Clark, Dean, Clark/Dean, Dean/Clark, and the people in between.

[RandomUser]

There are a lot of people who like both and are torn between them. There are a lot of supporters of one candidate who like the other candidate as well.

I often hear people say they want a Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark ticket, and that they are supporting their particular candidate because they want to see him on top of the ticket. This is erroneous.

Although it is possible that the candidates may choose each other for VPs, it's also possible they won't. You are not voting between a Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark ticket, and assuming so may leave one much disappointed.

One should look at the worse case scenario, that they will not choose each other. That way, if they do, you'll be pleasantly surprised. And if they don't, you'll know that you made an honest choice, not based on wishful thinking.

Assume that you are voting for a Clark/no-Dean or Dean/no-Clark ticket. Which would you rather have? Would you rather have Clark and no Dean on the ticket? Or would you rather have Dean and no Clark on the ticket? Which do you feel is the stronger ticket? Which is the weaker ticket? The ticket without Clark, or the one without Dean?

Look at the candidates and their positions and your feel of them when you see their personal appearances. Look at who you think will have the best chance (not only chance, since many feel both can beat Bush). Look at who will have the most coat-tails to help take back the other seats. Look at who will be the best choice for this nation, the best to fix our foreign policy (it was voted the top priority in a DU poll).

If you decide that a Clark ticket without Dean is stronger than a Dean ticket without Clark, then choose Clark. If you decide that a Dean ticket without Clark is stronger than a Clark ticket without Dean, then choose Dean.

But realize that you are NOT voting for a Dean/Clark vs. Clark/Dean ticket. You may wish for it and urge your candidate to support it, but don't fool yourself that that is the choice you are making. You are not deciding the order of the ticket. You are choosing the one who will be on it, and choosing who you can live with not being on the ticket.

For those truly conflicted, I don't envy you your choice. I was a Dean supporter before Clark entered, so I know that both men have a bit of appeal. I will respect your choice whether it is Clark or Dean. But make this choice honestly, and know that you are not voting to decide who gets to be on top of the ticket. You are deciding who you can live with not being on the ticket.

And no, this is not a Dean bash thread -- I have a policy of trying to not bash other candidates. You won't find me in a Dean bash thread, or in a pro-dean thread making anti-dean remarks. I simply want people to understand their choice, and not think that they are voting for a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket.

[Rowdyboy]

1. I'm gonna refuse to vote

and simply say that I'll hope for Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark until that possibility becomes a reality. If it fails, (Say we get Gephart/Landrieu), I'll still vote for the ticket.

I just think Clark and Dean are an unbelievably perfect potential team. JMO.

[RandomUser]

3. You can certainly hope

And many do. But just wanted people to realize that if they voted for Dean, they may never get Clark. And vice versa. It's a tough choice.

[mmonk]

2. semantics, semantics

;)

[xultar]

4. I love my Clark Supporters!

That was a great post. I have not seen a thread where Clark Supporters were nothing but thoughtful in their posts about other candidates. I guess it is because we take our lead from our chosen candidate.

With that said...again great post. You are correct and have really brought a thought provoking point into the foreground for intelligent discussion.

I'd like to ask everyone...who are good VeeP candidates that aren't currently running for Prez. Let's get a good list.

[RandomUser]

6. Heh

The general inspires one to think. Wes Clark -- the thinking man's General! :)


(Of course, now, I'm likely to get flamed now by the usual rabid anti-clarkers saying that if I was thinking, I wouldn't be fooled by a PNAC MIC Republican DLC plant warmongering baby eater :))

[xultar]

27. OK everyone keeps saying that it is Clarkies who attack...

I'm trying to find the links to the posts where this has occurred. Have you seen any Clarkies attack? I'd really like to know cuz I don't want Clarkies treating others with disrespect.

[RandomUser]

28. Anti-Clarkers are not Clarkies

I hope you're not confusing the term Anti-Clarkers as being misbehaving Clarkies. Rabid anti-Clarkers are actually the ones who attack Clark.

[Renew Deal]

5. Good post.

Well thought out. I never thought of that angle. :yourock:

[RandomUser]

8. Thanks -- I just want Dean supporters to stop saying

that they're voting for Dean because they think Clark makes a good VP. You should never vote for a primary candidate mainly because you think your candidate has a cool VP. Otherwise, you might be in for one big disappointment.

To make an honest choice, think of it as Survivor and you're voting someone off the island. Not an easy choice. But pick who you think is the better candidate, best chance to beat Bush, and fix his foreign policy mess. :)

If you like Dean and he's your guy, that's fine and I respect that. But don't say it's because you like his VP.

[munayman]

7. Dean/Clark, Clark/Dean ticket will never happen

Clark and Dean got into a fight between commercial breaks during the Rock the Vote debate. Clark told Dean to stop saying that he flip-flopped on Iraq because it is completely untrue. Clark said that he was running his campaign by presenting his qualifications (and by seperating his stances from those of Bush's) and NOT by bashing other candidates. If you have to talk down other people to make yourself look better...then you are not good in the first place. (If you notice, Clark has never bashed another candidate). I would have more respect for the other candidates if they did the same. Except for Sharpton....she always says what we are all thinking.

Sharpton - the check's in the mail.

www.clark04.com

If you want to know more about Clark, MSNBC has an embedded reporter with him...you can read what she has to say.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/958041.asp

[annxburns]

9. I don't see any evidence ...

... that Clark and Dean got into a fight. I didn't see anything from the embed's report? Source ....

[RandomUser]

10. I'm not sure

if there was a fight between them. But there was a picture of them pointing fingers at each other and much speculation over it.

Regardless, people who vote for Dean should realize that there's a real chance they will not get Clark. And vice versa. They're not just voting for one candidate, but voting against the chance of having the other on the ticket.

If you're voting for Dean, assume the fact that you won't get Clark. And if one can live with that and believe that to be the stronger ticket, then I respect they're choice. But they should make their choice fully cognizant of this fact.

I personally believe Clark to be more important to the ticket. He's certainly more valuable in any attempt to dethrone Bush. And he's a genuinely good guy with good ideas. He's just what we need, imo. I judge Clark to be the better candidate, especially in this election.

[VolcanoJen]

11. Got a blog link or something to back that up?

We all speculated here, when we saw the "finger-pointing" photo the night of the Rock The Vote forum, but it was just that... speculation.

Who has the goods on what that argument was about?

[RandomUser]

12. No replies from Dean supporters?

I think they need to see this. They shouldn't say they're picking Dean because based on fuzzy logic. If they pick Dean, it should be from an honest decision that they can stand not having Clark on the ticket. Saying someone is "running for VP" has always been a way to marginalize candidates, and I've seen this argument used on Clark.

If you pick Dean, assume you won't get Clark. Because if Clark was that important, you would vote for him.

They may yet pair up, but don't base your vote on it. That would be fuzzy logic.

Please keep this kicked so that all the people hoping for a Dean/Clark ticket (which seems to be more than the ones hoping for Clark/Dean ticket) get a chance to see this.

They should make a choice facing the honest logic, harsh though it is. Can they stand not to have Clark on their ticket? Do they think that would be a stronger ticket?

Please keep this kicked till all of them see this. This point has not been made with many of them. And there has been zero response from them in this thread so far.

[RandomUser]

13. Kick -- where are the Dean supporters? (n/t)

no text

[Petrodollar Warfare]

15. I'm a Dean/Clark supporter..but Dean has the ground troops...

...and the money and the momentum (especially with this week's huge union endorsements), whereas Clark has the gravitas and the national security credentials. I have absolutely no problem with a President Wesley Clark, and sometimes I wish that Clark had started campaigning early this year, had 400,000+ supporters and $25 million dollars. If the election becomes one solely on national security, Clark can win it easier than Dean. I suspect the economy will be the #1 issue though.

From my perspective, the reality is that Clark entered rather late, and Dean has so much momentum that I can not conceptulize how Clark could catch up to Dean's massive on-the-gound organization and huge money advantage. Therefore I think Dean will win the nomination overall (Clark should win SC, and a few other states, and the tide could change to him, but that may not be enough). So, here's my opinion - Dean will win NH, Iowa, gatherinbg much momentum and probably win the nomination too. However - I doubt he can win in the *general* election without Clark as the VP. I also think Howard Dean and his campign know this. Perhaps Graham will be the VP pick, but I hope not, Wesley is far superior where Dean needs support - naitonal security. (Many people voted for Bush for similar reasons, they saw VP Cheney as the 'wise statesman' who would guide Dubya's with his lack of foreign policy experience - what a nightmare that turned out to be...)

Anyhow, I appreciate your post, but unless Dean REALLY REALLY screws up within the next 60 days, I can't see how Clark could catch-up in time. Again, I think the only way to beat Bush is a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean ticket, and even though sometimes I would prefer the later, I suspect the former is much more realistic given the abovementioned issues/facts. The bottom line, our country will be so much better off with either Dean or Welsey in charge that I will happily support either one, and if the economy stalls out in early-mid 2004 as I expect, Bush will be vulnerable to either challenger.

[HFishbine]

22. Maybe

we're not playing because we don't like the choices.

[poskonig]

18. Dean/Clark may be stronger than Clark/Dean

Dean/Clark may be stronger than Clark/Dean, but this does not imply that Dean is a stronger candidate than Clark. Clark by himself may be able to go head-to-head against Bush without Dean. Meanwhile, with Dean/Clark one gets Dean's organization, fundraising, campaigning experience, a skilled political team, et cetera, and a general who's stance on the war closely dovetails what Dean believes.

Would I rather have Dean-Clark than Dean-Graham or Dean-Landrieu? Certainly. Any of the frontrunners should be able to campaign against Bush well, though a rebounding economy may make all of this irrelevant, especially if Bush gets the bodybags under control.

I wouldn't underestimate the cleverness of the Dean campaign nor Bush's superhuman ability to mess things up that are going well. However, all things being equal, current events look very auspicious for the Republicans.

[RandomUser]

23. But you are not voting for Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean

That is the point. Assume the worse case scenario, that you will have only one of them on the ticket. Who would you choose? If that person is Dean, I respect your choice. But don't base it on having the other guy as a VP.

My point is that you're choosing between Dean and Clark, not Dean/Clark and Clark/Dean. Assume you only get one, who is the stronger ticket? If you choose Dean, that's fine. But at least make it on a honest choice, not on fuzzy logic that you would necessarily get the other as VP.

[poskonig]

25. Here's how I'm looking at it.

Can candidate 'x' defeat George Bush? This is a necessary condition for me to support someone, but not a sufficient condition.

Then I look at how the ideas line up. Why do I do this? Zell Miller may be able to defeat George Bush, along with Gephardt, Kerry, and the gang, but I'd rather vote 3rd party than vote for Miller. Then I look at personal characteristics. Given this, I'm comfortable with Dean as the nominee.

Clark as a VP would be a bonus for Dean, since Clark helps him with credibility on the Iraq issue. If he actually is a good and loyal Democrat, as his supporters claim he is, I expect him to be the VP.

If not, he was probably a Republican after all, and I'd be confident in whoever Trippi and company get on board for the VP spot. They would have a lot of solid choices.

Nobody is losing sleep over this.

[FrenchieCat]

26. Again I say....

I'LL TAKE ONE BAD ASS 007 CLARK PANTHER IN THE BLACK, PLEASE

[RandomUser]

14. Kick e/o/m

:kick: end of message

[unfrigginreal]

16. Exactly!

You are deciding who you can live with not being on the ticket.

That's why I support Dean.

[damnraddem]

17. I don't want Clark to be prez candidate. I support Dean.

Clark would work as VP candidate because he has a military record. I don't like him on issues, particularly the Invasion of Iraq. I just think he would help Dean get elected -- and then I would say an agnostic's prayer that Dean would finish out his term or terms.

[many a good man]

19. I doubt Dean will play second fiddle

I don't think Dean or Kerry would accept a VP bid, whereas Clark and Edwards probably would. Does anyone disagree?

I see Dean/Clark or Kerry/Clark or Clark/Edwards as extremely compelling tickets. A good argument can be made that at least one running mate should be from Congress.

[Speck Tater]

20. I should point out that the same logic applies...

...if you have your heart set on a Lieberman/Kucinich or a Kucinich/Lieberman ticket. ;)

[maha]

21. Flip a coin?

Are there people who are confused about how a candidate gets to be second on the ticket?

The Veep candidate is chosen, not elected by primary. Whoever gets the nomination will go through some mysterious process involving chicken bones and a Ouija Board, and then will announce who the Veep candidate will be, and there's not a whole lot anyone else has to say about it. The eventual veep candidate may or may not be one of the nine candidates running for Prez now.

Another way to put that is that the primary results will probably have little or no bearing on who the veep choice will be.

In the primaries, vote for the guy you most want to be president. If you can't decide between Dean and Clark, flip a coin.

[killbotfactory]

24. Can we just call them the dynamic duo?

And Bush is the joker...