the lack of aggressive nastiness in Dem party is killing us.

[homelandpunk]

First, a little item to illustrate my point. Charles Jaco had his own show mornings in St. Louis, and while not a "lefty", he was daily skewering Bush on the war, making fun of neo-cons, Fox, and made lots of sense. He is on a station which the rest of the day has O'Reilly, Hannity, Ingraham, some jerk named Glenn Beck, etc. So now they forced him to take 2nd billing with some dime-a-dozen arrogant neo-con who loves to hear himself talk. I'm sure the loyal repug audience who listens to the rest of these bozos on that station were going ape-sh!t over Jaco having his show to himself to bash Bunnypants. But when he took callers there never was a dem who called, never, always the wing nuts. He always made them look stupid, but he needed callers who took staunch sides with what he was saying. So Jaco will be gone soon, and we LET THEM win another battle. We are too lazy to pick up a phone and make calls the way all the morAns do. They win. I NEVER heard dems call in to his show. He did not have a wacko screener. It's pitiful...we have no urgency. If these dark times does not get us off our butts to pick up a g-d phone and make a simple call to a host fighting what we are fighting, we desrve to lose the airwaves. I mean it. Had he even recieved 50-50 on calls, the station may not be forcing him out. In less than a month Jaco will be gone, I will bet a week's wage.
Another battle the fascist MINORITY wins, because they are VOCAL and we are not.
In case you are wondering, I am drivig to work at the time of the show, and I do not own a cell phone.
To make my point again, I feel that if we have a leader or public figure we can point to, who is a fighter, we get happy and then we get LETHARGIC. The argument "he is fighting for me" has been a dem standard and has gotten us nowhere. Think of it this way: He is fighting FOR me. And that is the problem.
We have to feel and act as if no one is fighting for us, whether we see it or not. As long as dems feel someone is fighting FOR them, they don't pick up the fight themselves. It is so obvious. Do you think there are no dems who listened to Jaco's show? BUT YET NO CALLS. Pick up the g-d phone...how frikkin hard is it?
And that is just for starters. The unspoken problem? There is not enough ex-GOPers in our party. In other words, there is not enough vitriol, nastiness, indignation. I really don't know what accounts for the lethargy. Are people waiting for swastikas before they start fighting? When you hear about republican stupidity do you quietly roll your eyes? Or do you snarl in visceral, physical disgust, with your fists clenched? The problem I see is most dems are the eye-rollers. Real, genuine, motivating disgust and revulsion is too much energy for dems to muster. They have others "fighting for them", anyway.

[ShaneGR]

1. Uhhhh..... post the phone number why don't ya?

What are we to do, call information? We don't even know what town you live in!

[homelandpunk]

5. I'm not saying DUers need to call...missed my point

I am saying the general dem population who may or may not have heard of DU is still out there...noe of theese people were calling to tell Jaco it is great someone is saying what he was saying. No support. He was battling wingnut callers one after the other, back to back...and the impression was that he was a minrity of one. Again...there was no screener...hell, he would have loved to get some calls from people who agreed. It is lethargy.
But my post is not meant to solicit DUers to call the show. I am making my point, and I used that to illustrate what I am saying.

[La_Serpiente]

2. Delete

[ibegurpard]

3. save it?

just save it for an election every 4 years while the right-wing machine churns relentlessly 24-7? That's what's gotten us into this mess.

[aquart]

4. I actually prefer the Clinton method of killing with kindness.

I don't want spite and nastiness from my candidates. I want largeness of mind, and the ability to charmingly roast an opponent on a spit and pop an apple in his mouth before he even realizes he's the entree.

[homelandpunk]

6. I hate this. You just made my point!

Your first thing you say is "my candidate"....
I am not talking about leaders we look to. I am talking about the general Democrat population, and getting beyond "my candidate is fighting FOR me" to fighting nasty, fire for fire for ourselves and taking a little responsibility to fight back...not the candidates or leaders or party hacks, the PEOPLE.

[jpgray]

7. So you want us to lie, cheat and steal?

We don't get favorable coverage in the media. Every Dem attack is blitzkrieged and the Dem is made into the Antichrist. You act as though reaching millions of people with your message was easy--the GOP took decades consolidating media partnerships (look at the radio), and whoring for corporations. If we do the same thing, what's the difference between us and them?

[homelandpunk]

8. It's a show without a screener, and only wingnuts call

That tells me we can't even pick up a god damn phone and make a fucking phone call and say "Right on!" You think years of media conglomeration accounts for that?

[jpgray]

9. Speaking for myself, I don't listen to talk radio

I think many Democrats have been conditioned to ignore it completely--if you aren't racist or simpleminded, hearing Rush or the like a few times will cure you of ever wanting to tune to it again.

So I would explain your phenomenon by saying that those who get the most fulfillment out of opinion talk radio are right-wingers, since their ideologues are all over the dial. Since this is the case, I would say more liberals avoid such things (doubtless missing chances like you mention), and more conservatives are attracted.

But CSPAN, for example, usually gets a pretty good mix--there's no shortage of liberal callers there.

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. I agree totally.

Although I have been attacked many times by people calling themselves liberals and acting like fascists.

I think we all need to support those of us who are willing to take the fight to these nasties. Carville, Dean, Kucinich, Gore, Soros, and all the way across the board. The left needs a warrier class and they need to know that they need it, and accept it, support it, use it.

And anyone on here can take a bold step today, right now - wear these buttons, provoke conversation and stand up for your cause. Wear anyone's buttons, plant stickers, attend events, volunteer and never, ever let someone say anything "Right" (wrong) without confronting it with the truth. Speak truth to power and it withers and fades. Silence equals death.

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[jpgray]

11. Fighting is key--anger is not

You don't have to be angry, but you do have to fight tooth and nail. I think emulating the Republicans is a terrible idea, and one that will lead us eventually to become what we hate.

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. Anger, ok, how about agression?

I think it takes an agressive, confrontational stance to handle fascists and fascism. These people don't understand or give any weight to reason, science, proof, evidence, law, or government.

The battle is being fought in the minds of the populace, the lever that drives the machine of power is fear and the media is the hand of the system.

Faced with that, aggression is a friend to liberty and democracy.

How many survivors of Germany in WWII said that they wished they had spoken up earlier and louder? It takes courage to do that.

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[jpgray]

16. Aggression is fine, but the deck is stacked so it will be misrepresented

Believe me, I don't have the magic strategy for Dem behavior--I do know we can't get away with what the Republicans can. We just don't have any slack with the media--we don't have the control. Since we can't fight them on a level playing field, it's very hard to know when it's time for tact and when it's time for no-holds-barred aggression. Sometimes neither works--we certainly had a mix of both during the buildup to war. Folks like Kucinich or Byrd were sharply contrasting with Lieberman, etc.

In short, it will be very difficult to be aggressive without looking like the vicious partisan, and difficult to be tactul without looking like the spineless twit. We just don't seem to be able to control our image, and that's pretty fatal when TV news is so important.

[Selwynn]

12. You're wrong. Here's how:

Fighting assholes by becoming an asshole is the wrong tactic. It's the reason why less than 50% of Americans even bother to vote, and why hardly anyone actually gives a damn about politics.

The answer is not to become everything we're against. Why? Because the ultimate goal isn't to "win" at any cost. The ultimate issue is that we believe certain political principles and governing ideologies are right, always right, uncompromisingly right. If we win by compromising those principles, who care that we won? We might as well have put in a Republican for four more years.

Hate is very much related to violence. And like violence it never helps any situation in the long run. And yet so many people turn to hate and anger as the solution. They do that because its easier. It's easier just to stoop to the other guys level and in doing so fail to give America a better choice and drag the whole country further down in the process.

No one is saying that Dems don't need more backbone. But there is a difference between "tough" and "hate." Their is a difference between convicted, passionate, decisive, unwavering commitment to our ideals and DEVISIVENESS. What you propose is just a continuing escalation of the politics of endless divisiveness which has gotten us into the every deepening mess this country is in, and has been getting deeper in for decades. The answer is not to become worse than the other guys, the answer is the stop pandering to every interest that comes with in 500 miles of the DNC and start bolding proclaiming our platform - one that by the way should reflect a true spirit of unapologetic liberal progressivism - and standing by it courageously and boldly come hell or high water.

The problem with "snaring in visceral, physical disgust" is that it accomplishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact it does more DAMAGE than "quietly rolling your eyes." Because you have now driven a wedge in between you and the other person, made a hard and fast enemy, drawn a line in the sand and said "you are my enemy." That is not the way you take back the country - unless of course you just plan to exterminate those who disagree with you? If not, then you're going to have to find a way to persuade, to convince, to win people over.

I could have done what you suggested to a guy name Sean, who was defending bush going to war with Iraq, defending pro-life views and saying that homosexuality was a sin. But I didn't, instead I took every opportunity I got during the next several weeks when I would see this guy to have a discussion. It was a honest and non-threatening discussion, where I would LISTEN to his views before shouting him down, ask honest questions and point him towards real facts about the issues. Eventually he would begin to say "you know I never knew that" or "It never occurred to me to look at it that way." Finally he said "you know, I have to be honest with you and tell you that it wasn't until we started talking that I really ever questioned what I believed."

And I am not kidding you: that guy us VOTING DEMOCRAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE NEXT ELECTION!! :)

Right now I'm working on a guy named Rich. It's a little more difficult because he is a fundamentalist Christian. But over the last year of talking to me (I chose to befriend him for the sake of persuading him) -- he's gone from voting for Bush in 2000 to either not voting of voting against him in 2004 (don't think he'll be voting democrat, but he isn't voting for bush!)

This is how we win. We win by bringing people to the light - not convincing everyone that we're better at HATING than the other guys! Not by making everyone who disagrees with us into our enemy. My god people, wake up! I swear sometimes we act so little different than fanatical fundamentalists. Do you want to declare a "holy war" on everyone who disagrees with you? Gee that's been real positive in the world so far. Or do you want to be the more mature one, the more patient one, the one willing to tirelessly persuade, continue to befriend and kindly and persistently point others towards the truth?

That is the only attitude that will ultimately change things.

[homelandpunk]

14. while I appreciate your interpretation of my point

I never mentioned hate. I am talking about fighting back. Using anger - genuine anger - not manufactured hostility over red meat issues, but using genuine anger to take action. I do not advocate uncontrolled, indiscriminate hostility. I advocate being more vocal, being well informed, and fighting with urgency, and yes, nastiness, if encountered, should be met with something more than the Alan Colmes treatment. If Hannity was ever replied to with a contempt for his views equal to what he dishes out, do you think that would be a bad thing? I am asking why there is lethargy and wish there was a more personal activism...ny case in point in this post was that we can't even make a simple call...
If we lose 2004, my guess is the events that caused the loss will have you agreeing with my prescription...I'm just saying we need to get in that frame of mind NOW.

[Selwynn]

15. Forgive me for confusing "snaring in visceral, physical disgust"

..with something near what might be called a hateful attitude. I may have jumped to conclusions there.

I agree with you about being more vocal, well-informed, fighting for what's right with urgency. However matching nastiness for nastiness accomplishes nothing.

No one goes, "well you've been complete nasty and viatrolic -- wow you've really convinced me!" It just doesn't work that way.

If people are hateful and nasty and unwilling to listen they are the people you should be wasting time with anyway. There are plenty of people out there like Sean and Rich just waiting for someone willing to demonstrate something other than "nastiness" and be persuaded towards a more healthy way of thinking. :)