Southerners - tell me I'm wrong about this

[maggrwaggr]

my experienced in the South, while somewhat limited, has shown me this:

That a whole lot of southerners are really embarrassed about the redneck racist element of their states.

I've seen the most derogatory comments made toward "hillbillies" come from white men in the South who aren't racist rednecks. They seem to HATE HATE HATE them.

All these posts about "The South" has made me want to start this thread. In my experience The South is a complicated place with a lot of different kinds of people in it. It's weird to see how people want to lump it all into a homogenous mass.

There is no typical "southern white male". Any more than there's a typical "NE white male" or "western white male"

Anyone agree with this? Do southerners really hate their racist brethren? Are they embarrassed because of them?

In my travels in the South I find the people to be generally extremely nice. I'm usually in cities, however.

[kentuck]

1. There are racists in the North also ....

But basically, I agree with your characterizations...

[PVnRT]

2. Agreed

People should be judged individually, but some people here at DU seem to have a problem doing that. Far easier to just paint one segment of the population as a bunch of assholes beneath their contempt.

[TennesseeWalker]

3. Well......

I think it's a mixed bag. I'm constantly confronted by the things that I wish were different here...and I live in the mountains of Northeast Tennesse, right in the heart of Appalachia.

I tend to "hate the sin and love the sinner", just like my more religious neighbors do, except the sins I'm talking about aren't the same as theirs. It's more of a "forgive them, father, for they know not what they do".

In the last 30 years, I've seen the South change quite drastically. There are a lot of tolerant people here, a lot of educated folks who love the area, the heritage, the history, and the sweetness. But, we tend to be embarassed by the "redneck" image that tarnishes us to the outside world. Those of us that aren't embarassed by that tend to be rabid partisans of GW Bush, and are the stereotypical Rebel Flag-waving peckerwoods. Having said that, I find most folks to be fairly misunderstood, and when you actually show them a little respect, they tend to look toward you more favorably, even if your opinion is different than theirs.

These people DO vote against their class interests, just like Dean MEANT to say (and I'm not necessarily a Dean guy, but I know what he meant). Tolerance tends to rise with educational level, and the more educated folks are here, the more we dislike the stereotype.

A black friend of mine, noting how rankled folks g0t when the "New Beverly Hillbillies" was being developed said: "Now you know how I'VE felt all these years".

:) I love the South, I love southerners, and I don't much care for Republican politics. And there are a lot more folks like me down here, they're just afraid to speak out.

And by the way, a lot of my friends are Republicans. They tend to be that way because of church, guns and taxes. Brainwashed, mostly. ;)

[JitterbugPerfume]

6. most of my family lives in the south

cousins, aunts , uncles . They are good people who would give you their last dime We do not talk politics We love and understand each other It makes me sad to see them stereotyped

[TennesseeWalker]

7. Agreed. Most of my family would do anything for anyone.

True Christians, in the biblical sense, not the Jerry Falwell/Shrub/Supply Side Jesus brand.

[Kanary]

37. Family Don't Talk Politics

I've found myself thinking about this alot.

When it involves a family of conservatives, what happens when ~~gasp~~one of the family members is gay? What happens when ~~gasp~~ one of the family members has to receive some form of assistance in order to survive? Is it never discussed? Is the family member then either an outcast or must remain completely silent?

I realize this would differ from family to family, but I can't help but think about it, and wonder about those people, as a "black sheep" myself. ~~gigglesnort~~

Thanks for bringing this up, and I'm really appreciating the good conversation!

Kanary

[magnolia]

4. IMHO

I'm not a born Southerner, but I've been one for 15 years...so I consider myself a Southerner. I've been hard on my people...I've criticized and made fun of them, mostly out of frustration...but I apologize for that. Most Southerners are very intelligent, good people. Even rednecks aren't all bad. The fact is that I know guys who drive pick up trucks and have conferate flags on the window and to them, this represents pride in the south...not rascism. Mostly, with the flag it's misunderstanding. I think the flag has been given way too much power. The people who display it did not own slaves...and the people who are offended by it were never slaves, so maybe we all need to be more understanding and sensative to each other and let it all go.
But, you didn't ask about the flag. To answer your question...NO, I am not embarassed by rednecks as I know many who are democrats and environmentalists, and not necessarily NRA members. This is the exception of course, but they do exist.
I'm originally from Michigan...which is primarily democratic, but they have Ted Nugent. So...the south has by no means cornered the market on idiots!!!!!

[On the Road]

5. I Can Tell You that Southerners Feel Misunderstood

and unfairly singled out for racism. And to some extent I agree with them.

In the North, whites and blacks have traditionally been much more naturally segregated and live separate lives in separate communities. In the South, blacks and white traditionally have had much more daily contact. And in one sense, there was a lot more mutual understanding and affection. It's just that the whites insisted on being the masters. In the North, nobody cared as long the races didn't have to deal with each other.

At least what Southerners I knew used to say. And from having lived in both places, there is some truth to this. Integration cut deeper in the South, and they have had to make more personal adjustments.

[mot78]

41. Although the media tends to favor * I think they have an anti-Southern

bias, and this only helps people like Limbaugh magnify their sclm accusations.

[Devlzown]

8. Complicated is right.

Most of us seem to move around in our various social circles and rarely venture outside of them. While this does tend to isolate many of us from one another, it makes confrontations rare.

[Brotherjohn]

9. As a southerner, I agree. People stereotype us all too often.

Especially the "southern white male".

That is NOT what Dean was doing, however. He did not say, or even imply, that all southern white males were rednecks with confederate flags on their trucks. He simply made the point that THOSE are the southern white males that the Dems need to reach out to.

Speaking as a southern white male myself, I can tell you that the Dems already have the vote of most southern white males who are NOT the type who would display the confederate flag. As far as those who are, the Dems need to regain those voters to win in the south.

Think about it. One's first instinct is to label a white southerner who displays the confederate flag as an automatic Republican... a hopeless cause. But Deans point was bigger than that. Those of us in the south know from first hand experience and observation that many of these people might not be displaying the confederate flag were it not for decades of race-baiting, Willie Horton, "welfare queen" type stereotyping and scapegoating by Republicans. They have successfully "converted" many, many southern whites to their way of thinking, and Dean acknowledges that we need to work to get these guys back over to our side. This will not happen overnight. Many of these people may retain certain racist opinions. But the more we appeal to them, the more open-minded they become, the more they drift back into the Democratic fold, and the better off we'll all be.

Dean is simply talking about shifting the political spectrum back towards the left in the south. To do that, we have to appeal to ALL southerners, not just liberal minorities and whites. That would simply be preaching to the choir.

[Some Moran]

24. Wow!

Tell that one to the Dean-bashing ninnies.

[Brotherjohn]

26. Got a little side-tracked on the Dean point, but, yes, I generally agree.

We don't "hate" rednecks, though. It's more of a frustration and embarrassment. You have to remember, these are people, by and large, that we work with and, often, are related to. The latter is why you have seen so many replies here about not talking politics with family. In the south, that just has disaster written all over it.

[hlthe2b]

10. Having lived/worked in every region o f the country....

I am always amazed at the lack of understanding, stereotyping, or just plain ignorance among residents of one US region with regard to another. I remember the classical (and documented) incident where a phone call for tickets to the GA olympic hotline was referred to the international line, when the respondent found the caller was from "New Mexico." I remember the puzzled questions about safety from Indians and the puzzled response as to the location of Wyoming from New Yorkers. I won't go on, but you get my drift.

Ignorance continues when people don't care enough to educate themselves about other people and cultures and when they won't try to relate to those differences. The media only perpetuates that ignorance, where we don't insist on more from them.

[Skip Intro]

11. Oh what the heck

Yes, I agree with you. I've lived in SC all my life and traveled to neighboring states somewhat frequently. There are racists here. I don't hate them, I try not to hate period (tho the slime in the bush regime has me making exceptions).

I am very bothered by the bashing of the south by supposedly thoughtful and enlightened people. To believe that all southerners are racists is itself bigotry, and I've seen it here on these boards.
Bigotry is in no way limited to any one region of the country as I'm sure racial minorities, gays, women, the poor, etc. in other parts of the country can verify. Hell, ask Native Americans outside the south if they've encountered racism. Ask blacks in LA, or Detroit or Cincinatti. Ask Sharpton if NY is free of bigotry.

The issue is not served by blind prejudice against the south.

[Some Moran]

25. Don't ask Sharpton...

He considers reaching out to White voters a racist act...lol

[Iris]

12. What bothers me

is the way people act like 98% of, say, the state of GA voted for Bush. In reality it was a bit over 50%, so that means there are 40-some odd percent who did not vote Republican.

[TennesseeWalker]

13. Same with Tennessee

Although I am embarrassed that we had a chance to put a native son in the White House and fifty percent of our population screwed him over.

[Iris]

19. I feel your pain. But thanks for backing up my point!

[Eloriel]

22. Uhhh, you had fairly significant vote suppression and the

probability (IMO) of vote fraud similar to FL in TN in 2000 too. Don't automatically believe that Gore "lost" TN. I don't.

Eloriel

[Hep]

14. I'll tell you what I can

my experienced in the South, while somewhat limited, has shown me this:

That a whole lot of southerners are really embarrassed about the redneck racist element of their states.

True


I've seen the most derogatory comments made toward "hillbillies" come from white men in the South who aren't racist rednecks. They seem to HATE HATE HATE them.

Hate is strong. We resent them.

All these posts about "The South" has made me want to start this thread. In my experience The South is a complicated place with a lot of different kinds of people in it. It's weird to see how people want to lump it all into a homogenous mass.

Can't be done, what with all the damn carpetbaggers around here.

There is no typical "southern white male". Any more than there's a typical "NE white male" or "western white male"

Anyone agree with this? Do southerners really hate their racist brethren? Are they embarrassed because of them?

Not hate. Embarassed yes. Resentful (of them electing Jesse Helms over and pover and over) yes.

In my travels in the South I find the people to be generally extremely nice. I'm usually in cities, however.

People in the country are nice too, if you approach them the right way. Very welcoming, very generous. Their politics are their own. If you don't bring it up, they won't offer it.

[TennesseeWalker]

17. Yep.

We don't bring up politics much, or religion either. Gets really nasty if you do that.

[TennesseeWalker]

18. Yep.

We don't bring up politics much, or religion either. Gets really nasty if you do that.

[mmonk]

15. Close

we don't deny the confederate past or the Jim Crow past or the existence of racists. To be its only identifying marker and to be judged (if you are a southern white) as uneducated, racist, etc. and only begin issues based on that judgement or presented only in that manner naturally sparks a reaction because of its dismissive nature.

[Bombtrack]

16. It's an insult in many parts of the south

Snobbery in the south is very similar to how it is in the north. Now more than ever, status and materialism is one of if not the most important thing to the majority of people.

So a person who would get dissed as a hick or a scrub in the north would be more likly to get dissed as a hillbilly or a redneck in the south.

White Trash is national thing as far as I've seen.

It's usually suburban people(northern and southern) who do the dissing that I've seen, because I don't know to many rural southern or northern people because I've never lived in a rural area.

But In Eastern/coastal suburb Massachusetts, anywhere west of Newton and Waltham(like 20-30 miles west of Boston) is hickville to most people and anybody from the New Bedford area or from Brockton(I believe insperation for "Crackton" on the Simpsons) are dirty ghetto trash if they are white.

In south Florida, snobby people seem to have a bigger geographical scope of predjudice against groups of white people.

[Eloriel]

20. The South IS a complicated place

And there are all kinds of people here.

But people "with Confederate flag on their pick-up truck" is one description of one sort (several sorts, actually) of Southerners living in my neck of the woods whose ears would definitely perk up, and not in a negative way.

Eloriel

[Muckle37]

21. Southerners

My family on my dad's side is from West Virginia from way back. Solid, salt-of-the-earth folks who grew up rural and poor -- coal miners, railroad workers, etc. My grandmom and granddad each were one of 12 kids. I have spent much time in the south, and can say that they are the warmest most humble folks I have ever known. They certainly can be a little regressive when it comes to modern social concerns, but that is more a result of their generation and upbringing. They love their hunting and trucks and fixing up cars, and they may even say the N-word, but they will share their last bit of food with you, and will gladly set an extra plate if company stops by unannounced. When I visit my grandmom in her old farmhouse with a plate of biscuits and sausage gravy, my soul is replenished and I remember the important things in life -- family, humor, and a sense of belonging. Materialism is not part of their make-up, which I gladly teach to my children. I have an uncle who proudly wears the Confederate Flag on his belt buckle, and he is the most decent loving man I know. A great father and grandfather, owns his own business, and tells the funniest stories you've ever heard. Howard Dean does not know the first thing about the south, which is sad. For better or worse, elections are about race, God, guns, and gays -- all things Dean said they should not be about.

[Catherine Vincent]

28. If they still use the N word, then they are not that decent & loving, imo.

n/t

[mmonk]

30. I agree

haven't heard that word in a long time (except TV or music). But I live in a metro area. Can't say if its still used in real rural areas or deep south states. That said, there's no room for tolerance of that speech.

[maggrwaggr]

34. I've heard the N word used by senior citizens

including my grandparents before they died. (they were from Missouri, which some people think of as the south)

[PVnRT]

35. "They"

What, the entire South is to be judged by a segment of its population? I think you missed the point of this thread. And, as someone replied to you, there are racists all over the North and out West that use that N-word too. How do you feel about them? Do you judge all of them by that subset of jerks?

[frustrated_lefty]

46. It's a word I feel shouldn't be used.

There was a situation I found myself in with a friend several years ago, in North Carolina. The friend had to ask a mechanic where she could find so-and-so. The mechanic answered "he's the big buck nigra" out back. There was no animosity in the statement, no judgment.

That was simply a word in his vocabulary.

Words only have as much meaning as we choose to give them.

I try to be tolerant of words these days and find out what people mean when they use them.

This isn't an apology or justification for the use of the "N" word, it was just a weird situation hearing the word used without hate, judgment or animosity.

[adriennel]

23. if it makes you feel better...

...we have our share of racists and rednecks in the North too (I'm in MI)

[dbt]

27. This is the first sensible thread about the South I have seen on DU

In AGES!

This place is a boiling mess of contradictions. A lot of us have long given up on trying to figure it out or explain to ANYbody, ourselves included.

The longer I live here, the less I actually know about it. I am SO enjoying other Southerners' takes on the mystique.

Thank y'all so much,
:bounce:
dbt

Obligatory Conundrum: Some of us have found a dimension of Hillbilly that we believe to be worthy of embracing. We will even refer to ourselves as such. Go figure.

[mandoman]

29. What the root problem is:

As with so many other issues facing our nation ,ignorance and not being properly informed gives many people misconceptions about just about anything.Having lived in S.C. for 30 years I have found that most people are very sincere about their beliefs and find it difficult to change them , even in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.Pride very often gets in the way ,because having to admit that they were wrong is difficult .This is particularly true in those individuals with a limited education ,and "live" in a small social circle of people with similar backgrounds and attitudes.Age is also a factor since older generations tend to be less educated, and have never developed critical thinking skills.Despite the fact that racism will always be there to some degee,there is hope in that the younger and more educated generation is more tolerant and for the most part do not reflect the negative racial and stereotypical attitudes of their parents.

[newyawker99]

31. Hi mandoman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[supernova]

32. Wow! A sensible thread about the South

on DU? Who would have thought it? :crazy:

My answers:

That a whole lot of southerners are really embarrassed about the redneck racist element of their states.

True. And as someone else said, the embarrassment level of the individual generally rises with the education level. Unless you've become so zen about it all you come back around to seeing the beauty of the rural life, in all it's contradictions.

But, there are a lot of well-educated folks who fall into the trap of thinking that education level = better human being. Equally a craven form of snottiness. It's more appropriate to say that the more education you have, the better human being you are than you otherwise would be. Self-improvement, not self above others. "Don't forget where you came from" is more than a common slogan here. It means remember and be thankful for the people who came before and made it possible for you to do well at your chosen path.

I've seen the most derogatory comments made toward "hillbillies" come from white men in the South who aren't racist rednecks. They seem to HATE HATE HATE them.

Well, it's a form of sibling abuse, IMO. You won't tolerate other people (read: non-Southerners) picking on your poorer cousin, but that doesn't mean you won't pass up the chance to get in your best digs! ;-) We prefer to pick on our own, IOW. And the rednecks pick back at us, too. It's not a one way street. They make sure to tell us yuppies when we get too uppity and big for our britches. Don't acquire too much of an ego; we remember when you ran around barefoot with mud between your toes. ;-)

All these posts about "The South" has made me want to start this thread. In my experience The South is a complicated place with a lot of different kinds of people in it. It's weird to see how people want to lump it all into a homogenous mass.

Yes, it is wierd. It's also convenient for those on the left who are so angry they need a target to vent on, ergo they let loose on Bo and Luke Duke. Even though Bo and Luke were generally liberal. :crazy:

There is no typical "southern white male". Any more than there's a typical "NE white male" or "western white male"

White males in the south vary in opinions, just like everywhere else. It might be true that reactionary righties are more motivate to vote than their less dogmatic bretheren.

The concept of the liberal rural agrarian has fallen by the wayside and needs to be revived. It used to be quite popular. I don't know why that is. That's what I am a liberal ruralite, so were Jefferson and Washington.

It puzzles me. I was never conservative, was never raised with conservative philosphy in my home. Did I know conservatives? Of course. But the kind of reactionary neocon fanatic, that is prevelent today? Never. It's as foreign to me as it is to an uptown Manhattanite.

Anyone agree with this? Do southerners really hate their racist brethren? Are they embarrassed because of them?

Embarrased, Yes. See above. Hate them? No. I don't hate them. I have pity for their self-limited viewpoint. Some people never have a need to question their POV.

In my travels in the South I find the people to be generally extremely nice. I'm usually in cities, however.

Most southerners, city dwellers or rural dwellers mind their manners. If you grew up here, it's automatic to be kind to everyone as much as you can. The rationale I recieved growing up was "the other person might be having a worse day than you." Smiles always help.

My relationships with more conservative neighbors and family are friends, we just don't discuss politics. It's almost more private, off-limits, and obscene than sex. :crazy:


Thanks for this wonderful thread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. As Malcom said "racism is as American as apple pie"

It's not endemic to the south; it's pandemic to America and the world....

Every society including "enlightened Europe" has their in groups and out groups....

The fear or hatred for the others are hard wired into our systems...

That being said I grew up in the South in the 70's .... Went to school with southerners and transplanted northerners... Some of the white ethnics I went to school with were every bit as racist as their southern counterparts...

[QC]

36. America has typically viewed the South in two ways

(according to a few historians) and those two ways have a lot to do with the tone of discussions here and elsewhere.

One traditional approach to the South is that it is something foreign to the larger America. This is the "Benighted South" stereotype, popularized in books and movies.

The other approach, favored by Howard Zinn, is that the South is America distilled, and thus its problems are American problems more concentrated and thus made more visible. The Malcolm X quote above is an example of this view--that racism is an American institution. It is more problematic in the South, which has an ugly racial history, but it is not limited to the South.

IMO, those of us here who portray the South as some monstrous cancer on America, without which the nation could reach its full potential, are taking the first approach.

Those of us who try (usually unsuccessfully) to get people to consider a more nuanced approach--in other words, those of us who acknowledge the problems of racism, class stratification, religious fanaticism, and anti-intellectualism in the South while insisting that those are not uniquely or even primarily Southern problems-- tend to follow the second approach.

Great thread! It's rare to see such a sensible, polite, and thoughtful discussion on this subject!

[dbt]

38. Kick!

Just because something happened regarding The South today here in GD that did not degenerate. This is truly wonderful.

:loveya:
dbt

[MrPrax]

39. Or the South has never been respected

by their conquerors and racism has always been a 'tool' to be manipulated irrespective of Southerners and their culture, foibles and contribution.

Even people with a US built pick up truck who live in the South and have a 'stars and bars' sticker next to the sticker proclaiming their favorite music station require health care, a job and dignity.

[msmcghee]

40. These posts are good.

In our frustration at being trashed by the BFEE we often strike out - at anyone, even if they don't deserve it.

I've seen attacks against other DUer's who have different opinions - against repuke stereotypes, like white male southerners as this thread recognizes - and of course attacks against others' dem presidential candidates.

First, it's OK to be angry. We deserve it as we're being trashed daily by some really bad a**holes on the right. But we really are the good guys here - and, what comes around goes around. We'll have our day - it's just a question of how long we have to wait.

But my main concern is what this thread illustrates - our anger, unless carefully focussed, can alienate people who would normally be on our side.

Just a suggestion - we should try to remember that every group that we can identify, even the most right-wing bunch you can think of - probably has at least one or two good people in it. Some probably have lots of them - who might be very open to our view of things if we gave them a little respect. They could be there for many reasons totally unrelated to the group's stated ideology.

People normally want to be good - and be seen as good by others. Our approach to government is the winning ticket in that respect.

By being open and accepting - i.e. by being liberals - and assuming they are all good folks and giving them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise - many folks, not just southern white males with confederate flags on their pickups - could be our allies instead of our enemies. Maybe I'm being naive - but it seems right to me. Isn't that just how liberals should treat others?

Just a Friday evening thought. :hippie:

[shepard]

42. To understand the South

I guess what I would want to say is you have to live there.It is simply just a way of life.Slow and easygoing.There are idiots everywhere in this country not just the South,but what you need to do is look beyond that and see the South for what it is,and what I know it's a great place to live.No I can't say I hate the racist people,what I feel for them is sorrow that they live such a narrow life that they will never know what all of our cultures bring to this great nation.Ahe'ee Nehemah

[The Commie]

43. The only problem I have with many southerners...

...Is that many seem to be religious nutcases down there, or at least that is looks like. I personally think This crap is a combination of ignorance of science (creationists, for example), or brainwashing from the likes of Falwell ans his cronies.

[msmcghee]

45. Wellcome commie . .

We liberals always assume that people arrive at their ideology for logical reasons - because we think we do.

The truth is the conservatives think the same thing.

And we're both wrong. People connect to religion and ideology for many different reasons - almost never because of reason or logic. Mostly they (we) do it because their (our) friends and family do it.

In the south - there is a greater probability that your friends or family will be religious. They're not nutcases - they just love their family and friends enough that they want to please them. That allows them to see the "rightness" of religion - for them.

I'm an atheist BTW - who has many religious friends who I believe are very good people.

[maggrwaggr]

47. there are plenty of religious nutcases in Minnesota

which is apparently your home.

I drive through that state once a year. I see signs along the highway proclaiming right-to-life propaganda of the most religious sort.

The family members I have there are dark-ages fundie religious evangelical zealots.

And they have a lot of friends up there.

[KaraokeKarlton]

44. The Confederate flag is just something used as an excuse by both

blacks and whites to avoid talking about and resolving the issues that need to be discussed and resolved. Afterall, it's much easier to polarize people and use avoidance than it is to do something you find uncomfortable.

It's time to stop using excuses and avoidance and just deal with the problems so they can be resolved.