not

making an effort to discuss race relations.

Race relations is nowhere mentioned in this article about Dean and his longtime support for the NRA.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[HazMat]

88. Great post

Actually, I believe it was MSNBC/Hardball that had the clip of that guy. You are absolutely correct, that clip summed up everything perfectly. What the guy expressed is the heart of this issue. They see it as the White Man versus the "nigger loving Democrats". (All Republicans do, it's just that the sentiment is greater in the South).

The GOP is not responsible for "causing" this guy to feel this way and people like him didn't suddenly start feeling this way in 1968.

Democrats drew a line in the sand during the Civil Rights era: abandon your ignorance or abandon the party. Southern Democrats (who were far to the right of the GOP or anyone) defected and the GOP simply tapped into their racist sentiment. These people largely still feel the same way.

Dean fancies himself as the candidate who "stands up to the right wing", but unfortunately he doesn't mind joining them when it works for him.

White conservative southerners (and anyone else) are welcome in the party -- if they are willing to see our side of the argument. The "confederate vote" defected during the '60s because they didn't agree with the party's liberal direction. There's no point in getting that voter back if we have to abandon our basic principles to do it.

[CWebster]

96. That is a superficial view

Dean is not ignorant of the reality of poor whites. There are enough of them in Vermont and they are just like "rednecks" in the South.

That doesn't mean that you abandon them in their ignorance, but include them in the consideration of the whole. What benefits their standard of living, their labor protection and safety and their assessibility to education and health care for their children impacts on their views about the world around them and their feelings about their own worth.

It is a message of hope even for those written off as hopeless.

[Kanary]

92. the war we can't see

Both sides, armed camps.

One has power, the other...not.

what you don't understand...that's not what he said...state your position....link? proof? x1k

the war goes on.....

Y'know... I grew up in Los Alamos... highest level of I.Q. per capita anywhere in the nation... highest level of Ph.Ds anywhere in the nation.... My neighbor across the street used to say "You meet a physicist on the street and say "Hello" and he's stuck for an answer."

Kinda like here... kinda like Washington, D.C.

I used to think it was *me* who simply couldn't say things right... now I see, it's just that people can't *hear*. So, the repeating goes on, and on, and on....

There are soooo many people waiting to be heard.

Do we have the time yet?

Or do we just want links and position papers?

They're still waiting.

The war goes on.

Kanary

[bread_and_roses]

95. You are so on target

...and this board is no exeption. A poster tried, for instance, to start a conversation about yesterdays Plaid Adder column; it sank like a stone. I live in a small upstate NY "city" considered one of the safest places in the nation. In the last few years, escapees from the third-world conditions in the NYC ghettos have been migrating here. Suddenly, every candidate for local office is a "law and order" candidate, a "lets bring our neighborhoods back" candidate, a "get rid of the drug dealers candidate." We continue to refuse to address or even acknowledge racial injustice and oppression; that it spills over on to poor whites is just an acceptable part of the bargain for the powers that be, I have come to think...nothing like policies that can promote racism and classism in one fell swoop. But even small, safe, white cities are going to feel the repurcussions, eventually (we are still about 90% white here.) What happens then?

[Kanary]

97. would you be saying...

by any chance, that we've... umm, kinda lost our soul?

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

102. LOL for a second on a glance I thought you were saying

"Dean, you are THE MAN, for having this discussion," which I would have agreed with.

[Tinoire]

106. Excellent post! One suggestion though...

Would you greatly mind editing it and making me the author?

I wouldn't change one word!

Pea-green with envy,

your friend

[DuctapeFatwa]

120. WOW, thanks! that is a compliment to keep and pull out on bad days :)

I appreciate all the love, all the peeps who said nice things, I had hoped it would get them to talking about race ...

LOL

[MessiahRp]

109. I had this sent to me in E-Mail

this morning... so I hosted it on my server for you guys to see here. Not very clever but it makes it's point I guess...

[ulysses]

110. perhaps he's not

but who is?

I'm serious. Who is the man or woman to have this discussion? Bill Clinton brought up the same idea not so long ago, and I don't recall anyone telling *him* that he wasn't the right guy.

Dean is not the only man in America who does not even begin to grasp the realtity of how polarized US society is. In fact, he has so much company that no one who knows him has taken him gently by the arm and shaken their head, you don't want to go there, trust me.

Go where, a discussion of white southern backwardness and the Confederacy fetish? a discussion of race and racism in America? Which line of polarization, exactly, are we talking about?

I genuinely see absolutely no difference whatsoever between Dean's statement and any number of statements from Democrats both here on DU and in the wider world concerning the need to recapture at least part of the white southern vote. The differences in the reactions run to the facts that no one calls Al From a racist when he uses the right code words, but everyone has decided to pile on Dean because he didn't.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

111. O.K...So let's assume Dean didn't use the right code words.

Next challenge: "Your opinions of abortion (and possible religious beliefs) are secondary to your economic well being."
Might as well keep hammering away at it. :shrug:

[ulysses]

112. meaning what?

Providing health care benefits and a decent education to working class folks of all races in no way requires that I or anyone else surrender their social beliefs. If you want to talk abortion rights, remind me to tell you some time about the anti-choice protester who had a thing about showing me his 9mm clip when I was escorting at a clinic downtown.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

113. Just indicating an ultimate either/or political choice

that some of these people will have to make.

[ulysses]

114. ok

So they have a choice to make. Actually, I think economics counts for a hell of a lot, especially if anyone with a national stage would ever stand up and make the point that the very same people who claim to represent these folks culturally are fleecing them day in and day out.

[sangha]

118. OK

But while the argument that "economics counts" more than some other issues may work for you, how do you think who think those other issues count more feel when they here "You should vote for me. It's for your own good"?

Also, though it's true that similar statements have been made in a number of places, people like McAuliffe and DUers aren't running for President, and they don't receive the level of media scrutiny a leading contender for the Presidency receives. Don't you think that as a veteran of politics who has had an eye on the Presidency for some length of time, Dean should have realized the importance of how he phrases his arguments? What does it say about Dean if he didn't (and maybe still hasn't) realized this? What does it say if realized it a long time ago, but is still careless with his words anyway?

[dweller]

115. excellant

:kick:

dp

[The Magistrate]

116. You Are, Mr. Fatwa, A Most Engaging Writer

We disagree on a great deal, certainly, but this is an excellent piece, and in most of its points, spot on.

Well done, Sir!

[LeahMira]

123. Who's "the people" here?

It is not often that CNN offers real insight, but they did yesterday, with the little soundbyte from the man in the truck in the street, who said, with matter of fact sincerity, that no, he did not agree with them (the Democrats) because they were "not for the people, but for the minorities."


Poor whites are the majority these days, so why won't they take up common cause with blacks and browns, reds and yellows?

What's off-putting is that poor whites will only stand up for themselves.

[DuctapeFatwa]

124. Yes, that was why I was struck by it

There is definitely a segment and not just poor non-voting whites, either, who do not see non-whites as "people."

A step up from that are those mostly affluent whites (voters) who see non-whites as "they."

[mbali]

126. The people

More than anything, leadership means recognizing that civil rights is not a zero sum game where "we" give something to "them" —whether it's women or minorities or immigrants.

The civil rights movement is not about some "them." It is about "us." All of us. It is about transforming America into a nation so much closer to living out the true meaning of our creed.

John Edwards, January 20, 2003