The White Men Speak

[Atman]

Bush Gubmit sez: NO to doctors and women who seek control over their own bodies by way of distasteful medical procedures.

Bush Gumits sez: YES to corporations who want to sell chemical bags, already pulled from the market once for safety reasons, to women to make their tits bigger.



God bless republicans...government out of our lives, unless it involves your privates. How ironic.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

2. Did you see black men standing around Smirk signing the bill?

He is making a factual statement.

I think Fundamentalists are evil, so there.

[webDude]

7. So,...once again we prove that assholes come in all colors?

Yes, some of the people that you mentioned are in the DU and have been called "N-word lovers" and variants of the sort; only to come to a group where they feel they belong, to have you bring up the fact that all the guys in the picture are white? How charitable of you. He is saying more than making a factual statement. I believe it has no place here, it is divisive. Indeed, if there be a freeper alert, it should be of the initial post.

This is just as offensive as if you had inserted the word black instead of white. If you can't see that, I will leave you in peace.

[liberalmuse]

15. Hooey!

It isn't the same thing. White men are HARDLY in danger of being discriminated against in the world today. It is not a racist statement in any way. It is a noteworthy FACT.

[webDude]

24. Not being in danger of being discriminated against does not make this

un-offensive. I put it to you that this is slightly offensive to me and to others reading this, but not wanting to venture into the Briar patch, for fear of being called racist-whitey-whatever. Check my history, then dare to call me that.

I suggest that if you were in a different perspective, you would feel differently.

[Karenina]

51. Hey webDude

A picture is worth a thousand words. Taking the initial poster's observation as though it is a personal attack upon you is an exercise in confusion. If you're still checking in on this thread I would really like to understand why you take such umbrage and express such a defensive reaction. I am interested in your views.

[QC]

53. Perhaps he doesn't like being lumped in with troglodytes?

Just a wild guess.

One problem with the "white male" cliché is that it misses more of the picture than it captures.

I mean, what else do these people in the photo have in common? Well, they're all quite wealthy, for one thing. They are reactionaries. They hold public office thanks to the support of big money. They are beholden to powerful religious fanatics. Etc.

Those things have a lot more to do with their actions than their genitalia and melanin levels.

Another problem, of course, is the one you asked webDude about. Reductive formulas like "white males" lump people like him and me and Morris Dees and Paul Wellstone and Russ Feingold and Ted Kennedy and Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky right in with the knuckledraggers in the picture. That's insulting, and not a real good way to get people's support.

[Karenina]

54. I find your response

VERY INTERESTING and do thank you for it. Can you with the same reasoning out yourself in the shoes of "the other" and take a step or two? I'm being cryptic as I wish to invite you to view the "instant replay" of the train wreck from the corner on which I stood and commiserate.

[QC]

55. What would you like for me to do?

I'm very accomodating, as a general rule, but I don't quite understand your response.

[Karenina]

56. Hmmm...

I really have to think about how to approach this. It would see that webDude does not wish to be personally lumped into the same category as these powerful rich white men who are gloating over their ability to stick their booger-encrusted noses up women's crotches. THAT MUCH I fully understand. What I am trying to understand is how he was so "personally" offended and how he is able to distance himself from the the "lumping together" the "other" has been dealing with FOREVER AND A DAY!

" I suggest that if you were in a different perspective, you would feel differently"

"Those things have a lot more to do with their actions than their genitalia and melanin levels."

THIS IS THE POINT!!! Many deal with this DAILY in the reverse. Genetalia and melanin levels are the determinants rather that ANY RECOGNITION of who they are or their actions. These WHITE MEN have the machine to frame the discourse. There is NO SUCH MEDICAL TERMINOLOGY as "partial birth abortion." NO, women do not undergo such a procedure on a whim. Why is webDude more concerned about how HE is perceived than concerned about the LIVES of the "other" that these WHITE MEN have put in jeopardy???

Geez, there are so many issues here that I hope I've been able to distill one or two for you in a non-combative way.

[QC]

61. The two are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, I would argue that the more one disapproves of what those men did, the more one will object to being considered one of them.

These WHITE MEN have the machine to frame the discourse.

Yes, those white men do. They are the power elite. And while the power elite consists almost entirely of white men, it does not follow that all white men are therefore members of that power elite.

There are plenty of alienated white men in America, because power in this country is not only a matter of race and sex but also other factors like class, access to education, sexuality, region, etc.

I mean, I'm a white guy, but it was a felony for me to have sex until this past June. It's illegal in all 50 states for me to marry, illegal in one or two states for me to adopt a child, and legal in, I believe, 42 states to fire me or refuse to rent to me for no other reason than my sexuality. People like me who are in the military can be summarily fired for the same reason and made to pay back educational benefits they received. Just about every time I turn on the tv or open a newspaper I have to endure ignorant slanders from the likes of Jerry Falwell or the Family Research Council claiming that I eat feces, molest children, and enjoy getting fisted.

So I do have some sense of what it is like to be "the other."

The reason I object to wholesale lumping of vastly different people into categories is that I think it is an obstacle to reaching progressive goals, because it divides the 99% of us in this country who are not members of the elite along lines of race, gender, class, etc. This is not to say that I think we should ignore difference and pretend that racism and sexism (or, for that matter, homophobia)do not exist. It means that I would like to devote at least some attention to the things that can unite all of us different people so that we can take power back from the guys in that picture.

[Karenina]

62. "Wholesale lumping of vastly different people into categories"

is EXACTLY why we were ALL treated to that disgusting photograph.

We need you and webDude to stand up and say NO. The hierarchical FACT is you are the ones who will make the biggest impact. Sure, I could reduce each of those men to a screaming-meemie in a "fair and balanced" debate, but it means NOTHING coming from me. I'd simply be McKinneyed.

However, YOU and webDude, rather than defending yourselves as "Yes I'm black, but NO I DONT CARRY A KNIFE" have an opportunity, a responsibility to yourselves and to those whose freedoms you hold dear to say "THIS IS BULLSHIT AND HERE'S WHY AND AS A MEMBER OF THE "DOMINANT CULTURE" LET ME SAY THIS!"

Am I making any sense here?

[QC]

63. I use my time in the classroom

to push my students to think for themselves, be aware of the injustice in the world, and realize their responsibility to others. You have to walk a fine line as a teacher, of course, so as not to be accused of running an indoctrination camp (which is not what I want to do anyway), but I foreground issues of power and justice in my classes as much as I can.

That's my opportunity to win some hearts and minds, and I gladly take it. It's what's kept me teaching for all these years.

But I have trouble with the notion that I am a member of the power structure in this country. It would be nice, but as someone who is trying to live on about $12k a year and whose basic human rights are still not recognized in this country, I just don't see it.

And, by the way, I am enjoying this civil and challenging conversation. Those are always good.

[Isome]

68. It seems unfair to lump you in with them... doesn't it?

I can feel your pain. Unfortunately, the truth is what it is.

White males do hold power. It's white males who unwittingly (or wittingly) benefit from the stereotype of white men in power, i.e., if you're white, you're trustworthy, belong in this store/neighborhood/ restaurant/workplace. It's powerless white males, who aspire to be the ones holding power, that have a skewed perception of the abuse of power. And, the same white men's acquiescence and failure to exercise social sanctions keeps the scales of social justice unbalanced... in their favor.

No matter how well-intentioned a non-white person may be, their entreaties for more enlightened policy decisions are more likely to be dismissed outright than thoughtfully considered. That puts the onus (to begin true introspection) upon other white males.

[QC]

69. It doesn't just seem unfair. It is.

Did you happen to catch the blowup between Franken and O'Reilly on CSPAN? There was a very interesting exchange between O'Reilly and Molly Ivins that fits nicely here.

O'Reilly launched into her with his usual "liberals want big government" schtick, and she stopped him mid-bluster and replied, "My name is not Liberals. My name is Molly Ivins." Whenever he returned to treating her as part of a faceless mass, she would stop him again and remind him that she was an individual, not "Liberals."

Likewise, I am considerably more than my biology.

I understand your point about race and gender privilege--they are very real and vitally important. But they are not the only forms of advantage in our society. For example, there is class privilege, something the Left used to care about but now avoids discussing just as assiduously as the right always has. And, there is such a thing as heterosexual privilege, a subject that makes even the nicest liberals remarkably uncomfortable. And, of course, there are other forms of privilege as well.

My objection is to acting as though some forms of privilege are all-important and others do not exist. It gives us a very skewed picture of reality and it alienates fellow progressives who resent being classed with the likes of George W. Bush.

[Isome]

71. some forms of privilege are all-important and others do not exist...

I sure to say that I "feel your pain", so you'll understand why I can now say: you'll get no argument from me about that (your quote that's referenced in the subject line).

However, with regard to white male privilege, its overwhelming influence on this society cannot be negated by the existence of privileges for white male sub-groups. After all, there are still "Log Cabin" Republicans who fully support the * Administration's policies. Also, the Molly Ivin's retort (which I did see on on C-Span) was effective in nullifying the distorted pronouncements of what "liberals" stand for in general, but apropos to white male privilege, it doesn't fit because no argument has been made that all white males are raging, bigoted, cheap labor, bullies.

[liberalmuse]

10. This is the first thing I noticed too.

All men. All white. All grinning in self-righteous satisfaction. I could almost hear them thinking, 'God's hand is upon us'.

[libertad]

12. those grins are chilling.

that's the first thing I noticed about the photo, too.

[Ficus]

18. I Bet

Allan Keys is pretty happy about it.

[Skittles]

13. black men?

did you see *ANY* women, of *ANY* color ???

[vi5]

3. I dont' often do this but....freeper alert?

A Zell miller quote? C'mon.

[Skittles]

19. yes -

he's way obvious

[mandyky]

22. LOL, yup

I have only read 4 posts and 2 seem to be trolling.

[Skittles]

26. we have to give credit to "Mr. President"

double :puke: :puke:

[Terwilliger]

4. late term abortion?

I thought it was a partial-birth abortion ban (whatever that means)

[adriennel]

20. same thing

[Terwilliger]

27. I'm sorry, there's no such animal as a 'partial-birth abortion'

there's no such thing...which makes the naming of the bill highly curious

[adriennel]

33. no such thing?

what do you mean? I believe the term "partial-birth abortion" refers to the termination of a pregnancy in the second or third (making it a 'late term abortion') which may or may not include partial delivery.
now, I don't agree with the term, partial birth abortion, which I believe was coined by the right to give their movement resonance(i.e. the inheritance tax becomes the 'death tax').

[Terwilliger]

35. that's what it is, a propaganda term

there is no such thing as a "partial-birth" abortion, unless the baby is partially birthed, which is never the case

Late-term abortion is what it is, and when is anybody going to have a late 2nd-term or 3rd-term abortion unless its medically necessary?

[Iris]

57. well done, Terwilliger!

Best and most precise (and concise!) response to this whole issue I've seen so far.

[Solomon]

5. Sorry, but it was the first thing I noticed too.

Struck me like a lightning bolt when I picked up the paper. All white men smiling like they just did something. And I mean they were "white" white men.

[demon67]

9. What exactly is a "'white' white man"

and what on earth is the implication of that?

[Terwilliger]

30. hitting close to home?

the implication is that Bush was selling this new anti-abortion law to the same group of people who appeared with him on stage to sign the bill

[liberalmuse]

6. That isn't the point.

The point is, this is NOT a government issue--it is a personal issue. We are inching ever closer to government taking control of our reproductive systems. I don't agree with late-term abortion, but there are those rare cases when it is absolutely necessary. To allow the rights of a fetus, or potential human being's rights to take precendence over that of an actual being's is wrong. To put it crudely, blunty but truthfully, a fetus is a parasite that is 100% dependent on another in order for it to grow and thrive, until that time it is ready to become a sentient being.

These same men bombed 15,000 people into oblivion, and they want us to believe they are concerned with human life? Hypocrites!

In saying this, I will state that I am personally against abortion, but what someone else chooses to do with their own body is none of my business. I also believe we should respect potential life, but before that, we should respect and ensure the human beings already on this planet have a decent quality of life before we start crusading for the rights of fetuses.

[Gman]

8. Because its all stupid white men making these decisions

Whitey (the man) dominates everything.

[webDude]

14. And Condi and Colin are just helpful "house servants"? I don't think so.

nt

[liberalmuse]

16. Huh?

Where did that come from, and what does this have to do with the current discussion? Please explain.

[Monte Carlo]

17. Did you see the RNC in Philadelphia in 2000?

Aside from all the tokens trotted out on the stage, the Republicans is the party for white men and what they want. What's the problem?

[webDude]

21. Well, since Condi and Colin are big, lying war criminals like the rest ...

of the administration, out for their own gains, and they happen to be black, I would surmise that the Republican party is not all white.

And again, if I had said, "What's the problem?" to an issue that involved black , brown, purple, anything-but-white, I would have been accused of being insensitive, ...but it's okay if the color is white, to be insensitive?

I suggest that it is just as wrong. I will grant you that the histories are very different, but to continue the attitude is STILL to do an injustice.

[Monte Carlo]

34. Well I stereotype most people anyway...

... so I am probably being racially insensitive. I think it's funny.

[JanMichael]

31. "Nothing but evil"? Let me guess...Are you an angry, white...

...fundamentalist, conservative, "democrat"...Male?

Hell I could be wrong, probably am, but you sure do talk the talk.

[Terwilliger]

44. he looks like a tombstone

:thumbsdown:

[Muckle37]

49. deletions

A couple of questions from a new poster:

1. What are "freepers?"

2. What are deleted messages? Why are messages deleted if this is a political discourse room? Vulgar language, I guess?

Thanks!! Let's get this D-train rolling!!

[spooky3]

67. hi Muckle37

Welcome to DU!

1. People who seem to have attitudes shared by people who post at a neoconservative site, freerepublic.

2. See the board rules for posting. A deleted message violates one or more of the rules.

Hope this helps.

[JVS]

11. So when does the ban go into effect?

[ieoeja]

23. Richard Casey (white man) speaks.

The order by U.S. District Judge Richard Casey in New York temporarily stops U.S. Attorney General from enforcing the ban against the plaintiffs, their employees and agents.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20031107/ts_nm/bush_abortion_ruling_dc_8

[ieoeja]

25. Richard Kopf (white man) speaks

Less than one hour after President Bush signed the ban into law yesterday (Wednesday), a federal judge in Nebraska blocked its implementation. U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf says the law does NOT include an exception for preserving the health of the woman seeking an abortion.

http://www.kolnkgin.com/story.asp?id=8

[ieoeja]

28. Howard Dean (white man) speaks

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, a Democratic presidential contender and a physician, expressed outrage that "Bush has decided that he is qualified to practice medicine."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/neal/cst-edt-neal07.html

[ieoeja]

29. Leroy Carhart (white man) speaks

Dr. Leroy Carhart, who brought the successful suit against the Nebraska ban, is challenging Bush's action. "It is an attack on women's rights to obtain safe procedures," Carhart said. "As a doctor, it is my duty to use the safest procedures I have available once a patient decides to terminate her pregnancy. By signing this ban, President Bush put my patients' health, reproductive abilities, and very lives at risk."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/neal/cst-edt-neal07.html

[JanMichael]

32. Maybe instead of "The" you could have said "These"?

Because I'm a "white" male myself and I sure as shit don't support those flaming assholes.

[Terwilliger]

36. yes, but, as usual, white men are the problerm

and all the tangential side issues that go along with it

We didn't see a cadre of black men, or black and white women on stage with Bush...a white man of some notoriety himself.

[ieoeja]

37. Oh goody.

Next time a group of black men do something bad, I think I'll just post a message saying that "as usual, black men are the problem".

[Terwilliger]

38. I'm sorry, are you not paying attention?

Where do you think the conservative, right-wing tendencies come from in this country? Where have they always come from?

This whole confederate flag flap...who do you think were most likely to dismiss the issue out-of-hand?

When rights for blacks, gays, or other minority groups is offered, just who is it that screams the loudest against their "rights"?

[ieoeja]

39. Would that be ...

... those white Kennedy's?

[spooky3]

40. If 8 or 9 women were encircling the president

you'd better believe that the captions of the photo would make mention of the fact that they were women.

This is particularly true if the president were at the time signing a bill restricting men from getting a male-only medical procedure that would protect their health.

[Terwilliger]

42. Do you think the Kennedy's are causing problems?

I notice you didn't address what I said at all.

[ieoeja]

45. No. Do you think "The White Men" are?

Where do you think the conservative, right-wing tendencies come from in this country? Where have they always come from?

Conservative tendencies come from those who are themselves uneasy with change/progress, take pity on others who uneasy with progress, in a specific instance believe the change would be for the worse, or for purely greedy purposes do not wish to upset their own position within the status quo. Right-wing excesses come from those who are horribly frightened by changes or who are particularly greedy.


This whole confederate flag flap...who do you think were most likely to dismiss the issue out-of-hand?

If you're talking about the Dean thing, then I would think anybody who chose to use an ounce of sense. Those least likely to dismiss the Dean statement out-of-hand are either behaving intellectually dishonestly, or need to (re-)read what Dean said.


When rights for blacks, gays, or other minority groups is offered, just who is it that screams the loudest against their "rights"?

Bigots. White males would, of course, lead the way because this country is led by white males. The vast majority of those legislators who passed the civil rights legislation into law were white men. Conversely, the majority of the Ku Klux Klan are white men (I believe there may be some white women though maybe not). Most of the Jews and Catholics whom the KKK revile are white and roughly half of them are male. I believe 100% of the legislators who voted to make slavery unconstitutional were white men.

Muslims believe that Jews should be relegated to second class status. The Iraquois thought the first white men they encountered were sickly creatures based on their appearance. The British not so long ago believed the Irish incapable of self-rule. The Nation of Islam believes racism is genetic and limited to whites. There is a very strong Chinese tendency to consider everyone else beneath them. And so it goes.

[Brewman_Jax]

47. RW talking point

That's already Republican SOP, see Bush Sr. and Jesse Helms campaigns.

When a group of black men in suits can wreak havoc like the white men in the photo, THEN you can whine.

[ieoeja]

48. Yes, it is.

I have seen this before. Rightwingers, for example, came up with:

"If you can hit me up for child support, I should have a say in abortion."


Certain liberal minded folk like myself then turned it around to:

"Since I support your right to abortion, you should support my right to opt out of child support during the pre-natal period."


Prompting other liberals to accuse me of trying to inject rightwing code words into the discussion when, in fact, I am being completely, fully, intellectually honest. I DO believe the mother has the right to pre-natally opt out of a pregnancy (via abortion) with nobody else's permision and DO believe that the father should have the same right (via legal means obviously, not physically).


But back to the current subject, you are wrong, I CAN and WILL defend myself from the charge of racism. Especially when that charge has been levied based on the actions of other men whose actions I oppose.

[Terwilliger]

64. current subject

But you must admit that white men are the prime movers of the right-wing treatises. Not all white men are bad, but that doesn't mean people besides white men are responsible for the social conservatism that's destroying this country.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleApple81]

43. Lautenberg (D-NJ) made the point on the Senate floor today.

This is a white man who has daughters and granddaughters and does not like other white men destroying women's rights.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=668568

[funkyflathead]

46. What is up with their race?

Why all white guys? What Alan Keys had to stand outside the door holding the coats?

[okieinpain]

50. well I not pissed off at the white men, but the white women who

keep voting for these fools.

[Iris]

58. and sleeping with them!

And I guess I can say this since I'm a white woman.

[spooky3]

65. I blame all their voters equally.

[knight_of_the_star]

52. The bill is already suffering

Federal courts out here in California and in New York have already challenged the law. This is going to be a stiff uphill battle for it to survive, not say that is a BAD thing!

[Iris]

59. as long as some poor woman doesn't end up being forced to

give birth to a child with a half a brain because she's caught up in the middle, then, yes, I'd say it's not a bad thing now that the damage is done.

[spooky3]

66. and all the resources of the ACLU and other organizations

AND your taxpayer dollars

will be wasted on fighting this battle when they could be doing good in other ways.

That is an outrage.

[Cleita]

60. Well, Gubmit now says that we senior citizens can't

get cheaper drugs from Canada. Gotta protect those po' pharmaceutical companies like Glaxo, Lily and et al from letting thier Croesus-like profits go down. Who cares about all those old pharts anyway who can't afford their medication. It's time they died anyway. Those same white men are doing this too.

[Hippo_Tron]

70. But Dr. Frist gets an exemption because Karl Rove likes him...

He can perform all the abortions he wants.