Dean should use the term Nascar dads

[Room101]

People who are being intellectually honest know what Dean was talking about with that Rebel flag flare up, his courage to open the dialog the Democratic establishment seems to timid to do was needed. Dean’s message was right on the money the way he delivered it was off the mark. Joe and Jane public only have the will to indulge in word association not investigative critical thinking. Dean should adopt the term Nascar dads when bringing up the southern voters who constantly vote against their self-interest.

Dean is swimming in waters that a lot of Democrats are to scared to even dip a toe in. The Democrats were supposed to lose the south for a generation; three generations later the Democratic establishment is on the sidelines watching this massive snowball hoping it will melt away and slow down by itself.

[mzmolly]

1. I agree.

:)

[chimpymustgo]

3. Disagree totally. John Edwards has staked his campaign on reaching

out to and reaching poor Southern whites and blacks who need jobs, health care, better schools, tax relief, and a college education.

Dean's clumsy effort just underscored that he is a novice at this.

[Room101]

13. Disagree totally ????

You actually agree with my post, you are just mad as hell I did not include John Edwards well I didn't exclude him either. Notice how I said allot of Democrats, which implies not all.

While I have been impressed with Edwards at times, he really disappointed me when he said “ we don’t need someone from the North telling us how to run the south” What the hell was that southern jingoistic rhetoric? Edwards knew what Dean was trying to say but used it as an opportunity to hit him with buckshot’s. Edwards would have scored huge points with me if he handled it differently, he could have said Dean you mean well but this shows you are a novice where I’m an expert. Then Edwards could have proven it by reaching poor Southern whites and blacks that need jobs, health care, better schools, tax relief, and a college education.

[chimpymustgo]

24. What Dean didn't (and may not still) realize is that you can't come into

region, or talk to any group of people by essentially saying, "You've been too stupid to figure out what you should be voting for - and I'm here to tell you!"

That's Edwards' point - and Democrats need to take heed: you can't talk down to people. You've got to talk to them. If they can figure out how to do that, they'll win a lot more elections - even in the South.

[bryant69]

2. Right on!

This is the truth--I get discouraged at the number of Democrats/Progressives who are happy to write off the South.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[HFishbine]

10. Hey Bryant

If it's any consolation, the south isn't giving up on the dems (not all of us, anyway). Check this out:

http://www.fundrace.org/moneymap.php?cand=RepVDem&zoom=County

[NicoleM]

4. Dean should not use the term NASCAR dads.

First of all, there are NASCAR fans all over the country, not just in the South. I'm not one of them, but I know quite a few people, mostly grown men, who were in tears the day after Dale Earnhardt died.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure NASCAR fans know that there are a lot of people out there who look down on them as "white trash," if you'll pardon my use of the term. I'm afraid that if we go around calling them that, they will feel it is being used as a put-down.

I don't even really know what a NASCAR dad is supposed to be, anyway. But I think using it could backfire.

[Room101]

14. NicoleM- What’s a soccer mom? Oh the irony

I don't even really know what a soccer mom is supposed to be, anyway. But I think using it could backfire. No wait it doesn't backfire it actually fires people up. OHHHH THE IRONY! :)

[NicoleM]

16. The difference is

that most people don't think people who watch their kids play soccer are stupid. There are a lot of people who think NASCAR and/or its fans are stupid. If these NASCAR dads think it's really code for "ignorant hick," they're not going to like being called that.

[Room101]

19. It's the fastest growing spectator sport in the US

They are becoming the majority, I would naively think in the south being a Nascar fan or dad is a cool thing, were is the stigma?

[NicoleM]

20. It's not about NASCAR per se.

It's more about "the last thing we need is people like you coming down here and telling us what we need to do."

I'm from a rural area, and I've encountered a lot of "city people" who think we're all idiots. I've actually heard people ask if we have electricity, if we ride buffalo, if there are Indians riding across the plains on horseback with bows and arrows trying to kill us.

If the people we're trying to reach feel that the "NASCAR dads" label is being used to shorthand "rednecks," as someone else said, they aren't going to appreciate somebody like Howard Dean coming in and calling them rednecks.

[Room101]

23. NicoleM - You are turning this into a southern Jingoistic orator

You are looking through a chip on your shoulder.
It's more about "the last thing we need is people like you coming down here and telling us what we need to do." So much for a United States of America, I was under the pipedream impression that whole civil war was history. People like me are simply trying to open a dialog not a seminar. What a silly rabbit.

[NicoleM]

25. I'm not turning it into anything.

First of all, the farthest south I've ever been is Nebraska. I've never been to any of the southeastern states. I'm not talking about the South.

I'm not saying that it's right that some people WHO I KNOW (real people, not theoretical people) who are NASCAR fans might take offense to being called "NASCAR dads." I'm not saying that I think the term "NASCAR dads" is intended to be offensive. But regardless of intent, I think there are some people who will be offended by it.

And if we want those same people to vote for us, we need to not call them things that they don't want to be called.

THAT'S ALL.

And how the hell do you look through a chip on your shoulder?

[Room101]

26. NicoleM- all I have to say to you is...

Fu*ck Bush, I bow out of this row. Can we go back to finding ways to get the truth to the reasonable sensible people in this country?

I plan on taking the ARMY TIMES article titled Act of betrayalto a store that has A I support the troops sign in their window. Wish me luck.

[NicoleM]

28. Sure.

Good luck.

[_Jumper_]

21. Class

The perception is that NASCAR fans are poor or working-class people that are often referred to derogatorily as "white trash." Classism is the primary reason for NASCAR fans being stimigatized. Secondly, anti-South prejudice plays a role because it is predominantly Southern.

That being said, I've been on several NASCAR message boards and NASCAR fans are to the right of Attila the Hun...

[_Jumper_]

15. Courting "NASCAR Democrats" is a PC way of saying you're...

...courting "rednecks."

There are NASCAR fans across the nation but its fanbase is predominantly Southern, or at least its hardcore fanbase is.

[eyesroll]

5. Eh, I hate the term Nascar dads

Maybe I just don't get auto racing, but the term just sounds awkward to me. (I'm a white girl from the Chicago suburbs, though, so take that with a grain of salt.)

But I agree with your sentiment. I don't think using the words "Confederate flag" was a horrible idea, but now, all it's doing is attracting attention to the controversy and not the message.

[madrchsod]

6. ahhh- there`s alot of

guys up here in the north that like nascar,in fact this years champ is from cambridge,wisconsin. and of course there are alot of people up here that think the same way as a supposed "southern nascar dad". there really isn`t any difference between the north and south when it comes to how various stereotypes think.

[maggrwaggr]

7. yeah, I hate that term, too

nt

[UTUSN]

8. The Dudes with That Flag Would Shoot Their Guns

at anybody calling them "Nascar Dads." To repeat, sincerely, the legal battles over that danged flag were SERIOUS, MEANT SOMETHING, were ABOUT SOMETHING. The dudes who FLAUNT that flag want NOTHING to do with a party that champions minorities of ANY stripe. Take an UPSCALE one of those dudes, Ted NUGENT. That jerk will NEVER switch away from Shrub to DEAN based on superficial issues like The-N.R.A.-in common. This is NOT a DEAN bash. I responded to the SKINNER poll with the it-was-a-mistake (not racism). The flag people are NOT AVAILABLE to us.

[Hep]

9. No way.

Dean's use of the flag waving pickup driver for most of his campaign was how he introduced not only the southern issue, but also the race issue.

*I know, the ACTUAL comment that caused the controversy was about the NRA or whatever, I'm talking about his more frequent use of the phrase*

Part of the point Dean was trying to make is that southern working class whites and blacks should be voting the same way. NASCAR is a sport. It's widespread. They race in Arizona now.

The symbol is NOT the point.

[Alenne]

11. Why not just poor whites?

If that is who he is talking about then say it.

[IndianaGreen]

12. As a NASCAR fan (Jeff Gordon) there are as many women as men

and it is the women that the car sponsors target, e.g., White Rain for Dale Jarrett's Busch car, Dupont and Pepsi for Gordon's Winston Cup car.

The expression "NASCAR dads" is inherently ignorant and offensive. BTW, the current Winston Cup champion is a Yankee (Matt Kenseth).

[_Jumper_]

18. I'm a Harvick fan

The reason the term "NASCAR dad" is used is because it refers to poor Southern whites males who are very pro-gun(women are much less likely to be anti-gun control), and are "angry white males." That is what makes them distinct from their female counterparts.

[mmonk]

17. which president won the election

because he used the term Nascar Dad?

[mrgorth]

22. He doesn't have to use NASCAR dads

exaclty. He could've just replaced "confed. flag" with NASCAR" sticker and be done with it. Also, it's a good thing that this tterm crosses geographic lines as we're trying to get to those same people in the north and west also. As far as the redneck insinuation. It sounds to me like you people are adding it on yourselves. If you like NASCAR you freaking like NASCAR. If you fly the stars and bars, you fly it. Are we supposeed to ignore or not mention this demo? If the comments aren't made condescendingly noone should take it as a put down.

[JackRiddler]

27. Got bad news for you...

"NASCAR fans" (let's leave out the dad part) would have succeeded in getting a few snickers at his opportunism and made absolutely no difference.

Few people would have noticed. No controversy, no dialogue, no issue. This would have been wimpy, ineffective, but quite PC. And irrelevant.

Besides being a NASCAR fan is not construed as a political statement. Are you implying that NASCAR fans = would-be Johnny Rebs?

What Dean did say was daring, strong and possibly stupid. I'm not sure about the last, but it did have balls. At any rate, it has been regularly misconstrued, misinterpreted and misquoted. And gross was the spectacle of so many candidates piling up on the frontrunner about something he'd said months earlier, but that no one had taken offense to at the time.

So he's clumsy or he's not, Dr. Dean. But what's wrong with addressing the way that race has been used to divide class? Is it wrong to speak to the economic interests of the poor and working southern white people who tend to vote Republican? Do these economic interests coincide with the economic interests of poor and working black people, or do they not?

You want the Johnny Rebs to drop their flags? They might do so in 20 years... if someone finds a way to address them now on the things that should actually concern them!

ON EDIT: NASCAR dads is a Republican euphemism. They made it up to counter "soccer moms." Roughly, it stands for "redneck hicks who don't care about their own economic interests and vote Republican cause we got them all in a lather about cultural-elitist liberals and minorities and the Lawd on Our Side and let's support the troops by bombing Iraq and let's drive big ole cars, yeah."

It's ballsy (though again, perhaps reckless and insensitive) of Dean to avoid that euphemism (actually, I find it even more unpleasant somehow than the sight of the CF) and cut straight to the chase.

[mbali]

29. Hardly a courageous

effort to open up dialogue. It was an accident, a faux pas that he stumbled into and finally had to apologize for.

It's priceless, though, the way Dean supporters see even Dean's clumsy missteps as something remarkable and worthy of near hero-worship.

Another example of Howard "Chauncey Gardener" Dean.

[Room101]

30. It was an accident ??? Hello he mentioned it many times before

and nobody said anything. Hero-worship? I have criticized Dean many times before. You should learn about the posters and there history before you roll out sweeping generalizations that are inconsistent with reality. Another example of :think:

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. As a "soccer mom" I vote no. I detest the idea of being thought of

as a mini van driving, non political, security maven. I feel the same about the term Nascar Dad.