Why My Support Will Not Waver From Dean

[slinkerwink]

I've seen several former Dean supporters change their support to Wesley Clark based on only one thing: Clark's military image. I have to warn you that can turn out to be misleading. Don't get me wrong, Clark's a fine man, but he won't galvanize the Democratic base like Dean is doing now, and he's not getting the AFSCME and the SEIU union endorsements which will help Dean win Iowa and New Hampshire.

Clark has very little organization in New Hampshire and Dean just opened up an office in South Carolina. We have plenty of Dean supporters there-----Dean will mostly likely place second or third in the primary there. It could very well diminish Clark's winning South Carolina. It'll reduce Clark to winning only a handful of primary states whereas Dean, on the momentum of winning Iowa and New Hampshire, will win primary after primary based on that momentum.

To those of you who argue that Clark's pulling out of Iowa doesn't matter. It does. The leader of the AFSCME was pissed when Clark pulled out of Iowa because most of the organization's members are in Iowa. That's why they're heavily considering and might do a double endorsement with Dean next week. If Clark had not pulled out of Iowa, he would have gotten that AFSCME endorsement.

Even though Dean's making overtures to Southerners, he doesn't need to win the South. Therefore those who say that Clark can win the South is ignoring the fact that Dean can win all the Gore states plus Florida. That is enough to get us into the White House.

Trust me, it is bad timing to be throwing your support to Clark because with the double endorsement of the AFSCME and the SEIU for Dean next week, it's going to greatly diminish the other candidates' momentum, including that of Clark. Gephardt will be greatly wounded by the double endorsements.

I support Dean wholeheartedly because he's doing all of the right organizational things that will actually help us take back the White House. I don't want to hear any whining about the Confederate Flag because that's a moot issue now. Edwards, a Southerner, just supported Dean's apology on the Planned Parenthood Forum. This helps insulate Dean from further attacks on the CF flag. Therefore, this issue is dead.

There's still time for the recent Clark converts to come back on the Dean train to the White House when Dean wins the nomination. We'll need every single one of your support, even the Dean-bashers on here. If you truly care about getting Bush out of the White House, just vote for Dean if he gets the nomination......that's my two cents for now.

[slinkerwink]

1. :kick:

:kick:

[ComerPerro]

6. If you are going to kick your own post, at least wait ten minutes

Hell, it took me one minute to see your post in the thread, and another to read it.


Plus, the way things move after midnight, your post, unkicked, would stay on page one for at least half an hour.


Now: to respond.

I had been giving the majority of my support to Dean (although I support anyone we nominate). I really like Clark, Edwards, Kerry, and Kucinich.
But I think your idea that people are switching to Clark because of the military image is a bit incorret. I actually resisted Clark because of the military image. But I have seen him speak several times, and I have become convinced that he could be a very good president, and wipe the floor with Bush. Of course, Dean and the others could do this as well. But I think Clark has a very good chance of winning.
As far as the differences between Dean and Clark go: well, there aren't many. When compared to all the other candidates out there, a lot of similarities can be found between Dean and Clark.
That is actually part of the reason that I think a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket would be very solid.

[slinkerwink]

8. well....

I don't think my view that a lot of people are switching to Clark because of the four stars is incorrect. It's a huge part of it----on Clark's website, the militaristic theme is everywhere. It's rather off-putting to me.

[ComerPerro]

9. That is true

Although, that was my experience, as well as that of some others I have talked to.

But, I think you are right that many people may have switched because they think we need a General.


Ironic, isn't it? In a time where we have an unelected, AWOL-going drunken moron in the White House starting wars all over the place with not plan or end, why on earth would "only a general" be good enough to beat him???

[slinkerwink]

11. AND the polls show....

that an unnamed Democratic candidate can beat Bush easily right now.....so why all the hyperbole that Clark is the only one who can do it? Dean can also do it----and I remember a few polls that show Dean beating Bush.

[incapsulated]

10. The main reason people are switching to Clark..

in my experience is this: They believe he has the best chance in the general election against Bush. For many reasons, aside from the military background. They are nervous about Dean's broadbase appeal against Bush. And in the south. That doesn't mean that Dean can't beat Bush, just that they feel the odd's are better with Clark and they agree with his platform.

And from what I read here on DU, by gosh, people are just starting to like the man.

But, hey, stand by your man! No problem with that from me!

I'm for Clark first and any Democrat after.

[slinkerwink]

12. yes, but that's really unfounded speculation about

Clark having the best chance to beat Bush......after all, Clark could get easily attacked if even not more so as Dean if he gets the nomination. My feeling that people switching to Clark is because of the "four stars" allure, but they might be in for a surprise. So far, Clark's been taking the high road, which insulates him from any attacks. He needs to be attacked hard by the other Dems or else he won't rise to a front-runner status. He won't be able to deal with all the flack that Rove is planning to throw at him. That's my main concern with Clark is that he's too much of a political newbie.

Dean has faced worse stuff than the CF issue, and was reelected to a fifth term after he signed the civil unions bill. Dean went through the nastiest mud-slinging in that election, and still got elected. That shows me that he's got the skills to survive a Rove attack.

But, polls right now show ANY Dem candidate being able to beat Bush, so therefore, it's too early to write off Dean.

[incapsulated]

18. I'm certainly not writing off Dean

I just think that some people are choosing Clark based on their opinions on the general election. Dean can beat Bush, no question. I just think Clark has a definate edge.

I'm sure when the primaries start that Clark will start to get the mud slung. We will see if he can handle it, my bet is he will do just fine. My fear about Dean is the amount of material Rove and company have stockpiled against him. The same reasons Clark has so much criticism toward him from the Democratic base is what will prove to be his defense against Rove. What are they going to say, he's said nice things about Republicans, even voted for them in the past? The general electorate will actually like that, they don't like partisans much. His short run will give them less to work with, as well.

[slinkerwink]

19. are they going to attack Dean's stance on guns when he has an A from NRA?

And Dean's stand on civil unions is the same as Dick Cheney's----on leaving it up to the states. Dean can easily deflect the civil unions charge by saying, "I agree with what Dick Cheney said in 2000, that civil unions should be left up to the states"

Also, Clark....I keep remembering how defensive he was in the second debate. I cringed when I heard him talk, but he's recovered in the Planned Parenthood debate. To a lot of voters in New Hampshire, Clark still hasn't stood out to them, and with every increase of Dean in the New Hampshire polls, the undecided pool is shrinking.

[incapsulated]

21. He get's better by the day

I thought he was very good in the last debate. He is extremely intelligent and is good with a crowd. I find him charming, myself.

New Hampshire is a write-off, to me. Dean has been working that state long and hard. It's not the end and be all to me, despite it's hype. Clinton lost it and survived.

Clark will rock in the south and among black and latino voters. He is leading in SC, now.

Dean's NRA backing will work well for him, especially in the south, he is untouchable on that. I don't think that anyone associates civil unions with Republicans, though, despite what Cheney said. It will hurt him in the south, even in the primaries. Even though I was very put off by his "tough on crime" anti-defendant actions in Vermont, if he get's the nod, that will work for him in the general.

[slinkerwink]

24. the hype is precisely why Dean will get a lot of momentum

if he wins both Iowa and New Hampshire, and then places a close place behind Clark or Edwards.......that's why it's the be-all and the end-all here.

[slinkerwink]

72. that's why most candidates will

vanish in the media onslaught when Dean wins primary after primary....

[eileen_d]

13. Another thing to consider about the military angle

The main discomfort that I have with Dean is that he has no experience with foreign policy, and the U.S. is now in a foreign policy nightmare. I don't see Dean getting us out of it. I can see Kerry or Clark getting us out of it, and that's why they're my first two choices. But most Dean supporters have their panties in a bunch about Kerry's IWR vote, so it's more likely that they would switch to Clark from Dean if they were concerned about Dean's inexperience in that area. And admittedly, Clark has got something in the charisma department that Kerry doesn't seem to have.

Just a pet theory of mine, YMMV.

[slinkerwink]

14. Clinton had no foreign policy experience when he ran for President

so why does having foreign policy experience have to be the be-all and the end-all when Clinton, with the same inexperience, got elected?

I have the feeling that anybody other than Bush that gets elected to the White House will have the entire world greet him with open arms because they'll be happy to have Bush out.

The global community would cooperate with any Dem candidate, including Dean. Dean has a cogent plan to deal with the Iraq situation and I agree with his plan wholeheartedly.

It's ridiculous to assume that Dean would screw up Iraq any further when as President, he would actually get the help of the international community, unlike what they're giving Bush now. The reason we're doing badly in Iraq is because the global community is telling Bush that he made his bed and has to lie in it. It's his fault we're in there. If Dean was to be elected, he'd have a REALLY easy time getting international support.

[eileen_d]

16. Re: Clinton -- That was Then, This is Now

Clinton wasn't up against PNAC so I don't admit that comparison.

And I agree that it is ridiculous to assume that Dean would screw up Iraq any further -- because I said no such thing. I feel Kerry and Clark are more qualified to handle the situation. So it's not about hating Dean; it's about preferring Kerry and Clark.

I also don't think foreign policy experience is the be-all and end-all for a presidential candidate, but sadly I do believe it is the #1 issue the U.S. is facing at this point. The economy and other domestic issues are f**ked until we get out of this war. That's just how I see it.

Going to bed now, but rest assured I will promote the heck out of Dean if he is nominated. He's just not my first choice.

(I actually edited OUT some swearing - unbelievable, LOL)

[slinkerwink]

17. Clark is a part of the PNAC

My main issue is that Bush HAS NO foreign policy experience and it's painfully evident. Any Democrat candidate can beat Bush on this by bringing up the failure of signing the Kyoto Treaty, his maligning Western Europe, and his unilateral war in Iraq. I'm just upset that former Dean supporters are ignoring the points I made here and threw their support to Clark very easily based on those false images of what the perfect Democratic candidate should be. There is NO perfect Democrat candidate....

[Vespasian]

22. You're making an assumption

that Clark's military image is the only reason people are supporting him. That's false. If that was all they were looking for, why did they not support him as soon as he entered the race? Furthermore, it certainly isn't clear at this point who can and cannot galvanize the base of the party. You're just assuming Dean is the only one who can - I'd argue that whoever gets the nomination can, and will. I hardly think it's necessary for you to "warn" former Dean supporters against switching - surely they'll support whoever the nominee is, don't you think? I know I will.

If Clark is PNAC, please explain the quote in my signature. Explain why he echoed Eisenhower's concerns about the military-industrial complex. The way I see it, people are switching to Clark because lately he's been tougher on Bush than any of the other candidates. He's been the only one, so far as I know, to say that Bush dropped the ball in regard to 9/11 - and nearly go as far as to suggest LIHOP. Any other candidate would be painted as insane for saying such a thing. His military background is important solely because it lends a great deal of credence to his criticism of Bush and his execution of the War on Terror.

To me, it isn't a matter of Clark being the only one who can beat Bush. It's a matter of who's the best choice to thoroughly trounce Bush, and then be a damned fine president afterwards. I think either Dean or Clark could do this - I just have more faith in Clark, personally.

Your comments about Clark being PNAC and his only appeal being his military background don't give me much hope in this regard, but maybe you'd see more of Clark's appeal you tried to be more open-minded. Just because he spent his life in the military doesn't mean his words are hollow. The fact that he was never a governor or congressman is no indication that he doesn't mean what he says.

[slinkerwink]

23. I still can't forget the video of Clark

praising the Republicans at that fundraiser and saying that he was glad to have colleagues like Powell, etc. in the Bush administration. That seriously bothered me. Do you know how easily the Rove machine can use this video to their benefit?

They'll say, "OH, he's praising us Republicans, but then why the hell is he talking smack about us? Oh, Clark's an opportunist! He'll say and do anything to get elected"

That is why I personally can't see Clark surviving the general election....

[SahaleArm]

25. That doesn't make him PNAC

PNAC != Talking at a Republican Event. PNAC is about war profiteering and ensuring dominance by propping up banana republics.

This is PNAC:
http://www.newamericancentury.org


This is POAC:
http://www.oldamericancentury.org

[slinkerwink]

30. Clark partially profiteered from 9/11 by being on the Axicom board

in which he helped his company collect that giant list of names..... at least to Clark's credit, he stepped down from that board.

[SahaleArm]

32. That's a huge unsubstantiated leap...

Can you prove that Clark was involved in that transaction or are you working with faith-based intelligence? It's certainly nothing to do with PNAC, you're original assertion.

[slinkerwink]

63. it's been mentioned in news reports of Clark being on the board of Axicom

[blm]

77. Dean advisor, Toby Moffett, lobbies for companies profiteering in Iraq

and that doesn't seem to bother you. In fact, Moffett works with Bob Livingston (R-pervert) in his lobbying gig. Moffett was also a VP at Monsanto. Nothing bothers you about that, yet Clark has had associations that cause you to distrust him?

Dean's camppaign is FULL of Washington insiders, but, the genius of his campaign is that they keep their supporters distracted from that truth. They pretend THEY make the decisions.

heheh... just like Oral Roberts.

[Vespasian]

28. Fair enough.

You make a good point. I've heard him address the video, and I think to some degree it could be used to his advantage in terms of cross-party appeal. It does have a negative effect on something you mentioned in your earlier posts - galvanizing the base. Some hardcore democrats like yourself won't find it easy to forgive a new democrat for praising republicans, and I can understand that. But, if Clark gets the nomination, can you imagine any democrats switching their vote to Bush because of those comments? At worst, they may vote green - which, while it certainly doesn't help us, doesn't exactly have a detrimental impact on our chances of winning in my opinion.

He was asked on a recent NPR interview about accusations of opportunism as well. I think he can make a good case that he feels his foreign policy experience and strong national defense appeal could serve the country well at a time like this. And, after all, he's been in public service all his life, and this is essentially the highest calling of public service. Besides, one has to be very ambitious to run for POTUS, wouldn't you think? I wouldn't exactly equate it with opportunism, though.

So, basically, I think he could defend himself better than he has on the Republican speech issue, but I don't think republicans could effectively use it to their advantage to the extent of drowning out the strong message he's trying to spread about the failures of the Bush administration.

While I think Clark has the best message on national defense and foreign policy, Dean has the strongest economic message IMO. Both of them would be damned hard to beat come 2004. I'd say we're in good shape, whoever gets the nod.

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. I switched from Dean to Clark

my decision for doing so, had nothing to do with Clark's military background. Frankly I could not care less about that, though I have to wonder why it seems to be such a bad thing to some here? Because he was a career soldier, some think he will run around starting wars? Well Commander AWOL Bunnypants seems to be doing a pretty good job of that and messing it up badly.


I genuinely like Clark and I find him to be a sincere, caring man who wants to serve the American people, not the other way around. You know, like how the Idiot Boy King believes it should be.

Edited: typos :argh:

[slinkerwink]

69. so you switched because Clark seemed like a nice man?

We really can't afford "nice men" in this presidential election. So far, Clark's taking the high road and that's going to hurt him if he doesn't involve himself in the fray. He won't learn how to counter Bush attacks.

[slinkerwink]

70. that is precisely why

Clark's being a political neophyte will end up hurting him more than you know if he gets nominated. He'll get Gored every way....

[CWebster]

47. Me too

And it bothers me tremendously when Clark is out on the stump encouraging young people to join the service. Recruiting is in the high schools now, and it is focused in the poorest regions where the young have the least prospects. Being in an affluent area, I was stunned when I saw recruiting TV advertisements in a different region of the country, including a shot of a young soldier loading a missle with "bring It On" scrawled on it. One Mother told me that her son is in Bagdad and the recruiter calls constantly to target their daughter, with glowing promises and threats that if she doesn't sign up by a certain date she will lose perks.

Clark is sitting pretty, but he is a sitting duck. When he first came under fire in the debate, everyone saw how he faltered under pressure and his numbers started to slide.

[slinkerwink]

15. heh, sorry

got a little bit too eager :-)

[cavebat2000]

2. yup

Nuff Said

[slinkerwink]

3. yup!

BTW, welcome to DU!

[slinkerwink]

4. :kick:

:kick:

[Frangible]

5. Dean all the way!

But even if your candidate doesn't make it, *PLEASE* show up and vote for anyone but Bush.

[slinkerwink]

7. I plan to do it, but I'm determined and working to get Dean the nomination

and that's why I am doing this with the intent of voting for Dean, but on the unlikely chance he won't get the nomination (even with the two MAJOR unions falling in line behind Dean with the fundraising prowess and the power of his supporters), I will vote for the Dem nominee.....

[slinkerwink]

20. :kick:

:kick:

[TheWebHead]

26. you'll like the zogby poll

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=755

Former Vermont Governor Dr. Howard Dean has expanded his lead over the field of Democratic presidential hopefuls, moving away from a late September tie with retired General Wesley Clark. Dean now receives 15% from 558 likely Democratic primary voters nationwide, and Clark has slipped slightly to 10%.

[slinkerwink]

27. I heard about that poll.....

All the polls so far show Dean leading away from the pack, so how come there's that silly "Dean is unelectable" meme on here? I say that some people have their heads stuck in the sand here....

[DrFunkenstein]

34. Because Bush Hasn't Fired A Single Shot Yet

Dean is BY FAR the easiest target for Bush. You may think his anger plays well, but let me tell you that they will paint him as a radical inside of a weekend. Don't believe me? Imagine several months of these commercials playing:

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

Are you telling me that Dean hasn't given them plenty of ammunition? Please.

[caledesi]

37. And you don't think * has given Dean plenty of ammunition?

Please.

[Guaranteed]

44. But who's been taking the most flak from the other candidates?

Dean.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

76. Kerry fans know whose heads are in the sand

and whose are not. Now, may I reach down and help give you a lift?

[DrFunkenstein]

29. As A Kerry Man, I'll Take Clark Over Dean Any Day Of The Week

We need someone that has some chance of beating Bush. Dean has none. He would humiliate the Party, and ruin one of the best opportunities to turn the Party to the left for once.

I think Clark is a little thin on domestic experience - not that Bush is strong - but I would be proud to get behind him if the time came. I'd vote for Dean if I had to. That's about all I can say.

[slinkerwink]

31. There are polls that show Dean beating Bush.....

I don't get where your logic comes from. How will he humiliate the party? So far he's been revitalizing the Democrat Party and helping the base get the control for once instead of the special interests that the DLC feeds onto.

[DrFunkenstein]

33. Dean Has Always Done Worst Head To Head - And Kerry Does Best

And he just did so again:

Bush Vs. Opponent

Kerry: 50-44
Gephardt: 51-42
Clark: 51-40
Lieberman: 53-40
Dean: 54-39

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/poll_103103.html

<>

[Zynx]

42. That's not always true.

Dean in the Newsweek poll a while back did the best, in the Marist poll he was one point behind Kerry, Quinnipiac had him within the same margin as Kerry, and I could go on. This poll is an outlier.

[Hep]

45. Because

policy and platform should never be a consideration!

[PVnRT]

52. "Dean can't win"

You realize you are basing this conclusion on polls taken a full YEAR before the presidential election, right? Not that it matters to the ABD people, I thought I would just point that out.

[sandnsea]

36. He is pure DLC, he is NOT a Democrat

How can anybody think this little twit is a Democrat after he just pissed all over campaign finance today? Who the hell do you think is going to pour money into his campaign except for special interests??? I swear to god, get your heads out of your asses!!!! This man isn't in line with any traditional Democratic values. The only thing he could begin to be called Democratic on is the war and that's nothing that's going to win an election anyway and he had to lie to even pretend he was anti-war. Anti-war, gay unions and pro-choice. Those are his Democratic credentials. That's it, that's all.

I will be absolutely horrified if this man is the candidate. I really will.

[Zynx]

48. You really need to calm down.

[slinkerwink]

62. I agree with you....

[RetroLounge]

50. Then prepare to be horrified.

and deal with it.

[Hep]

51. BREATHE!

How can anybody think this little twit is a Democrat after he just pissed all over campaign finance today? Who the hell do you think is going to pour money into his campaign except for special interests???

Call me a special interest.

He's raised over 30 million already and very little of it has come from special interests. If your assertion is that this will happen, your reply to me should contain sources and clear cut information backing the assertion up.

I will be absolutely horrified if this man is the candidate. I really will.

I will laugh at you. Will you take a picture of yourself shivering in a corner drenched in cold sweat?

[PVnRT]

53. Pure DLC?

Then why, exactly, is the DLC releasing memos trashing him and denouncing him? Maybe you would like to explain that dichotomy to us, hmmmmmmm?

[slinkerwink]

57. uh......

Dean still supports campaign finance reform, but Bush has made it impossible for any Democrat to stick to campaign finance reform because Bush opted out of campaign finance reform. We wouldn't be having this question about opting out of campaign finance reform if Bush had not opted out.

Besides, all the other Democrat candidates are pro gay unions and pro-choice. Oh, I forgot to mention that Dean was elected FIVE times.......hence the question of electability is moot.

[slinkerwink]

66. uh...Dean is not DLC

because the DLC just attacked him and called his supports a bunch of liberals living in the golden ghetto....

[slinkerwink]

71. :big kick:

:kick:

[Lexingtonian]

35. Ok

I told myself I wouldn't go out and get upset with Dean supporters tonight. Unfortunately, Dean supporters don't act according to my schedule. (Really, I should use my superhero powers more often. But all that Kryptonite everywhere these days. Sigh.)

For one thing, slinkerwink, your posts in this thread are a perfect illustration of what used to be called Coueism. Autosuggestion is the label of the phenomenon, Coueism the method of applying to oneself. (Yes, there's an accent ague that belongs over the 'e', but I'm too lazy to figure out how to find French pronounciation marks.)

If you are going to insist on appeals to emotion over assessments of reality, I have to admit that seeing the Dean ads every night during the evening news around here tells me to vote against the man. He's a man who has seen the Dark Side, and the Dark Side has seen him and is looking out at you through him.

The first major critique I made against Dean on DU is one I find myself reminded of every evening now. Basically, it's that Dean is preaching and his supporters are following an ideology/theology that is roughly a variety of Gnosticism. It gives the adherent a feeling of power and a black/white view of the world, a pretense of control over things s/he actually can't control and a trivial kind of moralism.

For Democrats that ideological stance is a part of the disease rather than any kind of cure. Republicans, who already are Gnostics of a sort, are confident of beating it because they know the Dark side of it- on which they already are- can, in a one-time contest, beat the Light side of it that Dean represents. That is why Rove is confident of beating Dean and prefers him.

So it is my considered view that Dean will fail. If you look around, the wiser people in and supporters of the Party are keeping their distance from the Dean campaign. You can pretend to explain it away. What you cannot explain away is that in polling vs Bush- the polling that ought to matter most to the anti-Bush rationale- Dean consistently comes out worse than Kerry or Clark. When it becomes clear to Democrats in general that Bush's reelection chances are abyssmal, and polling projections put that point around New Year's Day, you will see people leaving Dean in droves for the candidate(s) who can be trusted to carry out the Democratic, rather than a merely anti-Republican, agenda.

[slinkerwink]

59. but by then, Dean will be the nominee.....

And what you're saying is unsubstantiated. I think we're suffering worse damage from having the Democrat party attack each other, than by having Dean as the front-runner. No one wants to buck the status quo except for Dean.......that's why he's being attacked on all sides. I don't think that Clark can survive being attacked viciously like Dean has.

[xultar]

38. When you say it has to do with the 4 stars you're incorrect and

you haven't been reading their posts and understand what they are saying. Clark's team has been great as of late. His rapid responses are clear and on the mark. Now that his message is getting out people are seeing what I've seen all along.

Clark is the next President of the USA.

I'm glad you will continue to support Dean. Just remember if he doesn't get the nomination you must support the candidate that does.
We all will. The focus is on removing the republican from the executive branch.

[Justice]

39. Why Comments Like This Won't Cause People to Switch To Dean

I've got no problem with your unwavering support of Dean, but you don't give anybody any reasons to switch to Dean.

Not effective at all. In fact, all you do is try say sort of negative things about Clark, but nothing substantive. People are supporting Clark because of his ideas - military and otherwise. Don't tell us why we support Clark - we know why we do - tell us why you support Dean.

I also have to say that while it is great to get endorsements from unions - I am all for unions - that is not the be-all and end-all. I've seen union management do great things, and I've seen union management do really bad things to union members.

[ALago1]

40. I'm a Dean supporter as well

My support is considerably thinner than yours as I do like Clark a lot. My hope that Dean gets the nomination is prefaced by a clause stating that Clark is definitely his running mate.

I feel that if Dean is the nominee for president, pretty much the only way I see him doing well in the general election is if Clark is on the second half of the ticket. I really hope that he doesn't pick Graham (although I admire the guy greatly)

[deutsey]

41. I support Dean too

For me, voting for Dean will be the first time I've enthusiastically voted FOR a candidate rather than against one. Even with Clinton, whom I voted for twice, I had many reservations about him in '92 and practically held my nose to vote for him in '96.

[CWebster]

43. The DLC man

Another thing that I find objectionable about Clark is that he has the DLC machine behind them. Dean has the people.

The choice is yours.

[Guaranteed]

46. I'm with ya but my reasoning is different.

I think we need a huge change in our political system. The politicians we have in there are all Saudi whores, and we need to get rid of them if we're going to protect our country. Dean is an outsider, Clark isn't.

[dutihampi]

49. I could care less about his stars

Howard Dean, to me has a great platform. Unfortunately his temper, in my opinion, is what will lose it for him in the general election. Yes he has bee attacked and has more experience, but he doesn't take the attacks well. Tuesdays debate was a prime example. The way he handled the attacks was sad. And Carl Rove will have a feild day with this. Can you imagine * challenging Dean on racism (which makes me mad to even think about), how would Dean handle it?

On the other hand, the reason I like clark is the passion that he shows when talking about the future of this country and how we could change it. If you've ever seen him in a townhall setting there is no way you can come away without knowing just how great a person Clark really is. I also will support whoever is nominated, but I think it is in the best interest of not only the party but our country...

[slinkerwink]

56. That is ridiculous

In my opinion, Dean handled the attacks extremely well, given the very tense subject they were attacking him on. I was quite surprised that Dean hadn't blown up or freaked out. He kept his cool, but yes, he was slightly rattled. He did not let his temper get him in that debate----I don't know what sort of debate you were thinking of.....

[Beaker]

54. The more I see of Dean, the less I like him.

With Clark, it's just the opposite- The more I sees & hears, the more i likes(sic).

It's as though Dean keeps getting more and more full of himself as his campaign goes along. When a candidate starts to presume a sense of 'entitlement' to the nomination, especially when the first primary is still months away- it really puts me off.

As for Clark's military background- In some respects, it does bother me...BUT- his tenure as supreme commander of NATO gives him some very impressive 'foriegn policy' experience- where Dean's seems pretty much limited to some normal border-state issues with Canada.

I supported Dean early on- but I never felt completely comfortable with him, it's something I can't completely define...just a strange 'vibe', I guess.
I honestly have STRONG doubts about Dean's ability to beat Bush, but I have even stronger doubts about Kerry.

Clark/Dean? Clark/Edwards? Clark/Graham? Clark/Richardson? Hard to say at this point, and there's a long row to hoe before we get there, but Clark is my guy.

[CWebster]

55. Should they go after Clark

will he have that same "deer caught in the headlights" response? He keeps out of the frey because he doesn't want it directed at him. If he is the frontrunner there will be no avoiding it.

[neuvocat]

58. With regards to the south:

regardless of who gets the nod, it cannot be done without the support of the south, IMO. With Presidents coming out of Texas (JFK and LBJ, that is), Tenesee and Arkansas, one simply cannot dismiss the south's influence in presidential politics.

Dean would get the nod if the primaries were held today but he can't pull out of the south any more than Clark could have dismissed Iowa-at least not without some heavy repurcussions.

[slinkerwink]

60. uh.........

If Dean gets the Gore states plus Florida, he doesn't need to win every Southern state. The electoral numbers from the Gore states plus Florida is simply enough to put Dean into the White House.

[slinkerwink]

61. :kick

:kick:

[CWebster]

64. The way I see it, as posted on another thread for folks

selling out to the DLC--

Dean has fought for this, taken the heat, taken the grief, forged the way, stood his ground, built his campaign from the bottom, stood by his troops, raised millions in small donations, broken new ground and maintained momentum.

There is NO way I am abandoning that potential for the future for some pretty packaged candidate with poll-tested positions and DLC policy backers and funding.

You can fucking forget it.

[slinkerwink]

65. same here also!!!

There's no way I'm going to abandon Dean so easily. People abandoning Dean this early shows that they really don't have the stomach for dirty politics. Can you imagine how they'd feel when Bush starts trashing their candidate pretty hard?

[slinkerwink]

67. :kick:

[slinkerwink]

73. :kick:

[LoneStarLiberal]

74. I Don't Agree With Everything, But An Excellent Post

I don't necessarily agree with all your arguements about Dean's viability outside of New Hampshire and Iowa, but I definitely like your post as an overall message. It's too bad that more of our candidate support posts couldn't take this form instead of the juvenile incivility that we usually have around these parts.

I'm a Clark supporter that was a drafter from way back and I've never been enthused by Dean nor do I have a good perception of his message, but I respect the structural innovations he has introduced with his campaign, i.e. the use of MeetUp and an easy way to gather money from individuals with internet access through online donations. Excellent!

I do think this whole Confederate flag thing is a non-issue; it was a non-issue from the beginning. Between the spintastic play this has received and the to-be-expected poor martyred white male reaction, what was a non-isse was only elevated to a more prominent non-issue.

[slinkerwink]

75. thanks for the input

[slinkerwink]

78. :kick: