Do Dean's DU supporters care if the Black vote becomes alienated???

[wndycty]

I felt moved to post this after reading the following thread.

I find it ironic and sad that as of 9:40 PM (central) not one poster is at concerned that Tywon McLamore, who is Black, has no use for Dean. It seems to me that our fellow DU'ers (not necessarily Dean,) do not care how this impacts Dean's support in the African American community as long as you get white southerners (and to think some of Deans DU supporters call Clark a Republican).

Again, I have not criticized Dean for this. I don't think he was wrong but I do not like the way he sad it or how he handled it. My issue is not with Dean, but those of us who would are so thrilled that he is reaching out to southern whites (who may or may not vote for him) despite the fact that he has risked offending the most loyal Democratic constituency. This is very sad. . .over 81 posts in the other thread and not one express concern about how the Black voters may be impacted. I am sure someone will post about Congressman Jackson's support which is supposed to make all good. SAD, SAD, SAD.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=673765
Dean's Flag Remarks Thrill and Repel in South

By DAVID M. HALBFINGER
Published: November 8, 2003

COLUMBIA, S.C., Nov. 6 — Tywon McLamore is 21 and black and has been thinking about putting a Confederate flag sticker on his bumper, to make a statement.

…

But Mr. McLamore has no use for those who fly the flag as a divisive symbol — or for Howard Dean, who stepped into trouble this week by saying he wanted to gain the votes of the rebel-flag-waving crowd.
-snip-

Some selected Responses:

1. Karl Rove meet Joe Trippi

If we are going down in 2004, we are going down fucking fighting to the last goddamn bullet!

Howard Dean has got great big BALLS - and he is not afraid to use them.

Howard Dean is the only leader we have among cowards and sycophants.

4. Have yet to hear of a Southerner

who was turned off by Dean's remarks

61. So you want to do NOTHING to make progress this time around?

Even if it doesn't pay off with a win now, don't make the overtures?

That makes no sense.

[joeybee12]

1. The problem I see is with the article you posted

It was essentially a harmless remark, and taken in its full context, no one would diagree with it.

However, look at what the pimp journalist says: "the rebel-flag-waving crowd." The guy in the article who is pissed, is like most people, they get their news from headlines, and when journalist like this slug are incompetent and try to be sensationalist, you can't address the larger issue that Dean brought up.

[wndycty]

3. So you are saying its the Black voters problem

Not Dean's problem, the poor guy is being mislead by the press.

[TruthIsAll]

70. The blacks will vote for Dean or ABB. You are doing Rove's job for him..

Blacks are not stupid. They are Dems. Dean is a Dem. Just beacuse he misspoke is no reason to think any of the 92% of the blacks who will vote Dem will go to Bush.

[_Jumper_]

76. So you think blacks will vote for anyone with a "D" next to their name?

?

[Skwmom]

125. You are taking the black vote for granted and it's foolish to do so.e/o/m

[AP]

129. Gore decimated union turnout in WV because he sent Tipper to

a union meeting that every candidate since Johnson has attended. Gore went to a meeting of environmentalists that same night.

That single move might have cost him the elections.

Only two demographic groups vote out of proportion to their representation in the population -- unions members and African Americans.

[Skidmore]

110. Exactly...my husband and I were listening to the Dean infomercial type

ads that first aired here in Iowa last night. My husband is African-American. We've followed every candidate debate we could find and caught every article and bit of commentary or interview we could. We both have done a fair amount of fence sitting and I was still engaged in fence-sitting before the interview. My husband, a man who has experienced much discrimination and who fights it even now on his job, decided for Dean after he heard the flag comment. He understood what Dean meant and he told me that he likes Dean's plain speaking as well as his propensity to speak hard truths that no one wants to hear. In fact, he was pretty upset with Sharpton (whom we both greatly respect) for pitching a fit about Dean's remark. The problem is that neither this party nor the Rs really wants to engage in a true discussion of race in this country BECAUSE it is used as a divisive issue to gain votes. I challenge the Democratic party to truly tackle racism. We need to educate those guys in the pick-up trucks (believe me, you see confederate flags in the north too served with heaping helpings, although perhaps more subtle, racism to boot)that inclusiveness means leaving no one out. We need to acknowledge both parties' roles in perpetuating racism and then DO SOMETHING to change the dynamic in which the dialogue can occur. At any rate, this household is now solidly for Dean.

[deutsey]

132. Well, the Democrats in general weren't too concerned with

"the black vote" in 2000, were they, when they did jack shit about the tens of thousands of African Americans who were disenfranchised in Florida?

If African Americans feel alienated from the Democratic Party, it sure as hell cannot be laid at Dean's feet. No one in Congress, from what I recall, stood with the Congressional Black Caucus when they protested what happened in Florida. Aside from campaign rhetoric designed to "fire up" the faithful, hardly anyone in the Democratic Party says anything significant about what happened in Florida.

At least Dean is saying all the votes are going to count this time; I'll take that over the silence of the other white candidates, and certainly over Kerry's remark that we need to get over it.

[Syrinx]

2. yes he does n/t

on edit:

ok then, yes they do.

[wndycty]

4. They sure aren't showing it. . .

They have had a full 81 posts to express their concern and not a peep.

[Syrinx]

16. I don't know enough about Mr. McLamore to address his specific concerns

Governor Dean was trying to be inclusive. If Mr. McLamore really wants what's best for black people (and white people) he would realize this. Dean has already addressed the issue of the divisiveness of the symbol, and apologized for any offense it may have caused. The upcoming election is more important than symbols. It's about the future of this country, not the past, and I think most people, on our side, realize that.

[wndycty]

24. Well...

"If Mr. McLamore really wants what's best for black people (and white people) he would realize this. Dean has already addressed the issue of the divisiveness of the symbol, and apologized for any offense it may have caused."

If Dean is sincere in his out reach to the Black community he could have reached to southern whites without bringing up the Confederate flag. The fact that Dean has had to apologize for this situation is not good for Dean.

[Syrinx]

29. this is one of Dean's well-known weaknesses

That he sometimes gets carried away and engages his mouth before he does his brain. And I agree it's something he needs to work on. But I see it as an unfortuanate side-effect of his passion. And passion is definitely something that we need to kick Bush's ass out of the White House.

[wndycty]

32. My criticism is not of Dean. . .

. . .he owned up to his mistake, but it seems like his supporters on the DU have not.

[Syrinx]

42. well, I don't know what to tell you

I'm not necessarily a "Dean supporter," though I think he would make a fine nominee, and I will support the nominee whoever it is. I agree that Dean needs to reach out to all segments of the American population, white, black, hispanic, Asian, whatever. The main thing is we've GOT to beat Bush (see sig).

[wndycty]

46. All I am looking for is. . .

. . .some honesty from the Dean supporters here. The Confederate flag controversy is potentially damaging to Dean (I hope that it does not hurt him), and all of Dean's DU supporters just want to ignore the potential damage.

[Scott Lee]

82. It sounds like you wish it were more damaging than it is

Tell us, why are you keeping the CF flap alive after it's shelf life has expired, hmm?

[Tinoire]

97. Its shelf life won't expire until that damn flag comes down

Don't blame Wyndycty fior this. Blame Dean for opening a Pandora's box that every politician knows not to touch with a 10 foot pole. The confederate flag, and the fact that it still flies on state grounds, is a painful issue. Dean brought it up and some of his supporters aggravated the case- the pain won't magically go away just because people are now realizing what a SNAFU it was. Not even in the best world will that happen. This is politics where a man is judged by his judgements and 20 year old statements.

Most Black people are upset regardless of who we support and as many have stated- the problem is more the attitude of the supporters than that of Dean himself. You mustn't expect a lot of Black support of the attitude is going to be "get over it, the shelf life has expired". Honestly, it would be more graceful for Dean supporters to either say nothing or repeat that it was a most unfortunate statement that wasn't intented to cause so much pain. Until then, you raise a subconscious fear that come voting day, we are going to be standing in a booth with the very people we are fighting. We do not believe we can fight them from within and prefer that no invitation- no matter how naive, be issued to a voting block that stands for eveything that is anathema to us as a Party- or so we thought. The more we are expected to accept, rationalize or just let this go, the more we will wonder what kind of a party some Democrats are trying to build.

For the record, I want no invitations issued to the KKK, the neo-nazis, or the fundamentalists.

[wndycty]

137. Thanks Tinoire. . .

. . .I am just raising the question. I think Dean will eventually get past this, but he should be held to the same standard that he and his supporters hold other candidates to.

[Tinoire]

192. I think Dean will get past this too-

I'm not even that concerned about his comment. Most of my posts here are purely intellectual arguments because my main problem isn't with Dean. He is who he is and doesn't understand the politics of the South to recognize a political tar baby when he sees one.

Have no fears about Dean not being held to the same standard as other candidates- he is. Too many of us are unwilling to make excuses or uneccessary compromises because we only want what's best for our country and the world.

I really was shocked to read some of the threads though where people were defending, not Dean, but the Confederate flag. Some of those posts were a sad reminder of just how bad things are and how hopelessly out of touch we are with the very minorities we claim to represent. Honestly, I can't believe that in 2003 that Flag is still as divisive an issue as it was when King marched and the same people are still rationalizing it.

Dean is absolutely correct in his sentiment but in his haste to court those voters (who sneer at a party affiliated with the NAACP and the ACLU), his reckless comments are alienating an important group he needs. Anyone who refuses to accept that that has happened, no matter how wrong they think it is, is not doing Dean or the Democratic Party any great favors.

A little grace in apologizing goes a long way. Dean's apology didn't go far enough but I don't think it was in his best interest to go any further than he did. He could even have gotten away without apologizing and just clarified with a few well-chosen words. We'll see how this all plays out but if I were his campaign advisor, I'd tell him to steer clear of these pit-falls- especially in the South where the brash Northern style is a turn-off.

[Tinoire]

74. Syrinx- his apology was feeble

and rendered even more feeble by the defense so many Dean supporters made of, not so much his comment, but of that flag's right to be proudly displayed in an America where racial tension and racial disparity still exist.

That flag still flies proudly on South Carolina state grounds. Dean basically said that's ok by him as long as people focus towards the future and vote for him.

Try to be Black for one short minute.

Again, I am unhappy with Dean about this because it shows me he doesn't really think before he speaks but I am even unhappier to see how fanatical some of his supporters are that they would spin Wndycty's comment is less about Dean's comment than it is about the effects of that comment and his supporters defense of the flag.

How do you feel about the fact that, no matter how correct, you may think that comment was, that Dean may lose a lot of Black support? I think that was the original question.

[_Jumper_]

77. Good post

Many of them are in denial about the negative effects of his comment. Not only did it cost him some black support, it cost him some support among white Southerners, because as Edwards said, it was condescending toward them.

[Tinoire]

95. I think it's going to cost a lot of Black votes

The are unspoken codes in the South, things you say and things you don't, particularly if you're a Northerner and don't want to be branded as a Scallywag and Dean didn't understand that. For his sake, I hope he's understanding it now.

I think DuctapeFatwa said it well, that Dean is not the man to navigate that minefield. Too brash. Wes Clark can barely navigate it and he is a quasi Southerner (Arkansas isn't really the South and he was away in the Army for so long) but his knows the pitfalls. Edwards is a master at navigating it- he knows every pitfall so instinctively that he could navigate in the dark.

If Dean wants to win the South, he's going to have to learn to be more graceful and learn to finesse his words.

I wonder how Kucinich will do down there. I don't think the South is good territory for him either. I don't expect a SNAFU of this magnitude mostly because Kucinich doesn't use snappy one-liners and always takes the time to clearly explain his position but it's dangerous territory for him too...

[Syrinx]

91. short answer:

Al Sharpton intentionally inflames racial tension. Howard Dean does not.

on edit: based on your sig, in which you seem to endorse Sharpton.

[Tinoire]

96. Actually

I made that my signature, not because Sharpton is my candidate, but because I've thought for years that the Democratic Party doesn't have a clue about how close they are to losing the Black vote. Sharpton's comment is right on and I put it as my signature so that more people would think about it.

It's coming in particularly handy now. It's how Black people have felt for a long time after having our votes be taken for granted for so long.

I'm glad you pointed it out though because that's exactly what Black people may tell Dean soon- we're not taking you to the dance because you want to go home with a bunch of (confederate flag-waving) right-wingers.

Honestly. Think about that... Sharpton made thatcomment a while back- before Dean's mis-speak...

Sharpton doesn't intentionally inflame racial tension. The only people who say that are, no offense, White people who want so desperately to believe that there is no racial tension.

Sharpton's just the messenger. It's unfortunate people don't want to listen to him- it may prove a very costly mistake.

[Isome]

114. He does? Says who?

And what do you say to all those who agree with him? Will no one court their vote? Or, are they expendable, while confederate-battle-flag-waving mouthbreathers, with their just-beneath-the-surface white supremacy are worthy of a special shout out?

"Inflames(ing) racial tension" often has the same meaning as "race baiting": if I don't want to believe it or think about it, it's a bad thing to bring it up.

[mbali]

136. Shoe. Other. Foot.

I wonder how folks would react if Sharpton announced tomorrow that he wants to be the candidate of those who wear FOI (Fruit of Islam) on their hats.

Would they see that as an attempt to reach out, provoke dialogue about race, expand the base of the Democratic Party? Or would they attack him for encouraging hate-mongering and stirring up racial tensions?

Would they tell white Democrats who are offended by attempts to bring Louis Farrakhan supporters into the fold that they just don't understand where Sharpton is coming from, that some white people think what he said is just fine, so they must be out of step and that by questioning his motives they are merely making playing into Rove's hands? Or would they line up with those Democrats in denouncing Sharpton?

Let's think about whether this shoe fits the other foot.

[Isome]

153. Great minds & all that... I posted the same thing further down the thread.

e o m

[Isome]

154. Great minds & all that... I posted the same thing further down the thread.

e o m

[CWebster]

118. It IS about how the flag is used as a divisive symbol

Dean singles out the flag to represent the poor whites as the specific group who are targeted and baited by the Right with cultural images that keep them voting Republican. The Republican party uses--exploits them for votes but doesn't represent them economically.

The Democrats have lost the South and Dean points out that through the issues of economic fairness, healthcare, education, the Democrats can appeal to win back these voters.

It is very simple and anyone who plays the race card is missing the point or being deliberately dishonest as a way to take a hit at Dean.

[KittyWampus]

5. "Dean Has Great Big Balls"

Somehow it seems kinda sorta immature to use that phrase...

Not that i'm the epitome of maturity or anything.

but that just sounds so ridiculous.

If someone had GREAT BIG BALLs wouldn't they be freaks?

[wndycty]

6. It would be a freak of nature. . .

. . .but what gives him big balls? The fact that he is willing to trade the Black vote for the southern white vote?

[AP]

128. It's sick the way sexuality and masculinity is a substitute for argument

when discussing Dean.

It's sick because that's what took the place of reality when Republicans foisted Bush on America.

[Cha]

7. Don't be absurd.

We got Jesse Jackson Jr. and a whole lot of African American folks on Board!

http://www.blacksfordean.com "Howard Dean's remarks about the need to appeal to white Southerners could certainly have been better phrased. But his rivals for the Democratic nomination should be ashamed of their reaction. They know what he was trying to say — and it wasn't that his party should go soft on racism. By playing gotcha, by seizing on the chance to take the front-runner down a peg, they damaged the cause they claim to serve — and missed a chance to confront the real issue he raised." Paul Krugman

[KittyWampus]

8. All Blacks Think Alike Dontcha Know

:(

[Cha]

13. What a rude thing to say!

[wndycty]

15. It was sarcasm

:kick:

[KittyWampus]

23. Thread Starts Considering Black People

who might have been offended.

You counter with:
"We got Jesse Jackson Jr. and a whole lot of African American folks on Board!"

So apparently it doesn't matter if some people might have been offended- cause JJJ and "a whole lot of African Americans" support Dean....

Why would you mention those other people when that is NOT the issue?

For the record:

A. The Edwards & Sharpton had a point
B They made their point miserably

[Cha]

34. Because not All Black People think

a like!

[KittyWampus]

41. No Kidding?

Then maybe Jesse Jackson Jr. isn't relevant in a thread about those who DID take offense then.

Anyhow, this certainly was a good lesson in how to confront your opponents with criticism and how NOT to.

If Sharpton had said "you make a good point about an important issue but used inappropriate language..."

it might've been easier for Dean to say "sorry" and the whole durn thing to blow over.

[Cha]

45. Yeah! I'm sure you would like it not to

be "relevant". Too bad it is.

[KittyWampus]

60. When You Are Talking About An Offended Person

It is insensitive to say "But HE isn't offended"

It's really that simple.

[Cha]

68. We are talking about votes here...and

Dean can't please all the People..that's understood. Some people get "offended" at the drop of a hat. Nothing can be done about that.


I'm glad someone of Jesse Jackson Jr's mettle doesn't get offended by Dean..in fact it's au contraire.

[spooky3]

193. I agree with A but not with B.

What kills me is how many people want to interpret all of the speakers' remarks (Dean's, Edwards', & Sharpton's), while at the same time calling "absurd" or some other negative term, the views of people whose interpretations don't agree with their own. While the outcome isn't "freeperlike", the you vs. me, extreme, simple-minded process sure is. :-(

I am concerned about the reactions of African Americans, blacks and others who initially did not think Dean "got it" and hope that his apology made it clear that he is getting it. In the end, they and everyone else will judge him on his actions.

[wndycty]

9. It took 7 posts to play the Jackson card. . .

. . .anytime you have to cite your Black support to give your candidate cover its not a good thing. Sooner or later many of those supporters may come to resent being use as a defense in controversial situations.

[Cha]

17. Jesse Jackson Jr on Board is Huge and

I'm sorry you are so damn jealous.

[wndycty]

19. Not jealous at all. . .

. . .but its sad when Dean has to trot out his Black support to show he is OK, sort of like Bush with Powell and Rice.

[Cha]

22. Jesse Jackson Jr is not rice and powell

but then you knew that.

[wndycty]

26. I did not say that . . .

. . .my Congressman is someone I respect and look up to. I will campaign for his re-election as well. But I do not agree with him on this. However the Powell/Rice comparison was directed at Dean and his supporters who use the Jackson endorsement as cover for this situation, sort of like Bush on Civil Rights.

[Cha]

37. It's not a "cover"...that's your word...

It's a fact that you can't deal with.

[candy331]

71. Dean opened a can of worms and they

are crawling all over the place. His backing off sounds like the cave in by CBS. I think he needs to call a news conference and go through the past as to racial issues. Take race from the repugs as a dividing issue and nudge it as a uniting issue by walking the nation back to 1960's when Civil rights Act was signed where many white southerners left the party and later along 1968 when repugs joined with these southerners and GOP dominance thenceforth.

Pres Johnson took the risk in signing the Civil Rights Act,he knew it and someone else is going to have to take up the banner it's just a matter of who will do it.

Dean bungled his opening but he was on the right track, republicans/southerners working folks need to feed their families, have health insurance, etc. too and repug rhetoric and racial baiting want accomplish it.

Southerners have the same basic human needs as everyone else and the repugs have given them the shaft using race to keep them blind to their tactics and this needs to be shown to them.


I know you can "lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
so someone has to do the leading don't they?

They do need to be voting with us and someone needs present the facts to show them why!

Dean/Clark leaning

[Tinoire]

99. He can certainly salvage this and even use it to his advantage

but it will take finesse. And he needs to stay away from the confederate flag issue (if it will now stay away from him).

I am not overly warm to Dean and don't think he's the man to do this but your idea is excellent and if he could pull it off, I would say more power to him.

It's certainly time we did something!

[drfemoe]

53. Absurd

You want to cite one example of a young man who was interviewed and quoted ONLY to give an oppossing sentiment to Dean's statement; and then equate this young man with the entire "African American community". ....

YET, when it is pointed out that many (not just JJJ) actual Leaders of said community endorse Dean, that is "cite(ing) your Black support to give your candidate cover".

So, erm . you won't be happy until Mr. Tywon McLamore agrees with Dean?

If this doesn't strike you as absurd and clearly stacking the deck against any kind of objective documentation to refute your claim that we don't care about Black voters ... then all I can say is :crazy:

[Cha]

80. Absurd was my description, too!

Thanks for laying it out so rationally!

[Le Taz Hot]

119. And it only took one more CF thread

to start the Dean flamebait from the usual suspects. And my ignore list grows.

[KittyWampus]

14. Funny You're Mentioning Krugman's Article

Krugman has warned:

*Rove will be using Gay Marriage against Democrats
*against repeal of middle class tax cuts

Two items associated especially with Dean

The main issue Dean raised is his inability to speak in public especially in regards to using language that doesn't include stereotypes.

[Cha]

21. Dean isn't afraid of rove or anyone else...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=81082
"Are you worried about Dean being hurt by Civil Unions?"

[_Jumper_]

27. Bush has a lot of African-American support too

J.C. Watts, Powell, Rice, Keyes, et al. Having some black supporters doesn't prove anything.

[Cha]

43. It "proves" that not everybody was upset

by Dean's comments on drawing Southerners with "Confederate flag decals" into our fold. And that is what we are discussing. So yeah.

[_Jumper_]

48. Everyone knew that already

Obviously not all minorities are going to be upset about a candidate courting racists. Remember, many blacks defended Trent Lott when he announced that he believed segregation as a continuation of the Republican "Southern Strategy" that tries to appeal to neo-Confederates via code words. Having a few black people support Dean doesn't prove that his comment was approved of by most African-Americans.

I'm just glad that no one with a "D" next to their name would ever use code words to appeal to racists...

[drfemoe]

67. No .. didn't you see the stampede

of grassroots civil rights activists Jumping on this like a stack of porn at a truck stop?

Oh, oops .. those were the "Democratic" presidential contenders.

I haven't seen the Dean guys on DU posting every negative comment written about the behavior of that pack .. why bother.

Their strategy is not much different than what we've seen for at least 3 years === use a bradley tank to crush a mosquito.

[Cha]

72. LOL! Thanks for your refreshing comments...I'm happy

to read them right now after so much hot air.

[_Jumper_]

73. They are acting in self-interest

Civil rights leaders have personal political interests too. They know, obviously, that having racist votes won't hurt the party at the ballot box. More Democrats in office and a Democratic president will mean more power for them. We all know if a Republican had made a similar comment the NAACP and similar groups would have vigorously denounced it.

[drfemoe]

88. If a republican said this ..

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR."

... I think you would hearing cheering.

Be sure to read : ThorsteinVeblen #12

[mbali]

85. Why is it that

when countless black folks disagree with Dean, they are just clueless, brainwashed or just don't understand but let one black politician line up with him and that politician not only is brilliant and untouchable but he also represents the only acceptabl "black" view?

Do you realize how annoying it is to have Dean and his supporters consistently use Jesse Jackson, Jr. as his "get out of jail free" card? Jackson does not speak for all black people any more than Rick Santorum speak for all white people. Nor does the fact that HE wasn't offended by Dean's comments make the feelings of other black people any less relevant or genuine.

Moreover, it smacks of a "some of my best friends are black" condescension toward blacks that only exacerbates the impression that many of have that Dean is woefully ignorant about and utterly unprepared to address the nuanced, subtle and complicated issue of race and politics in America.

[incapsulated]

108. Amen! n/t

[Isome]

112. You can say that again... all of it!

It keeps me from having to type it! ;-)

[wndycty]

120. Also there is a certain defensiveness. . .

. . .on the part of of Dean supporters that will turn off a number of Black undecided votes. My suggestions to Dean, on this and any other issue, have always been driven by a desire to provide an important point of view, however they are often seen as bashing. I am willing to bet that the insiders in the Dean campaign most likely have concerns about the same issues I am raising.

[AP]

133. Not only that, but in defending his endorsement of Dean to Sharpton,

JJ Jr basically said that we're not going to agree with the person we endorse on every issue, which sort of begs the question, 'is race one of those things Jr doesn't entirely agree with Dean on?"

His justification for the endorsement was, basically, we want to get on this train early, and had nothing to do with where he was going to have to sit once he was on the train.

Furthermore, the only other significant black endorsement was from that NY congressman who said that Dean's reminded him of the members of the CBC who all voted against the 87 billion handout to Republican insiders in Iraq. Interesting that that was his litmus test when Dean said he would have voted for it.

I find the logic of Dean's black endorsements confusing, to say the least.

[mzmolly]

151. What 'countless' Blacks do you speak of?

Countless people of all colors are afronted by the Bush administration, and the sheeple that voted for him. In fact, it is said Deans comments offended people of all nationalities. :shrug:

I personally appreciate what Dean was saying, as do 'countless' numbers of Black people and White people and latino people and so on.

[Isome]

172. There are not countless Black people who appreciate what he said.

I take issue with blatant dishonesty.

[mzmolly]

179. I take issue with *your* dishonesty.

I say your dishonest, you say I am. So be it!

[Isome]

186. When I make dishonest assertions, you'll have every right to be.

Until then, my suggestion is to concentrate on finding facts to bolster your position, and leave the hyperbole out of it.

[depakid]

10. What a loaded question

And since this issue has been argued ad nauseum over the past week, I have little to add.

[wndycty]

11. Loaded question?

It just a question. . .a simple yes or no would do.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

12. Why is there a "black" vote?

Does being the same race necessarily make everyone have the same interests? I would think not. Any truth to this statement comes out of the legacy of slavery in this country. We have a number of legeslative weapons to combat that legacy: affirmative action, education, health care, welfare, etc. There are plenty of black people in this country who have made it on there own and don't need anymore government assitance.

That said, Dean supports affirmative action.

Any other thing underpriviledged blacks have in common, they also have in common with underpriviledged whites - which means that the "black" vote should be the same as the "south" vote where there is a high percentage of rural, underpriviledged whites.

The fact is that "racism" is encouraged by politicians like Jesse Helms (currently residing in hell) and Trent Lott in order to divide the underpriviledged whites from the underprivileged blacks and thereby conqour them as a political force.

Dean is trying to cut through the bullshit. Politicians like Sharpton (no matter how much I like the guy) are also counterproductive. They enable Lott and Helms and direct anger at the underpriviledged whites when they should be embracing them - like Martin Luther King did.

King understood it is not about race, it is about class, it is about democracy, it is about people.

We need to stop treating the south like our little hick brother. Black people need to embrace those who have, like them, been vicitimized by Republican politicians.

[Isome]

113. Stop the madness...

There's a BLACK vote because white supremacy doesn't value class, it values RACE above all else. That's why Danny Glover can't get a cab in NY, and that's why Oprah Winfrey wasn't let into the buzz-in jewelry store. Come on people, buy a clue somewhere along the journey will ya'!!

I wasn't offended by Dean's comment, but I know the double standard is alive and well, just as Sharpton pointed out!! If he had said he wanted to get the votes of the swastika flag waving skinheads, there'd still be headlines about it today, and a five-part special report due to start on Sunday. He's the only candidate who will point out the things I live with, or see, day in and day out. Far from being counterproductive, he's making the candidates confront the issues about race they'd rather ignore. Don't kid yourselves, because not as many others are buying your version of things as you think they are.

I've never read or heard anything from MLK dismissing race as a factor in racism. That doesn't sound like an accurate characterization of his thinking. I hope that's not another instance of misinterpreting MLK to chastise Americans of African descent.

^{All occurences of "you" or "your" are strictly in a generic sense. If the reader takes it personally,
it's because their foot fits that particular shoe. In that situation, they're invited to wear it in good health.}

[alcuno]

18. What statement would Mr. McLamore be making by putting a

confederate flag bumper sticker on his car?

[wndycty]

20. Maybe so Howard Dean will reach out to him too

:kick:

[alcuno]

35. I've heard many of Dean's speeches and it seems to me he

always reaches out to Blacks. I live and work in a community that is 40% African American. People I know like Dean and Clark.

[virtualobserver]

25. the reason that Rep. Jackson is always mentioned.......

is that he wasn't offended. He agreed with Dean. None of my black friends were offended either. They understood that Dean was not advocating the Confederate flag, but that he was in fact stating that he intended to make the case to southern voters who have been choosing candidates based on symbols, that they should instead vote for their pocketbooks instead.

I don't want any voters to be alienated. but Dean wants to bring this out into the open, and he has to talk about how the Republicans have used these symbols to divide us. If an inablility to reach out to southern whites means four more years for Bush, and a continued Republican Congress, all Americans will suffer.

[Egnever]

28. What kind of stupid ass question is that?

have you ever even listened to dean speak on race or fo you just make this crap up as you go along?

[wndycty]

30. Obviously you did not read the initial post. . .

. . .I did not criticize Dean, he has apologized, he admitted he made a mistake. However his supporters at DU are still in denial of that mistake. More importantly not one supporter is at all concerned about how this will impact the Black vote, hell it sounds like they are willing to trade us for the southern white vote.

[Egnever]

44. I think you are confusing defense of the Idea of inclusion for all

wiith some sort of agenda against black people.

I am sory that the twisting of his words coupled with an obvious garbling of an often repeated message was put on diisplay on national TV. However that doesnt change the fact that the message dean is promoting is one of inclusion not one of discrimination.

Everyone makes verbal gaffes and thats all this was. If you buy into the whole confederate flag waving mantra put forth by deans competition in the primaries then you will be doing yourself a huge disservice as a minority.

[wndycty]

47. I am not criticizing Dean. . .

. . .if you read my posts, I agree with what he said, I just have an issue with how he said it. My problem is with the Dean supporters on DU who refuse to acknowledge how some people might be offended. They do two things. . .blame those who may have been offended for not understanding what Dean was trying to say and then they trot out Jesse Jackson Jr.

[Egnever]

58. I am starting to think you are just looking for a fight

what exactly is wrong with how he said it any of the hundred of times he said it other than the one time he flubbed it?

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

36. Have you ever listened to Bush speak about race?

His rhetoric is anti-racist as well. He just sometimes says things to try to appeal to racists because he wants their votes...

[Skip Intro]

111. exactly

really, rediculous qestion.

[Melinda]

31. Yes, I care. But I don't think it's happening.

Using one example (or three hundred) as an idicator of proof that Dr. Dean will somehow alienate the black vote seems disengenuous at best.

So, if YOU care, then take the time to go ask Dr. Dean's black supporters directly.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AfricanAmericansForDean/?yguid=141315434

Dr. Dean has been Talking About Race -- it's just that many here aren't listening.

[wndycty]

38. Based on your logic. . .

"Using one example (or three hundred) as an idicator of proof that Dr. Dean will somehow alienate the black vote seems disengenuous at best."

Jesse Jr. and Dr. Dean's other Black supporters are irrelevant.

[Melinda]

49. No, not my logic - yours.

I don't dismiss anyone as "irrelevant", but rather attempt point out that one person's opinion does not a consensus make; this is exactly why I suggested you speak directly with Dr. Dean's African-American supporters across America. If you are sincere in your search for answers, than that is an obvious starting point.

And my "three hundred" references the media blasts on the subject --not individuals. I obviously confused you, and for that I apologize.

[wndycty]

51. Great debating tactic

Something Dean supporters do often if you don't agree with them, they question your intelligence.

"I obviously confused you, and for that I apologize."

[Melinda]

56. My apology was, and continues to be, sincere -- eom.

[_Jumper_]

52. Trent Lott has many African-American supporters too

Does that prove he isn't a racist? Does that prove that he doesn't try to court racists?

[_Jumper_]

39. Everyone knows Dean isn't racist

But he was courting the racist vote with his Confederate flag comment; some people are upset about that. Kind of like how people were upset when Bush went to Bob Jones University to court the votes of bigots...

[Melinda]

50. No, he wasn't "courting the racist vote"....

He was doing exactly the opposite - my sig line says it all.

[_Jumper_]

55. So Ronnie Raygun wasn't courting racists when he said...

..."I believe in states' rights"? After all, he denounced racism too. What about Bush's visit to Bob Jones University? Was he not courting bigots becaused he denounced racism and anti-Catholic bigotry?

[Melinda]

59. Sorry Jumper, but I can't debate this issue with you.

Have a good evening.

[_Jumper_]

63. Ok

.

[incapsulated]

33. Speaking for myself

And several other black posters here, the idea that this whole issue might cost black votes doesn't seem to raise anywhere near the concern that it should.

The black population are the most loyal Democratic voters, period. Many are sick and tired of being taken for granted while issues important to the community get lip service and not much else. Now, we know that the most important thing is to get rid of Bush as much or more than anyone else. But, even the appearance of seeming to be insensitve, or once again taking that vote for granted, is very, very stupid, not to mention insulting. "Well I can bring up the confederate flag, knowing what that means to most black americans, in an attempt to attract white southerners, because we all know black people aren't going to vote for Bush no matter what I say..."

It's this kind of attitude that could be the difference between a big turnout and a tepid one. Is that the risk you want to take, considering the close race we are likely to face? With the odds against the white southerner with that flag on his pickup voting for a northeastern liberal, it seems a pretty stupid gamble.

There does need to be a discussion of race and southern voters. But not like this.

[_Jumper_]

40. Good post

If he said "NASCAR Democrats" or "working-class Southern whites" no one would have been offendend; but he had to mention that racist symbol to court the racist vote in particular. He was courting them via code words just like Republicans have been doing since 1968. Why deny that?

[Egnever]

54. Dean suporter here

And I will tell you straight up why this foesnt even begin to bother me.

The black vote (if it must be called that) would be doing itself a grave disservise in turning thiet backs on Dean. I believe the truth of the man will out itself throughout the campaign.

Buying into the hype put forth by his contenders in this race will be shopoting yourself in the foot.

Dean is the strongest on speaking out about inclusion and breaking down bariers of any of the candidates. And he doesnt just do it when pandering to a minority crowd.

Play wounded all you like but you are not doing yourself as a minority any favors by buyting into the sensationalist tripe that was displayed at RTV

[wndycty]

57. Weez best vote for ole man Dean 'cause da nice gentleman says

"The black vote (if it must be called that) would be doing itself a grave disservise in turning thiet backs on Dean. I believe the truth of the man will out itself throughout the campaign."

[Egnever]

62. Nope vote for whoever you think best represents you

Thats how it should always be.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_Jumper_]

61. One can be anti-racist and court racists simultaneously

n/t

[Egnever]

64. And your point is?

:shrug: :shrug:

[_Jumper_]

66. My point

Dean is not a racist but that doesn't mean he can't try to appeal to racists. He did try to appeal to them via code words and some people are upset about that. The controversy is not about Dean's beliefs on race; it is about his attempt to appeal to racists.

[Egnever]

75. Code words!

When do I get my ring?

[_Jumper_]

78. Candidates with "D's" next to their name never try to appeal to racists

"R" appealing to racists=bad
"D" appealing to racists=good(completely hypothetical of course)

[Tinoire]

102. Then it is up to gracious Dean supporters to make that happen

and shout down those who derail this by defending the flag and trying to make it out to be something respectable. That's the main point of the thread I think.

And you guys can do it, I know it.

[Kanary]

122. I've been reading your posts on this

and marvel at your ability to keep trying to chip away at this.

What I see, with a few exceptions, is a constant theme of defending rather than listening to how words have/do hurt.

There seems to be a lack of awareness of how this defending leads to a stalemate, and losing votes in the future.

"My way or the highway" is pushing out a lot of people.

Big tent?

Not yet.

I admire your patience.

Kanary

[blm]

139. Same here....

Tinoire is a class act. Her use of patient, elegant language is enviable.

I also envy her demeanor. I'm a get down to brass tacks type. Not very amenable on a message board. ;))))))))))))

[Tinoire]

191. Hehe

You're so kind and making me blush... I admire your spirit and tenaciousness to just get to the facts and the meat of matters in this campaign.

Patient, elegant language? Lol... You should ask Skinner for my Rovian file of deleted posts ;) I think there are some particularly juicy ones from the one time I got drunk and posted. Never again ;)

Thanks my friend... We need the bass tacks though otherwise when you sit down on the chair, it collapses and you end up looking rather silly in that sea of chiffon on the floor :)

:hi:

[Tinoire]

189. Thanks... It's really nothing...

I'm not that patient but I like talking with people...

I think Dean learned that he'll have to pick his words more wisely and that there are political tar babies in the South that he best stay away from- especially as a Northerner.

I think most Dean supporters understand that he really mis-spoke

I appreciate your compliment. Thanks :)

Wow--- Zell Miller on Hardball now :puke: First praising Bush and now talking about the Confederate Flag. Now back to praising Bush...
Yuck

[DoctorMyEyes]

79. You're not speaking for me

and I do understand the context of what Dean was saying.

I don't see him as taking black voters for granted. What I do see is a knee jerk reaction from a lot of people over a media fueled distortion over a couple of other candidates using the expression to "make hay".

Frankly, I'm more insulted that so many people would assume that a black voter would lack the sophistication to understand the issue.

As far as "reaching out" to the black community, I'm getting a little sick of seeing someone on TV everyday proposing to represent a "block" of voters complaining about "not being reached out to" - this includes minorities, seniors, college kids - it's all bullshit.

What are voters doing, sitting by the phone like a teenage girl in a 1950's sitcom waiting for the phone to ring, cause if a boy doesn't call she won't have a date for the prom?

Dean has plenty of support in the AA community, and he's got a lot more endorsements than just Jesse Jackson Jr, too.

Ten of the DC Council members have endorsed Dean. He's taken a strong stand to provide DC with representation. He's taken a stand against school vouchers, he spoke out against prop 54 in California, he's called prisons the most expensive and least effective form of social spending, he wants to provide all of our children with better healthcare and schools, he'll create jobs, he's proven his commitment to civil rights by giving gays in Vermont the same legal rights as heterosexuals - what the hell else does a Democratic voter, much less and African-American voter want?

If the toothless bubbas waving confederate flags and sending their kids to the worst schools in the nation think it's in their best interest to vote republican, it's their loss, but someone ought to point it out to them.

[Cha]

84. Thanks..this is great to have some sanity inserted

here. Of course, you make sense. It's only those with agendas who are accusing Dean of "taking Black voters for granted".

[incapsulated]

92. I never said I was

But I do know of several other posters who agree with me, as I said. I did not say "all black posters".

I guess I was tired of white posters speaking for the black voters in general around here. "It won't make a difference", "Well, all my black friends...", "Jesse Jackson Junior!!!" (talk about not giving black people the credit for their own opinions)

I don't know or claim what this will mean, I do know it was a gamble, and one that I think was stupid. Black voters, just like any other large group, contain plenty of people who are willing to vote against their own interests over one issue and some who are just plain stupid. I will vote for Dean if he gets the nod because I don't believe he is a rascist and anyone is better than Bush. I wouldn't play games with the black vote, though, period.

[Tinoire]

101. Good post

And the fallacy of the argument is that Blacks do not have to vote Democratic and do not have to vote at all if we don't want to. Check out this sad, sad thread about Black voters from a few months ago. Just scan it a little- it degenerated like you couldn't believe and I am sorry so many posts got deleted but the tone is still there:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=374054#374081

Dean is not the only one that worries me. The entire Democratic Party is worrying me these days. I hardly recognize it.

[incapsulated]

105. Thanks

As for myself, I would encourage anyone who was considering staying at home over this to vote. We can't have another 4 years of Bush. It would pain me though, because this is exactly the type of response those who take the "black vote" for granted is expecting, I know this. I'm tired of being between a rock and a hard place. But I'm also tired of being told that I'm not, and I should have no problem just because I'm told that I don't. I'm pretty shocked at the defenses of the flag itself by so-called democrats as well. I have no problem getting white southern voters to come into the party. But those waving the confederate flag have a lot of work to do on themselves before I'm welcoming them, and I certainly don't consider it my party's responsiblity to try enlighten them by tempting them with healthcare.

[Tinoire]

65. I'm not a Dean supporter but here's my 10 cents

but as a Black woman I will clearly tell you that there is no way in hell I'm standing in line with even a single flag waving confederate to vote for someone who is going to represent both of us. There is no way Dean or anyone else can represent both me and the people who wax nostalgic for the good old Mint Julep sipping days when women like me were auctioned on the block to go slave away in some field or kitchen.

Dean can not represent both of us. I am less upset with Dean than I am with DUers who are defending that flag. Racism is still so alive and present in our society that too many decent people can't even understand the utter horror of what they are defending.

There is currently an economic boycott of South Carolina over that flag. To Black people, what Dean basically did was let the racists know that the fact that flag still flies on state grounds is not an issue for him. This on top of defying the NAACP's boycott of the state. I don't think enough non-Blacks understand how severely this will affect the Black community. We have a boy-cott of South Carolina taking place now. Edwards and Sharpton honored it by not sleeping there- Dean did not- back in February he openly stated he would not honor the boycott and Black forums are already buzzing with the words Scallywag and Carpet-bagger. Too many Black people already do not trust White politicians, especially Northerners, and this is not going to help! Damn, I'm sorry, I do not mean to take off on Dean but it is hard to separate the two and the more I think about it, the more it offends me and some of the DU comments have not helped. I will state though, that I did not, save for one mild exception, see the names of any old-time DUers who made this site what it is, defending that flag.

Dean will lose the Black vote if he doesn't issue a real apology- make that a sincere humble apology. Most Blacks will tell you that the racism in the North is just as bad, if not worse, than the racism in the South because it is more veiled... And for every vote Dean loses, well, there are none to replace it because confederate flag wavers do not vote for a party that panders to the NAACP and the ACLU. I'm not a Dean supporter but it would be a shame to see any Dem lose easily delivered Dem votes over something so stupid.

Dean, with his brash comment, has just stepped on a mind-field and I'm losing faith that he'll navigate through it. What he said was just as insensitive as if anyone had said they wanted the neo-nazi votes since their children don't have health-care either. Jewish people would rightfully be offended by the insensitivity of the comment (much less the stupidity because racists don't vote Dem)

I think you're a Clark supporter but your comment is valid and I'm glad you posted this. Black people are not going to take very kindly to this entire thing and I think Dean supporters should realize it to try to smooth the waters while there's still time because this isn't going to hurt only Dean, it's going to hurt all the Democratic candidates. It is a myth that Black people are blinded by loyalty to the Democratic party- it has back-stabbed and used us numerous times. Clinton did it when he promised us something we held very dear- that he would no longer continue Bush's criminal policy of shipping Haitian refugees back to the Haiti as long as the CIA's man, Raoul Cedras, was in charge. The minute Clinton got to the White House, that promise was ditched.

Aww jeez America, wake up!

Soory for the angry tone- I have a raging head-ache and this subject is making me angry. Not so much because of Dean but because of the comments I've seen here at DU. Dean can fix his mis-step if he's humble and clever enough but it will cost him- he may have to evolve to a different stance on whether the Confederate flag is a federal or state issue. I'm not so sure about the flag-defending DUers who don't understand that certain flags belong in museums and not on state grounds.

=================================================================
Now that the South Carolina primary is over you might think the Democrats would move on. Yet on the very day of the primary Al Gore beat the race drum again, still harping on the Confederate battle flag. This time he accused George W. Bush and John McCain, of not having “the guts to take on bigotry” by calling for the flag’s removal. Later in a televised debate with Bill Bradley Gore said before an almost all black audience that the “real enemy” are “right wing extremists Confederate flag-waving Republicans, who are trying to roll back the progress that we have made.”

Bush originally evaded the question by saying that the people of South Carolina should address the problem themselves. ((which by the way, is Dean's position - not good at all))

<snip>
http://www.calnews.com/archives/Custred08.htm

[virtualobserver]

81. I understand completely your feelings about the confederate flag

and why you find it so offensive.

But would you really prefer that Southern whites vote for Bush and the Republicans?

[Tinoire]

98. Not at all

but they're going to anyway because the Republicans have always appealed to their racism. Personally, I prefer to not see our party stoop that low and pander for a few votes we won't get especially when it risks losing a more solid block.

We could pander to the KKK and they still would not vote for us so why risk alienating a semi-assured Black vote on a gamble like this?

There's another thing we sadly forget. Black people did not want to vote for Gore and Lieberman. The DNC had to plead to the Black Caucus to please get out and rock the vote for them. The CBC obliged and people like Al Sharpton, who I see being reviled as a race-mongerer, went door to door to plead with Black people to get out and vote.

The vote was delivered. And to a man who had clearly stated:

that the “real enemy” are “right wing extremists Confederate flag-waving Republicans, who are trying to roll back the progress that we have made.” (Gore

If Gore had such a hard time, do you really think Dean will have an easier time with this comment?

I think there are certain votes we just give up and it we want it, we need to find other ways to appeal to those voters. The point about them not having health care was excellent. Dean just needs to tone it down a bit and find a little grace.

His supporters say he is an inspiring speaker- I haven't seen that because I like a little more eloquence. With eloquence, Dean could have carried this off and he just still may.

I tried to point out earlier that I'm not as bothered by Dean's mis-step as I am about the fanatical rush to minimize the importance of the pain he caused. Dean miscalculated- he's not the first politician to do so and my guy could be next...

I knew I should have just stayed out of this thread but I think it's important people understand that supporters can make or break a candidate and that it doesn't help Dean when too many of them, in their haste to defend Dean, ended up defending that flag. That was really the point of Wndycty's post and I apologize for veering...

How many of those people honestly do you think will vote for Dean or any Democrat? They might vote for Clark or Edwards but even for them it would be a small vote.

I'd prefer of course that they vote for a Dem but in order to do that, they need to leave their racism at the door. If we are ready to compromise over such important issues, what will our Party stand for in the end? How diluted will it be and what will we have to give up? And more importantly, how many votes are we willing to give up for that swing vote?

[drfemoe]

103. There's something

you may not realize.

In one of your earlier posts you said there was no way you were going to stand in line with a (flag waving) racist to vote for the same man and there is no way Dean (or any man?) can represent both of you.

Also that, in your opinion, racists won't vote dem anyway.
And that you are not a Dean supporter.

Hope I read that correctly.

The thing is, Gov. Dean cares about children and families whatever color they are. He wants all the positive things people have written about on this thread for little children born into black homes, white homes, gay homes, freedom of or from religion homes ...

If some people choose to participate in an 'us against them' polarity it still won't change the fact that Dr. Dean cares about quality of life for everyone.

If it is okay with you that the children of those bigots have to continue to suffer in poverty, and you are certain they feel the same about you (they won't vote dem and they don't care about your suffering) .. I don't blame you for being mad as hell.

[Tinoire]

146. You read those things correctly

I wanted to be clear about the fact that Dean isn't my candidate from the get-go and not mis-represent myself.

I understand how you see this as Dean just caring about the children of the proud CF flag wavers but can you tell me which candidate up there doesn't? If anything, you could say that Braun, Sharpton and Kucinich care more because their plan covers 100% of those children as well as 100% of their parents. Unlike Dean, their plans cover every reptilian bipod in this country regardless of their political affiliation or ideological beliefs. Now if you want to talk about love- that is love!

It is not ok with me that the children of those bigots continue to suffer in poverty and that's the beauty of everything the Democrats have accomplished over the decades- we have never restricted social programs based on political affiliation so unless Dean knows something shocking about a move afoot to do so his comment didn't mean that at all. He did not say "I want every American child to have health care" which is what almost all the other candidates are saying, he said to every single racist in the South: "I want to be your candidate". He pandered Drfemoe. He pandered to a particularly hateful group of people that still believes Blacks and Whites should be using separate drinking fountains in order to get their vote.

I co-sponsor a soup kitchen in my town. The program is run just like social security- everyone is entitled regardless of political affiliation or ideology. Just show up and we feed you. But I assure you, when we solicit support and funds, we don't solicit support from right-wing haters like Mike Savage or advertise on his program. 1. We know full well he won't give us a dime and 2. we do not want the entanglements that could bring.

There is a big difference between saying "Vote for me, I will provide health-care to all children in America" and "I want to be your candidate".

It was a reckless comment that had less to do with offering healthcare (because again Dean is not the only one offering this ahd his program is tied for 4th place on the list of best healthcare program) and more to do with offending a loyal block of voters in the hopes of getting what? A few thousand swing votes?

We have, one one hane, a candidate fighting this symbol tooth and nail

Her visibility was enhanced a year later by her vigorous opposition to a proposal by Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., for a design patent for the United Daughters of the Confederacy insignia that included a Confederate flag. Braun threatened to filibuster the measure, declaring that what the flag symbolized had "no place in this society." The Senate gave her a victory by rejecting the Helms proposal 75-25.

http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/7713984p-8616707c.html

and on the other hand, we have a Northerner from a White state who obviously doesn't understand race relations in this country (because if the did, there is NO way he would have made that comment) courting racists saying "I want to be your candidate. It was a reckless comment and if there was any pre-thought in it, a reckless, offensive gambit that will not pay off for either Dean or the Democratic party because you can't be everything for everyone. If you try to, in the end you stand for nothing and for no one. That is an even more dangerous message and incidents like this only reinforce the perception that the Democratic party is standing for less and less. How logical is it that Cynthia McKinney was crucified by some of the very posters defending that flag for not having told Farrakhan not to stump for her and Dean is excused for actively courting a racist bloc? That makes no sense and indicates that too many aren't examining this in an un-biased manner.

All human suffering is important and needs to be addressed but that's not what Dean did. He courted those people and told them he could be their candidate. You can not be anyone's candidate unless you represent them on issues more important to them. Those for whom this issue is most important have already switched with no prompting from anyone in the Democratic Party. You can care about everyone's quality of life and actively work to improve it without courting their vote. Do you want to turn around one day and find yourself standing next to the Aryan Brotherhood or the Neo-Nazis? Would you not wonder "What kind of party is this?"? This discussion is less over health-care for all than it is over actively courting a segment of the population clinging to a racist symbol as if that symbol were ok.

This is really no skin off my nose because Dean isn't my preferred candidate (his lack of thought and recklessness before speaking is one reason) but it's a crying shame that people Dean should easily have been able to count on are offended and too few Dean supporters are willing to acknowledge this could be a serious problem and why. He's your candidate (I think), help him out. Dean is the only one who stands to lose votes over this and I know that's not what you want.

Check this out. Just read it today...

===
Dean is not very well-spoken—not, at least, in terms of classical rhetoric—or particularly thoughtful, for that matter. He makes no bones about it. "When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs," he told the New York Times last week. "I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner." This is not a very presidential quality. Last June, Dean told me that he understood he would have to grow as a candidate in order to succeed, that it was time to move his campaign beyond attacks and anger, to take a run at the vision thing. That lasted about a week. "It's hard to do vision in a crowded field where everyone's attacking you," campaign manager Joe Trippi told me last week. "But we're going to try to address the larger themes of this campaign with a series of speeches starting in a few weeks."

But one wonders about the quality of those speeches. I pressed Dean last week about his proposal for a national dialogue about race. He had talked about the need for white people to understand the impact of racism on African Americans. But what did black people need to understand? Did he plan to go into the inner cities and talk about the self-destructive culture of poverty, as Bill Clinton had? He bristled, of course: "The African-American community doesn't need any lectures from me. That's not my style." Oh, yes, it is—and Dean's future may depend on his ability to slow down, stop hectoring and lay out a vision that shows some deeper understanding of the cultural and substantive differences confronting the nation.


http://www.time.com/time/election2004/columnist/klein/article/0,18471,538907,00.html

[drfemoe]

188. As far as I know

the other candidates care about all the children too. However, if I'm not mistaken, Howard Dean is the only one who has actually put it into action with legistlation and programs to provide, not just healthcare, but lifestyle improvements. Domestic violence and child abuse rates in his state dropped dramatically due to the laws he signed. (The exact stats exist, but I don't have them at my fingertips just now.) These are important issues to me, as I am sure they are for you.

I want to be honest .. I am from the largest southern state, although the south doesn't really claim us, because we were not part of the confederacy. I have NEVER been a racist or bigot in any fashion. I am much too sensitive for blind hate.

My family took a vacation to GA and FL in the 60s (when I was a young school girl) during the time when there was a great deal of racial tension there, and the civil rights issue was raging. My dad wanted to take a picture of a restaurant which had a sign in the window proclaiming "no coloreds served". My uncle stopped him, fearing he might be shot or attacked for taking pictures. We ate in such a restaurant, and I remember our family talking about how ridiculous it was that this eatery would hire Black people to work in the kitchen, but not allow them to eat in the dining room. I sure didn't understand it.

Now the honesty .. the 'confederate' flag has always been an embarassment to me. Like I said, it never flew over my home state, but there are still plenty of 'rebels' around who seem to enjoy it. To me, it does say "hate" and "we are better than YOU". I believe 'sin' is this very belief that any 'one' is superior to every 'other'. And I do not even begin to understand how certain people can be proud of their hatred.

Nevertheless, I do not condemn Dean for wanting these haters to vote for him. I don't think his comments excluded the people who are the object of this blind hate, as contrary as that may sound to someone with a different background than mine. I may be naive, but it seems to me that if we can overcome the poverty, violence and hopelessness, the hate will go away. It won't be 'needed' any more. What other method will achieve this? Killing each other is not the answer, obviously. Hurting ourselves to hurt those who hate us is not the answer. The people I stand with want an end to hate and bigotry in all its forms. But there are others who are served by that hatred and perpetuate it to guard their own 'power'. These are the people we need to go after an dethrone. And I think that's what Gov. Dean is trying to do. If anything, his comments have brought this issue to the surface so we can all see the complete monster for what it is.

Thank you for your participation in this important dialog.

[virtualobserver]

141. you certainly are asking a lot of important questions

and I don't mean to minimize your concerns.

When you ask "How many of those people honestly do you think will vote for Dean or any Democrat?"

Here is Dean's answer....

-quote from Speech to DNC Winter Meeting, February 21, 2003

Senator Kerry was reported to have said that he could win without the South. I do not want to win without the South. I want to go to the South and I’m going to say to white guys that drive pick up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back of their car, "We want your vote too, because your kids don’t have health insurance either."

Dean can make a case to any American that Republican policies are hurting them badly.

If Dean or any other candidate cannot make a case for people voting in their own self-interest, then we are truly doomed.

It would be truly ironic if the Confederate flag issue causes AA's to stay home and working class southern whites to vote Republican thereby perpetuating the power of those who cynically use those symbols and economically harm both groups.

[Tinoire]

184. is the gamble worth it?

if "if the Confederate flag issue causes AA's to stay home and working class southern whites to vote Republican thereby perpetuating the power of those who cynically use those symbols and economically harm both groups"?

It's a reckless gamble made even worse by the fact that Dean's last statement was more inflammatory than the one you quoted.

My point is again that Gore, as populist as he sounded, had a very difficult time getting the AA vote. What do you think Dean's chances may be after this perceived offense? It is perception that's going to count.

Please trust me on one thing- Dean doesn't resonate very well with non-Yuppie Blacks, this is not helping at all. If he makes another such cultural gaffe, his image as a fat-cat rich White boy from the North who doesn't have a clue will be cemented.

I know Dean is a smart man with some great qualities and I think, I hope, he learned from this. The Confederate flag is the tar baby of Southern politics.

What you see as just an innocent expression about providing health-care Black progressives see as another example of Centrist willingness to sacrifice progressive votes in order to sign on a few swing voters.

There are 2 ways of looking at this and no offense (just a cold observation) but it really doesn't matter how Dean supporters look at it- all that's going to matter is how much offense Black voters take to his invitation to the CF wavers that "I want to be your candidate". It's harsh but it's politics and politics requires diplomacy and a keen awareness of how your words will resonate.

But yes we are doomed. Even within our party, people have been voting against their self interests for decades. This election isn't going to be any different- it's all smoke and mirrors and who can lie convincingly enough to get the most individual votes while not losing corporate support. Dean can make the case but Lord, he needs to be very careful about how he makes it- especially now.

I don't know who advised Dean to make that pitch within earshot of Southerners. That sort of comment is ok in a closed room with a bunch of Northerners but it's elitist and condescending to White Flag Wavers, offensive to Black voters and Progressive Whites. Realistically who can Dean hope to gain with that statement? and at what price?

His point is good but his unfortunate short-hand is very damaging.

I'm honestly sorry about this whole mess and I'm not even a Dean supporter. Gephardt is now inching past Dean in the Iowa polls and that is not good! http://newsobserver.com/nc24hour/ncnews/story/3013362p-2757081c.html

===================================

Here are a few comments I snipped a few minutes ago:

<snip>

Maurice Bessinger, by contrast, may not have been the kind of voter Dean was trying to reach -- but reach him Dean has.

Bessinger, who is 73 and white, flies the Confederate flag all over Piggy Park, his barbecue joint a few minutes west of the capital, where he also gives away booklets calling Lincoln a traitor.

His reputation is such that many grocery stores will not sell his barbecue sauce.

And he was just thrilled by Dean's remark, calling it proof that the South is rising again, at least politically. "They've got to get our vote to win," he said.

"If I was voting in the Democratic primary, I'd vote for Dean," Bessinger said, recording his own words to make sure a Yankee newspaper did not misquote him. "No doubt about it -- he's a great American."

<snip>

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/7220483.htm

=======================================

<snip>

``If he didn't realize as a candidate for the nomination that his words were poorly chosen and that he should say he was wrong, what does it say about his judgment as the actual nominee?'' said Waring Howe Jr., a member of the Democratic National Committee in South Carolina.

The state holds a critical Feb. 3 primary, and at least half of Democratic voters in South Carolina are black.

``It was an idiotic thing to say,'' said Howe, an uncommitted Democrat who has considered Dean to be one of his top three candidates. ``It hurts him with African-American voters who find the Confederate flag offensive and it hurts him with progressive whites like myself who don't like the image he projected of the South.''

<snip>
``My God. Couldn't he have simply said we need to appeal to the 'Bubba vote' or 'good ol' boy vote?''' said Howe, a South Carolina lawyer. His state is in the midst of a lingering economic boycott over the Confederate flag that flies over the statehouse grounds.

Democrats in other primary states with large black populations said Dean had messed up. ``I know what he was trying to say,'' said Butch Hollowell, chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party and former general counsel of the NAACP, ``but he has to be more careful saying it.''

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3352988,00.html
=====

<snip>

"My first impression was, gosh, does he not understand what that flag represents?" said Waring S. Howe Jr., a Charleston lawyer and Democratic National Committee member. "Does he not have a single Southerner on his staff?"

State Sen. John Matthews, a black Democrat from Orangeburg, said Dean's comment would cost him with African-Americans. "I think he only apologized after he checked the polls and with his supporters in this state," he said.

He also suggested that Dean was misguided for even bothering with those who fly the Confederate flag.

"I don't think it'd bring anything to the table to go after those voters," Matthews said. "They will never support Howard Dean. Most of the people supporting the Confederate flag tend to be right-wing, anti-African-American, anti-Jewish, anti-everything. Believe me -- I live here. I know."

Lonnie Randolph, the state NAACP chairman, said he was not offended by Dean's remark, as he believed that the former Vermont governor "didn't understand his own comments."

But, he added: "Probably more damaging than anything else is that he didn't want to apologize. It shows a degree of arrogance that I don't think people in public office can afford to have."

<snip>

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/7220483.htm

======

WASHINGTON — The can of worms that Howard Dean opened with his ill-conceived effort to identify himself as "the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks" is not one that can be resealed with the words of regret the former Vermont governor belatedly offered. By inadvertently reopening the deepest wound within the nation, the race issue, Dean hurt himself and did a disservice to his party.
He had said similar things several times in the past, without drawing criticism. But with his big fund-raising lead and his accumulating endorsements, his words are now more consequential. When I was with him in Iowa more than a year ago, the line was somewhat different. Then he was promising his outreach would include "the guys driving pickups with gun racks on the back." When his opponents started criticizing the stands that had earned Dean an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association back in Vermont, he switched the description to the flag decal.

His timing could not have been worse, because Democrats were already undergoing traumatic experiences in and about the South. Bob Graham of Florida had just become the fourth Southern senator to opt out of running for re-election next year, creating open seats in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida, all of which could easily fall to the GOP.

<snip>
And last Tuesday, even as Dean struggled to extricate his foot from his mouth, two more states, Kentucky and Mississippi, elected Republican governors to succeed Democrats — accelerating the Democratic decline in what was once the Solid South.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2001786514_broder09.html
==================

[DoctorMyEyes]

86. Dean did not defend the confederate flag

but he did ask the people who do to consider whether it was worth it to them to go without medical care, go without jobs, go without decent schools for their kids in exchange for "keeping down the blacks and the homos"

That's not pandering - that's a reality check. And if he's elected president, like it or not, he'll represent those racist hicks, too - because they are americans.

Now, this is the last word I'm saying on this overblown subject, cause truth be told, we're being led around by the nose here over this tempest in a teapot. We need to be talking about the stalled 9/11 investigation, the stalled pre-war intelligence investigation, the soldiers dying every day in Iraq, the 13 million people going to bed hungry in "the land of plenty", the Valerie Plame leak, and a whole lot of other shit that's more important than this.

[Tinoire]

104. I agree with much of what you say

and while Dean did not directly defend that flag, he gave it tacit acceptance by not condemning it for what it is. But that was not the gist of this thread. The gist of this thread is more about Dean supporters who did though...

What you call a tempest in a teapot is the pain of many wounds this incident and the way it was handled re-opened.

The Southerners I know here are absolutely appalled by the statement and it has nothing to do, for them, with being either pro or anti-Dean. It has to do with what everyone knows that flag represents. Any spin only hurts.

You are right that we should instead 'be talking about the stalled 9/11 investigation, the stalled pre-war intelligence investigation, the soldiers dying every day in Iraq, the 13 million people going to bed hungry in "the land of plenty", the Valerie Plame leak, and a whole lot of other shit that's more important than this.' but why did Dean not think of this?

You can not blame people for reacting to this or talking about it. No one invented this and the reaction, the pain is very real. This is something that needs to be fixed, not ignored.

Dean stands to lose many Black votes over this and not just in the South. Please don't ever think the Black vote is captive.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=374054#374081

[Clark Can WIN]

147. As a displaced southerner

Your assesment there hit it right on Timore. Good post.

[Scott Lee]

142. TELL me the anti-Deans aren't still floating that old chestnut

PLEASE.

[mbali]

87. Damn! That was good!

Thank you for saying it so well.

[1songbird]

90. Your comments are very persuasive.

As a black woman who grew up in the south, I was troubled by the comments of Dean. I am hoping and praying that Clark is the nominee personally, but I do realize that Dean could very well get the nomination. I don't think people give blacks credit for understanding how the system works. I know that regardless of who is in the white house they are not going to address the powder keg issues that could help black communities significantly. I've seen comments on this post that suggest that the only problems that blacks face are those of economic issues. Welfare has been mentioned specifically. The inequality in the justice system and the use of harsher sentences along with the application of the death penalty has not been mentioned. The desparity in drug sentencing has had a devastating impact on our community. I have not heard one nominee address this. Clinton had a significant hand in creating these disparities. Let me quickly say however that he was responsible for creating greater economic prosperity in our communities as well. In order to look tough on crime and please a segment of our society, Clinton had to sacrifice someone, hence our community was that sacrificial lamb. Regardless of who's in office we seem to get the short end of the stick. Is Dean going to screw our community over in order to please someone else? Some might say that he has already shown the propensity to do so with his comments. Despite Dean's comments, if he is the nominee I will vote for him and encourage others to do so as well. Another term of Dubya is too horrible to contemplate not voting for Dean over hurt feelings regarding the Conf. flag. I hope this will be the mindset of many in Nov. 2004.

[drfemoe]

106. You mention very valid concerns

There is information about HD's death penalty stance, and more about his view of the judiciary .. I've just clipped a few remarks. (I've got to crash now.) .. I think your post makes good points.

... Dean:
I will work for federal legislation to restore the right to vote in any federal election for ex-felons who have paid their debt to society.

"Racial discrimination is illegal in hiring, housing, and voting. It should be illegal as a law enforcement technique too."

Improving Access to Community Care to Prevent People With Mental Illness From Being Imprisoned and Abandoned. Despite the fact that community mental health care costs a fraction of incarceration, jails and prisons have become the largest providers of mental health care the Los Angeles jail now treats more patients than any psychiatric hospital in the country. Over 600,000 people with serious mental illness are arrested every year, most for non-violent crimes like trespassing and disorderly conduct. Police officers, courts and prisons should focus on violent crime and dangerous felons, and divert non-violent mentally ill offenders into the mental health system. The federal government should encourage successful models of cooperation between the criminal justice system and mental health providers, such as those in Memphis and San Diego.

[1songbird]

126. Thanks for the info.

I had not seen these comments before. This is very encouraging and I hope that if he is elected he will stand by these comments.

[Tinoire]

107. Great post!

I agree with everything you said 100% and it echoes the sentiments of my friends and family all over the US except for one thing.

And please don't take offense.

I can't stand Clark but am not going to get into that here. Would you please, and any other Blacks, explain to me what you find so fascinating about Clark? I ask because I'm getting the impression that he's picking up an awful lot of Black support and want to understand this.

I don't understand and would appreciate a quick answer if that's not prying too much.

Peace

[1songbird]

124. Clark is a four star General

with exstensive on the ground experience in war. Most people believe that our troops will be in Iraq for awhile so I want someone with the real experience and know-how in dealing with the situation. I don't think we can get out of Iraq anytime soon. Sorry for the late response but I had to get some sleep.

[retyred]

93. That was outstanding

Most Dean supporters claim Dean made a mistake in his choice of words, Dean did make a mistake, but it wasn't a mistake in the words he used to make a point, but to admit that he was willing to court one race at the risk of offending another that he considered already a shoe in for the party vote.

By admitting before hand that what he was about to say pertained to race, he chose to display that he felt that the 2 votes in the bush were worth more then the 1 vote in the hand.

As Al Sharpton said: It's time to go home with the one that brought you to the dance.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[Tinoire]

109. Thanks

A sad mis-calculation and brash words. I honestly don't think he put much thought into it.

Some people said it was a brilliant manouver- if that was a brilliant manouver I really cringe. We need a dialog on race but not on the beauty of inviting the confederate flag to the party.

I am not sure how well my own candidate will navigate that southern mine-field though... I expect yours to do much better and Edwards to do the best.

[RetroLounge]

69. We know what you think. Just an excuse to bash...

Sorry, not playing your games anymore.

:boring:

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

89. I had to wonder the same thing myself

If he wasn't going to apologize he should have stuck with that instead...........................


stacks and stacks of

apologizing was the right thing to do but why couldn't he apologize to the young man who was offended at the debate? Why did he have to wait until it was clear his political neck was on the block?

Now Deans apology is about Dean and nothing else. It's invalid, disingenuous.

[Donna Zen]

94. The AA community

I'm sure that Rove who has tried many times into the Democratic heart is over joyed with the opportunity to provide some leverage to his new meme: The Dems and Repubs are the same about racial issues. Of course the AA community is one of the best informed voting groups in America, they have had to be. And they have proven that they can put their interests to the test by voting every election cycle for all white tickets. Nevertheless, if you lose 10-15% of those votes to this stupid comment, not racist, just stupid, you will lose several states. Couple that with a tax rollback on the middle to lower class and you are looking at a loser.

Except, embrace it, it is all yours.

[Isome]

117. AA community one of the best informed voting groups , they had to be

You know it!

[Kamika]

115. I'm not afraid of it at all. Look at his politics now his words.

Black voters tend to be much more intelligent and have knowledge about issues then white voters.. they most likely can figure out that what Dead did was just a nessecery evil to win the election.

I mean face it, Dean would have never done this if he didn't have to.

You have to look at his politics not what he says. If we only listened to what politicians said Bush would have created a utopia with low taxes, small goverment by now.. but thats not exactly how his politics were.

Think of it, it's because of these confederate flag guys we lose, if we can get them on our side by some simple words but same politics as before.. what's the loss?

People wonder why these guys year after year vote consevrative even though conservatives screw them royally.. well let me tell you, it's in spite they do. In spite of the democratic elitism.
Dean is now a viable candidate for these guys, and the more the other democratic (elitist) candidates trash him the more rural southern votes he'll get.

edit: And I'm not white either (not black though)

[CWebster]

116. You are a Clark diehard and this is little more than flamebait

Dean was actually talking about class more than race, and the symbols used to keep poor whites who are manipulated by them aligned with the Right and against their own best interest.

You or anyone else can or will twist it to seek political advantage or make a issue out of something that doesn't exist.

[ima_sinnic]

121. what a bunch of CRAP

Dean is a revolutionary who is leading the people in taking back our government. He is a true leader who succeeds in mobilizing the masses. Revolution is not for the faint of heart who go ballistic over dumb symbols. He had spent a lot of time in South Carolina (I believe it was) and noticed much preoccupation with the CF. He had the balls to use that metaphor because he knew it was in the front of many people's minds. He is being literal about being "inclusive." I was disappointed that he even felt the need to "apologize" because he really didn't do anything wrong IMO.

Another thread this morning pointed out that he has been invited to address a white supremacist group--I do hope he accepts and uses the opportunity (in his usual creative way) to educate and inform while transcending their philosophy. In his own way Dean is definitely a uniter. I feel that those who want to continue to harp on the CF flag remarks are determined to thwart true progress on matters of race and unity. Much more important than this one small matter, which was actually THE OPPOSITE of racism, more important even than Dean's specific stands on the issues, is the way he is returning the government to the people. His "Declaration of Independence from Special Interests" is revolutionary in & of itself: a pledge to stay free of corporate and moneyed interests, making way for a true government "of, by, and for the people."

[CWebster]

161. I think the real truth is a lot of so-called "liberals"

just don't want to go near the issue of race unless it is in the discussion of politically correct terms. They will defend Affirmative Action (up to a point) and brag about how they support civil rights with the usual gushing about MLK, but when it comes down to disenfranchised Afro-American voters or the agenda of the Black caucus, they are busy pandering for office park Dads and soccer Moms from the affluent suburbs. Only at election time to they address issues of race and class.

[AP]

127. I'm keeping a list of things Dean says about race...

...and I'm trying to figure out what the hell he's trying say with all of this.

Here's a list of EVERYTHING I've heard Dean say about race:

(1) class, not race, should be the criteria for participation in affirmative action programs;

(2) that he thinks he’s the only Democrat to talk bluntly about race (suggesting that the brilliant way Democrats like Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Cuomo, Clinton, Gore, Edwards, Lieberman, etc., have talked about race wasn't the "right" way to talk about it);

(3) his blunt talk about race is actually an allegory about anti-male gender discrimination, and how he fought to help white men get jobs in his administration;

(4) caring about high black incarceration rates is "weepy and liberal" -- drug treatment programs can solve that problem;

(5) he wants to be the candidate "for" people who waive the confederate flag;

(6) civil rights legislation has gone about as far as it can go, and the last frontier for fighting racism is to change your unconscious feelings in hiring discrimination;

(7) when asked at the debate what he had to say to African Americans what he would say to them to show that he wasn't as insensitive to their interests as his confederative flag statement suggested, he told the black man who asked the question what he'd do for poor white southerners; and

(8) it was Edwards, not Sharpton, who convinced him that his comments were wrong -- ie, again, it's the white experience of racism with which he empathizes and he's not so interested in the black experience.

What does all this amount to?

His message is totally focused on white people. He's appealing to white Democrats’ worst instincts about race. Also, I can't believe how condescending this message is if you're black. He can't frame a single view about race that is made from a black perspective.

Making white America think they're the real victims of racism, and having about ZERO understanding of the black experience in America is not moving forward. It's moving backwards.

The way Dean talks about race suggests that he has no interest in winning a single black vote, unless it's the vote of someone who simply has no understanding of what he's saying about race. He talks like he's trying to consolidate the votes of white liberals who THINK they understand race, but their understanding is based on selfishness.

He wants the votes of people who WISH that all they had to do was change their unconscious feelings, rather than make real sacrifices so that society can collectively move forward, because they’re completely unwilling to do anything more than that, and they just might be the kind of people who celebrate thought more than action. They celebrate themselves just for having a thought.

He wants the votes of white people who feel they're the victims of racism, not as members of racist society, but as an individual –- i.e., people who feel like that white man in his office who couldn't get a job because blacks and women get preferential treatment.

[tjdee]

143. I think you and Tinoire have hit the nail on the head with this issue.

I've not said much about this topic, but I think you and Tinoire (and retyred too) make the best case about why this is an *issue* instead of some throwaway thing.

I particularly appreciate your putting all together--I think people like to treat each instance as an individual instance instead of looking at the total picture.

It's understandable that we'd all have different feelings about this, but the intellectual dishonesty I'm seeing in this thread (by a few people) is really something.

(I should say that I'd even be okay with Dean saying these things--I'm not voting for him in the primaries anyway-- if he didn't then turn around and clarify/modify as if he *knows* he's saying the wrong thing, which makes it worse.)

[mzmolly]

156. Would you mind not 'paraphrasing' for Dean when you post your 'list'

Thanks ;)

[leesa]

130. People have reacted to this in a very knee-jerk manner

When I read what he said, I instantly understood what he meant, that we need to come to some sort of accord with these people or we are doomed. He's right. The Southern people embracing this flag or what they consider a symbol of their heredity have been exploited by the RW machine as much as anyone. They have been misled by the lies and hateful rhetoric as much as the Fundies and other people have been. The RW has a powerful machine and they will use it to foment hate...they do it all the time, everywhere. All the pudits have this as their full-time job. They create hate where none may actually exist or where it is misplaced.
Like most of us, the angry white southerners are probably angry at the elite corporatists who have taken their jobs away, paid low wages, and ripped them off chronically,for decades, but the RW machine has them believing that they are angry at the black workers who have jobs...THEIR jobs, or the blacks who are educated...when they probably didn't even want to go to college. The RW plays a powerful hate game. What are the issues? Are they truly bigots or are there misunderstandings that real discourse might dissolve. Has the left been guilty of wrong assumptions as much as the flag-waving southerner? I see this as an excellent opportunity.

Let's face it for once instead of going on with assumptions on both sides. We all want the same thing, we want to be safe and happy. Let's get past the poison of the right wing bigots and see who, if anyone, are bigots and who are just victims of the RW bigotry/hate machine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

131. As an African-American

I wasn't that offended by the comment. Surprised? Yes, but maybe I'm just used to the flag by now.

While I agree with several posters here saying that our party is in danger of losing a good chunk of the black vote, this incident just reminds me that Dean can be, shall we say intemperate, at times. He talks first and backs off second.

That's a scary personality trait for a would-be president.

[tjdee]

135. Ding ding ding! But his supporters just skim over that.

It's really amazing that Dean is making a VERY BAD pattern of doing just what you suggest--and that very few of us think this is an issue.

[blm]

148. Don't worry. Karl Rove has it all on camera.

With Dean the ads just make themselves. Too bad no Dem candidate will play those ads first and spare the Dem party from the humiliation of seeing Dean's lies and gaffes played over and over again for MONTHS.

[AP]

134. A question for DU'ers (white and black) who talk to blacks about Dean

who say they don't mind what Dean said:

I've seen a couple comments making this claim. Have any of you, especially white DU'ers, said, in response to the answer that it wasn't so bad, try to explain why YOU think what Dean said was wrong? Do any white DU'ers have the courage to have an opinion on race which might be farther to the left than the opinion the black person you're talking to might have?

[AP]

185. I thought I'd get at least one stab at answering this question...

[maha]

138. How many red herrings

... can you fit into one post?

I know I care very much of the African Americans become alienated from the Dems. But (1) we've discussed Dean's Confederate flag remark to death already, and (2)the fact is a number of prominent African Americans came out in SUPPORT of Dean's remark. One example:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rice6nov06,1,7780769.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

So what is the problem?

[Isome]

140. When one of the candidates "reaches out" to the NOI...

or, specifically when Al or Carol reach out to the NOI, or the New Black Panthers, and the Democrats say it's okay, and the anger over Jesse's meeting with Louis Farrakhan subsides, then I'll believe the lack of criticism of Dean's olive branch to the confederate battle flag wavers is because of a balanced POV. But, not until then!

Realistically speaking, Carol or Al have a better chance of getting the vote from the two Black groups than Dean has of convincing rednecks (from the North, or South, with or without a southern drawl) to vote for him.

[Cooley Hurd]

144. One post and one post only on this subject...

I knew what Dean was trying to say, albeit clumsily. This is a NON-ISSUE, only fodder for the repigs and party hacks.

Dean is not racist, just a bit naive about politics...

[Isome]

145. This thread doesn't claim Dean is a racist.

But, predictably, people want to see what they want to see, and dismiss everything else as unimportant.

[onecitizen]

149. Look it isn't Dean that abandoned the African-American vote...........

the party has been doing that for years now. Ignoring them. Dean sees no reason why Dems can't reach out to everyone. Not just the south or the north or the east coast or the west coast or the African-Americans or the whites but EVERYONE.

[mitchum]

160. RNC talking point alert- "the party has been doing that for years"!

oh really?

[Isome]

164. Everyone?

When Dean reaches out to the members & supporters of MOVE, then that will be a step towards reaching out to "everyone".

[mzmolly]

150. What is 'The Black Vote'???

Are you saying Black people don't think for themselves? Dont Blacks have differing opinions on the issues? In addition, your assertion that Dean will alienate Black people is unfounded.

*I do realize what you 'tried' to say, but I thought it condescending*

[Isome]

155. You don't know? How sad...

Its counterpart is the "white male vote", which according to a thread on DU (not long ago), the Democrats are losing because of all the special interests (read: non-white issues). You know what's being said.

[mzmolly]

159. So should we campaign based on focus groups? Why can't we address the

issues that affect us all. That is what Dean was saying, and I agree. Were I to post a thread suggesting Sharpton 'alienated' white male voters, I'd be slammed.

This thread is BS flame bait. There are no polls to indicate Dean is alienating 'the black vote' because a handfull of people *of all nationalities* were offended ...

[Isome]

165. How do you equate Africans in America with a focus group?

e o m

[mzmolly]

182. That's what the OP did with his assertion...

e o m

[Alenne]

157. yes we do think for ourselves

That is why 92% of the black people who voted in 2000 voted for Al Gore. Let's not pretend like there is no such thing as the black vote.

[mzmolly]

158. Lets not pretend that Blacks are 'united' in their lack of support for

Dean. In fact polls show, he is in 4th place among African American voters *ahead of Carol M Braun and 4 others*.

Your figure of 92% for Gore is based on the fact that by and large, Blacks are Democrats. I would imagine were Dean the nominee, 92% of blacks will also vote for him.

This thread is 'bait' and it's divisive. It's an attempt to plant seeds of division, just like Sharpton and Edwards tried to do. It's merely a continuation of the rhetoric started by them previously.

[Alenne]

162. This thread is more about the reaction from DU members who support Dean

But that is not what your post was about. Your post was about there not being a black vote and that is the issue I addressed. If you would like to talk about African American support of Dean I am sure there is a post in this thread that addresses it.

[mzmolly]

163. Did you read the OP? The thread has become about Dean supporters

as per ususal. It originated as a 'Dean alientates black voters, and his supporters 'don't care' about it, thread....which is total bullshit BTW.

1. There is no proof Dean alienates 'The Black Vote'

2. The thread is a moot point with out that fact.

I am sick of having my intelligence questioned ... I am tired of having my compassion for my fellow man questioned ... I am tired of having my support for diversity questioned ... I am tired of being openly bashed on DU, because I support Howard Dean.

Do Dean supporters continually question the wisdom/motives of other candidates-supporters? NO.

This is another pathetic attempt to 'call out' Dean supporters as 'stupid, racist, indifferent, and/or uninformed.

[Isome]

166. Indifferent or ignorant yes... the rest of those pejoratives, NO!

Asking what is the "black vote" shows ignorance. Reducing a core group of Democrats, people of African descent, to a "focus group" shows both indifference & ignorance.

Your own posts epitomize what this thread is about.

---

I take that back: uninformed is also accurate, as it pertains to the perspective of Blacks, as a collective.

[mzmolly]

173. My point was that Tyrone ? is not the "Black Vote"

period.

[mzmolly]

175. The OP insinuates that Blacks are united in their offense at this comment

and you call ME indifferent, ignorant and uninformed?!

Are you asserting Black Voters share the same opinion on 'this' issue?

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alenne]

167. I was not responding to the OP

I was responding to your assertion that there is no black vote. I didn't accuse you of anything and didn't question your intelligence or your compassion. I didn't even bring up Dean or his supporters in my original post to you. I can only defend what I posted.

[mzmolly]

170. Thanks, sorry if I'm hypersensitive...

I understood what the OP was trying to say.

My point is that the 'black vote' is as divided in the primaries as is the 'white male vote' KWIM? I think it implied Blacks are sheeple and I resented that the OP pointed to one offeneded individual as 'the black vote'. GRRRRR

OHHHHHHMMMMM

~Peace :)

[CWebster]

152. Supporters of other candidates are using this

to hit Dean--just like their candidates twisted it -- they have no regard for the truth and I have no regard for them.

If it was warranted, it was warranted and it would be a shameful thing, but the truth is there are those using the word, the symbol, out of context of Dean's intent. His intent was that the Right uses these divisive symbols to manipulate. IT WAS NOT SUPPORT OF THE SYMBOL, but look here, Democrats are using the symbol for their own political purposes and it is just a hateful.

[mzmolly]

168. BTW, I'm out of this thread but...wheres your proof Dean alienates

"The Black Vote?"

Had this been a thread that showed Black voters, were not supporting Dean because of his comments, YES I WOULD BE @!*& CONCERNED! Shall I be concerned because I read that ONE or a handful of individual(s) are offended by Dean? NO, I am no more concerned then if I read about one person who didn't like Gore before I voted for him.

In fact, people didn't become offended by Deans remarks, until the remarks were politicized.


In other words, your OP way off base.

Until you demonstrate that Dean (in fact) alienates "The Black Vote" there is nothing to discuss.

Tyrone is (one of a handful of people) who dont like Dean/Edwards/Clark/Kucinich/Sharpton/Braun......................etc.

Shall we find African Americans who are unhappy with Clark and start a thread about his Alienating them? NO, this is flame bait!

In addition, should I post a thread by a Black voter who is not offended and say "phew" thank goodness Dean didn't alienate "The Black Vote?"

[Isome]

169. *lol*

There are Black people telling all of DU that there is concern about the reaction of other Democrats (Dean supporters as well) to the flag flap, and lo' & behold, the response is to demand proof of large numbers. Towards that end, the decision is made to no longer pay attention to what is being said by Black Americans. *lmao*

I suppose nothing short of a special phone hotline set up to mzmolly so she'll know, by golly, that people are concerned, dismayed, taken aback!

[mzmolly]

171. I see broad opinions on this issue in the black community and I dont'

think Tyrone ? makes up "The Black Vote." YOU?

The OP demonstrated that Tyrone is offended and thus he speaks for the Black Community? I find THAT offensive.

[wndycty]

174. So are you saying that others in the Black community don't feel that way?

And if they do feel that way they are not smart enough to understand what Dean was trying to say?

[mzmolly]

176. I'm saying you have not made the case that Black Voters are 'alientated'

by the confederate flag remark, P.E.R.I.O.D!

Blacks/Whites/Latinos were offeneded, or not depending on the individual. At the same time you have to nerve to profess that Dean supporters are insensitive?!

Where is your proof that 'The Black Vote' will become alienated? Might I suggest that 'Black Voters/White Voters/Latino Voters are divided on this issue?

[Isome]

177. Who is Tyrone and why do you bring him up?

I can tell you that in my circle, my family, and my online groups, the majority of Black people are aware of the double standard used to defend reaching out to confederate BATTLE flag wavers, even though most of us are not offended by general gestures of brotherhood. We know if the situation were reveresed, there'd be all manner of outrage.

I'm offended by the continued dismissal of our insight. White people regularly feign ignorance about what offends Black people, and when they're told, they don't believe it. *lol*

[mzmolly]

178. Tyrone is the party the OP noted in his link...

Also, what makes you think I'm white?

Believe this, YOU don't speak for all "Black people"...

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-rice6nov06,1,5053506.story

[Isome]

181. I assumed you were Black... based on another thread...

But now I'm not so sure, especially since you think I speak for Black people. I speak about what I know.

[Isome]

183. Good grief Charlie Brown...

After all that's been said in this thread, your effort to refute the assertion that Blacks are feeling alienated, is linking to an article that doesn't address (in any way) the issue of the double standard cited by many posters. But it does reiterate what the same posters have said.

Reading is fundamental. Why are people averse to doing that on a messageboard? I'm guilty of not being thorough at times, but I will re-read posts to make sure I'm not misunderstanding the issue, especially when it seems an exchange is going around in circles. Here it seems there's been no effort to understand the issue by actually reading the posts. If there had been, the article wouldn't have been used as some kind of trump card. It's sad, really sad.

[mzmolly]

180. Goodbye! This is a non issue and until it is demonstrated as a verifiable

assertion, I see no need to continue this discussion and it's attempt to slam Dean and/or his supporters.

:hi:

[Isome]

187. There's no slam against either...

This is politics; thin skins aren't recommended. Pointing out things that aren't obvious, or are overlooked, isn't slamming or bashing.

I see the goodbye was premature, since you responded (farther up the thread) since then.

[Skinner]

194. I'm locking this.

It's inflammatory.

Skinner
DU Admin