Should permanent residents (green card holders) be allowed to vote?

[doubles]

They sacrifice their lives for this country during wars, they pay taxes.

If someone is willing to give their life for this country, should they not be allowed to vote? This law not allowing them to vote is un-American, it goes against our core values. Of course Republicans are against this, but if not all green card holders, at least allow those in the armed forces a chance to vote. If the law cannot be changed, then allow only citizens into the armed forces. We can't have such double standards.

I mentioned this to a Repug today, and his answer was, "If someone wants to rake your yard for free, would you allow it"? :puke:

Didn't they award citizenship to a fallen soldier from the Iraq war recently? I guess Repugs believe we should only award it to soldiers once they are dead.

Another issue the Dems can run with come 2004.

[La_Serpiente]

1. I they are allowed to vote

In Germany.

[Kellanved]

14. no

Only EU citizens and only for local, regional and European elections.

[ithacan]

36. in Sweden, also proposal for this in Japan

in Sweden I think foreigners can vote in local elections. In Japan a huge number of municipalities have just said they think foreigners should be able to vote in local elections.

Green card holders should absolutely be eligible to vote in local elections, and there's a strong case to be made for letting them vote in other elections too.

They are human beings after all...

[TAH6988]

37. Agree

They should be allowed to vote...right after they become citizens.

[aquart]

2. A greencard is not citizenship.

Citizens vote.

Only citizens vote.

If you don't know or understand what citizenship means, look it up.

I wouldn't vote for any idiot who trivialized my rights for a visitor with a greencard.

Edit: But I quite agree it is up to the citizens of this nation to defend it. All of us, not a permanent military underclass. And not paid mercenaries.

Allowing non-citizens to earn citizenship by fighting in the army smacks of empire.

If we can't defend our country ourselves, we don't deserve to have it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. Then you would agree that the draft should not apply

Or are you into cheap labor for the armed forces? I hope not.

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[doubles]

7. "Whatever happened to no taxation without representation?"

So a man willing to die for this country and pay taxes should not be able to vote?

Whatever happened to "No taxation without representation", isn't that why the war against the mother land was fought?

[TAH6988]

21. As I point out below

they ARE represented. Try a new tact.

[lostnfound]

56. Interestingly, citizen = voting not true when country founded.

I would have felt the same way you did until I learned that in the early years of this country, until 1920, citizenship didn't matter for voting (as long as you were a white male with property). A program on the subject also pointed out the absence of a constitutional 'right to vote' as a stunning omission in our constitution.

I found this link http://www.drummajorinstitute.org/plugin/template/dmi/30/888 which gives some history to the noncitizen voting issue.

[Nazgul35]

57. Before the progressive reforms...

non-citizens were allowed to vote in this country....so historically, you're on the wrong side of this debate....

:evilgrin:

ask yourself why the progressives took the vote away from the imigrants arriving in NYC......and you'll know why they did it....and who it hurt...

[Silverhair]

3. No. Only citizens should be able to vote.

A green card resident is on the way to becoming a citizen. I don't remember any more, but I think if they serve in our Armed Services that they can become citizens faster. When they complete the process, then they can vote. The right to select who shall make up our gov't is core right, and should be reserved for citizens.

I realize that I will probably get flamed for this view.

[kixot]

4. Interesting points.

i think this should get some more thought. If a person contributes just as much and sacrifices right alongside every day citizens than why should they be denied a say in the system? I guess an equally posed question would be "what is preventing them from seeking citizenship?".

[lostnfound]

59. YEARS of bureaucratic red tape at BICE(aka INS) is usually the answer. n/t

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. Anyone who lives here should be able to vote

That's reasonable.

Anyone who pays taxes should most certainly be able to vote.

That's fair.

[Silverhair]

8. So someone visits on election day...

buys a small item in a store, pays sales tax, & that qualifies that person to vote?

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. No, they don't live here, and I wasn't referring to sales tax but income &

property tax. If anyone pays income and property tax and cannot vote, that is taxation without representation :)

[TAH6988]

15. So if someone pays no income tax

and rents their house, they should NOT be allowed to vote even if they are citizens???

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. No

Citizenship should mean something more than that.

If you are not a citizen, you should not vote because you have NOT embraced your full role in our society.

[doubles]

12. Of course not, but people who live here permanently, can fight for

the country and pay taxes should be given a vote.

Permanent Residents are not foreigners on vistors visas. They are considered "US persons" by the state department.

I am shocked to read these responses on DU, people don't even understand the difference between a permanent resident and a tourist.

Remember this, NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION"?

[TAH6988]

17. They ARE representated

Legal residents (those with green cards) are counted for purposes of congressional representation. Even though they don't have the right to vote, they are REPRESENTED in Congress.

[VLC98]

27. Do you honestly think..

that "my" representatives in congress would give a shit what I, as a green card holder and 5 year resident of the US, think?

[TAH6988]

30. Depends on your district

I can promise you that in many districts in S. Calif the representatives care what the green card holders in their district think. BTE, what makes you think they give a rat's what I, a natural-born citizen, think?

[VLC98]

31. Good point, they probably don't care...

what you think, depending on your district to some extent. As far as myself, I'm not in S.California and I don't feel ready to become a US citizen because I don't want to denounce my country of birth. So I feel I'm in a political limbo.

[TAH6988]

33. Why does becoming

a US citizen "denounce the country of your birth?" If you are unwilling to "renonunce" your ties to that foreign country by becoming a US citizen, I don't really think you should be voting here anyway. :-)

[VLC98]

40. Not everyone living in the US

came here because it's such a great country and they couldn't wait to see the back of their own. I, for one, happened to marry an American serviceman who was unable to extend his overseas duty. I've lived here for 8 years in total and had a green card for 14 years now, but I cannot denounce or renounce and disrespect my loyalty to Britain, even with my fingers crossed. But, not to worry, I've already converted my husband from Raygun lover to staunch Democrat and I'm raising two fine dual national children who will use their vote wisely.

[TAH6988]

41. Being a dual citizen

does not renounce or disrespct your own "native" country. Where was your hubby stationed in the UK? I spent five years at Mildenhall.

[VLC98]

42. Well, I'll have to get back to you..

on the wording of the citizenship oath that I find disturbing. My husband was at Bentwaters for 3 years, Upper Heyford for 2 years and Mildenhall for 4 years. As you can tell, he loved England. When were you there?

[TAH6988]

43. From

1982-1985 and then from 2000-2002. Loved every minute of both tours.

Even the British cooking was better the second time around! :-)

[VLC98]

50. We were there from '94-'98.

and returned for a visit this year. We thought it looked and felt dreadful, largely due to the security situation. I don't think the base has had any money spent on it in years and I wouldn't be surprised if it closes eventually. Ah yes, British cooking..mine is typically bad but my hubby would give anything to have proper fish & chips again. BTW, my objections to the Oath of Allegiance to the US are below, in post #49.

[Silverhair]

10. Are you going to try to sell this to Joe & Jane Average? n/t

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. We don't need to.

Joe & Jane's cute beige grandchildren will teach them that while they are teaching them Spanish ;)

[JI7]

11. they should be allowed to become citizens, then vote

i think if they serve in the military they should be allowed to become citizens and then they can vote.

[rasputin1952]

18. If an individual is a citizen, they have the right to vote...

if they are not a citizen, they do not have the right to vote.

I MIGHT feel differently if they were conscripted for military service, but that issue is moot at this point.

Simple, realistic and straight forward.

:kick:

[Fall_No_Further]

19. Should any government service be restricted by citizenship?

No, really, should access to any service be restricted? If you live here, why shouldn't you have access to government services? People born here, American citizens simply by virtue of being fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on your POV), spend their whole lives on welfare. Purchase all their food on food stamps. Benefit from Medicaid. Every excess which people say aliens, legal or otherwise, would induldge in are already practiced here. Are these excesses common? Of course not. But neither is it common for an alien, no matter their legal status, to engage in the same oft-criticized behaviors Americans are condemned for. Indeed, most aliens work harder than many Americans, pay as much in taxes, and sacrifice more for the opportunity to be a part of this society. In light of all that, why should the mere _(mis)fortune_ of being _born_ here be enough to entitle you to more benefits than someone who may be--and quite possibly is--very productive, and who contributes profoundly to our society?

[TAH6988]

22. They are entitled

to all Govt "services."

[slackmaster]

20. Negative

If someone is willing to give their life for this country, should they not be allowed to vote?

That's an entirely separate question. I believe that any non-citizen who serves a tour of duty in the US military even during peaceful times should be granted citizenship.

Green card holders are subject to the draft when there is a draft, but so are people on temporary visitor's visas. I know this for a fact because during the Vietnam war a family member who was a citizen of India was called while visiting relatives in Pennsylvania for a few weeks to attend the birth of a child. He bailed out and went home rather than get inducted into the US Army.

Green card holders also legally have the option of leaving rather than serving. US citizens do not have a similar legal alternative at times when there is a draft.

[Meshuga]

23. In local elections, yes.

In the national level... tough question.

[Padraig18]

24. No!

I'm a naturalized citizen, so in no way do I harbor 'anti-immigrant' thoughts, but the Constitution is quite clear that the right to vote is given to citizens, native-born or naturalized.

[TAH6988]

25. That was emphatic

:-) And 100% correct, IMHO.

[Fall_No_Further]

26. Not talking about practicality, but...

Do you think that's the right decision? No question, that's how the Constitution reads, but do you think it should read that way? Or should the government operate more along the lines of what I've mentioned above in post 19? Why should fortune dictate who benefits from the American government? Why should you have been forced to go through the naturalization process to obtain rights which, by comparison with many Americans, you no doubt deserved far more than they?

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Every nation

Has the right AND obligation to set rules for citizenship. It is not a guarantee. If you are born here, it is.

That is right and proper. People who wish to come here SHOULD have to work hard to prove they are worthy.

[TAH6988]

29. "Deserved far more..."

How do you figure that? If you want to vote, become a citizen. What's the problem in that? No one forces people to immigrate to the US. Logically, one knows the rules on rights and citizenship BEFORE one decides to become a legal US resident. What's wrong with following the freaking rules?

[Fall_No_Further]

32. Nothing.

No one's advocated NOT following the rules, while they exist in their current form. But laws, by their nature, are mutable, and may therefore be shaped into more desirable forms; this is a foundation of why we think the right to vote matters, as it allows us to influence the future shape of the law.

It is clear, however, that there are some individuals, born in America, who as people frankly are poor examples of humanity. People who don't acknowledge any responsibility to either support themselves or contribute to the community, people who, if not criminals per se, are blatantly pathetic creatures. There are also many individuals, who see the promise of America, go there, and work hard. They contribute, they produce, they're responsible, and they're denied many benefits and rights that people enjoy who were merely fortunate, and not otherwise deserving of those benefits.

[Silverhair]

45. Accidental duplicate. Sorry. n/t

[DemVet]

34. No!

Citizenship has benefits - voting is one of them.

[Renew Deal]

35. No

They haven't earned citizenship. Voting is one of the many incentives. Citizenship is also an incntive of military service.

[lapislzi]

38. Taxation without representation

seems to be the American way these days.

If they're good enough to fight, die, and pay taxes, then that would suggest that they be allowed a say in decisions that affect them, don't you think?

[TAH6988]

39. Sigh

Once again, they ARE represented! Your use of Washington DC's slogan is irrelevant!

[DuctapeFatwa]

44. They are represented in the same way the Iraqis are in the "gov council"

but representation, in theory, anyway, means that you have a voice in choosing just who represents you.

Your candidate may lose, but if you voted, then you did have a voice in choosing him or her.

(I realize this assumes that the election is free and open and the votes are counted, which is a big assumption, but that is how it works in theory)

[lapislzi]

55. Sorry...didn't know DC had copyrighted that chestnut

They might be "represented" but they don't get to choose who represents them. That's free....how?

[Silverhair]

46. How about the "Starship Troopers" approach?

From Heinlen's book, not the movie. To be be able to vote or hold office a person has to perform two years of service. It can be military or peace corps or some type of service corp. Everyone would have the right to perform their two years of service, at any age above majority.

Just throwing this up to see what kind of discussion it gets. I don't seriously advocate it.

[hussar]

47. Permanent resident here

I understand how some of you feel and I guess I would feel the same way, there is only one reason I would like to vote and that is to get rid of * .

Are you allowed to hol dual citizenship in the US? I was under the impression it was all or nothing

[NewJeffCT]

48. no dual citizenship

My wife is going through the green card process now (it's been almost 2 years since we sent in our original application for a green card through marriage and still nothing!!!!)

But, you cannot hold dual citizenships. Part of becoming a US citizen is renouncing your prior citizenship.

[hussar]

52. Guess I'll stay with what I've got then

:shrug:

[VLC98]

49. I'm also a permanent resident..

and I basically agree with you. Considering I'm not a tax payer, I don't really feel I should be able to vote, but I don't think I can stay in the US if AWOL "wins" in 2004. As far as being a dual national, my understanding is that the US can't take your GB passport from you, but I have a problem with the Oath of Allegiance to the United States. It starts with..."I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, ofwhom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen". I also have no desire to say I would bear arms for the US or any other country for that matter, and I wouldn't want to say, "So help me God", as I am agnostic.

[hussar]

51. I agree about the God thing

too late for me bearing arms, already done that Brit Army, it certainly is an eye opener living here, I don't think I would give up my UK citizenship even though I'm too old to join up now.

[VLC98]

53. I'm too old and I'm a woman

but I still wouldn't feel confident saying I'd bear arms for the US. With these warmongering idiots in charge who knows how bad it could get! Thanks for serving BTW...I wish Brits valued servicemen & women as much as they do here.

[hussar]

54. Thanks

I think the truth of the matter regarding Brit veterans is that our goverment doesn't want to count N. Ireland as a war so why did they give me a medal for campaign service?

Agree with you about the warmogering I am now almost a pacifist thanks to enlightenment.

What's your story? what brought you here? do you like it?

[VLC98]

60. I think British education is worse than in the US..

I wasn't taught anything about politics, Northern Ireland or either of the world wars for that matter. Just the Industrial Revolution and the Bubonic plague! Even now I know more about US history than British, thanks to helping my 5th grader with his homework.

I'm here because I married a US Airman in 1987. He has 2 years until retirement but may have to stay past 20, looking at the current job market. I haven't settled well in the US, but we've lived in 3 states in 5 years which hasn't helped. I hope I can get used to living here, because we can't afford to go back, but AWOL and his accomplices are not helping! How about you?

[hussar]

61. I actually think education is better in Britain

I was talking to a kid in the local Safeway and his American history teacher is from Wales!!!

I'm here because I got divorced from my first wife (16yrs) and because I was a truck driver I was supposed to be very dumb and overweight as niether were or are true I couldn't find the sort of female company I desired. You are probably aware of the stigma attached to truck drivers in Britain and in many cases rightly so andyes I'm having a hard time over here too, no job etc. I have always worked since I was 16 and this is killing me but I am at college to try and improve my chances but with all W's cuts things still don't seem to be looking any better.

So I married a US lady and as I didn't have anything holdnig me in the UK, sold my house etc and came here.....looking like it was a mistake now!

[VLC98]

64. I hope things improve for you.

I can't imagine how difficult it would be for me if I had to get a job here, I don't even like driving. Btw, my Dad was a truck driver for Felixstowe dock company for 20 something years and he's one of the most intelligent (uneducated) people I know, and just a bit overweight!

My husband has been taking college courses now that his retirement is approaching. I think it's outrageous to see what I would call an ordinary job, paying a crappy wage, asking for a bachelors degree. On top of that, the area we're in has seen a huge increase in house prices (and we rent). It's all very depressing.

[AP]

58. Residents were allowed to vote in US until early 20th century...

...when a huge anti-immigrant mood swept the country. (It might have been the late 19th century.)

If I were alive back then I would have argued for their right to right to vote.

I definitely think immigrants who aren't citizens have a stake it what happens in the US and should be entitled to vote at least in state and local elections, and maybe in Federal races other than the presidency.

Tell me that you, as an American, if you lived abroad and were subjected to the policy of the government, wouldn't want at least a vote so that you could have a say in policy that impacted on your health and happiness and wealth.

[Catherine Vincent]

62. Only if they promise to vote for all Democrats!

:-)

[Cronus Protagonist]

63. Sounds like a good compromise to me

Do you think you can get it through Congress in time for 2004?

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[_Jumper_]

65. Yes

They would vote Democratic. We need all the votes we can get with the nation being evenly divided.

[Undemcided]

66. No

Only allowing citizens to vote goes to the very heart of representative government.

[fujiyama]

67. Well, here's a question

for everyone here. Since permanent residents are required to register with the selective services and can therefore be drafted why not let them vote?

Frankly I don't think non-citizens should either be allowed to vote, OR be drafted (though I don't think ANYONE should be drafted). But really, the process to get naturalized takes too much time. While I understand there must be criminal checks of all applicants, some of the questions they ask on the application are just plain idiotic. Why would anyone honestly admit they are a terrorist? They still ask if a person was a member of the communist party for crying out loud.

The process must make much more sense and potential terrororist shouldn't really be allowed to make it in the country in the first place.

Then there's the exam of knowledge about the history of the nation. While it is quite simple, my guess is many (possibly most) natural born citizens couldn't pass it.

[Robin Hood]

68. If you pay taxes,

Then you should have a say in how your tax dollars are spent. Isn't that fair?