Gen. Wesley Clark in a statistical dead heat with Bush

[wndycty]

I am feeling good about the General right now. His campaign is getting steam and its starting the reflect in the polls and the fundraising. I know we have a long way to go to beat Dean and the others for the nomination, but this is encouraging.

Gen. Wesley Clark in a statistical dead heat with Bush

November 9, 2003 -- Fifty percent of Americans would not vote to re-elect
President Bush, according to a Newsweek poll.

And leading Democratic presidential candidates continue to gain on Bush,
with Gen. Wesley Clark in a statistical dead heat with the president.

Sen. John Kerry, Howard Dean and Sen. Joe Lieberman all trail the president,
but by amounts that are within the poll's margin of error.
-snip-


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/10330.htm

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. CNN highlighted the Newsweek poll a little while ago

When it starts getting airplay, you know Shrub is in trouble. They tried to gloss it over by saying that another poll showed 52% saying they approved of the way he was doing his job. Frankly, that doesn't make sense. Guess the people manipulating the polls got their wires crossed.

[Closer]

2. LMAO

if this had been about DEAN leading the prez, all the clarkettes would be ragging about how we'd credited a NYPOST (rightwing) paper as the source.

God, you gotta love the hypocrisy here. It's just divine.

[wndycty]

5. Say what. . .

. . .by the way have you seen the polls out of South Carolina?

[Mattforclark]

6. Actually

It says it is a newsweek poll, not a NY Post poll. Good news though.

[_NorCal_D_]

8. I can assure you,

Clark has had an impressive lead in a number of polls, often beating bush by 7%. Unfortunately I have yet to see a poll in which Dean leads over Bush.

[wndycty]

9. Basically. . .

. . .certain people are trying to discredit the source, because they can not deal with the facts.

[Zynx]

26. Show me the poll.

I support Clark because I think he has a better chance of beating Bush, but show me the poll because I haven't seen one yet like that.

[wndycty]

55. South Carolina Poll

-snip-
Columbia, SC - Democratic presidential hopeful Wesley Clark plans to discuss national security in a speech this Thursday in South Carolina. The retired Army general who led NATO forces in Europe is at the top of a recent state poll, ahead of US Senator John Edwards of North Carolina. The poll, by American Research Group, shows Clark with 17 percent support and Edwards with 10 percent, despite the fact that Edwards is a South Carolina native and has been campaigning in the state longer.
-snip-

http://www.abcnews4.com/news/stories/1103/108752.html

[Cha]

14. I was thinking...yeah..the nypost

[wndycty]

15. Again its funny. . .

. . .people are seeking to downplay this because we got it from the New York Post, but they refuse to acknowledge the main source of the information which is NEWSWEEK.

[Kahuna]

16. Save it Closer. Don't you get tired..

of being wrong.

[QC]

39. Apparently not.

[SaintLouisBlues]

19. LMAO right back at you

Clark supporters are hypocrites because you predict they'd react a certain way if Dean were ahead in a NY Post poll which doesn't even exist? Say what?

[_NorCal_D_]

3. Great news!

B-):thumbsup:

[mikehiggins]

4. Uh, fellow Clarkistas?

We don't want to be number one right now. Have you noticed what has been going on with Dean, the acknowledged front runner? Let Clark just keep slogging along, win some delegates and keep up the pressure on Bush.

It is possible that this will end up going to the convention to be settled.

[wndycty]

7. Well. . .

. . .I understand your logic, but it is always easier to protect a lead than it is to try to win from the underdog spot. . .so while I don't envy the crap the Dean is going through I would rather be in his position. . .the lead.

[salinen]

10. 4 star

look, i love all 8. lieberman's out. but let's decide to throw it all behind clarke now. he has one advantage. he garners the paranoid vote. that's huge. also, the thug think take are paying time-and-a-half now to foil our strategies. let's fuck them up and all go for one guy. all support. all money. all fight. dean for v.p.?

[wndycty]

11. The General is looking good.

:kick:

[salinen]

12. 4 star

that's "think tank." sorry, i'm a little excited.

[wndycty]

13. I figured as much

It happens to the best of us.

[roguevalley]

17. good news. As for dean, he's a tough man with broad shoulders.

he can take it. I admire his grit. But then, I
admire the grit of anyone who can run for Pressie
in this country. You have to be made of tungsten.

Go, General!

[MIMStigator]

18. Awesome. GO GENERAL

n/t

[Padraig18]

20. Congratulations to my #2 choice!

Dean/Clark Clark/Dean in '04! :thumbsup:

[Clark Can WIN]

21. I agree that we are picking up steam

With every position paper and campaign appearance he is gaining strength, finding his sea legs. I have really been impressed with the strength of his statements lately and his big brass cahones for smacking Bush upside the head with 9/11. Haven't seen any other candidates do that yet.

[Gloria]

57. Gee, just last night, Safire on The News Hour said that Clark is "fading

away" and Mark Shields sat there like a lump and sort of agreed with him with serious look on his face......

[Mz Pip]

22. I find this astonishing

since Clark has been give so little press coverage and what he is given is short snippets followed by snide commentary.

Maybe when he's 20 points ahead of Bush someone will start paying attention. :eyes:

MzPip
:dem:

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. Now that is nothing less than

great news. Clark is only going to get better and better as time goes by. Makes me want to sing that Dewley Wilson song! :)

[Tatiana]

24. Makes me a little nervous

My concern right now is Bush's approval numbers (or DISapproval, if you will). I'd love to see it hit 60% on Iraq and the economy.

As far as Clark goes, it makes me nervous for him to be the front-runner at this point. However, these numbers just show that his campaign has finally gotten into gear and people are responding to his message.

That being said, I'd like to see Clark in a comfortable #2 spot for now and experience a surge during the spring/summer, building enough momentum to carry him into the Democratic Convention and hopefully national election.

[mlawson]

25. I have all but decided to switch to Clark.

As I have said repeatedly, my ONLY criterion is which candidate has the best chance to beat bush. And it appears more and more that, that person is Gen Clark: he is the type of 'standup guy' that white males will vote for, and he can easily get the critical mass of the military votes as well. I think he might be our ticket...

I was supporting Edwards and Dean, but Edwards is just not catching on, and it's almost too late. Dean IMO, will NOT be allowed on the ticket by the DNC/DLC for reasons we might never know about, i.e., inside politics.

These three gentlemen, also IMO, are the only ones who can beat bush next year. I fear that the DNC will install someone OTHER THAN one of them, but we have to wait and see.

[FrenchieCat]

29. Here's another good reason to go CLARK...

For the Democratic party, and in essence for the world to win this one, I believe that Clark must win the Democratic nomination and that his VP pick must be strong on domestic policies and Washington politics and be complimentary to Clark demographically. We must not forget that in order to beat Bush and his Rovenstenian PR media machine and the enormous war chest they will have, we must have the strongest stellar contender available, i.e., Clark. The giant multinational corporations (including the media) won't allow Bush to lose without putting up the fight of their lives. Wes Clark is the only package that Bush cannot match, including likeability and Charisma (Bush's best traits (why, I don't know) very important and key in the US but much discredited by those who should know better). When one reviews the field of the candidates remaining, none will be effective in the way Clark can in beating Bush. Either their Tax package is wrong, their military and foreign experience is lacking, they don't project leadership or they are low in either the likability and/or the Charisma factor. Those who believe that they can have their cake and eat it too (meaning getting rid of Bush and finding a policy Utopia) are not being realistic (although Clark's domestic policies are excellent and most have a better chance getting thru a Republican House and Senate as they would be offered by a nonpartisan). In addition Clark is the only one that can redirect our Military budget spending without being cowed. However, I go back to the number one purpose of this election; to get rid of Bush....anything else would be an extra.

The difference in Clark and the others candidates is that Clark doesn't have to have a bad economy to win. In fact he doesn't even need the war in Iraq to sour too much. What he is offering the country is a new direction altogether that is do-able and rational. He is offering a nuanced America, as it once was. That makes him less susceptible to BushCo media manipulation during the election.

One of the poll questions that has always polled high against Bush is "are we going in the right direction?". The percentages on that question have not favored Bush for a long time.

Wes Clark has the moxie, gravitas and experience that will bring voters in from the widest spectrum in the General Election, including the military (10 million strong in US when you include their families), minorities (in particular Hispanics who he is polling better with than others), security moms, men, Independents/Swing voters, the South, and disenchanted Republicans.

Furthermore, Clark is the only candidate that is a true nonpartisan (just declared a party and has not been politically affiliated)and that increases the coat tails effect needed in the South to win at least a some of the 4 senate seats being vacated by Democrats (Graham/FL, Edwards/NC, Zell Miller/Georgia, Hollings/SC and possibly Breaux/LS), i.e., Southerners may more likely vote a straight Democratic ticket if Clark, a less polarizing southern figure is at the top of it....as there may be less southern "guilt" than if voting for a strict northern partisan on top.

I strongly believe that if Clark doesn't get the nomination, the United States and the entire world will be in for a terrible, terrible time. In addition, the Democratic party will take years to recover. I conclude that based on the fact that if Democrats lose the Presidential election, it would mean also losing some if not all of those Senate seats. That, my friends, will not be pretty picture.

[mlawson]

31. I just hope that Clark won't get the Gary Hart Treatment

by the Dem party. Hart seemed to be coasting to the nomination in 1984, and there was *some* hope that a new face could beat Ronnie. (This was before the sex thing, BTW. That was in 1988.) But all of a sudden, several party bigwigs, such as Tip O'Neil began to push Mondale, the 'fix' was in, and Fritz soared to the nomination.

Now, the beneficiary of the 'fix' next year *might* be Clark, but I greatly fear it will be Kerry (whom I do NOT think could beat bush).

[FrenchieCat]

35. Difference is Clark has no "Monkey Business"...

Plus Clark is undeniably more photogenic and charismatic than Poor tired Kerry. Clark's message is also more interesting to listen to. Kerry sounds so much like what he is, a politician, that unless one is listening intensively, one might walk away without a message. Plus considering that his partisanship and North England roots provides next to zero cross over or southern appeal. It's unfortunate for Kerry, as he was my first pick prior to Clark entering the race. But I guess that's why I switched real quick.....I wanted a sure winner to go against Bush.

I know, I know, appearances are a superficial thing, but it's also one of the few reasons Bush is even looked upon decently by many (his "likeability" factor and the fact that to some he looks "cute"(like a monkey?)).

Notice that clark supporters are more likely than others to post pics of their candidate within their post. Now why would that be?

In America, the things you think shouldn't, count.

[mlawson]

44. No, "Monkey Business" was in 1988.

I am referring to Hart's 'dismissal' in 1984. I really do not think the DNC/DLC has as its top priority, beating bush. There are all kinds of political inside deals and agendas that we know nothing about, and they may determine which candidate gets the DNC funding and other advantages. I HOPE it will be Clark, but who knows?

[jumptheshadow]

33. Excellent point

That's a very good point about Clark's coattails helping us to keep some of those vacated Southern senate seats.

[knight_of_the_star]

27. This is going to be a rather rude surprise

With all the media focus being given to Dean, things are looking like CLARK could win the nom! Sweet! He seems like he's just going to pop up out of nowhere and slam into Bush like a sub and put a torpedo into Bush's battleship just below the waterline!

I can just see it now...

"Admiral Bush, we're takin' on water!"

"See, that shows we're winning because the Democrats are getting desperate!"

[FrenchieCat]

30. The Journalists are starting to get a sense ........

as to what is really going on with Rovenstein and the Corporate media.
read this piece.

NOT SO FAST
By Max Brantley
November 7, 2003

Democratic contender Wesley Clark's campaign has peaked. He won't contest the Iowa caucuses, he'll be blown away in New Hampshire. The Big Mo will then belong to the New Hampshire winner, probably Vermont neighbor Howard Dean, and Mo will carry Dean straight to the nomination.

It is only coincidental (isn't it?) that the media script mirrors almost to the letter the script coming from Republican headquarters.

The Republicans, mindful of the math of the Democratic national convention in Boston in July, are smarter than pack reporters, who are captives of convention more than conspiracy. There's no coincidence in the Republican predictions of doom for Clark and sudden murmurs of admiration for, say, the principled Dick Gephardt. Repubs can read poll numbers. The latest still show Clark as the Democrat with the best chance to beat George Bush. The president enjoyed only a 47-43 lead over Clark in a national sounding last week - before the latest slaughter in Iraq. Republicans want to cripple Clark now.

A true read of Republican sentiment was displayed to me at a Little Rock party Saturday night. I asked a very prominent Republican his preferred Democratic nominee. With a jack-o-lantern grin and a Nixonian V-for-victory gesture, he trumpeted, "Howard Dean's my man!"
I don't necessarily share his belief that Dean would be easily dispatched by Bush on account of perceived liberalism. But I do believe Democrats in the end should pick the candidate most likely to win, not invoke a strict party litmus test, as the Republicans would like them to do with Clark. And, finally, this race isn't over
---------
Follow today's script because you must. Just remember that the longer view says it's not over for Wes Clark, or any other leading Democrat, when the primary votes of a tiny New England state are counted in January.
http://www.arktimes.com/max/110703brantley.html

"IT'S THE DEMOCRACY AND YOUR WAR, STUPID!"
A REAL MILITARY HERO TELLS A GENUINE INTELLIGENCE FAILURE

[HFishbine]

28. Good News for Dems

The poll is reported here:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/990895.asp?0cv=KB20&cp1=1

Clark: 45
Bush: 48

Dean: 45
Bush: 49

MoE: +/- 3%

[DemExpat]

32. It's looking good for the General, and that lightens my heart!

I also feel very comfortable about his chances no matter what happens, because of the person that Wes is....

Go, Clark!!!! :kick:

DemEx

[CWebster]

34. He was fired from the Pentagon

they will make easy work of ripping him to shreds...


;-)

[FrenchieCat]

36. Webster, why do I always have to clean up your

propaganda?????

Shelton at General Clark's Change of Command
http://www.dod.gov/news/May2000/n05032000_20005033.html
"Your ability to carry out the multitude of day-to-day activities, along with major operations, proves once again that you are equal to any task," the chairman said. "You are responsible for a very vital and dynamic area of the world.  You have never let us down, and I know that you never will.
"In terms of the honesty and integrity of most politicians, Clark is probably in the 99th percentile," says one who observed the Shelton-Clark spats (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/031013/whispers/13whisplead.htm
AFTER ACTION REVIEW FOR KOSOVO, OCTOBER 14, 1999
In The Joint Statement on the Kosovo After Action Review dated October 14, 1999 it appears that both Cohen and Shelton believed
the buildup of NATO ground combat power in the region (e.g., Task Force Hawk in Albania, allied peace implementation forces in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and visible preparations for the deployment of additional forces), combined with the increasing public discussion of the possibility of and planning for the use of ground forces, undoubtedly contributed to Milosevic's calculations that NATO would prevail at all costs.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct1999/b10141999_bt478-99.html

[retyred]

51. Why waste your time?

CW knows all this and just wants to rain on our parade. Enjoy the moment.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[FrenchieCat]

37. No, the work will not be easy....since it's a 1/2 truth....

From a Dept. of Defense News Report, May 2000:
(In the Public Domain)

..."Army Gen. Henry H. Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, opened the Stuttgart ceremony and presented European Command
with the Joint Meritorious Unit Award, the highest recognition
awarded to a joint organization.

"Operation Allied Force is certainly the most well known of your
accomplishments -- as well it should be," the chairman said. "Allied
Force was the largest air campaign in Europe in over 50 years, the
most precise bombing campaign in history. It set the conditions for a peace settlement."

Shelton also acknowledged a number of the command's other equally
important operations in Bosnia, Turkey, Liberia. "Your ability to
carry out the multitude of day-to-day activities, along with major
operations, proves once again that you are equal to any task," the
chairman said. "You are responsible for a very vital and dynamic area of the world. . You have never let us down, and I know that you never will."

Cohen saluted both generals in his address before EUCOM troops and
guests. He said Ralston, who will guide the command in the dawn of
the 21st century, possesses the same warrior strength and diplomatic
skill of his predecessor.

"In Gen. Wes Clark," Cohen told the audience, "America found a
scholar, a soldier and a statesman -- a scholar who understands the
forces of history on our time, a soldier of unquestioned courage ., a statesman whose influence has been felt from the Americas where he
helped to guide the fight against drug barons, to Dayton, where his
counsel helped end the bloodletting in Bosnia."

Cohen praised Clark and the command for their part in NATO Operation
Allied Force. He announced that he has proposed the creation of a
Kosovo campaign medal. "No one should ever doubt either your service
or your success," he said. "Faced with an adversary who manufactured
a vicious, humanitarian nightmare, you responded with compassion and
speed to relieve human suffering."

The secretary awarded Clark with his fifth award of the Defense
Distinguished Service Medal. The award citation credited Clark with
leading EUCOM through the entire spectrum of military operations from warfighting to peacekeeping to humanitarian relief.

Cohen also presented Clark's wife, Gertrude, with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Award for Distinguished Public Service. The award cited her for more than 30 years of volunteer service to the men, women and family members of America's armed forces and those of the nation's allies...."

http://www.dod.gov/news/May2000/n05032000_20005033.html

[DemExpat]

40. I'm a fan of yours, Frenchie.....

Thanks for the vigilant cleanups!
:-)

:hi:

DemEx

[Jackhammer Jesus]

41. I don't think it should be of any consequence

unless someone is able to present legitimate reasons, which has yet to be done. All they can do now is insinuate that Clark is responsible for some unspeakable transgression. Shelton ought to explain his comments too - if he's so concerned about Clark seeking the nomination, why doesn't he let us know what the problem was?

They key word, though, is SHOULD - the lack of specifics obviously hasn't stopped any media whores from bringing the subject up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. General Shelton

has an ego problem. He wanted to command the Kosovo War and Clark got the job. Also, Clark's military contemporaries thought Clark was too "cerebral...too intellectual" and it made them uncomfortable. Translates to....they felt STUPID while in his presence. :7

Here is a great article about it. This tells you a lot about Clark, the man.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795

[Jackhammer Jesus]

45. That's a very good read.

Looked at it earlier - definitely gives some insight into a few baseless accusations that have been made about Clark.

The following was very telling, in regard to Shelton:

"One of the Pentagon's chief complaints at the time was that Clark was on television too often during the Kosovo war. Shelton told Clark, "Get your f——g face off the TV. No more briefings, period.""

"Shelton tried to keep Clark from attending the NATO summit while Clark was conducting a NATO war."

Sounds like a textbook case of jealousy to me. :P

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. Yup,

I agree. SOOOOOOO, now, when I hear ANY military personnel bad mouth the General, I am going to write it off to professional jealousy or intellectual intimidation. One would think they would be THANKFUL to have such an intelligent man leading them. sheesh.

[Clark Can WIN]

50. Of course they felt stupid

Perfectly valid feelings Mr. Shelton. You were correct to feel that way. Perhaps that's why Shelton is such a big Bush fan. Intellectual soul mates.

[Donna Zen]

38. Shhhhh!

The news media is not permitted to talk about anything Clark. Major foreign policy speech...outting of PNAC...calling bush on 911 accountability...forgetta bout it! We must obey...Big Brother loves you.

BTW, our troops in the hospital in Germany need warm clothes. A Day of National Service to donate has been called. Please pm me if you want more details.

So tell me about the 87 billion again, and again.

[CMT]

43. so Clark, Dean, Lieberman, and Kerry are all within the moe

in the poll, very good news indeed.

[FrenchieCat]

47. Not so loud......

even in Bangladesh they know who is leading "the who can beat Bush question"....they are probably all sitting around with their fingers crossed....hoping Clark will get the nod.

The Daily Star in Bangladesh. http://www.thedailystar.net/2003/11/10/d31110011818.htm

[Bread and Circus]

48. Clark leading in USA today poll?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-10-13-poll-political-questions.htm

also, I heard on NPR he was ahead of Bush by 2 points but
technically tied within MOE. This was also in a USA today
poll released today (unless I heard wrong).

Does anyone have a link to that?

[robbedvoter]

49. There's only one poll: Clark leads in match ups - electability

Newsweek LIES about it (says Boo-Boo bears does best in spite the numbers), AP is evasive (numbers, no names), NY Post is truthful (shockingly!). All the reporta you hear are about this same poll.
Important thing is - Clark gained 3 points since the last Newsweek poll and improved his electability. Boo-Boo bear went up a point but elecrability stays the same. Soooo, this primary ain't a done deal then?

[Bread and Circus]

52. Thanks friend...`

But I was listening on NPR tonight saying USA today
had a new poll where Clark actually got 2 more points
than Bush in a head-to-head matchup. Perhaps I am wrong
or maybe it won't be officially released until tomorrow.

I will have to find it if it comes out.

This is all I have for now:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-10-13-poll-political-questions.htm

-- on edit -- this poll has new data in it which is just
Bush stuff, all the dem candidate stuff is old if I am reading
correctly.

[GOPBasher]

53. I'm so glad this is looking good, even after the

news of the robust growth in the economy last quarter. Perhaps people in a America are waking up to a simple fact: They were lied to; there are no weapons of mass destruction.

[MODemocrat]

54. This pleases me , and I'm a Dean Supporter

Anyone who can beat Bush will be just fine with me. I've been a Dean supporter almost since his entering the race, but, I'll definitely be there with bells on for the nominee.

[Orangepeel]

56. So are Kerry, Dean and Lieberman

Good for all of them.

[tritsofme]

58. I still maintain that polls this far out mean nothing.

Its good news, but I wouldnt take it to mean too much.

Around this time in 1983 both Mondale and Glenn were beating Reagan 50-42

Bush was crushing Cuomo 60-25

And Clinton's approval rating was hovering around 50%, albeit he had a healthy lead on Dole.

[tedoll78]

59. Dean or Clark..

it's totally sweet that they're both within reach. Wasn't Al Gore within 4% of Bush on the eve of the election in 2000? With the Soros money ($75 million!!!) for getting-out-the-vote in 19 key states - our chances next year look wonderful.

I wonder how the candidates are doing against Bush state-by-state..