People are missing the depth of Dean's statement.

[Brotherjohn]

I think Dean when Dean SAID we should appeal to southerners with confederate flags on their trucks, what he didn't say (but what was cleverly implied) was that Republicans have "appealed" to these people far too much.

Deeper in his statement (but just as intentional, I believe) was the idea that Republican "appeals" to them are part of what has made them drift towards the kind of beliefs that would cause them to proudly display the confederate flag. Republicans have stoked anger directed towards minorities, and flying the rebel flag is one way that angry white males "fight back". Another way, unfortunately, is voting Republican.

I say this as a white southern male who has seen many a colleague, many a relative, whose anger has been stoked and encouraged by Republican scapegoating of minorities.

Dean was simply saying that we need to appeal to such people in order to reverse the trend. We can't simply write them off as permanent Republican voters. It is, at least in part, Republican "appeals" to them that have made them drift right. We will never win in the south again if we only appeal to liberal minorities and liberal whites. That is merely preaching to the choir.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Contraire mon pere

I DID get the context of his statement and fundamentally agreed with it. I think deeper than that he was saying that the GOP has appealed to RACISM in order to keep CLASSISM at bay.

My MAIN issue and ONE that he cleaned up was even INVOKING the Confederate Flag to do it.

Given the HUGE issue this has been in Mississippi and South Carolina, he has invoked this flag SEVERAL time in speeches and while we DO need to appeal to those who wave that flag for reasons OTHER than that flag...we need to be ever vigilant that it does NOT send the wrong message to those LOYAL as our base.

[Brucey]

3. Agreed.

Black people are not happy about the use of CF in making points. The point can be made less harshly. Poor and middle class southern whites should vote Dem for economic reasons.

[JackRiddler]

38. True, and this was the ugly Machiavellian part of it...

Because only by invoking that flag (in fact, only by being *attacked* for it by the other Dems) was he even able to get attention on this issue, and to be noticed by this group.

If he'd said anything else, if he had spoken sensitively and intelligently about how race is used to trump class and get working-class people voting for the right... no one would have noticed.

So invoking that flag was a necessary strategem on behalf of a good cause - and a daring risk evincing courage and honesty - and a pretty disgusting, opportunistic, bare-knuckle power-move - and an insensitivity to the black voters who are presumed to already be in the (D) column...

All rolled into one. And whatever the defects of the way it was done, someone had to try it.

And I don't like it, whereas I like it.

And on the whole, it seems for now to have worked.

[sangh0]

2. And who's fault is that?

If Dean wants to communicate a message, it's Dean's responsibility to formulate it in a way that will communicate the message he wants to communicate. In this instance, he failed. Even Dean agrees.

[Brotherjohn]

9. I think the pundits and Dean critics are missing it. I don't think...

... everyone is. I think his point was made very clearly. I think it is hard for people (especially opponents who are simply interested in tarnishing his image) to address the truths it brings up.

He brought up an important point in a clever way, I thought. Yes, it seemed clumsy, and he "apologized" for it as much as he had to. But talking about race in America today IS clumsy.

All the hoopla from pundits and critics aside, with that statement, Dean has at once appealed to minorities and conservative southerners alike. Minorities because he gave notice that he was willing to discuss race (don't think most minorities missed the subtext of his statement), and conservative southerners because he gave them reason to be more open-minded about a Democratic candidate.

That is no small trick.

[sangh0]

12. I think you're overstating your case.

If Dean had really made his point "very clearly", the pundits and the critics wouldn't be talking about the confederate flag. They be talking about race. Also, the fact that he did a "clumsy" job on it does not qualify him to talk about race. If anything, it disqualifies him to moderate such a sensitive issue (Note: it's a "sensitive" issue, a "difficult" issue. It's NOT a "clumsy" issue) that requires a bit of sensitivity, not one of Dean's strong points.

And as far as appealing to minorities, I doubt it. He hasn't lost them, but I think minority members are smart enough to realize that:

a) Dean wasn't appealing to minorities with that statement. He was appealing to white men. Minorities know that they don't have a flag decal on their pickup truck

b) Dean could have done a better job of making that point. Even Dean agrees with this.

IOW, you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Even Dean acknowledges it was a mistake and apologized for it. Who do you think you're fooling portraying this a great victory for race relations

[blm]

14. Too bad your assumption is based on Dean's lie about why he said it.

Do you see ANYTHING about race relations in this article?

The whole article is about the NRA and gun control, and NOWHERE does Dean mention race relations. NOWHERE.

Now, what has Dean said about THIS comment? Nowhere does Dean say he was talking about the NRA when he made the remark. NOW, Dean says he was talking about race relations. That is not true.

Some of you are happy with Dean's lies and shifting stories. Many of us are not. We see disaster ahead from Dean's own mouth.
 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>> 
 Alert

[mzmolly]

22. Not this LIE again...

www.deanforamerica.com

There are many statements here which show Dean used this confederate flag remark on many occasions to address race.

There are many references here to debunk this ridiculous claim.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/Search?query=confederate+flag&inc=10&x=-1&y=-1

Address to Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting
Friday February 21, 2003

Washington, D.C. (February 21, 2003)

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Another article here.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1107-04.htm

[sangh0]

26. Not THAT lie again

I don't think many people are going to be fooled into thinking that the latest Dean gaffe is the result of what he said months ago in Feb.

It's because of what he said a fewe days ago. Check the dates of all statements cited

[blm]

41. But THIS time was in defense of his NRA support. NOT about race relations.

Why pretend he was talking about race when he made his dumb remark? Does it make you feel CLEANER? Why sanitize the FACT that he ONLY talked about guns and NOT race in this interview?

[JackRiddler]

43. How do you know what he talked about in the interview?

All you get to read is what is in the article.

[Brotherjohn]

44. Wrong. You are ignoring the fact that the reporter picked and chose...

... quotes in compiling a story about gun control.

The only thing we can say for sure is that THIS time, it was quoted by an Iowa Demoines Register reporter in a story about gun control to imply that Dean was using it only in that context. Unless you can link me to a full transcript of the "telephone interview from New Hampshire" to which the reporter refers, then you can't tell me the context he was using it in.

But even if gun control was being discussed in that phone interview, the other part of the statement makes Dean's context crystal clear: "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats." (it IS possible to make broader statements within the context of a discussion on a limited subject, you know) The many prior similar statements by Dean also make the context crystal clear. This is a standard statement used often by Dean to address race, and to address the need to attract conservative white southern voters back into the Democratic fold.

[blm]

46. He SAID he was talking about race relations. He was talking about the NRA

and NOWHERE does he mention race relations.

That broad section of Democrats he was appealing to was GUN-TOTING guys with Confederate flags. He was NOT attempting to discuss race relations with that reporter.

[Eloriel]

51. No, nowhere does the article mention it -- you have NO IDEA

how the remark came out, what remarks were before and after. It's not a TRANSCRIPT. It's an article, with selective quotes.

Dean has many, many months of saying the same thing already quoted, in every stump speech I've seen (and I've seen a bunch of them). You CANNOT divorce his past muliple statements from what he's saying now. Unless, of course, you just wanna play "gotcha politics," like your lame and lamer candidates engaged in during that debate.

Eloriel

[Demobrat]

4. I don't think people are missing it at all.

They're focusing on the symbol he used instead of the message to distract from the fact that he's the only one who's not afraid to open a can of worms and reach right in.

[Kanary]

5. missed....?

When you have to explain a joke, it loses it's humor.

I find it interesting, given that there are so many posts characterizing southerners as "simple people", that there is soooo much effort to "explain".

Just something to consider.

Kanary

[Brotherjohn]

10. As I stated above, I don't think he (nor I) has to explain it to...

... the people he was trying to reach: southern minorities and conservative whites. I think they "got" it, and the effect will be to make both groups more open to Dean.

[HPLeft]

6. The larger issue is...

that many Democrats are unwilling to compromise on core values, like intelligent gun-safety laws or racial discrimination, in order to court the support of voters who would prefer to be living in the 1950s - but happen to lack proper health insurance. If you win by compromising your core values, you accomplish nothing over the long term. The way Dean spins, maybe he doesn't believe in core values (other than his right to be President, that is), but many of us do - and we would prefer John Edwards' approach to courting the South to Dean's.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. You are damn right Dean doesn't believe in Dem core values

he's the one who is Bush Lite.

[haymaker]

18. Another negative shot from NewYorkerfromMass

Good one. Dean is Bush-lite, real, real nice.

Who do you support?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. Kerry-Clark-Edwards-Gephardt

in that order.

[DrFunkenstein]

34. That's Pretty Much My Position Too

n/t

[GumboYaYa]

7. Dean is fortunate that his support is solid enough

to survive his initial statements on this. Symbols are important to Americans. Just look at the number of American Flags on vehicles these days. When you invoke a symbol you must understand what it symbolizes. Dean stubled here and is fortunate that it has not caused a permanent fall.

Substantively Dean was right on point and I agree with your analysis. He needs to sharpen his delivery of the message and he has time to do that. Ultimately, this experience will make him a stronger candidate IMO.

[blm]

15. Dean's "message" was defending his NRA support.

Do you see ANYTHING about race relations in this article?


 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>> 
 Alert

[GumboYaYa]

25. Dean has also said that working class whites

sometimes vote Republican when their kids need healthcare and education, just like the children of minorities. They vote Republican even though the majority of the benefits from Republicans accrue to people of a very different socio-economic class than these voters.

One reason for these votes is the gun issue. Democrats lose a lot of voters because of the tough stance expected by many in our party on this issue. Dean correctly identifies this issue as you have pointed out.

Dean has also said that part of the reason for the schyzophrenic voting is race-based. He frequently points out in speeches that the GOP has used race as a way to divide Americans for years and it is time to stop that.

You see explaining the voting patterns of working class white Republicans is a really complicated set of issues and it includes the gun issue among others.

Beating everyone over the head with one speech and ignoring the many other staments made by Dean addressing these complicated issues is disingenuous.

[blm]

42. Yes, in the past. But, he was invoking THIS flag comment for his NRA stand

and NEVER mentioned race relations in the interview.

When he made his apologies he lied and said he was trying to discuss race relations. On Nov.1 he was ONLY talking about his NRA support and THOSE voters, not poor white folk.

The fact that so many of you are trying to sanitize his words and his blatant lie is disheartening.

[AP]

8. Dean wants to appeal to white people's feeling that they're the victims...

...of bush and of racism.

Maybe it'll work. Maybe the costs will be greater than the benefits in the long term. Maybe it'll fail miserably.

[Orangepeel]

13. "We should appeal to these voters"

The specific definition of appeal is very important here. Dean never said nor implied that we should change any kind of policy, value or viewpoint in order to be more appealing to such voters.

What he meant (and has been saying for months) is that we should make an appeal to their self interests and try to convince them of the truth of the fact that they are voting against what is best for themselves and their families.

[sangh0]

17. We should, but not with the Confederate flag

I don't care how popular it is or isn't down south. There are better ways to appeal to those people, and Dean flubbed an opportunity. If Dean's propensity to shoot from the hip makes it harder to discuss race or guns, then how is it going to work when Dean's facing down Kim Il Sung?

[haymaker]

19. Another reach.

"Facing down Kim Il Sung". Great drama.

[sangh0]

20. Great argument

if I could find it

[sangh0]

21. ANd you are being inconsiderate of the mods

You know, it takes work on their part to constantly delete your posts. Why don't you have a little consideration, and control yourself?

[Guaranteed]

16. If southern white males need a scapegoat,

we need to give them the real villains- the multi-national corporations and billionaire fascists, like those in the Bush administration.

[mzmolly]

23. There not missing it, there jumping on the bandwagon of opportunity

to trash a good candidate again. There pissed that Dean is the front runner. There shocked and confused. There grasping at straws.

This wasn't an issue before Sharpton made it one being pissed at Jesse Jackson Jr. for endorsing Dean. Then Edwards hopped on the bandwagon ~ suddenly Dean's statement was offensive.

It's politics as usual and it's nauseating. *sigh*

[sangh0]

29. Dean disagrees with you

Dean says that Edwards was genuinely sincere in his criticism of Dean's statement, but that doesn't stop the spinners from saying otherwise.

It's politics as usual and it's nauseating. *sigh*

[retyred]

24. Just one question

If Deans statement was meant to address just the poor and not what the flag represents to most blacks, why the reference to talking about race at the start of his statement?

It appears to me that by mentioning that he was going to talk about race "THEN" how he wanted to reach out and pander to the CF wavers, was an admission that he was willing to rally around the flag so to speak for exactly what the reference meant.

No Dean said exactly what he meant to say, had it been just the use of a poor metaphor for saying what he meant, he wouldn't have said he was going to talk about race to begin with.

Of course if someone could show me a black man with a CF on his pickup, I would be more than happy to excuse Dean for his racist remark.


Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[mzmolly]

28. One third of Blacks in Mississippi voted to use the confederate symbol

in their State Flag.

*According to an MSNBC report I watched 2 days ago.*

[sangh0]

30. And I've got a bridge to sell you

*According to an MSNBC report I watched 2 days ago.*

That should tell you all you need to know about that little piece of "information"

[Ripley]

40. I live next door to Mississippi and I watched with my own

eyes interviews with blacks about why they voted to keep the confederate flag on their state flag. History. They didn't want to change it.

But you must speak for all blacks, so it couldn't be true.

[sangh0]

48. LOL!

I see. The blacks I talk to don't speak for all blacks, but the one you saw on TV does.

[mbali]

52. Actually, that was a claim made by conservative nut

Larry Elder, without any sourcing or attribution on the Hardball. It wasn't an actual "report."

[Orangepeel]

31. sigh. some people are just determined to misunderstand

how in the world was it a racist statement? Some people are acting like the words "confederate flag" are equivalent to an ethnic slur.

From the context of the quote in question and, especially, from what he has been saying for months, what he meant is perfectly clear. He was NOT saying that the Democratic party should become anything different that it is in order to court the votes of racist idiots. He was saying that people who are racist idiots should stop voting for racist idiot reasons and start voting in the way that makes economic sense for themselves and their families.

[sangh0]

35. Then if his statement was about economic policy

then why did his apology focus on race?

[Brotherjohn]

39. Because that is what people took exception to.

[sangh0]

49. Nope. None called Dean a racist

or said that the statement was racist. All spoke about how inappropriate it was to reach out to those voters using a symbol linked to bigotry.

[RetroLounge]

32. and the usual suspects in the anti-Dean circle jerk are

obvious...

[CWebster]

33. For those who missed this earlier

Howard Dean's remarks about the need to appeal to white Southerners could certainly have been better phrased. But his rivals for the Democratic nomination should be ashamed of their reaction. They know what he was trying to say — and it wasn't that his party should go soft on racism. By playing gotcha, by seizing on the chance to take the front-runner down a peg, they damaged the cause they claim to serve — and missed a chance to confront the real issue he raised.

--snip--

Mr. Dean wasn't suggesting that his party adopt the G.O.P. strategy of coded racial signals, and by and large African- Americans — my wife included — understand that. What he meant by his flag remark was that Democrats must make the case to working Americans of all colors that the right's elitist agenda isn't in their interest. And he's right.

-------

The entire article is a good read, including about the elections this week.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/07/opinion/07KRUG.html

Get back to us with your responses, but what do you want to bet there won't be any?

[sangh0]

36. Missing the point

All of the people criticizing Dean's remark agree with the point he was trying to make. The point Dean's supporters inevitably avoid is how Dean screwed it up by distracting attention away from his point with the use of imagery that has been adopted by the bigots. For some reason, the Dean supporters don't want to discuss why some people think Dean might not be the best person to moderate sensitive issues.

[sangh0]

50. Strange!! No response from the guy who said

Get back to us with your responses, but what do you want to bet there won't be any?

[Forkboy]

37. Some people are genuinely offended by Dean's statement

the rest are Kerry and Clark supporters.

[many a good man]

45. New Civil War?

This issue is shaping up as DUers debating a second Civil War. Red vs. Blue. Save the Union or blow it off?

Should the party even bother attempting to appeal to those voters who are so completely separated from us on (some of) the wedge issues? Or should we give up all hope for them and flout our righteousness?

Everyone knows this party stands for civil rights. This party is unyielding on civil rights. Rubbing it in the faces of people who are mildly to severely bigoted robs us of the chance to expand their minds and capture their votes because they agree with us on the other 90% of the issues.

The culture wars are OVER and liberals have won. Civil rights for all groups are codified into law. Candidates should only to have to say that they promise to protect and defend the Constitution; equal rights under law .

We shouldn't play into the game of hyping up our support for groups and issues that are not well-liked by the unenlightened. It only enflames the wedge issues that keep us from being a true national party and gives ammunition to the enemy. If we can't get this nation to move on and tackle the real issues things will only get worse and worse.

[slor]

47. I will say it again...

I am a AA male and I was not offended by his statement. I WAS very offended to see AA standing behind haley barbour during his victory speech. Let us all move on from the statement and quit loading the gun which the rethugs will eventually point at Dean.