Clark is Better than Dean -- Points of Difference

[Bread and Circus]

First off, I will admit I have been on a rampage
"against Dean" -- But I think I have good reason.

It all boils down to winning the White House, which
is very important for many reasons:

1.) The GOP controls all the levers of power
including the Presidency, the Senate, the House,
the Judiciary, the media, and most importantly
the money. Now is not the time to "gamble" on winning.

2.) The GOP seeks to roll back Roe v. Wade (and I bet
their time table is within 6 to 8 years). The recent
ban on late term abortions is evidence of the slippery
slope starting to take grade.

3.) The GOP will seek to paint our party, yet again, as
the party that "can't defend the country and its
citizens from harm". That makes it harder to win
all elections and forces us to do dumb things like
stand in Rose Gardens. 30 more years of that is not cool.

4.) The GOP is seeking a "mandate" to roll back all of
the progress of "The New Deal" and equity issues
improved during the 20th century (for minorities,
women, labor, etc.)

5.) The GOP seeks to erase barriers between Christian Fundamentalism
and the levers of power. They have already done so,
your tax dollars are already going to Pat Robertson.

----

If the economy shows any signs of life come summer and
fall 2004, the media will continue to spin any shred
of improvement as justification for the tax giveaway to
the bloated rich.

If the Iraq War shows any sign of progress (meaning
troops come home), the media will spin it as a major
victory for Bush and a testament to his "courage".

----

If either or both of those conditions occur, Dean will
have even less chance of beating Bush and the reason
is that in the eyes of the electorate there will be
no point of difference other than party
lines. The reason being is that you can't clearly
distinguish Dean from Bush on other "intangible issues".

However, under the same scenario Clark would at least
have half a chance against Bush because he is a clear
choice over Bush. Here's the points of difference I
think we need to consider:

------------------Bush-----------Dean------------Clark

Military Service--AWOL-----------went skiing-----4 bullets/4 stars
Education --------MBA------------MD--------------Valedict/Rhodes Schol
Drugs-------------Coke and Etoh--Pot and etoh----none
Patriotism--------Fake-----------???-------------34 years of service
Southern Votes----yes------------no--------------yes
FP experience-----yes------------no--------------yes
Work w/ Allies----no-------------maybe-----------yes (proven)
Background--------Silver Spoon---Silver Spoon----Middle Class
Smear as liberal--N/A------------Yes-------------No
Prof. Politician--Yes------------Yes-------------No
Stance on War-----ideological----ideological-----measured/balanced
Speaking Style----Remedial-------Snarky/agitated-Calm/articulate
---

If in the case that Dean wins the nomination, which I think
is highly likely, and the Bush Admin. can spin perception
of improvements in the economy and the war, what can
Dean run on to win swing votes and swing states? That's
what I can't really come to terms with and that is
why the prospect of a Dean nomination scares me.

I know I am being biased. I recommend people play
out some scenarios in their mind and see what they come
up with. I may very well be wrong.

---

Right now, Dean tends to come in last vs. Bush in the polls
but I think the polls cannot be really trusted in a head
to head at this point. First off, to really get an
understanding we would need to see polls parsed out in
the swing states, especially the ones in the South. Secondly,
the right wing is "holding back" on Dean and even giving
him a lot of positive press (Just google the right wing
rags Washington Times, Newsmax, NY Post for Dean and you'll see)
whereas they have been on an all out assault on Clark. Once the
smoke clears and Dean is left standing, you will see a massive
assault which will make our heads spin w/ outrage. They will
do that to every nominee but I think they already shot
their wad on Clark:

1.) His late entrance to the race will not be a factor in the GE
2.) His non-partisanship past, though a disadvantage now, will
be a huge bonus in the GE
3.) Smears by Shelton have already seen their day and when
people see Clark, the impression he leaves and Shelton's
bitterness will be seen to be incongruent. Shelton has
already been discredited by the NY review of books.
4.) Clark's nuanced approach to foreign policy and the Iraq
war will seem less ideologically driven than that of Bush

They really don't have much on Clark -- Praising Republicans
and having a PNAC MIC General carping about you is hardly
a "high crime and misdemeanor". If they had more, they would
have shared it by now.

Clark strikes at the very heart of the GOP's strategy:
Bush wrapping himself in the flag, hiding behind the troops,
and perpetuating a culture of fear. Clark can take those
props away.

---

Imagine for a minute that Dean wins the nomination and
is up against Bush. Now imagine how you would sell
Dean to someone on the fence. If the war is perceived
as "ok" and the economy is "doing better" how can you
sell him? I will leave that to the Dean supporters
here to add...and I look forward to the reply.

On the other hand, imagine the same scenario except
trade Clark for Dean. How can you sell Clark and let
those on the fence know that they have a clear choice?
First you can start with Bush's AWOL status and how
that reflects his poor integrity. Then you can easily
remind them that Clark served honorably for 34 years
sustained multiple gunshot wounds and climaxed as SACEUR.
The choice can be made very clear quite easily. It's
like shooting fish in a barrel.

Yes, I know, I am using the same "wrapping ourselves
in the flag" approach to some degree. But guess what...
It works, obviously (it's partly why we have
slipped out of power since the 1970's). Patriotism
and service to country are really vehicles to garner
trust. We can bring the American electorate to the realization
that we are the party they can trust. I think Clark
helps us do that. With Dean, I am not convinced. Actually,
I think Dean would have the opposite effect.

Many here will say "I don't trust Clark" and that is fine.
That is your perogative. I personally trust him more
than Dean but that is totally subjective. But it is not just
about who you trust it is about what you "trust them with".

I would trust Dean with my medical care a lot more than Clark.
However, I trust Clark with National Security much more than
Dean. I think Americans in general will feel the same.
I also trust him with the message of "what America is
all about" more than Dean. I think Americans in general
will the same about this as well.

It is my hope that this race comes down to Clark and
Dean. I further hope our party takes a long hard long
at both candidates and a long hard look at ourselves.
If the will of the people has Dean represent us, I will
campaign for him, contribute money, and stand up to
be counted. I want to win. I want to make things right.
I am just from the school of mind that we will do much
better with Clark at the helm and therefore will continue
to support him.

[camero]

1. Nah.Kucinich/Clark or Clark/Kucinich

Good Cop/Bad cop ticket. Two angry people will not win it.

[Deja Q]

69. I like that idea!!

:D

[Rowdyboy]

2. As a dedicated Dean supporter could I beg you to please

chill just a little. Many Clark supporters consider Dean their second choice. Others have recently shifted towards Clark and a full frontal assault does nothing to make new people feel welcome.

Persuasive? Sure. Overbearing and on a rampage? Please...

BTW you are one of the first fellow Clark supporters I saw on this board and I really apprreciated your strong advocacy.

[Bread and Circus]

4. This is about winning the election and the future....

If you disagree with my analysis that's fine.
I put a lot of work and thought into this.

I hate to "turn people off to Clark" if I seem like
a jerk but with the media going so gaga over Dean (which
I think is a plot) I feel like I have to put my thoughts
out somewhere.

I am not really on a rampage, but I at least want to acknowledge
that I have been arguing "against Dean" and that I am no saint.

I don't expect people to like me, but I just want them to
see the writing on the wall.

I may be just full of it anyway but this is how I see it.

[Rowdyboy]

11. I agree with your analysis

Its obvious you put a plenty of time into it. And I hadn't seen any evidence of a "rampage" on your part-I was just taking your word for it my friend...If you were exaggerating, I apologise. But I have seen others who do "rampage" on different candidates and its very off-putting. Their anger makes me dislike the candidate they represent.

As long as we argue issues and facts about candidate records, thats fine. Immaterial as to whether people like you or not. The fact remains, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Bread and Circus]

17. True, true, true....

"As long as we argue issues and facts about candidate records, thats fine. Immaterial as to whether people like you or not. The fact remains, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

I know my post is risking a candidate war. But I felt
I couldn't hold it in....

[Rowdyboy]

57. You go, boy!

Sometimes you just can't hold your enthusiam in! Didn't intend to rain on your parade...the analysis was excellent and I loved the Bush-Dean-Clark breakdown. Keep it up.

[dsc]

64. You certainly have helped turn this person off to Clark

It is sad you have a pretty good candidate apparently but instead all you do is trash Dean. You gave me not one issue related reason to vote for your man in your entire post. Yeah that turns me off.

On edit. I will, if Clark wins the nomination, vote for him and put his signs in my yard. But I will not work with any Clark supporters so that rules out call centers and the like. Kerry supporters have done the same thing to me in regards to Kerry. I assume that supporters here are at least somewhat similar to supporters who are not here and thus I have no interest in working with supporters of Clark or Kerry if I had to do so in the same room. You are one of the chief reasons that is true in regards to Clark.

[drfemoe]

70. I don't think I will

at this point I'm thinking if Dean is not the nominee, I will vote for a third party or not at all.

Does that mean I'm willing to participate in 'allowing' four more years of bushmanship? Yep.

I am so revolted and disgusted with the anti-Deaners and their obsession with painting him as a liar, racist, rage-a-holic, white bread elitist, draft dodger, flip-flopper, condescending, rnc darling, dishonest, panderer, liberal, moderate, centrist, small time governor ...

which is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo very different than the way I perceive the man .. why the hell would I trust 'them' to make this decision of whom I vote for?? .. Since I don't believe anyone else in the field can surpass his performance, why would I cast my lot with them? Either this nation is ready for someone who wants to and can make real changes in people's lives, or we are not. Radical change is coming one way or the other. You already know that.

Please feel free to call me close-minded, but the mood I'm in now . not gonna do it .

edit: by the by .. I'll tell you, I miss Clinton .. but if you do a little research into some of the obscene court cases and police raids of late, you will see that a lot of these legislative jewels permitting these actions (Tommy Chong) were passed on Clinton's watch. Rhodes Scholar does not equal preserving our freedoms.
2nd edit: also want to point out my position is not Dean's. He has said he will support whoever is the nominee.

[dsc]

73. I do hope you change your mind on this

The last person on earth who would want us to let bitter feelings elect Bush is Howard Dean. If nothing else consider it a vote against all those awful judges Bush appoints.

[boxster]

83. Who is running for president here? The candidates' supporters are not

running, unless I missed a memo.

Vote for the candidate, not their supporters.

Besides, Dean isn't the only candidate getting heavily criticized on DU, and other candidates (Lieberman, for example) get called worse names than Dean ever has, so let's try to have some perspective here, please. I find it interesting that many Dean supporters seem to think he should be somehow immune from criticism or that everyone else should just leave him alone.

No offense, but if you can't handle the criticism of your candidate, it might be a good time to find somewhere else to hang out, because I can guarantee that it's going to get worse before it gets better. Politics is politics and the criticism now is only the beginning. If you don't like it now, you certainly won't like it if he wins the nomination and Bush starts throwing millions at ads beating Dean up.

[drfemoe]

84. Memo

I am so revolted and disgusted with the anti-Deaners and their obsession with painting him as a liar, racist, rage-a-holic, white bread elitist, draft dodger, flip-flopper, condescending, rnc darling, dishonest, panderer, liberal, moderate, centrist, small time governor ...

I'm not talking about DU supporters. Good grief. I'm talking about the CANDIDATES. If THEY weren't doing it, do you think there would be so many stinky bombs here on DU?

I don't have a problem with criticism, debate or other people's opinions. I don't even agree with all the Dean supporters I know on every issue.

But I do have a large issue with people who would try to manipulate me with emotional distractions and twisted nuance and pounding on a guy I happen to have a lot of respect for.

If anyone is prepared for mission rove in this race, it is Howard Dean ... and his supporters.

[boxster]

82. I, for one, plan to vote for the candidate, not his/her supporters.

Summarily dismissing all of Clark's supporters because of one (or all, for that matter) supporter on DU is misguided, at best.

Frankly, it seems a little ridiculous.

If I were to judge Dean based on some of his supporters on DU, there is no way on Earth that I would vote for him. However, I understand that his supporters are not running for President; he is. I plan to make my choice based on the actions and stances of the candidates, not his/her supporters.

[FrenchieCat]

3. I too hold the same belief....That Clark is better....and that Dean

It's a gamble that I just cannot contemplate. If Bush gets 4 more years, this country will be ravaged beyond recognition. And I believe that Dean will not win against Bush.

The Republican Convention is to be held on New York. The closing day of the convention is 9/11/04. That's the day the fake pResident will give the big hurrah speech. Remember that this is less than two months prior to the election. Historically, a convention tends to bumps up the positive percentage points of that party. We all know that the propaganda will be thick and heavy with Bush/Rove speak.
I have written the speech that Bush might give on that convention floor, if Dean gets the Dem nomination:
The speech will go something like this:

(Imagine it with his bad tx southern accent)
We have been fighting this War on Terror three years exactly today. We continue to pray for those who perished on 9/11. We pray for their family and thank them for the lives of their brave sons and daughters. We pray for the firemen and policemen who's heroic efforts shall never be forgotten. We will never forget, and that's why we took the fight to the enemy. We are safer because the fight is going on over there instead of over here.

The Democrats want to be in charge on this War on Terror. Howard Dean, who has no foreign policy experience, and never saw military service, wants to take the baton from me. He said that he has as much experience as I did when I was first elected. After 9/11, is that who the American people want to take over the War on Terror?(Bush snickers with his imfamous smirk) Dean wanted Saddam to continue to torture and kill the Iraqi people. He didn't want us to uphold America's responsibility to the world. He thinks that Iraq was better off under the terroristic evil dictatorship called Saddam Hussein. You have seen the reports on the mass graves. Dean obviously didn't. Dean didn't want the terrorist to come to Iraq to fight. He wanted them to stay in America and kill innocent Americans again, just like they did on 9/11.

But more than that, Howard Dean also wants to raise your taxes. Yes, raise taxes on each and everyone of you. A Tax and Spend Democrat wants to do what they have always done; grow the government and waste your hard earned money.

Now I know that we have to win this war, to give what we promised to the Iraqis people. We have to give them freedom and democracy, that was our promise, and I intend to fulfill that promise. Today we have 100,000 Iraqis bringing security to Iraqis. We have to stay in there until the job is done, otherwise the Middle East will have only learned that our resolve means nothing. Howard Dean wants to cut and run. He wants to pander to the U.N. and make America look weak.
On the domestic front, do you want a President who has been making the tough decisions for the last 4 years or do you want Dean? The guy who comes from a state that has as many residence as this city of New York has people of Puerto Rican descent. 600,000 people folks. That's what he calls experience (Bush does his sinister snicker, the crowd laughs). I say to Howard Dean, Maybe if it was at least 1 million people that would give us some concern (another joke)! Does Vermont even have a National Guard?.(more laughter)...oh yea, I think there are six or seven guys over there protecting the borders from out of state attackers.(wild applauds).

(Bush gets serious and sober) I want to keep serving for the American people, for the brave folks that are serving in our military. Don't let them have died in Vain. Ms. Smith over there please stand up. Yes Ms. Smith lost her son in the war. She says that her son died for Democracy and Freedom. You are right Ms. Smith, your son died a hero to return humanity and dignity back to millions of Iraqi men, women and children (wild applause, Ms. Smith bows and sits down).

(Bush sobers off after beaming smiles and nodding his head to thank the crowd for their applause)The evildoers are on the run. We've got them where we want them. If we stop now, if we lose our resolve, who knows what will happen. Next, Iran will be developing Nukes and threatening us. So a vote for Howard Dean will not make us more secure, at home or abroad. (Bush squints and slowly says)Howard Dean doesn't know how to keep America safe, he'll have to learn. After 9/11, America can't afford a President that has to go to training classes.

Under my leadership, we haven't had another attack here in the U.S., and that says a lot about the great team that I assembled. We will win the War on terror for the sake of those innocent lives taken on 9/11 and for the sake of our children. We will win the war on terror for the sake of Freedom and Democracy. We will win the election because only we can make you safe.

The economy is looking good. I promised you that my tax cuts really would work. We have a ways to go, but we will get there. Howard Dean? Well he wants to raise the taxes of each and every hard working American. He wants the big wasteful bureaucracy to decide what to do with your money. Can we afford that in America? As patriots, we have all already sacrificed much too much. Look at Ms. Smith over there. Should she be asked to add injury to pain?
As real cowboys have said, don't change horses in the middle of the stream. Especially if the replacement horse is a donkey.(wild laughter and applause).

Well folks, we are in that stream now. A nice a steady course will get us across.

God Bless all of you and God Bless America.

[knight_of_the_star]

24. Well put

I would LOVE to see him TRY to pull off the same thing against Clark. That and by waiting for 9/11 it gives Clark (or whoever) time to take shots at Bush about "exploiting a national tragedy." Clark would be the best man for doing this though.

[quinnox]

26. This is exactly the kind of thing Bush would say

And they would shred Dean to pieces using these arguments. Dean's lack of military service in a post 9/11 world, with Bush playing the terror card at every step, while Dean runs on an obscure record of an insignificant state, well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what would happen. And I didn't even mention another point made in the post, the "Dean will raise taxes" campaign commercials is another killer.

[Donna Zen]

43. Whoa and bingo!

First let me say that--and I think I speak for all of us--that speech is a rovian lie which miscasts Dean's positions. Nevertheless, however much we may want to deny it, we know it will be given. BTW, there are a few barbs that have been left out, but who's counting?

Yes, they will go after Clark, who has said that this election is about "how much pain you can take." He has lost friends who consider it wrong to speak against the resident during a time of war (how does that apply in a never-ending war!?! dunno) and he has completely quit every job he had. He is officially unemployed, something not one congress critter has to do. He is ready to fight the regime, and he believes in winning modern wars.

NOTE: the economy will be turned up...at least until Nov. 2004. Think inventory---think who controls the $$$ and hiring. The war will be off limits to the American public...even if the conflict is a thousand times worse than it is today. So factor in those two thoughts, because you can take it to the bank.

[michaelbmoore]

5. 'Nuff Said

About how the RW is looking forward to a Dean nomination:

WILLIAM SAFIRE: I don't suggest he is finished because frankly I'm all for Dean. I want to see him become the Democratic nominee because I think that would be a McGovern candidacy. I think that would lead to a Republican landslide. So I'm not knocking Dean for any nefarious --

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/july-dec03/ss_11-07.html

[mmonk]

6. I agree that Clark is the best, but

I don't want to get into a candidate war here. Points of difference are ok. And the two being the final two candidates down the stretch is fine.

[robsul82]

7. Geez...

...some Clarkies we can :toast:, and some still have some deep hatred of Dean that perplexes me greatly. Strange days indeed.

Later.

RJS

[Bread and Circus]

9. It's not hatred....

I just want to win the damn Presidency that's all.

I thought my analysis was cold and consistent with
reality.

If I hated him, I would present a much different argument.

Dean has my support, money, and vote if he wins the nomination.
That's hatred???

Can I catch a break for trying to reason things out?

[FrenchieCat]

13. I see no hatred.....I see concern for this country.....

And for winning these elections. Hatred is a strong word that has not, until your post, been used in this thread. It's ok to agree to disagree. It is not ok to rationalE every objection to a Dean Nomination as hate. I don't hate Dean. I just don't think he can win against *. Now you may think so, and that's ok....but I think that DU boards are available for rational debate....and this is one of them. If someone can write the speech that Bush would give at the 9/11/04 New York Repug convention if Clark won the nomination....and offer what Bush might say that would calvanize the right to Bush, please do so, and I certainly will read it. I won't interpret the meaning of it to mean they Hate Clark. Jeesh.....

I am not a Hater.......my mother told me long ago, DON'T HATE!

[knight_of_the_star]

28. I sense no hatred

Maybe you see any criticism of Dean as being hatred, that's kinda strange indeed...

[TreasonousBastard]

45. No hatred here...

I like Dean, and hope he sticks around on the political scene.

We need people like Dean. He has an energy a lot of our people are missing, and far too much of which is on the other side. I hope there's a place for him somewhere. Maybe even as President some time in the future.

But, as Doc and Frenchie have so eloquently stated-- he's dead meat against the Bush propaganda machine. I don't care how much he's gotten in small contributions or the thousands of converts he's inspired. It's about the 30 or 40 million people he has to convince next year, and he will very likely be eaten alive.

It's too great a risk to take. Clark has the charisma and background to beat Shrub at his own game and it looks like he'd be a pretty good President too.

Win-win all around with Clark.

[slinkerwink]

8. that's right...keep spinning while...

Dean takes the nomination in Nov.2004.....

[Bread and Circus]

10. You're right, Dean make take the nomination....

So if being smug is what you care about, have at it.

[Larkspur]

18. Clarkies are like the Tazmanian Devil

They spin in their own vitrol against Dean while Dean races straight ahead to the nomination.

Dean is a superior campaigner than Clark and it shows. Clark entered with a media hyped bubble. Dean's campaign paused a moment until Clark's campaigning incompetence popped his media hyped bubble.

We will need Dean's and Trippi's expert campaign skills to guide our nominee, Dean, into the White House. Already they are planning ads attacking Bush's aircraft carrier landing photo op. Dean will be on the offensive against Bush before Rove sees the advertisement torpedoes hitting the G.W. Bush-mark(Bush + Bismark, the WWII destroyer).

[_NorCal_D_]

36. ROFLMAO!

Clarkies are like the Tazmanian Devil, they spin in their own vitrol against Dean while Dean races straight ahead to the nomination.

I would argue that it is you Dean supporters that are particularly nasty and mean-spirited.

Familydoctor has merely presented facts, and all you can do is accuse him of spewing vitriol?

[Bread and Circus]

46. If there is any argument FOR Dean, you have hit the nail...

on the head.

Him and Trippi have really kicked ass this year.
Also, Dean seems to be made of teflon and I am
not sure why.

So, my analysis needs to be qualified by your very
excellent point!

[KittyWampus]

75. Dean's Teflon= Complaint Media Doing Rove's Work

For now the media and Rightwing pundits push Dean and he seems to have Junior's Teflon... Heaven forbid he get the nomination- that Teflon will evaporate like mists before the sun.

[Cogito]

49. Not listening

Dean's supporters believe that "Clarkies...spin in their own vitriol." They are not listening and instead choose to believe that the supporters of other candidates are simply bitter. FamilyDoctor I am sure shares the general anger towards Bush but he recognizes that white-hot Democrats are NOT the swing voters in this election. We need a candidate who will speak to and for swing voters.

We Democrats should remember the lyrics from West Side Story
Boy, boy, crazy boy.
Stay loose, boy!
Breeze it, buzz it, easy does it.
Turn off the juice, boy!
Go, man, go.
But not like a yo-yo
Schoolboy
Just play it cool, boy,
Real cool!

Dean is not playing it cool. We need someone who can.

[_NorCal_D_]

66. That is a

'cool' way of thinking about it. B-)

I think that a few Dean supporters often forget that we are all on the same team. On occasion they show as much contempt for rival candidates as we all do for Shrub n' friends!

[Cogito]

58. actually

Look at this from the Harris poll:

How would you describe your own political philosophy -- conservative, moderate or liberal?
Moderate 40%
Conservative 35
Liberal 17

Rove wants an election contest between Conservatives and Liberals with everyone else too disgusted to participate. The poll shows why. Democrats who want to win want an election in which moderates vote with us rather than stay home or vote for Bush.

Dean's approach, particularly post Clark has been to lurch to the left and challenge everyone as not being enough of a Democrat. Running as a hard-assed liberal from the "Democratic wing of the Party" plays perfectly into Rove's strategy. I think this is what FamilyDoctor is getting at.

[KittyWampus]

74. You Are Mistaking Vitriol For Cognizance

of realities....

And there is nothing more niave than a Dean Supporter... like the ones who were posting on a thread about how Dean has "Teflon" just like Junior.

A big factor in Dean's "racing ahead" is that he's lied about his record and the other candidate's records and the media isn't calling him on it YET.

"already they are planning ads attacking Bush's aircraft carrier landing photo op"

LOL :D Don't you think EVERY Dem candidate has thought that one up?

[knight_of_the_star]

27. That's rich

Talking about US spinning when we present the facts while it was DEAN who spun HIS position as anti-war and Kerry's as pro-war when they both have the IDENTICAL POSITION regarding Iraq.

[quinnox]

12. Dean and the Titanic

The analysis is spot on, Clark would be a vastly better choice than Dean as the one to go vs Bush.

Dean reminds me of the Titanic, a boat that had a lot of promise at the beginning but turned out to be a disaster of epic proportions. This describes the Dean as nominee saga perfectly.

This should be avoided, it's not the time to have yet another McGovern-Dukakis-Mondale and now Dean lead the Democrats to another defeat.

[FrenchieCat]

15. I agree....

Loyalty is one thing.....but not to connect the dots using evident insight is quite another.

[robsul82]

16. Quinnox, you and the Titanic thing...

...is beginning to be like Gephardt's "miserable failure" soundbite. Give it a rest. You use it 8 billion times. It's OVER.

Later.

RJS

[IranianDemocrat]

81. Beautiful post.

.

[slinkerwink]

14. uh...Dean has a fused vertabrae and was rejected by the brass 'cuz of that

I know many people with fused vertabrae that can do stuff like skiing and do heavy tasks. Dean just can't bend his back very well. Skiing is something he can do because it's an upright posture. Please stop insinuating he's a draft dodger because he's not.

Dean does not live like he has a silver spoon in his mouth. He lives in a modest two-story home with his family, and recycles the newspaper and mows his own lawn. There goes the silver spoon theory. Dean's present situation helps him identify with us, and he doesn't even have cable.

[Bread and Circus]

47. You said Draft Dodger, I didn't.....

You see, that's the point...I don't think
Dean's a draft dodger at all. It's just that the
fact that he went skiing so soon after a medical
deferment can be easily spun. That's what I am talking
about -- you can't call Bush on his AWOL if our
guy went skiing but you can if our guy was shot in
the 'nam but continued to command the firefight and stayed
in the military after his "million dollar wounds".

I'll admit, I am being super hard on Dean...we are
engaged and it is in that engagement period we better
look damn hard before we get married next March.

I don't believe that everything in my chart is fact,
I just think this is how the candidates would be
perceived by your average swing voter. We know we
are going to get the democratic voters, but we need
to get the Independents and some of the Republicans
to insure victory.

[PVnRT]

72. That is the implication of your statement

Whether you like it or not, it comes out sounding like you're calling Dean a draft-dodger. As for the skiing, what kind of skiing was he doing? Downhill or cross-country? If C-C, that's basically just exercise, hell, it may have been part of his rehab. At any rate, I doubt his back would've been strong enough to carry 50-75 lbs. of stuff on his back, not to mention a rifle, through steaming Vietnamese jungles while being shot at.

[drfemoe]

76. so when is Clark going to call him on awol??

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[dkf]

77. Forget that silver spoon stuff. Dean is absolutely down to earth

His not exactly silver spoon behaviors include:

Dean paints his own house.

When getting a ride in a nice new Audi (?) he said his son would love to get a car like that but Paul is going to have to wait to buy it with his own money.

After the highly successful sleepless summer tour, the first thing he did when he got home was to do his own laundry! Dr. Judy says he washed a few shirts that he should have taken to the cleaners.

During one of his speeches as Gov or Lt Gov, he had child care duties, so he did his speech with his daughter hiding under the podium while he spoke.

In one of the "on the road" posts, Kate O'Conner wrote about how the Dean crew were trying to fly home from one of the debates (Arizona?), but got directed because of bad weather to 2 other states, had to sleep in airports, eventually landed at another airport where they had to catch a ferry over Lake Champlain. After hours spent trying to get home, Dean insists on trying to find his free ferry pass in his wallet and searches and searches for it but can't find it. Trippi, Trish and Kate vote to buy the Gov a ticket so they can leave!

Here is a cut from "Howard Dean, Hockey Dad"
http://deanforschenectady.com/hockey.html

But neither his executive title nor the length of his commute kept Dean from fulfilling his hockey-parent obligations. “I may be the only presidential candidate in the nation who drove the hockey and soccer team carpools every week,” Dean told the Coalition of Essential Schools in a November 2002 speech. That's no empty boast, according to parents whose children carpooled with Dean. Mike Morin of Colchester has a daughter, Jessica, who played with Dean's daughter Anne on the elite North American Hockey Academy team in Stowe. “No matter where we were going — Hanover, Glen Falls, wherever — he was great about bringing other kids along,” says Morin.

In fact, Dean took some flack from environmentalists over his choice of vehicles: a less-than-fuel-efficient ’89 Chevy Blazer. But the former governor makes no apologies about his gas-guzzling ride. “Well, I drive an SUV. Naughty, naughty,” Dean told Grist magazine in June. “But I have two children who play hockey and soccer, and there was no way I could do without a seven- or eight-passenger car.”

And with Bush's foreign and domestic agenda having a rough season, whoever takes over next in the West Wing will need to know a thing or two about multi-tasking, a skill Dean has apparently mastered. “Howard was always there to help out with anything that needed to be done,” Morin adds. “He came to practices, he came to all the games, he was always active with working the penalty boxes. And, of course, it was great having him there as a doctor just in case any of the players got injured.”

--That is what I like about Howard Dean. He was born to a rich WASP family who expected him to go to Wall Street where he probably would have been set for life. Instead he leaves Wall Street for Med school, moves to Vermont, marries a nice Jewish girl, becomes a Governor/Hockey Dad and eventually a Presidential candidate who can do laundry!

Silver spoon? Hah!

[dansolo]

19. Why not both?

My ideal ticket would be Dean/Clark, but I would go for Clark/Dean. I think they complement each other very well, and if they were to combine their efforts, they should be able to clobber Bush.

[mmonk]

23. yeah

I prefer Clark/Dean but any combination intrigues me vs. Bush.

[Bread and Circus]

50. I would be for that for sure....

I don't dislike Dean through and through.
He's done and said some dumb things. Clark has
said and done some dumb things (like wear Mladic's
hat). This is not about hatred, this is about winning.

Combining money, resources, expertise and grass
roots would be excellent.

The problem is that both of these guys got super big
egos (they all do) and it would be astounding to me
if they teamed up.

Hell, if they were going to do it, they should just have
a private meeting, flip a coin to see who will be CIC, and
then get on with it. If Dean and Clark decided to pair
up now, there would be no stopping them from getting the
nomination (unless Hillary decided to run -- but I don't
see that happening).

I am not saying that it is my dream to have a Clark/Dean
ticket (or vise versa). I am just saying I would be happy
with it. If both are on the ticket I will give $1,000
($500 for each).

I know in the end, whoever we get we will all be happy with
it and gather around that person. It is in our very nature
to do the arguing we are doing now but once we have a common
goal and a common enemy (Bush), pretty much all of us will
be hugging and all fired up to support the nominee.
I can't wait for that. Psychology
experiments clearly back up what I am talking about.

[Duder]

20. A couple of other points...

Clark record of governing civilians - 0
Clark campaign experience - high school.

[_NorCal_D_]

37. And

this is a bad thing? Personally I would not prefer a career politician who bases a presidential campaign on silly platitudes.

[Duder]

52. Yes, despite your personal preference...

Rookie versus Rove = advantage Bush = bad,imo.

[_NorCal_D_]

65. I terms

of electability, I don't think it's a bad thing. Clark will be seen as an outsider, which will certainly help him with non-partisan and independent voters.

[Bread and Circus]

51. Very good points...

and have to be taken into serious consideration.

Clark does need to PROVE himself on the campaign trail.

[Bread and Circus]

53. And your post alludes to the "trust" issue....

Can we "trust" Clark with our party and its campaign?

I think he will prove himself worthy but he does have work
to do.

Great original point on this.

[MissB]

21. According to your chart, you are questioning Dean's patriotism

Enough said.

[FrenchieCat]

25. You know better than that.....

Until the primaries, there won't be "nuff said". I still want one to address Bush's 9/11/04 Repug Ntl. Convention address. There will be one. What will he say on the 3rd anniversairy of 9/11. Will he and his speech writers nail the coffin on the Democrats. If not, why not? I need some actual response, that are more than two lines, one including "hate of Dean".

Will we get 4 more years of Bush, with a Dean nominee? If not, why not. What will Bush say on 9/11/04 that will not give pause to the ordinary voters?

That is the question.

[knight_of_the_star]

30. We know Bush will be

In spades.

[MasonJar]

22. Dean and Clark

I am on the fence between these two fine candidates, but I too think that Clark would be really hard for Bush to beat. I wish that they could both run together. Being a Kentuckian, I feel reasonably confident that Clark is the one candidate that can win here at this time over Bush. Not only is he a Southerner, but he is also a former 4 star general; there are many bases here. I do not think that Bush is too popular now at Fort Campbell or Ft Knox.

[knight_of_the_star]

29. Here's another comparison

THe Dean campaign has been attacking ALL of the Dem candidates. That's how Dean surpassed Kerry was because of excessive spin and brutal attack politics that Davis would be proud of. Clark has not attacked ANY of the other candidates. His ONLY criticism has been for Bush, and he is the ONLY one who has questioned how Bush handled 9/11.

Something to think about.

[FrenchieCat]

31. and Clark is the only one

that has talked about the Military Industrial Complex.....
and when he says it, the Repugs cannot even say "there goes the whinning Democrats"....they haven't ......

In fact, When Clark speaks, everybody listens. Although the mediawhores are trying to shut him down by attempting to ignore him, it ain't working.

[Skwmom]

32. It's more than 4 more years of Bush.

With Dean as the nominee once they get through with him I believe the Republican hold on Congress will become so strong that the Democratic opposition will be all but silenced. If that doesn't chill you to the bone I don't know what will.

I remember how they painted Gore as such a liar - like it or not they will have a much easier time with Dean. I think many Republicans will return to the fold thinking they will be voting for the lesser of 2 evils. Especially if they get rid of Rummy and bring a new VP on board.

[poskonig]

33. I'm not convinced.

Most the points presented emphasized fluff. To summarize the argument, Democrats are scared of Bush, Clark has a nice bio, Dean does not, therefore I should vote for Clark.

I want someone who at least agrees with me on the issues, and will campaign effectively. Clark may or may not be the guy, but the case for him should include these two points. In addition, bashing Dean does little for the people who are also considering Kerry, who like Clark, has military credentials, a cool bio, but unlike Clark, has been fighting for liberal causes for two decades.

Clinton's personal life sucked, FDR and Kennedy were elitists, et cetera, but they were all great presidents.

Therefore, I'm unconvinced.

[Donna Zen]

48. Agreed

Kerry is a better candidate than Dean in a general election. Kerry has also been a better liberal. That said, I think Kerry has a harder time than Clark beating bush.

BTW, for those who constantly rant about whether Clark can effectively campaign; have you seen him on the stump?

[Bread and Circus]

56. I'm not trying to convince you.... I'm trying to summarize my...

feelings about the choice we are faced with.

Fluff shmuff....

On the issues, it is practically a wash for all of
the candidates save a few exceptions.

Fluff, as you call it, matters when it comes to your
average person who votes based on their litmus test
issue (like abortion) and their gut reaction (hunch factor).

Again, this thread is about why I think Dean will have
a hard time beating Bush. It will be nearly impossible
to sell him if the perception that the war and the economy
are getting better.

Probably the biggest issue though...and it is one I stupidly
left out...is that Dean promises to raise everyone's
taxes. That is the nail in the coffin that will do us in.

[_NorCal_D_]

34. You have obviously

put a lot of time into this post familydoctor. Well done!

:yourock:

[deutsey]

35. Once I saw your reference to "skiing"

I tuned you out. You should know that Dean reported to the draft board when called but the Army doctor gave him a deferral. Lots of guys in the late '60s would have been doing cartwheels once they were out of sight of the induction center had they received a similar deferral.

[mikehiggins]

38. What's the point?

Unless you are actively out there pounding the streets for your candidate or raising money or showing up at rallies, this is all talk. I like Clark, you like Kerry, the other guy likes Dean, this guy likes Dennis and that guy over there? The wacky looking guy? He likes Big Al.

So what?

I support Clark because I don't see any reason to suspect the rest can make a compelling argument for Voter A to vote for him rather than Bush. Clark is an outsider, his support is grass-roots, he has good ratings in the south, etc., etc., and so forth.

Others have their reasons for supporting their candidates.

Nothing on this DU is going to put one vote in one booth on Primary Day. This is the choir and we're only arguing over what hymn to sing during the services.

So chill it with the animosity. At the end of the day we're going to have to rally behind THE candidate, no matter who he (or she) turns out to be. Otherwise, the anti-Chri, I mean, George Bush, will return to office for four more years and this republic will go down the crapper.

We should be smarter than wallowing in blind partisanship.

[Rowdyboy]

61. mikehiggins...Thank you for stating how I feel

better than I could

[Eloriel]

39. Oh, that's some little chart there. Not TOO biased and

misrepresenting Dean's positions.

Not worth correcting you. I'm flatout of patience with people who purposely misrepresent ANY candidate, but esp. Dean.

Eloriel

[andym]

40. Rove will lie and spin

Rove and company will lie and spin to
character assassinate our candidate.

But, every lie has to have a kernel of
truth. For example, Rove showed
his true talent even more against McCain
than Gore. His push polling included
charges "McCain was a stoolie for his captors in the Hanoi Hilton (this from a lunatic self-promoting Vietnam "veteran"); McCain fathered a black daughter out of wedlock (a despicable reference to McCain's adopted Bangladeshi daughter)....
from http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1101.html

Dean will be attacked on many grounds. But mainly they'll portray
him as an arrogant unstable hothead. That way every
angry counterattack that Dean will launch can be used as
"proof." They'll also attack him as dishonorable and
unpatriotic for attacking Bush. Plus through more indirect venues they'll invent gross exaggerations as per McCain.

Clark will be characterized as an overambitious man who can't be
trusted, playing off his intelligence, since obvious intelligence
is distrusted in America (Shelton etc). His nuanced mind
will be used against him, as it tends to prevent reduction of ideas
to simple political bromides. To the extent they can they'll try to make him General Ripper-- again using more indirect venues they'll invent gross exaggerations as per McCain. However, there will be less opportunity to characterize him as unpatriotic.

So there are two keys to winning given either Dean or Clark:

First, is to establish a strong positive persona in the American
culture before the general election. This requires acting
likeable in popular venues like Leno/letterman/Oprah and making
a strong impression like Clinton did.

Second, is to destroy the false stereotype of Bush as an honest
man.

So given that both of these men are smart candidates, willing
to battle Bush and are promoting progressive policies, the choice
will come down to which one, if any can create the strong
positive persona in the minds of apolitical America.

My suspicion is that Clark may be better than Dean at this,
but we'll see. Because it will be important to come
across as warm (but not soft) in these apolitical venues.

[mvd]

41. Although I like Dean more..

I've been thinking that Clark may be the better candidate - he seems to have himself together more - and our candidate must be able to withstand their barrage with endurance and the rigorous kind of defense that Clinton had.

[Cogito]

42. Excellent post

Sums up my thinking as well. This election is about winning swing states and Clark is the one most likely to be able to do it.

[Pastiche423]

44. In the most important election

in my lifetime (I was born when Eisenhower was presidnt), voting for a pig in a poke is self destructive.

We need to vote and support the person that knows how to govern and has proven he knows how to govern well. We need to vote and support a person that has already implemented policies that have been proven good for the People.

We direly do not need a pig in a poke.

[Bread and Circus]

55. I see you use the word "govern" as in "governor"

But replace that word with "lead" and "leader" and
replace "governance" with "leadership".

Depending on the phrasology, Clark is no "pig in a poke".

I don't need to go into detail about his successes in
leadership.

The concept of governance and leadership are important --
and needs to be one of the intangibles we skewer Bush with.
He can neither lead nor govern.

[Upfront]

60. Heard Both Men Speak

Have you heard both men speak to a croud? I am not talking about the joke debaits. I have, and Dean can lite it up compared to Clark. I say the people will decide. Clark may get the nod as Deans VP, but would not bet on it. Clark has some strong pts. and Dean also. I think some of your talking pts. against Dean go over the top. Draft doddger, give me a break. Clark seems to now understand that Bush is the one we want to remove, now if some of his loyal fans would get it, we could move on to making our choice in a calm manner.

[Pastiche423]

63. I used the word "govern" as in "govern"

Also as in, governing the citizens of the United States of America. Not as in leading troops for NATO.

The exercises between the two are vastly different, as are the goals.

Describing clark as a pig in a poke is correct. He has not governed or camapigned for a town, city, state or any elective office. He has no history acting on his words that can be examined.

I could have been more acurate, though. I could have said he is a daddy pig in a poke.

[ozone_man]

78. Hit the nail on the head again.

"Also as in, governing the citizens of the United States of America. Not as in leading troops for NATO."

Just as I was cueing up to answer this, you nailed it. Sure Clark would be a good leader for a war, but the kind of leadership I'm looking for is governance. Some really bad economic times are headed this way, big social problems, health care issues. etc. This is the war zone we are fighting in, not Iraq. That's Bush's war to deflect awareness of the real issues.

[FrenchieCat]

59. A pig in a poke

Is only rethoric....and really isn't saying much to the very good debate we have had thus far. To simplify and to boil it down to that comment makes absolutely no sense.

you say: We need to vote and support a person that has already implemented policies that have been proven good for the People.

I say we need to win.

Pie in the sky is good in the head.....but again, as I stated before, to ignore the rational opinions presented by boiling it down to a Pig in a Poke!

I am not impressed that this statement addresses the most important election in American History since the election of Abraham Lincoln.

Pragmatism is the only direct rationale to this election, everything else is bullsh*t. You will not have your Cake and be able to eat it too, except with a Clark win.

[moz4prez]

62. and what is good for the People of Vermont

must be good for the rest of the country

[chaska]

54. A few points:

Several posters have written of how FD characterized some of Dean's points, i.e., skiing. It should be pointed out that this is extremely mild compared with how Rove will characterize these things. FD's characterizations are intended not as attacks necessarily, but instead demonstrate (in extremely mild form, mind you) what Bushco will do to Dean.

Someone above wrote of Dean's political accompishment. I don't generally do this but I can't not do this, the election is at stake....

I just returned from a hiking trip in Vermont. I spent just under two months roaming the state. After my hike I drove around the state. I love Vermont. Always have. I thought about moving up there every day of the trip. So, when I finished the hike I drove to all the largest "cities" in the state, trying to decide where I would like to live if I did move there. I put 'cities' in quotes because there really is only one city in Vermont - Burlington - and IT is pretty small. I was frankly shocked at how tiny these ... towns (truthfully) really are. You could walk through Montpelier, the capitol, end to end in probably a quarter hour. The capitol building itself butts up right against the woods!

When I got home I did some checking - Vermont's population is only about 600,000! That's a medium (?) sized city. Howard Dean is the equivalent of the mayor a medium sized city (okay, maybe a bit of hyperbole there, but not much).

Hate to admit it but Jeb was right. And if you think that Bushco won't make good use of this information, think again.

[LizW]

68. Anticipating Rove's attacks

I keep seeing this as a "reason" to choose Clark over Dean, and I'm baffled. Of course, the Republicans will attack our nominee with a vengeance. This is for all the marbles. If we win, EVERYTHING comes out. People will go to prison. It will make Watergate look like nothing. The Republicans will fight tooth and nail to keep power, and, as we know, they make up the rules as they go along. There is no limit to how low they will go. It won't matter if it's Dean or Clark, they will make stuff up, and it will be bad. I fully expect it to be worse than anything ever thrown at Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Therefore, it doesn't make sense for us to pick our nominee based on Rove's potential attacks. What is important is how able our guy is to neutralize the attacks, get back on message and move on. I see Dean as more able to face the attacks than Clark. This has been said here before. Dean has faced multiple attacks and kept plowing along. He faced some serious opposition when he was governor. I see him as a strong contender in the face of the kind of low, crappy stuff that Rove is going to fling.

[farmbo]

67. Well maybe so. But Dean can whip him to a frazzle!

.................. Dean............. Clark............Bush

Audaciousness...Invented it......Co-opted it.....Huh?

Inspiration... Uplifts millions...Uplifts thousands...Listens to Rush

Leadership...proven persuader...issues orders... Calls Cheney

Principles...chock-full...chock-full... Calls Karl

Oratory...touched with a fire...(yawn) OK... misunderestimated

Fundraising...the best, grassroots...beltway types...felons

Durability... Energizer bunny...check in 3 months...Calls Diebold


Dean wins on the intangibles every time. His whole campaign is geared to energizing the Great Democratic base and he's proved wildly successful at doing just that.

[PVnRT]

71. Dean won't win Southern votes?

Exactly why not? For that matter, a lot of your table has no explanation nor justification. "Maybe" Dean will work with allies? Hasn't he basically said that he would? Isn't that one of his major criticisms over the war in Iraq?

And exactly why is being born into a wealthy family an automatic disqualifier? Not all rich people are assholes. Some actually do care about those less fortunate, don't mind paying higher taxes to support them, and make sure to pass that on to their children.

[regnaD kciN]

79. Personally...

...every time I hear a pro-Clark argument that begins with a variant on "he's a General," I stop reading right there.

The notion that being a retired General will automatically make someone "electable" is highly questionable at best. If military service was an overriding issue, "AWOL" Bush would have been stomped by "Vietnam Vet" Gore. But, in fact, you saw the VFW, American Legion, etc., welcome the AWOL Guardsman with open arms, and smear the Vietnam Vet as "unpatriotic." I see no reason to believe that it will be any different any time in the future.

[Clark Can WIN]

80. Great post Family Doctor

Thank you for articulating it so well.