For those who poo-poo the Bush-Nazi analogies made at DU...

[tom_paine]

Yeah, you know who I'm talking about...

Have you seen this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24179-2003Nov10.html?referrer=emailarticle

"America, under Bush, is a danger to the world," Soros said. Then he smiled: "And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is."

Soros believes that a "supremacist ideology" guides this White House. He hears echoes in its rhetoric of his childhood in occupied Hungary. "When I hear Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds me of the Germans." It conjures up memories, he said, of Nazi slogans on the walls, Der Feind Hort mit ("The enemy is listening"). "My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me," he said in a soft Hungarian accent.

========================================

Oh, that Soros, what a creepy, crazy :tinfoilhat: dork, eh?

His billions must have unhinged him, eh?

Imagine, he even thinks he once lived in Soviet-occupied Hungary!

What a NUT. Someone should commit him RIGHT EFFING NOW!

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

Loop-jobs like this Soros only make Democrats look crazier. The rest of us should condemn him as strongly as possible with insults and taunts like "who stole my strawberries?"

[Frangible]

1. yes but

Who stole my strawberries?!?!

[tom_paine]

4. Your strawberries are in Nazi-occupied Hungary!

You know, I think this whole Nazi thing is a big conspiracy theory.

There never WERE any such poeple as Nazis. It's juts something that creepy :tinfoilhat:s invented, like "Umbrella Man" or Jack Ruby's Mafia ties or something.

Crazy.

Yes, the strawberries are in Hungary...

[Wednesdays]

2. WHO poo-pooed the Bush-Nazi analogy?

Let me at 'em!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[tom_paine]

5. I'm not going to mention any names -- its against DU rules

Let's just say the prominent strawberry thief is probably pretty happy about that Monday Night Football game last night...

[Bucky]

7. I poo-poo'ed it. See post below.

Come at me.

[tom_paine]

12. I answered you below

so there.

[Selwynn]

19. Me.

I don't think comparing the Bush administration to the nazis helps anything. The "nazi analogy" is so ridiculously misused and abused that it makes us sound like bigger idiots when we say that than it does help convey any kind of point.

People hear us say things like comparing the Bush admin to the Nazis and they immediately are turned off to our argument. It makes us seem insensitive and idiotic to compare Bush to a regime responsible for the torture and brutal mutilation and murder of six million Jews. Quite honestly I wish people would stop comparing anything to Hitler at all - it doesn't help the case, in only makes people stop listening.

When bush compared Saddam to Hitler it had the same effect. Saddam is a bad man, and he was a tyrant, and a murderer. Should they have used the comparison to Hitler? No, and it was a cheap and bad attempt at manipulating opinion. We shouldn't be guilty of the same thing.

Bush is a bad man, guilty of being arrogant and ignorant at the same time , and his decisions have cost soldiers their lives, that's for sure. Is Bush partial to fascism? Maybe, certainly some of the attempts to consolidate power would make us think so. Is it comparable to the Nazis - it is a bad comparison that shouldn't be made. It only makes us look childish.

[bobthedrummer]

27. Who can be turned off at the FACTS about the Bush family fortune

which, in large part, stems from the Holocaust???

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ROG309A.html

[tom_paine]

35. What about the distinct similarities in propaganda strategies?

Is is permissible to point those out?

Demonization/dehumanization has always beensuccessful, eh?

Both the Busheviks and the Nazis labelled at various times, "liberals" as the source of all their nations' woes.

Both Parties strictly followed Goebbels dictum, "Propaganda…must always be essentially simple and repetitious. In the long run, only he will achieve basic results in influencing public opinion who is able to reduce problems to the simplest terms and who has the courage to keep forever repeating them in this simplified form despite the objections of the intellectuals."

Both Parties used bullying as a tactic to intimidate critics (one Party was considerably more violent than the other, but times cahnge and violence is not as acceptable in the US as it was in 1930s Germany)

Both Parties called their opponents "RATS".

More...

You can say whatever you like, but the similarities are there and they are undeniable, right up to and including the seizure of power by alternate means after losing the actual election.

I won't stop saying it. It is the truth. You can wait for the Busheviks to closely resemble the Nazis, but it will NEVER happen.

That would be bad PR.

[Eloriel]

38. No, it makes you look VERY poorly informed

You have to recognize first and foremost that Hitler did a lot of things prior to and other than the Holocaust. To equate Hitler with JUST the Holocaust (as horrific as that was) is simplistic at best, myopic at worst.

I don't know if you need more information about Hitler, or more information about Bush and indeed the whole Bush Family. But something's missing here in your overall education.

Eloriel

[HereSince1628]

3. Let me change my vote from Fascism to

Falangism

[Bucky]

6. Thank you for your own "with us or against us" rhetoric

Unfortunately, Mr Soros did not call Bush a Nazi. The closest he comes to it is the reference to "supremacy," only that phrase is explained further down in the article you cited when they mention Soros's forthcoming book, The Bubble of American Supremacy. He's denouncing not Nazi-style racial supremacy, but American style political-military supremacy.

Seeking world military supremacy is dangerous and stupid, but it's not Naziism. When you call Bush a Nazi, you not only devalue the term used to describe far more evil people than the Republicans. You also bring discredit to those of use who oppose Bush on rational grounds by making the whole movement look flaky and immature.

Even if I disagreed with Soros (which I don't) that doesn't mean that I think he's "effing nuts" or should be committed to an insane asylum. But I do find it significant that you would automatically think in those extremist, "you're either with us or you're crazy" terms.

[Beetwasher]

9. Too Bad

You don't read very well.

The poster is not calling Bush a Nazi, nor did he claim Soros did, but rather was talking about an ANALOGY.

I for one will not wait until they start shipping people off to camps before I make the analogy and draw the parallels. Oops, they already have started shipping people to Gitmo, or haven't you heard?

[tom_paine]

11. No, Bucky, you missed the point entirely

On matters as prosaic to the numerous parallels in propaganda-style, purposefully wrecking government from within, behind-the-scenes-dealmaking in order to achieve power not electorally won, etc. etc. etc. many people have come in, not with reasoned debate as you have, Bucky, but with insults and tifnoilhats and sneering about stolen strawberries.

And you can spin or qualify it as you wish. I read the whole article, too, and why bring up the Nazis or the Soiets at all, if all Soros was comparing was one TINY aspect of the Busheviks to the societies, and ignoring the rest.

My ire is not "either your with us or your crazy."

Quite the opposite, Bucky, my sarcasm was directed at those who come in guns blazing with sneering insults of "either your view is like our or you're crazy". My sarcasm was merely pent-up anger and giving the sneerers-out-of-hand a little back fo their own.

So, actually this thread represents quite the opposite of what you think, Bucky. You're not crazy for thinking as you do. Noty by a long sight and I hope you are right. But then, I wouldn't sneer at you. I say again, I am just giving the Sneering Sneerers and the Sneers They Sneer a little of their own back.

But Totalitarianism is by nature chimeric, because previous incarnations are forever being discredited. The Busheviks are not going to make it that easy by coming to us in forms we would recognize. That's not good PR or marketing strategy. If you want to re-sell Totalitraianism to a skeptical world, better put in in a shiny, new package that deosn't remind people of the negative connotations of the past.

[loyalsister]

14. Not to mention

Blaming one country for something people from another country did so that they could start a war with them. Some people act like they didn't develop their ugly tactics or become facists until after the holocaust began.

[bobthedrummer]

28. In this Bush-Nazi schematic, it goes way back to WWI era

and it wasn't just the Bushes. Henry Ford, the Dulleses, Gates McGarrah, IBM, Standard Oil, Alcoa, United Fruit-a lot of American fascist influence too.
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/waryearsp5.html

[seemslikeadream]

36. IBM and the Holocaust

IBM and the Holocaust is the stunning story of IBM's stratigic alliance with Nazi Germany -- beginning in 1933 in the first weeks that Hitler came to power and continuing well into World War 11. As the Third Reich embarked upon its plan of conquest and genocide, IBM and its subsidiaries helped create enabling technologies, step-by-step, from the identification and cataloging programs of the 1930's to the selections of the 1940s

Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of couse, in the 1930s no computer existed.

But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly undated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry.

They did not merely sell the machines and walk away. Instead IBM leased these machines for high fees and became the sole source of the billions of punch cards Hitler needed.

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

[noiretextatique]

20. i think it's you who needs to expand a bit, intellectually

as i recall, you believe the fact that mlk was born in america means america is not an inherently racist country :crazy: whether it is or not, your exmaple was absurd. likewise with this debate...noting similarities between bush, inc and the nazis in sytle, tactics and methods is both rational and accurate.

[seventhson]

8. Really good discussion of this issue going on at a place called ...

The wage slave journal.

The owner went after Bob Fertik for sending out the Buchanan articles at nhgazette.com saying they were counterproductive.

I have heard this argument for years: that talking about the Bush-Nazi connections is going to alienate those who think it is bullshit.

Fact is that it is NOT bullshit and if we act like it is it will get buried again for another 50 years as the media and the Bushes and wall street have done.

But I found the dialogue at this site useful and suggest you check it out if this issue interests you (and apparently anyone can post thir comments there without registering):

http://www.wage-slave.org/archives/00000281.html#comments#comments

[redqueen]

10. Thanks for that link.

I agree, don't let them sweep it back under the rug.

[seventhson]

13. there is not a rug big enought o sweep it under NOW, BUT...

we have short memories. We need to keep this puppy kicked for awhile.

Go TO

NHGazette.com

and pass it ON!!!

[seventhson]

15. no way that this...

should not have more comments.

[gauguin57]

17. it's pooh. like the bear

Main Entry: pooh-pooh
Pronunciation: 'pü-(")pü, pü-'
Variant(s): also pooh /'pü/
Function: verb
Etymology: pooh
Date: 1827
intransitive senses
: to express contempt or impatience
transitive senses
: to express contempt for or make light of : PLAY DOWN, DISMISS

[bobthedrummer]

31. I'll never forget the Holocaust so I can't poo-poo

reality.

[KYDEM]

22. I have been watching

The Senate proceedings and the way the pubs are running things they are very close to a full take over. First doesn't give the minority leader the scheduled time for the votes on bills, they are excluding the Dem's from conference, and you have the resident sending out e-mails to committee chairs saying he and the admin. will no longer answer questions from Dem's. I find this very frightening reminds me of what I saw in the movie about Hitler coming to power.

[ibegurpard]

16. the problem is that people can't see past the Nazis=the Holocaust

Any comparisons are immediately viewed in that context. But the Nazis didn't start out by rounding up and slaughtering Jews. Anyone who refuses to see parallels between the rise of Nazism and some of what is currently happening in this country is burying their head in the sand.
(on edit: capitalization)

[bobthedrummer]

30. They cited a germ model in their eugenic programs at first

"life unworthy of life" and the very first victims were the elderly, the disabled and mentally ill and political prisoners-always political prisoners.

[Zorra]

18. Bush and the neocons are dangerous fascists.

Anyone that does not realize that is living in a dream world.

[jpgray]

21. As Soros proves, it isn't the comparison, but the way it's made

If someone is yelling "EXECUTE THE BUSHNAZIS AND THEIR AMERIKKKAN THIRD REICH!!!!!!!", it tends to come off a little worse than Soros's statement.

[Octafish]

23. Americans Inspired NAZIs

Must-read article for people interested in learning about the BFEE-NAZI axis:

Eugenics and the Nazis -- the California connection

Edwin Black Sunday, November 9, 2003

EXCERPT...

But the concept of a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed master Nordic race didn't originate with Hitler. The idea was created in the United States, and cultivated in California, decades before Hitler came to power. California eugenicists played an important, although little-known, role in the American eugenics movement's campaign for ethnic cleansing.

SNIP...

California was considered an epicenter of the American eugenics movement. During the 20th century's first decades, California's eugenicists included potent but little-known race scientists, such as Army venereal disease specialist Dr. Paul Popenoe, citrus magnate Paul Gosney, Sacramento banker Charles Goethe, as well as members of the California state Board of Charities and Corrections and the University of California Board of Regents.

Eugenics would have been so much bizarre parlor talk had it not been for extensive financing by corporate philanthropies, specifically the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune. They were all in league with some of America's most respected scientists from such prestigious universities as Stanford, Yale, Harvard and Princeton. These academicians espoused race theory and race science, and then faked and twisted data to serve eugenics' racist aims.

Stanford President David Starr Jordan originated the notion of "race and blood" in his 1902 racial epistle "Blood of a Nation," in which the university scholar declared that human qualities and conditions such as talent and poverty were passed through the blood.

CONTINUED...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/09/ING9C2QSKB1.DTL

[seemslikeadream]

25. WAR AGAINST THE WEAK by Edwin Black

Great book Octafish, I've mentioned it in other Bush Nazi threads.

After Nuremberg declared eugenics to be genocide and a crime against humanity, the American eugenics movement did not disappear, it simply went underground, changed its name, and reappeared as "human genetics."

At the center of the eugenics story in the United States is the movement's two most ardent exponents, Charles Davenport and Harry Laughlin of the Eugenics Record Office. It was these two individuals who lead the movements and never wavered from their support for ending the blood lines of people they deemed "unfit." Even after the Carnegie Institution closed the ERO at the end of 1939, partly out of embarrassment at being associated with the racism of the movement, and the horrors Nazi dominated Eurpoe being publicized to the world, Daveport and Laughlin still defended their racist ideology as a legitimate science. They never severed their ties with the German eugenics movement as it took the movement to the next level by carrying out an extermination campaign inspired by eugenics ideas.

The idea of the "unfit" is highly subjective notion, but it included the usual suspects deemed a burden on society: African-Americans, Asians, Mexicans, and Native Americans. It even included people of European origin who had brown hair. Also on the eugenics hitlist for sterilization were the deaf, blind, epileptics and psyshiatric patients. Any body deemed an impossible burden on society was a target of this movement. The eugenics position held that charity for poor people was a waste of money. The problems of the dispossessed and poor weren't socially created but the inevitable result of bad genes. It was a position that also held that sterilization, immigration restrictions, marriage restrictions and even euthanasia were the justify this racist ideology.

I think Edwin Black's appearance on C-SPAN's BOOKTV can still be seen online, it was excellent.

[Octafish]

26. Thanks for the heads-up!

I'll watch the viddy before it disappears. Once I get some scratch, I'll get Black's book, too.

BTW: Remember the Bell Curve? Thank the Reich Propaganda Ministry for the many mishapen minds out there who believe that crap. Gee. Some have been so brainwashed they believe a crazy monkey is the real (p)resident.

[seemslikeadream]

29. A bit more about WAR AGAINST THE WEAK

Black's team of dozens of researchers scoured scores of archives in four countries unearthing some 50,000 documents, which collectively prove that the eugenics agenda was funded by esteemed philanthropies such as the Rockerfeller Foundation and the Carnegie Institution: taught at Yale, Harvard, and Princeton; lauded by leading progressive thinkers such as Margaret Sanger, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Woodrow Wilson; and even sanctioned by the U.S. Supreme Court. With this kind of backing, American eugenics was quickly able to move beyond the theoretical in its quest to eliminate social "undesirables," getting cruel and racist laws enacted in 27 U.S. states. Ultimately, more than 60,000 Americans were sterilized against their will, and tens of thousands of others were institutionalized and/or denied the right to marry whom they chose. In the last year or so, governors from five states Virginia, Oregon, California, North Carolina, and South Carolina have apologized for their states' offical efforts to wipe out their unwanted citizens.
http://www.fourwallseightwindows.com/bookblack.html

[bobthedrummer]

32. "The Bell Curve"'s Charles Murray eugenicist is close pals with Tommy

the man who sold the world Thompson Sect. HHS.

[bobthedrummer]

33. Tommy Thompson and I.G. Farben spin-off Bayer

did a deal for 300 million doses of Cipro. Tommy hired Jerome Hauer from SAIC on 9-10-2001 and immediately after 9/11 had staff taking Cipro well before the anthrax attacks. :wtf:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2001/printer_1062.shtml

Pharmaceuticals also produce poisons.
http://www.redflagsweekly.com/storm_warnings/poison.html

[seemslikeadream]

34. Eugenics became a swear word after World War 11

and the policies the movement advocated came to be viewed as crimes against humanity. Eugenics eventually came to be known as "human genetics" and "genetics counciling." Eugenics also lives on be way of the finished products of racists psychological testing, namely the IQ test and the SAT. Today, the biggest threat genetics poses to people's liberty, is in the area of insurance discrimination. Every now and then it might makes a comeback, like with Richard Hernstein and Charles Murray's 1994 book The Bell Curve, which purported to prove that black people are of inferior intelligence.

Lest anyone think it an isolated moment in American history, Black proposes that eugenics lives on in new forms. Instead of the term eugenics, with its incendiary associations, the prefereed label is now the more neutral "human genetics." However, remnants of the eugenic philosophy can be discerned in practices like premartial blood testing, IQ and other standardized tests, and so-called free market solutions to social welfare. James Watson, co-discover of the DNA double helix and current HEAD OF THE LABORATORY COMPLEX FORMERLY OCCUPIED BY CHARLES DAVENPORT, has been quoted as saying 10 percent of the world's population suffers from irreversible genetic defects. The genetic code of the entire population of Iceland resides on an Internet database managed by IBM under the heading "Life Services--Nordic."
http://www.popmatters.com/books/review/w/war-against-the-weak.shtml

[seventhson]

24. has everyone now read the articles at nhgazette.com???

you should

[w4rma]

37. Lawyers Furious as US Builds (Gitmo) Death Chambers

Lawyers Furious as US Builds (Gitmo) Death Chambers

LAWYERS expressed outrage yesterday at plans to put al-Qaeda suspects, including two Britons and an Australian, on military trial in Guantanamo Bay.

They would effectively be tried by a “kangaroo court”, stripped of all basic rights of due process that would be afforded in criminal courts in Britain or America, they said.
…
He said: “The construction of execution chambers makes virtually every lawyer in the Western world extremely angry. The idea that there is an artificial creation or enclave which, according to the Americans, is beyond the purview of all recognised systems of law is repugnant.”
…
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0705-05.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8201&forum=DCForumID71

The Courier Mail: US Plans Death Camp (May 26, 2003)
THE US has floated plans to turn Guantanamo Bay into a death camp, with its own death row and execution chamber.

Prisoners would be tried, convicted and executed without leaving its boundaries, without a jury and without right of appeal, The Mail on Sunday newspaper reported yesterday.

The plans were revealed by Major-General Geoffrey Miller, who is in charge of 680 suspects from 43 countries, including two Australians.
…
“This camp was created to execute people. The administration has no interest in long-term prison sentences for people it regards as hard-core terrorists.”
…
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6494000%255E401,00.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3258&forum=DCForumID71

CBS Producer Fired For Comparing The Mood In America To That Of Germans Who Helped Hitler's Rise To Power
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2845.htm

Producer Is a Casualty in CBS's 'Hitler' Miniseries
…
In the April 12 TV Guide, the publication says that “Gernon stated his belief that fear fueled both the Bush administration's adoption of a preemptive-strike policy and the public's acceptance of it.” According to the article, “Gernon said a similar fearfulness in a devastated post-World War I Germany was 'absolutely' behind that nation's acceptance of Hitler's extremism.”

Gernon is quoted as saying of the miniseries, which tracks Hitler's rise to power in 1930s Germany: “It basically boils down to an entire nation gripped by fear, who ultimately chose to give up their civil rights and plunged the whole world into war.

“I can't think of a better time to examine this history than now,” he added.

The article further quotes him as saying that “when an entire country becomes afraid for their sovereignty, for their safety, they will embrace ideas and strategies and positions that they might not embrace otherwise.”
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A5649-2003Apr10

[joshan361]

39. cheers to the man

he is a good man that Soros