I'm against abortion,but I am for choice.

[Swede]

I have no right to tell someone else how to live. But abortion is something I cannot agree with. I could never vote for someone who takes away choice.

[Wanet]

1. This is my opinion also

I also feel that abortion is morally wrong, but absolutely wouldn't impose this belief on others who do not agree.

[Scairp]

15. That what the right doesn't get

It's about all of us being able to live our lives as we see fit, and making a medical procedure a political and religious issue is the part that is morally wrong.

[newyawker99]

63. Hi Wanet!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[dobak]

2. I bet 99.9% of the people here agree

Nobody likes abortion. Nobody is pro-abortion.

[Swede]

3. Bush has probably made this a big issue.

One that he can't win.

[Warpy]

8. Abortion is painful,

...messy and expensive. Nobody likes it. However, to esplain why it needs to be kept safe and legal is easy.

You see, this is the most obvious case of self defense. Pregnancy and childbirth are not benign conditions, and both carry tremendous risks to life and health, followed by a financial disaster. This is why they must be made entirely voluntary. It's not up to us to judge anyone who doesn't want to assume these very real risks.

We know from experience that desperate women will do anything to defend themselves from unwanted pregnancy and childbirth. The largest cause of death in young women in antiabortion countries is illegal abortion. It was the same way here before 1974, and some of us are old enough to remember what a holocaust against young women it was.

I'm far too old to consider ever needing one myself. However, my friends and relatives have daughters, and this is why I am prochoice.

[lapislzi]

4. one would think, no strike that...

wingnuts DON'T think...

but if one were to think, they would imagine democrats rising from their beds in the morning, crowing, "let's go kill us some babies!"

The decision to have an abortion is never undertaken cavalierly.

The anti-choice crowd remind me of nothing so much as a pack of crotch-doggies. Get yer goddamn noses out of my crotch, OK?

[lovedems]

5. I really just can't believe this is a political issue

it is personal, medical, spiritual. That fact that this is going to be in the front and center again (now that it is in the courts again) is really disappointing and upsetting to me.

[Renew Deal]

6. That's what Clinton sorta said in 92.

He said that he isn't pro-abortion, he is pro-choice.

[MI Cherie]

7. That's how most logical people think.

When the state is given control over choice — what would stop them from limiting choice the other way if it were convenient for them? It's already been hinted that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children or too many children. Who should decide?

[Kanary]

9. you have just succinctly stated

..the position of Dennis Kucinich.

It says it all.

Kanary

[Selwynn]

10. I do not feel abortion is morally wrong, but that doesn't mean..

I am pro-abortion. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

[weirdmo]

11. just curious

How do people on this thread feel about the death penalty?

[elfwitch]

12. on that one I am torn...

In general I am against it. But sometimes I think that there are some evil bastards that should just be taken off the planet. No sense sucking up public resources for the likes of Manson. So I am really hard-pressed to take an absolute position one way or the other on that one. Maybe if prisons were used for real crimanals and sickos and not used to lock up mostly drug offenders, I might come completely down against it.

[slackmaster]

13. I'm against the DP

My objection to it arises from my belief that the human mind cannot be relied upon as a perfect judge of fact. The possibility of executing an innocent person can never be eliminated, therefore I oppose the death penalty in all cases.

[Beer Snob-50]

16. I am pro-choice

but anti-death penalty. I have a problem with pro-lifers who are pro death penalty. I guess life ends at birth.

[catzies]

54. I have that problem too. They set off my hypocrisy meter.

But like the local assembly candidate said a few weeks back when I asked him how he could call himself pro-life when he's for the death penalty, "It's about innocent life." :eyes:





(usual misspellings)

[GinaMaria]

17. I hear something once that I think sums up

where i am on the death penalty issue

In a democracy, the government does not have the right to execute citizens.

I'm pretty much with everyone here on the choice issue. I can't imagine having one myself, but I don't believe in forcing others to live by what is right for me. I would fight against forced abortions as much as I do against anti-abortion legislation.

[weirdmo]

18. funny logic

But isn't abortion the execution of a country's citizens at an earlier age?

[bicentennial_baby]

20. Nope

You're not a citizen until you're born.

[weirdmo]

23. interesting

I see it is ok to play god in some situatons....

[Selwynn]

37. "God" doesn't decide citizenship AT ALL

So, your quip is meaningless.

[weirdmo]

58. yeah, ok...

He/she doesn't decide citizenship but he/she does decide who lives and dies. Ergo my comment...

[elfwitch]

44. my understanding...

If you want to go with a religious argument on when life begins, Jewish law (as I remember it in class) doesn't consider it to be a person that has rights until it is outside the mother's body. As long as it is in the mother, it doesn't exist as a serparate entitity. Citizenship is confered upon the individual. Based on this (as I understand Jeiwsh law on this topic) it doesn't become a citizen until it is born. But that is just the Jewish law aspect. In any case, I still think that it is up to the individual. Some things are too personal to legislate.

[Uzybone]

21. a 3 month fetus

is not a citizen. Get your facts right.

[weirdmo]

22. my facts?

i was not aware that something living can come from something non-living...my mistake

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[weirdmo]

61. faulty comparison

The cells that I might scratch off my nose do not have the capability of becoming a human infant, a child in the womb does.

[GinaMaria]

24. to some

some don't see it that way. There is no proof of when life begins. Doctors and scientists cannot agree. What we're left with is our gut feeling on the issue. I'm no more willing to live by someone else's gut feeling than I am to force someone to live by mine.

We do agree however, that after someone is born, they are considered a life. It's the before 'born' part that we as a people cannot agree on.

Don't think my logic is funny. I think you disagree with me, which is fine, but it's not my logic.

[libertad]

26. only if you consider a zygote a person.

n/t

[Selwynn]

32. No.

[DemExpat]

46. Not of a citizen's life, but of a human's life......

DemEx

[Swede]

19. I'm against it.

Violence begits violence.

[Demonaut]

49. humans beget humans, or republicans beget Gods

lol, meant to say hypocrites

[Selwynn]

30. Doesn't relate - but..

I am against the death penalty.

However, the only reason there is a abortion/death penalty hypocrisy is when you say you are pro-life on the specific grounds that all life is sacred, and then pro-capital punishment which is the taking away of life.

If you are pro-choice, your reasoning certainly has nothing to do with not believing that life is sacred, or the question of life or ending life at all - it is about the question of choice, and the rights of woman to make medical decisions in private about their own bodies.

Basically being pro-choice is about standing against taking rights away, and being anti-capital punishment is also about standing against taking rights away - no real conflict there.

[theivoryqueen]

34. Hear hear

[weirdmo]

60. again funny logic.....

"If you are pro-choice, your reasoning certainly has nothing to do with not believing that life is sacred, or the question of life or ending life at all - it is about the question of choice, and the rights of woman to make medical decisions in private about their own bodies."

Of course that choice and their own bodies also relates to the life of another person who hangs in the balance by this choice.

"Basically being pro-choice is about standing against taking rights away, and being anti-capital punishment is also about standing against taking rights away - no real conflict there. "

It's nice when you sanitize the argument as such but no actually being pro-choice also entails whehter or not you can stomach the idea of a procedure that ends the life of another human. How does that differe from an execution. At least with the execution we know that they might have done something wrong. An un-born child does not get that opportunity.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. One has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other

The death penalty is society getting revenge for a crime. Abortion, in most instances, is the removal of a zygot, or fetus that cannot survive outside the womb.

When considering these issues that people like to collapse, one must consider ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Therefore, on the issue of the death penalty, the only party that has a contradiction is the party that is against abortion but PRO DEATH penalty since ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, they value a fetus more than a living breathing human being.

Any questions?

[Undemcided]

55. I see no contradiction

One life is innocent and the other is not.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. First of all one is a HUMAN being independent of the womb, the other isn't

Second, a contradiction doesn't require you to see it to be a contradiction. Third, you are being presumptuous on both accounts.

[mrgorth]

57. Very much for it.(nt)

.

[slackmaster]

14. Neutral on morality of abortion, strongly pro-choice

I've managed to avoid being a participant in an unwanted pregnancy.

[cally]

25. Thank you!

I respect your views and insights. Many of us could not have an abortion but support others rights to make their own decisions. I would have had an abortion at a younger age and I would encourage my teens to in some circumstances. (Not as a method of birth control as so many rightists say.) I'm avidly pro-choice but I am not pro abortion. I just don't think the state should make decisions that should be between a woman, her partner, her doctor, and her spiritual beliefs whatever they are.

This latest infringement on a woman's rights just infuriates me. Women will die or face irreparable health damage to carry to term fetuses that will die at birth. I just don't get how that is pro-life.

[theivoryqueen]

36. And what happens to all these unwanted kids???

Will people who are forced to become parents act as responsibly as those who choose to? Or will there just be a lot more dumpster babies?

[cally]

41. Re-read my post

I'm avidly pro choice. I never have, nor never will support anyone telling another human when to have children. My post was about what I would personally do at this time in my life. I would have made different decisions at other times in my life.

[Swede]

42. The people who are against abortion also do not want welfare,

are pro-death penalty. Prochoice and anti capital punishment people agonize over there choice. Anti-abortion,pro capital punishment people have no inner conflicts about their choice.

[theivoryqueen]

48. True Story

But it's important to consider what kind of impact trainloads of unwanted kids will have on our society. Already there are tons more unwanted kids than adoptive parents.
I can see it now: after Bush reams thru Roe v. Wade, shanty towns full of nothing but kids spring up - and after a while form into roving gangs of criminals, committting heinous crimes and inflicting all sorts of destruction on civilized society... wait, that was logans run. Except for the part where the kids get to join society after they gornw up.

[grannylib]

27. I agree.... I always liked Big Dog's statement...

it should be safe, legal and rare.
I have been in a position where I considered it...but we opted for adoption instead...

[Selwynn]

38. Yup! Safe and rare is my talking point too.

[Tracer]

28. I'm Also Against Abortion.

But as has been said many times before, I can't (nor do I want to) control someone else's life.

The pro-choice forces frame the debate as being about a woman's right to control her own body and her right to choose.

But shouldn't the question be asked Ñ Shouldn't a woman take responsibility for preventing pregnancy in the first place? Shouldn't she make responsible choices regarding birth control? Shouldn't she ask her partner to also take responsibility?

I never hear this part of the argument.

Out of the 1.5 million abortions performed in this country each year, I will guess that the majority of them were done because women didn't exercise her right to choose Ñ not to get pregnant.

[cally]

31. Please explain in detail how women can prevent pregnancy

I'm not joking...I want an explanation. Birth control fails, rapes occurs, incest happens. Sometimes we all just make dumb mistakes. If you haven't then so be it, but I would suggest that most of your loved ones could tell you about having sex when they thought it was safe, fooling around with the penis too close to the vagina during foreplay, trying minimal insertion, even joint masturbation and the semen is moved to the vagina. So explain exactly what you mean.

Finally...of course, it's all the woman's fault. Sheesh. Men have equal responsibility

[theivoryqueen]

39. Thank you for saying that. I was just about to reply, myself.

[DemExpat]

40. People can play around and use birth control.....

the pill, IUD, foams, rubbers, etc.
Males have equal responsibility, but a female must know that the baby will be growing in HER body...

I am anti-abortion, pro-choice in the very early stages of pregnancy.
After 12 weeks or so I'm not pro-choice unless the Mom's life is in danger.

DemEx

edit:
Holland used to have an incredibly low teenage mother birth rate - because of excellent education in the schools. And after raising my 2 children here in this culture, I can assure you that young people here are quite free in their sexual experimentation.
Somehow these kids knew how to prevent pregnancy.
Knowing how to prevent it is 'all' you need...except in case of rape.
DemEx

[cally]

43. I know that you can play around and use

birth control. But when do you put on the condom, do you use foan or jelly with the condom, when do you insert the diaphram, did you forget your pill for a few hours, are you sick so the pill isn't working well, and all birth control has failure rates. Sometimes we are all idiots.

[DemExpat]

45. Yeah, I was an idiot too in the 60s and 70s......

I was lucky, and once took a morning after pill.....

But I still want to see abortion as a very rare occurrence in any society that I live in. I view it in the same light as any violence towards life such as war, crime, etc. and feel it de-humanizes society.

DemEx

[catzies]

56. The choice issue also includes that morning after pill you took

"They" want to take that away too.

[DemExpat]

62. Then contraception, morning after pills, education etc. are

what I think Dems should be fighting 'tooth and nail' for....

DemEx

[theivoryqueen]

51. The Right wishes to curtail both abortion and use of contraceptives.

[redqueen]

52. Yes, of course.

It's a good way to build a serfdom.

[OKNancy]

66. Damnit I hate to bring up my personal life to make a point

but sometimes people are so myopic. I had an abortion at age 45!! I was no kid and certainly not someone irresponsible. Sometimes birth control fails. I'm glad I had a choice, and I'm happy I got the abortion. I have no regrets, and no guilt. I never think about it until some dumbass on DU makes judgments about abortion

[MODemocrat]

71. OKN, I'm also glad you had a choice

If people don't like abortions, then they shouldn't have one, but I'll say this: If my daughter or any of my loved ones would be putting their health in danger to carry a baby, I'd want them to have that option. This is a personal judgment, and no one else's business.:eyes: :*

[noiretextatique]

69. takes two to tango...shouldn't men be held responsible as well?

difference is...you all don't get pregnant.

[Redleg]

29. That pretty much sums my beliefs on abortion.

My two cents worth.

[Demonaut]

47. Curious

how many of you folks have had an abortion, or been involved with decision. I know this is a sensitive question and i opologise for it in advance, but if we are all about choice this question should not be taboo

[theivoryqueen]

50. I think it's kinda like AA

totally private, don't ask - don't tell. I have worked in the medical field and it would amaze you how high a percentage of women have had abortions, but would never tell their freinds or family. It is also hard for them to confide in their own doctors... unless it is absolutely necessary, as in the case of cancer treatments.

[Demonaut]

53. Difficult Subject I know

But in response to the AA analogy, One of the twelve steps is to admit ones past mistakes and please dont think I assume these abortions are mistakes but we know the reason its off limits is due to the fact that no one is ever comfortable with the thought. That inherently the decision to abort is wrong. BTY I am pro choice, and I'm male and I dont think men should make the decision concerning womens bodies.And to let you know, I understand the (as much as a man is able)the after affects of this decision process as it has involved me.

[ComerPerro]

64. Thank you

That is how I am. And the fucking reich wing needs to realize that liberals don't love the idea of abortion. Just because we are pro-choice doesn't make us pro-abortion.

But they demonize us. They tell their supporters that we actively pursue pregnancies just so we can go get abortions.

[Amaya]

65. I believe the same way.

I don't think it's right. But I don't believe in the government telling women what to do with their bodies. That's just wrong.

Abortion is a painful thing for any woman to go through. And it does leave repercussions.

Just my opinion though..

[quaker bill]

67. I agree

Abortions should be rare, and late term ones rarer yet. However, I think we should work toward this by eliminating the conditions that put women in the place where this difficult choice must be made.

Being male, I am fortunate in that the government does not seek to obtain discretionary jurisdiction over my reproductive organs.

This is a matter best addressed by a social policy that actually values the lives of the child and mother. It is not a matter for criminal law.

[youngred]

68. I do not like the idea of abortion

I think it is not necessarily wrong, but it bothers me that a potential life (even one that would most likely be poor) be stopped

HOWEVER

I WILL NEVER SUPPORT ANYONE SEEKING TO REMOVE THE RIGHT TO CHOICE. As a male I have no right now, nor will I ever to tell someone else how to live their lives, or what to do with it. In the unfortunate case that (insert diety forbid) I got someone pregnant, I would be supportive of her decision either way, because it is NOT my decision.

No one "likes" abortion, no one goes out and chooses to have one because its fun. It's a very tough decision for many to make and one I do not envy.

I think better sex education and cultural attitudes towards sex in this country would keep abortion to a minimum (why do you think Europe has the same rates of sexual activity but 1/2 the pregnancies and 1/4 the STD rates). But NEVER touch the right to choose

[noiretextatique]

70. i'm pro-choice, and pro-abortion

if a woman chooses to have one. otherwise...it's none of my businesss, unless i choose to have one.

[Zen0]

72. pro neither

I find it hard to be on one side of this issue; it's way too hot.

I'm so moderate on this it's not even funny.