Every attack on Howard Dean makes me love him more

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

I've been a Dean supporter for a few months now, but I've certainly tried to keep an open mind, and I would, with a smile on my face, vote for any of the other eight candidates over Bush. I have also stayed out of all of the candidate bashing (well OK I've made a couple of comments about Lieberman, but that's it) since I find it a little grating and counterproductive. It's Bush who I'm interested in beating, not my fellow Democrats.

My perception is that Dean, Clark, and Kerry seem to take the majority of the attacks on this board. I have no idea why people engage in this foolishness Here's why:

Every time I read a post where Dean is attacked, it makes me even more emotionally attached to him. It strengthens my resolve to support him. It makes me love him, the same way the teenaged girls on "Ed Sullivan" loved the Beatles.

Obviously this is a public board and people can say what they want, but just remember, negative posts may be having the opposite effect than intended.

I love you all.

[caledesi]

1. I love you all too. Dean is a winner! n/t

[jsw_81]

2. Same here

It was sickening to see the other candidates take Dean's comments on the flag out of context and imply that he was racist. They really are desperate and pathetic, especially Edwards. The whole episode just makes me support Dean even more, and I'll definitely send him some money when I can afford it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

103. hmmm.interesting

the very first person i saw take offense at Dean's comment was a dem black commentator on one of the newsees. IIRC, he said "what the heck was that about? Come on!"

i guess he took it out of context as well?

Just because some Dean wants this to not be an issue doesn't mean it isn't.

de-nile is not just a river. of course it is a symptom of unconditional love.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. What'd Bush say? The more they attack us- the more successful we are

whatever.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

4. An interesting take

I didn't say anything to the effect that increased attacks on Dean equal a successful campaign, or anything of the sort.

[whirlygigspin]

17. Yes indeed, Amen sister!

I for one was sickened to see see Kerry & the rest
exploit age old racist politics in order to score points
politically.

For that alone, they deserve to lose.

[robsul82]

5. Every attack, every "Dean can't win..."

I just take a gander at SNL's 1991 skit Campaign 92: The Race to Avoid Being the Guy Who Loses to Bush, and smile.

Later.

RJS

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

6. Tee hee

I know it. Good point.

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. the disconnect comes because some Dean supporters view any

discussion, even any notation of his mistakes as an attack.

yesterday i read someone arguing that the flag gaf was not clumsy. i guess he or she had not yet heard that 'clumsy' was Dean's expression of the mistake. my terms were hamhanded and amateur, both synonomous terms yet the Dean supporters went ballistic when i said so.

so we have a situation where people are using very similar terms and even the same term as the candidate and getting whompped for it. it's as though these supporters have no independant ability to recognize a weakness unless Dean does so first and that's scary.

unconditional support or __love__ as you put it has no place in government. it's the kind of zombie-like support you find for bush at FR. he can do no wrong in their eyes and look where that's gotten us. that's lemming-ish, over the cliff thinking and while even if i felt that way, i would never admit it publicly, i'm grateful to see it out so it can be recognized for what it is.

[Hep]

48. Reaching

It wasn't Dean fans who decided that every criticism, no matter how valid, is an attack. It was the kerry and gep people who whined that Dean was "attacking" them for their IWR votes.

[bread_and_roses]

72. on target

"unconditional support or __love__ as you put it has no place in government. it's the kind of zombie-like support you find for bush at FR. he can do no wrong in their eyes and look where that's gotten us. that's lemming-ish, over the cliff thinking and while even if i felt that way, i would never admit it publicly, i'm grateful to see it out so it can be recognized for what it is."
Every candidate should be examined with a critical eye; to do otherwise is to abdicate one's responsibility as a citizen in a democracy.

[Hep]

73. which is interesting

considering I haven't seen any of the Kerrycorps Dean Bashers criticise Kerry for ANYTHING. I hope everyone is being consistent.

[bread_and_roses]

82. I hope so too

and to be clear, I am not "Kerry-corp" (for one thing I am not a Dem won't be voting in the primary, and don't "have" a candidate-I don't like any of them much, to be honest) and for the record I have criticized Kerry's IWR vote, which I consider unconscionable.

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. i guess that means you're new here?

the Kerry wars happened last year. i barely survived. you think it's bad now? sweet tea! that was before any civility rules and i was a low poster.

[mbali]

93. A flipside of the Clinton bashers

Many of Dean's followers remind me of the Clinton haters.

Those folks hated the Clintons so much that they were absolutely blind and deaf to even the remotest suggestion of anything good in them. Their hatred was so visceral and all-consuming that it made them completely unreasonable and eventually caused them to overplay their hand to such an extend that Clinton beat them every time.

Some of Dean's supporters are the flipside of this kind of blind obsession. The slavish, fawning and sometimes sexual tone of some of the praise of Dean is bizarre, to say the least. In their eyes, Dean can do no wrong, regardless how badly he performs. In fact, his missteps are further proof to them of his utter infallibility. And even the mildest criticism of him is greeted with a defense so hysterical as to call into question the common sense of some of his true believers.

Sometimes, when I read the "Ooooh Howie's so cool and wise and big and strong" posts, I just want to scream "GET A GRIP, PEOPLE! HE'S A POLITICIAN - NOT BOBBY SHERMAN!"

[TLM]

121. SOunds like a good description of the Dean Bashers...

"Those folks hated the DEAN so much that they were absolutely blind and deaf to even the remotest suggestion of anything good in DEAN. Their hatred was so visceral and all-consuming that it made them completely unreasonable and eventually caused them to overplay their hand to such an extend that DEAN beat them every time."



"GET A GRIP, PEOPLE! HE'S A POLITICIAN - NOT BOBBY SHERMAN!"

So in other words it bothers you that Dean has so much support and that support is so much stronger than support for Kerry or Clark?

[chimpymustgo]

129. Get a grip..he's not Bobby Sherman!

I had stayed out of this thread, fearing the cult-like implications of the title. But Mbali, it was worth wading in the water for that line alone.

Thanks for getting it.

[Renew Deal]

7. You want love. I will give you love. Dean is a former DLC whore.

:grouphug: :hug:

Just giving you more to love.

[TexasMexican]

8. Definately Dean

Dean is definately better than the other candidates.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

10. DLC Whore

[eileen_d]

11. Hey, is that one of Dean's advisors?

Foreign policy no doubt.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

14. Wow

Your biting and insightful barb has just made me pick a new candidate!

[eileen_d]

15. Pick whomever you choose!

You posted a joke picture and I posted a joke back. Hello? Sense of humor?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

18. Sorry

You might have noticed that this thread has not been going as well as I had hoped.

[eileen_d]

19. Well, Kerry supporters are having a bad day

GD is sometimes the "bad mood" room. I'm sorry too. I actually think that picture is funny.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

22. The picture was a gift

I have no idea who the guy is or where he is.

I'm sorry about what happened with Kerry's campaign, but hopefully it will help. Believe it or not most of us Deanies like Kerry fine (as well as the other candidates) and just want to beat Bush --- there has definitely been a lot of rage in the air though.

[bearfartinthewoods]

39. you don't know who he is yet you felt free to post his picture on the web?

un-freaking believable....
what the hell is happening to us?

some poor schlup, falls asleep and someone takes his picture and you post it on the web to make fun of him. there is no respect left in this country for privacy or sensitivity for our fellows.

i ask you to please reconsider and remove the picture.

[Hep]

41. Oh God

Because God knows, a picture of you sleeping is political homicide!

Calm down. Next you'll be telling me not to share this link with people:

http://www.cinecon.com/starwarskid/starwarskid.wmv

[bearfartinthewoods]

43. no, i won't calm down

what in the hell did this guy do to deserve that picture being used as a joke?

for a moment, try and put yourself in his shoes. how would you feel if an extremely unflattering picture of you was posted on the web to mock you?

[Hep]

51. No need to be uptight

what in the hell did this guy do to deserve that picture being used as a joke?

He fell asleep in front of someone with a camera. It isn't obvious?

for a moment, try and put yourself in his shoes. how would you feel if an extremely unflattering picture of you was posted on the web to mock you?

I wouldn't give a damn. I fell asleep at the tail end of a party once. They drew cat whiskers on my face and took pictures.

BIG DEAL. Go buy a sense of humor. HE doesn't need to you battle for him. It's a funny picture.

OMG! This kid is going to be scarred for life!

[bearfartinthewoods]

57. so because you don't care,.....

you assume that no one else would either? well i WOULD care if a picture of me was taken from my sight and posted elsewhere.

could that possibly mean that there are divergent opinions on this?
if there are divergent opinions wouldn't the considerate thing, given that we don't know how he'd feel about it, to not do it?

[Hep]

59. Not up to me

you assume that no one else would either? well i WOULD care if a picture of me was taken from my sight and posted elsewhere.

Tough! Get over it. Life's rough these days. If such a picture causes damage, then you have recourse. If it's a pic of you sleeping, well, learn to laugh at yourself once in a while. One thing we DON'T need is rule by the humorless.

could that possibly mean that there are divergent opinions on this?
if there are divergent opinions wouldn't the considerate thing, given that we don't know how he'd feel about it, to not do it?

YEah, what we need is to be MORE PC.

[TLM]

123. Why I'd feel like a truly great example of leadership

at least that's according to Clark...

[drfemoe]

42. Trace the site

it comes from
http://www.audax.uk.net/el/index.htm (photo #41)


.... I see your point .. but when someone posts them on the www, aren't you pretty much saying, "I don't care who sees them." ?

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. is there a difference between "i don't care who sees them" and i don't

care what they do with them? if it's okay to take it and use it as a joke would it be OK to post a caption with the pic? what about some creative photoshopping?

what if someone posted their kids pics on a website to share with family and someone got cute with them? is that OK?

the web is a lawless place which means we all need to behave responsibly towards each other to try and keep it a human place as well.

i'm just suggesting we all walk a few feet in the other guys shoes before we do things like this.

[Hep]

52. Unbelievable

Has anyone ever gone back through their posts here and wondered why the hell they made a big deal out of nothing?

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. wow...now you are not only the judge of what the guy in the photo wants

but the judge of what is important to me as well.

personal privacy is VERY a very important issue to me. it comes from the same "place" that my opposition to sneak and peek searches and library serches comes from. all the intrusions into our privacy do not come from the government.

if this isn't an issue for you...fine but, please don't try and tell me what is and isn't an issue of relevance to me.

if you suddenly came across a pic of yourself on the web and it was photoshopped to include an I love bush" sign, would that upset you?

it's just a joke right?

[Hep]

61. You're the only one

making a big deal out of this! IF the guy cared, would the pic still be up? What do you know about this story? Maybe you should ask the guy if he's bothered before you start whining on his behalf.

if you suddenly came across a pic of yourself on the web and it was photoshopped to include an I love bush" sign, would that upset you?

it's just a joke right?

Yep. EVERYONE and I mean EVErYONE who knows me knows how I feel about Bush. Anyone who doesn't know me doesn't matter. They can't do worse than I've already done to myself.

[Wednesdays]

79. No, he's not...

If I had a pic of someone I didn't know, out of politeness (and to avoid copyright infringement), I would get permission to post first.

[Hep]

80. Whatever!

Of course, if you didn't know them, how would you contact them? And also, what do you know about this picture in particular. Do you know if he gave permission for it to be put on the web? Do you know if his wife took it or a stranger? Don't hold back! Share the background information.

[Wednesdays]

87. I just err on the side of caution.

You don't. Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

[Hep]

91. No worries

My feathers aren't ruffled! I appreciate your input. And I don't disagree that erring on the side of caution is a good practice. I'm just asking about this particular case. Asking the other person, really.

[bearfartinthewoods]

99. i thank you for making my point

since nothing is known about this picture it's common decency should tell us not to use it unless you don't give a flying fleep about other people's feelings or privacy.

since we don't know who took it or how it made it's way to the web, why not just not use it? why is this such a big deal to you? i know why i care, because it goes against my grain to see some on exploit or take advantage of people who can't defend themselves but i'm unclear what position you are promoting?

freedom to be make fun of anonymous people? well, now, that's something to go to the boards about for sure.....

[Hep]

109. Still wrong

We can easily make an educated guess about it's origins if we visit the site. And we can reasonable assume that the guy in the pictyure has seen it, laughed about it, and forgotten about it. It's a guy sleeping. Maybe you are anti-sleep. It's not for me to worry about. It's not even embarrasing. It's certainly not humiliating.

It's NOT a big deal! This is certainly not something you need to latch onto as your Big Cause of the Day, although the break in Dean Bashing is refreshing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

111. but the original poster said "I have no idea"

"The picture was a gift " and " I have no idea who the guy is or where he is." which hardly denotes any research. why would you 'assume' away another person's 'rights' not to be used as a joke?
just as the 'default' is all, as you reminded me of elsewhere, why shouldn't the default be to assume the person might object? after all, NOT posting it doesn no harm whatsoever while posting it might.
why not go with a sure bet of not hurting anyone's feelings.

also why do you assume he doesn't find it embarrassing? it certainly isn't flattering to say the least. you might not find a similar shot of yourself embarrasing but you don't get to make that judgement for another person.

nor do you get to presume to tell me what causes i should find worth supporting. i'm more than comfortable promoting common courtesy and repect.

finally, i ask again, what position you are promoting? the freedom to make fun of anonymous people? how about expounding on that cause some more since i'm having trouble getting your point. is every picture ever published on the web fair game to any purpose by any person or can you find any line that shouldn't be crossed?


and please...don't say you don't care because you thought it was funny. if i were religious i might pray God protect us from a world where anything goes as long as someone thinks it's funny.

[Hep]

113. Wow, the hearts on the sleeve isn't it?

It's very touching.

The source of the picture was posted, and it clears it all up. WHat else can I say?

Making fun of anonymous people? I'm all for it.

And I'll even give you the ammo:

One of these guys is me: http://www.sorryaboutdresden.com

[TLM]

124. Can I make a suggestion for you bearfart....

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. i'm not hysterical

i just have a keen sense of what i believe is right and wrong and the thoughtless, inconsiderate explotation of a stranger for the sake of a lame joke falls into the later category.

[Hep]

92. Can we hold you to that?

i just have a keen sense of what i believe is right and wrong

I hope I can find this thread next time the candidate bashers have their tea party.

[bearfartinthewoods]

102. please do, although i fear we may disagree

on the definition of the word bash. i've asked several people for a definition without luck.

[Hep]

110. yeah, funny how that works

I asked months ago when people were going off on dean for what I thought was criticizing Kerry's IWR vote. I mean, Kerry voted FOR IWR, that's a fact. And I think it was the wrong choice. And I openly criticized him for it. And suddenly I'm a Kerry basher. This was what, August?

Suddenly, Kerry takes the offensive and the definition for Bash gets incredibly more strict.

I mean, I resolved to accept every criticism as a bash, because of that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. i take a different tact...

if a criticism is based on fact, as your criticism of Kerry's IRW vote, then it's a criticism. if a criticism is based on a lie, it's a lie.

i'm struggling with a definition of bashing. like so many words who's traditional meansings have been warped, it's a toughie.

if we go by your definition, discussion is fruitless because it devolves into 'you're bashing' "am not" "are too" silliness. since the purpose of this board is discussion i don't think your definition is constructive.

if we go by the dictionary, the closest application would be to hit.

i swear...i have never bashed any candidate.

[ibegurpard]

78. So alert on it oh vaunted quoter of the rules

I'm sure there must be a DU rule somewhere about posting pictures of anonymous, unknown people without their consent.

[bearfartinthewoods]

85. yes, actually there is. So it's me and Admin who object.

Do not steal someone else's bandwidth by posting images that are hosted on another website. Democratic Underground is a high-traffic website, so posting images from other sites will cause their server load to increase dramatically, and might even cost the website owner money. If you wish to post an image from another website, you must contact the owner of the other website to get their consent

[Renew Deal]

21. lol

I think that's Kerry's former manager.

[robsul82]

24. That's Jim Jordan...

...right after Kerry said, "Step into my office, Jim...'CAUSE YOU'RE FUCKIN' FIRED!"

Later.

RJS

[AWD]

65. Seven chipmunks twirlin on a branch

Eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch.

[whirlygigspin]

32. he's listen to Gephardt speak

[TLM]

125. LOL!

[Scott Lee]

89. Operative word being FORMER

'nuff sed on that one.

[Renew Deal]

118. I agree...

I was just having some fun with her.

[TLM]

122. And Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman are all current DLC members...

Yet Dean gets attacked by their supporters for being a past member who broke with the DLC.

[Jackson4Gore]

9. Why must there be a post like this daily?

I see a post just like this everyday. Seriously, who cares if you get more attached to him. People are not going to stop attacking him. It's called politics.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

12. I'M SO SO SORRYYYYY!!!!!

that you had to be assailed by the sight of my thread title. Then, secondly, I'm sorry that you had to read my post. Third, I'm sorry that you had to read all subsequent posts. Finally, I'm sorry that you had to make your own reply to this thread. How HORRIBLE of me!

[Cocoa]

13. Every time Dean calls other dems cockroaches

I like other dems more.

Every time he makes scurrilous charges of gay bashing in the Gephardt campaign, I like Gephardt more.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

16. It's really funny

How I can say that attacks on Dean make me like him more, and people respond by attacking him.

I think the entire practice of candidate-bashing is pretty self-defeating. But like I said, it's a free country, go nuts.

[Cocoa]

23. I think Dean's tactics have soured the primaries

hey, it's politics, and his tactics have worked for him. More power to him.

Maybe his tactics have done the party some good somehow, by shaking things up or leading the others to attack Bush more forcefully. I don't know if it's true, but I'll grant it's possible.

But that doesn't change my observation that Dean's tactics have created some bad feelings.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

25. No argument there

"But that doesn't change my observation that Dean's tactics have created some bad feelings."

No argument there.

[drfemoe]

31. Dean has shaped the race

and will continue to do so imo. ;)

They bring lemons and Dean makes lemonade .. :toast:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

33. actually...

more like a prop lemonade for a display at a department store. Has the appearance of being full of lemonade, but when you look inside it's empty. You realize that the contents are just in the outer shell of the
glass. Yummy, lemonade rhetoric.

:)

TWL

[NewYorkerfromMass]

53. Touche! ...hope more see this post. eom

[Cocoa]

66. at "Rock the vote"

they played Dean's video, which was very good, very slick and inspiring.

But then they went back live to the candidates, and Dean looked kind of small, like he really doesn't back up the image.

[TLM]

126. Prop lemonade.... ???

And you wonder why your message doesn;t connect with the people?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

131. huh?

It was a reference to the post I REPLIED to..

You've never seen fake drinks in a display at a store or similar?
Or you've never seen those "drink cooling" glasses that have liquid in the shell of the glass(which you freeze or chill so the drink stays cold inside) that look like the are full until you look inside to see that it is just an ILLUSION.

TWL

[jsw_81]

20. Scurrilous charges?

Gephardt's goons attacked that young man and called him a faggot. The whole incident was caught on tape.

[Cocoa]

27. the tape is new to me

that changes everything.

I called them scurrilous because the last I heard, there was no corroboration at all.

If there's a tape, then I take it back. I'll call Gephardt's campaign and demand that staffer be fired, just like Gephardt promised he would be.

[bearfartinthewoods]

47. i saw a tape of the Dean guy at the press op but that's it.

do you have a link or some proof that there is tape of the rest of the alledged incident? if it exists, i'm suprised it hasn't been all over the tube since that would be dynamite....

[Hep]

54. dynamite?

For whom?

[blm]

74. That video tape showed nothing of the kind.

And the campaign worker for Dean never produced an audio tape himself even though he was taping Gep at the time.

[bearfartinthewoods]

88. as i thought .......so this is just more BS from someone in the Dean camp

edited so as to not broadbrush the entire Dean camp, some of whom i hold in the highest regard, with the actions of one member.

my apologies.

[Hep]

95. To quote you

i just have a keen sense of what i believe is right and wrong

Is it right or wrong to call out the entire Dean camp because of one person's error?

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. you are absolutely correct...i forgot,,,the default is "all". i will edit

[Cocoa]

104. speaking for myself...

I have a strong negative impression of Dean supporters, and even Dean himself, based on just a few Dean supporters' posts. I know it's not fair or rational, and I try to work against it, but it's a fact that it has that effect.

It would help if some of the many better, fairer Dean supporters would jump on dishonest posts like this. It would make it clear that Dean supporters don't condone lying about Gephardt.

[bearfartinthewoods]

105. i agree and share your problem

i know he may be our nominee and if so, it's my duty to work for him but it's hard to get the bitter taste out of my mouth that comes from swallowing the stuff that has gone on here, in his name.

i keep thinking about that old parable about the apple not falling far from the tree and wondering what it is about Dean that attracts such rabid supporters willing to engage in such sleazy tactics.

we have to try and get beyond that. but i agree, it would be easier if there was some sort of self policing within the Dean camp though.

ON EDIT...i want to retract the statement about it being my duty to work for Dean. i'm not saying i won't but i'm not going to elevate it to a duty.

[MercutioATC]

30. He didn't call them cockroaches.

He used a well-known figure of speech and said that he's shine a light on Congress and they'd scatter like cockroaches. That's a far cry from calling them cockroaches.

You don't have to like him, but intentionally misquoting him isn't going to get you anywhere.

[paulk]

55. yeah - there's a world of difference between

"like cockroaches" and "cockroaches".

[Hep]

71. Remedial English

Let's take a look at the quote, shall we?

...going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

As you can see it's actually the scurrying that's being compared to tat of a cockroach. You see, some intelligent, OBJECTIVE individuals have an image of little bugs scurrying away when light falls upon them. And when the simile was made, that's the image that it conjured.

Other people don't like Dean and are willing to allow their grasp of the language to lapse in order to reinforce their deep rooted, cynical perception of the man. Even to the point of unveiling their own perception of congress as a bunch of vile pests.

That is to say that your interpretation of the comments is really more an INDICATOR of what you think than anything else. Either way, Dean just used simile, and you just got it wrong like much of the rest of the Dean Bash- uh, critics.

[MercutioATC]

115. If I say that you can "swim like a fish", am I CALLING you a fish?

Please. They're two different things, entirely.

[bearfartinthewoods]

107. no he didn't call them cockroaches

he said he'd make them act like cockroaches. just the thing for a man who may be the head of the minority party in both houses to say.

i'm sure all the pubbies and dems will never think of that line as he sends his initiatives to congress. i'm sure he will get their full support on the campaign trail as well.

oh yes...let me campaign with the guy who intends to make me scurry like a cockroach.

to quote the Dr. "why do i do things like that?"

good question doc...

[Hep]

37. WHen he does it for the first time

let me know. He's never called congress cockroaches.

[Skwmom]

44. Same here. e/o/m

[Gephard]

26. Dean will doom the Dems

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

28. He is the devil!

He hates babies too!

[robsul82]

29. "Eeeeeeevil...

...like the FRU-ITS, of the DEV-IL...EEEEEEEEEVIL!"

Later.

RJS

[polpilot]

35. Dr. Dooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dean '04...

[WilliamPitt]

77. Learn to spell your name

[Hep]

81. NO

It'll ruin the best part of his posts!

[Scott Lee]

90. Dean eats baby kittens!

And doesn't put his hand over his heart when he says the Pledge, neither!

[Lexingtonian]

34. So...

How do you define "fanatic"? What about "cult"?

:D

[jonnyblitz]

36. clark supporters. n/t

[eileen_d]

49. NOT.

All candidates have rabid fans, but lots of Clark supporters I've heard from really have their head on their shoulders. Same with Dean supporters, although I admit I have a harder time understanding their admiration for their candidate.

[RetroLounge]

38. Thanks for this post. I feel the same way.

Not only does my support increase, but so do my donations...

[drfemoe]

40. And that's not All

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/11/politics/11KERR.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=
...
Mr. Jordan left Mr. Kerry's home after what was described by campaign officials as a tense confrontation and flew back to Washington.
...
At one point, another participant said, Mr. Kerry — who could be heard eating his supper over the speakerphone as he conducted the meeting — blamed the news coverage for his problems.

"We're doing well, but nobody's hearing it," Mr. Kerry said, according to the aide. "We're not breaking through. We need to do something to shake things up and make people look at us again."
...
Asked about the change in the Kerry camp at a news conference in Iowa on Monday morning, Dr. Dean declined to comment, saying only, "I have enough trouble keeping up with what's happening in my own campaign." ...

-------
Do you ever notice that Dean's campaign has no unnamed "campaign officials" or "participants" or "aides". Don't they always put their name on the line when they talk about Dean?

And didn't Kerry just pull a page from RNC strategy .. blame it on the media?

-------
Do I 'enjoy' seeing this happen to Kerry? Not really. I wish he had more integrity and substance so we wouldn't have to see this... but I have no control over that.

[Patriot_Spear]

50. As Agent Smith would say, "Me too..."

n/t

[blm]

56. That's how the right feels about Bush. btw...what about POLICY?

Are you attracted to Dean for his substantial differences in policies? Are they creative and head and shoulders above the others? Is he someone you trust to deliver on those policies?

[Mairead]

62. "every attack makes me even more emotionally attached to him"

That's quite close to the classic definition of a fanatic: someone who, having lost sight of his goal, redoubles his efforts.

Ideally, criticism should prompt one to step back and think, not cling more tightly out of reflex.

[Hep]

69. says the kucinich supporter

Kings of futility!

[Mairead]

75. I know you don't understand, but that's okay.

I no longer expect you to do.

[Hep]

76. Good for both of us

So you needn't bother replying in the future.

Don't lose sight of your goal, whatever that is!

[TLM]

127. I know you don't understand, but that's OK

I no longer expect you to.


When your attacks on Dean fail to pull support from him, you then attack the supporters as crazy cult members.

[LWolf]

63. I find this post frightening.

Not that you are enthusiastic about Dean.

But... the teenage groupie correlation. Frightening.

I hope you love Dean because you love his position on the issues.

I hope you vote your conscience...on the issues.

I hope you do not love or hate a candidate, or cast your vote, based on who everyone else loves or hates.

I hope the "flash and trash" inevitable in any campaign is not what draws you. I hope it's the depth of the candidate's knowledge, experience, and commitment to working on the issues that matter to you.

That way you'll be working for the health and prosperity of democracy. Not devaluing it.

Negative posts can definitely have unintended consequences. I'm sure that the supporters of candidate X never intended to ensure, through their bashing, sarcasm, and derision, that the supporters of candidates Y, Z, etc. would never vote for candidate X should their choice drop out. Although that has happened. I'm sure that enthusiastic support of a chosen candidate was not intended to give other people the creeps, viewing it as a quasi-cult type attachment.

I think it's fine to disagree with a candidate's positions. Debate is crucial to the process. I think it can be done with respect. I think supporters of all candidates need to be careful not to take disagreement personally, or to attack as if it were personal.

I don't like to think of voters as cheerleaders. I like to think of them as the coaches, sending their chosen players on to the field.

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. excellant...

jeeze i wish i could express my views half as well as you have.

"working for the health and prosperity of democracy. Not devaluing it".

[spooky3]

64. Did you see Richard Cohen's column in the Wash. Post today?

That's basically the point he made.

[mmonk]

67. good post LittleDannySlowhorse

we all need to focus on what this election means.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

70. Thank you

I have great respect for Clark BTW and I think he would make a great president.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

68. OK...

I'm sorry if this thread aggravated people or stirred the pot or whatever --- it was certainly not my intention, although I suppose in retrospect I should have expected the response I got. Anyway, I'm going to address a few things that have come up in this thread, and then hopefully this can sink to the bottom and be forgotten.

1) My intention in posting this was to make people aware that their attacks on particular candidates (in my case Dean) is actually counterproductive. I simply don't believe that anyone is compelled to change their views based on attacks. It doesn't work for me, and I'd be surprised if it works for anyone else either.

2) I have never engaged in attacks on other peoples' candidates (except a couple of barbs at Lieberman), because I don't like it when people do it to mine, and I'm assuming that works both ways. I think that the constant attacks on Clark and Kerry, for example, are also highly irrational, and from what I can tell, counterproductive. I mentioned this in the original post, but I'm starting to feel like people just read thread titles and not the content of the post.

3) Terms like "cult" and "lemmings" are sky-high hyperbole. I have my own reasons for liking Dean, and yes, they have to do with his policies and his stand on various issues. I do not believe that he is the divinely-annointed savior of mankind. I do not believe he is incapable of fucking up. I do not agree with him on every issue. But I do think he would make a good president, as would most of the Dems currently running. He just resonates with me more than any of the other candidates do, and I don't really see how that's indicative of a cult mentality.

4) I have no regrets about posting that photo of the sleeping guy. I thought it was funny.

5) I can't wait until the primaries are over so that we can unite behind one candidate, whoever it is, and let the bashing end, because it's making me very tired. I plan to volunteer and donate plenty of money to the nominee, whoever it is, and I certainly don't have a "Dean or nobody" attitude about this. I like Clark a lot. Kucinich has been saying things that need saying. Edwards has crystallized the Bush admin's economic agenda better than any candidate I've ever heard. And so on.

I am aware that a lot of Dean supporters have an attitude that is just as counterproductive as what I'm talking about, and it makes me cringe when I see it coming from my side. I think we just all need to step back a minute, catch our breath, and try to stop tearing each other apart. That's all I meant to say.

[Melinda]

84. Brilliantly stated and executed.

Someone needed do it.

:yourock:

[LWolf]

94. I'm relieved.

This version I can agree with (most of). It makes sense. I appreciate your clarification.

[w4rma]

97. I fully agree with you LittleDannySlowhorse

And, IMHO, you have absolutely NOTHING to appologize for. Especially not to the creeps who trash Democratic candidates instead of promoting the candidate they say they support. :toast:

[CWebster]

83. It works for me

because the tactics used by the other candidates might as well be Republican smears based on their lack of credibility and transparent political calculation.

When and where Dean has critised he has echoed my own criticism whether it is the vote on Iraq to the array of issues where the DLC misled Dems have fell down on the job. I say - Go for it Howard Dean, full speed ahead.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

96. I "fight myself" in order to have an open mind...

I've been switching between the candidates and like all of them - so I'm a little more detached and unemotional about it. Right now my pick is Clark/Dean - but a few weeks ago it was Dean/Clark. I just want us to win in 2004 and will pick whoever can best do that.

If the attacks are pointless ones - I don't pay much attention and chalk it up to "politics as usual." If they have some merit to them - I will mull it over and put it in the Dean negative column.

They way I see it - Dean has some incredible positives but also some big negatives. I'm just trying to "weigh them."

I waiting to see if Dean can get the black vote. If he can't get black turnout in the general election, the Dem party cannot win. I also don't see that someone from the East Coast can get many votes in the South (I'm a Southerner). We just keep on getting "beat up" in the South and are losing more and more ground.

I just don't see that Dean can get much of the Southern vote. Both Kerry and Dean - being Northern "East Coasters" would have problems there. That's why I like Dean as the VP candidate for now - he has the loyal followers and can generate a lot of enthusiasm and also has Trippi. Clark can bring in the Southern votes and the black voters. He also has the national defense credentials. Both Clark and Dean have a lot of charisma. I don't think they could be beat.

Dean/Edwards could then run in 2012 and they'd have the national defense experience to trounce the Repubs.

[w4rma]

98. Jesse Jackson Jr. Throws His Support to Dean

By JODI WILGOREN
Published: October 28, 2003

CHICAGO, Oct. 27 — Representative Jesse L. Jackson Jr. said Monday that he would soon endorse Howard Dean for the Democratic presidential nomination, telling a mostly black audience on the South Side of Chicago that Dr. Dean had "the best chance to be the next president of the United States."

"I'm not wasting my time with any more non-straight-talking candidates," Mr. Jackson said in introducing Dr. Dean, a former governor of Vermont, to a group of about 150 people at Chicago State University.

"I've seen him stand up for health care," he said. "I've seen him stand up for students. I've seen him stand up for ordinary Americans. I'm asking you to stand up for Howard Dean."

The support of Mr. Jackson, the son of the Rev. Jesse Jackson, has been coveted by several presidential contenders in part because he carries some of the imprimatur of his father. He said after Dr. Dean's 45-minute question-and-answer session that he would "make it official in the next 7 to 14 days."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/28/politics/campaigns/28DEAN.html?ex=1067922000&en=891970444288e0cc&ei=5062
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=186848

Jackson Urges Democrats to Accentuate the Positive
…
"I don't understand why I am being singled out. Rep. Major Owens, from New York, endorsed Gov. Dean some time ago, but none of these issues were raised. No member of the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) has endorsed Rev. Sharpton, and there were other members of the CBC in the New York Times article who indicated that they too may be on the verge of endorsing Gov. Dean.
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002031.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=188605

[kerry-is-my-prez]

101. That's a good start...

I'm just wondering how the rest of the black community feels about it. Jesse Jackson and Sharpton have an ongoing feud so I'm not surprised he didn't endorse Sharpton.

Do you know when he's supposed to endorse Dean? Or has he done it already?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

106. I hear you

For me, one of the very compelling reasons that I try to keep an open mind is because it's entirely possible I'll have to vote for one of the other 8 candidates in November. So from a purely practical standpoint, I just find it very upsetting when I read some the really irrationally hateful stuff, about any candidate. There are some things I've read that have really taken me aback just in the sheer visciousness of them, and I become very skeptical that someone can be "ABB" when they hate a given candidate enough to post some of the stuff I've seen here.

I have no illusions about Dean's weaknesses or about the degree to which we would have our work cut out for us if he were the nominee. But I believe this to be the case for all of the candidates. There just isn't one who clearly emerges for me as absolutely, hands-down, the one who will unquestionably beat Bush next year. Whoever the candidate is, he or she is going to be subjected to the most draconian levels of evil campaign smearing in the history of American politics. None of the candidates have yet impressed me that they have the teflon quality that will make that all just roll off their backs. There are good arguments to be made for everyone in the field right now, but no one has yet emerged for me as a can't-lose prospect. As you said, Clark/Dean would make a formidable ticket though... there are a lot of options and permutations still to weigh.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been angry and chomping at the bit for this election since December 2000, and maybe my anger is informing my preferences too much --- that possibility certainly exists. Maybe it still exists for a lot of us, despite the right wing's fascinating suggestion that we "get over it". But I hope that if we all collectively are still smarting from 2000, that we can still try to respect each other enough not to tear ourselves apart. We need each other and we all need to be on board this time.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

108. It's hard to do

I just found myself getting so upset and depressed during the 2000 election. I don't want to go through another roller coaster ride.

Also, politicians have a habit of making a lot of promises and then kind of backing out of them once they get elected. I don't trust any of them 100%.

[HazMat]

116. Every one of you makes me dislike him more

You love him the way teenage girls loved the Beatles ? :puke:

It just reaffirms my belief that Dean followers are irrational .. led by emotions and fantasy instead of reason and reality .. concerned more about screaming about Bush rather than nominating a candidate who can actually beat him. Dean people aren't approaching this as a problem to be solved.. but maybe they don't want to. IMO, Dean supporters are emotionally needy and need Bush the way people who need an abusive husband, parent, etc.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

120. yeooooch...that;s gotta hurt

and while you may convince me of part of that...the part about some of them needing bush, i "know" some of the Dean people and it isn't universally true.

there was a thread earlier about "are we too angry"

someone made the point that some people here need to be angry. it's their reason d'etre. maybe if we cross reference the super angry with the Dean people it would be revealing? or the Greens with the super angry?

on second thought, i don't want to go there.

[TLM]

128. This is the new meme... since they can't put out the Dean fire...

they insult the very idea of being excited for a candidate. For years we've heard many of these same people calling for a leader who can excite and inspire voters... yet when someone comes along who can do just that, all these folks can do is bash bash bash.


And I say keep it up... keep calling the folks who do not agree with you or support your guy, cult members or fanitics, or irrational. You'll simply keep disgusting more and more people who might otherwise side with you. And we can use all the support we can get.

[Scott Lee]

132. I've told a conservative client of mine about Dean bashing here

And he couldn't stop laughing over the phone...he said (and I have to agree with him for once) that his party can retire early and spend election time in the Caman Islands while the Democrats tear their best prospects apart.

Jeeez luis.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

130. This whole notion is such parody

I just had to kick it to the top!