Kerry: Dead returned at night so media can't record their return.

[blm]

>>>>>>>
He assailed the Bush administration for treating the war in Iraq as a "public relations-managed affair."

"Shame on this administration for trying to hide the consequences of war from the American people," he said.

"Here we are, creating a new generation of veterans, bringing home our wounded in the dead of night so the news media can't see them; bringing home our dead in coffins draped with the American flag in the dead of night so the news media can't record their return," Kerry said.
>>>>>>>
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1112kerry12.html

[sfecap]

1. "The consequences of war..."

Bill Number: H.J.RES.114
Issue: Defense Policy
Date: 10/10/2002
Sponsor: Bill sponsored by Hastert,R-IL


Roll Call Number: 237
Bill passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

Vote to pass a joint resolution that would authorize the use of force against Iraq.



What does John Kerry say to the family of the last man to die in Iraq?

[blm]

3. Same thing Dean would if Biden-Lugar had passed.

Bush did it the WRONG WAY. And noone expected that Bush's team would be so incompetent in the diplomacy AND the military strategy since it was basically the same team that formed a successful coalition in 1991.

[sfecap]

5. This is about Kerry and his vote.

He voted for this war.


Nothing will change that. Ever.


Perhaps he ought to go meet a few coffins, and he can take Gephardt, Lieberman, and Edwards along.

[blm]

11. If you're so sincere about that sanctimony you display on Kerry threads

then you must support Kucinich who was the only REAL antiwar candidate and one who was actually trying to put up obstacles to Bush, heh?

Instead you chose someone who was for theIWR with the Biden-Lugar amendment. And then said Bush should go in, but give it 30 days. Somehow, your sanctimony in Kerry threads rings false.

[JohnKleeb]

15. but hes unelectable

;),
BTW I too was disappointed that Kerry voted IWR but politicans who have supported wars have come out against it, would you rather he act like Bush is like its nothing? :shrug: and I should be a purist IWR person being a Kucinich supporter and IWR is important to me btw.

[TLM]

21. Again you can not defend Kerry so attack Dean

and attack Dean supporters for not backing Kucinich. Which is the lamest grasping at straws meme.

"then you must support Kucinich who was the only REAL antiwar candidate"

It is not about being anti-war... it is about being anti-war without just cause. Nobody supports Dean because they think he is an anti-all war pacifist. Rather because his approach to Iraq was reasoned and consistent. Dean supported the efforts of the inspectors through the UN to the end of disarming Iraq. Dean was very clear about the criteria that would be necessary to justify preemptive unilateral action against Iraq, and those requirements were not met.


"and one who was actually trying to put up obstacles to Bush, heh?"

As opposed to Kerry, who with Gephardt, Edwards, and Lieberman rolled out the red carpet for Bush.


"Instead you chose someone who was for the IWR with the Biden-Lugar amendment."

An amendment which brought the IWR into the realm of sane action, requiring the UN, retaining congressional authority, and NOT allowing for the take over of another country.

Stop trying to claim that the IWR and BL were the same thing, they were NOT.


"And then said Bush should go in, but give it 30 days. Somehow, your sanctimony in Kerry threads rings false."

What rings false is the lie to just repeated. Please cite the quote where Dean says, "Bush should go in, but give it 30 days." What Dean said was that IF there were weapons found, and IF there was proof of a real imminent threat, and IF the UN refused to act, then and only then would unilateral preemptive action be justified.

You ignore all the factors that Dean prefaced that statement with, just so you can try to argue that Dean is just as bad on the war issue as Kerry. That's your only defense... attack Dean, and you can’t even do that without spinning and lying about what he said.

Do you think people are too stupid to notice this?

[blm]

27. If you can't see paraphrasing when it's there, that's your problem.

The full quote has been posted hundreds of times here.

[TLM]

49. Paraphrasing is when you use different words with the same meaning...

not when you omit the parts that prove your presentation is dishonest.

[blm]

55. 30-60 days, 30-60 days, 30-60 days.

"I never doubted the necessity...blah, blah....remove the weapons of mass destruction." Dean - March 17.

[TLM]

60. Again you prove my point... you can not cite a whole quote.

You must spin, omit, and edit the quotes.

[DrFunkenstein]

54. Um, Dean Actually Said 30-60 Days

He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

"Dean is stirring up antiwar people," a senior advisor to one of his Democratic opponents says. "They are against all war, not just against war without U.N. support. When we do go to war, and Dean says he's with our troops and president in time of national crisis, the antiwar activists he's cultivated will turn on him quickly."

Dean says that's fine, and denies that there's any inconsistency. "I think people are madly trying to find one," he says. "It's part of the game."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

[TLM]

62. As ususal Dr. FUnk you omit the line prior to that statement...

in order to prop up the lie. Why omit these paragraphs, which come before what you quoted and show that Dean clealy said that the conditions I had mentioned above had not been met? You ignore the straight out clear statement that, "It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says." And act like his later statement wasn't prefaced by this fact.

Why do you folks have to misrepresent like this? If Dean really held the position you claimed, there'd be no reason for you to edit and try to hide the parts of articles that prove otherwise.


http://fordean.org/aa/issues/press_view.asp?ID=398

Hence, today's phone calls. It's Thursday, Feb. 6, the day after Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations of evidence of Iraq's noncompliance with Resolution 1441. Edwards calls it "a powerful case." Kerry says it's "compelling." Lieberman, of course, is already in his fatigues.

Dean isn't sold. It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says.

From Washington come the barbs -- The New Republic calls it proof he's "not serious." ABC News' "The Note" wonders if he's backed himself into a corner. Dean has opposed the pending war because he didn't think President Bush had made his case. If he doesn't support military action now, the thinking goes, then he's just contradicting himself. Or, at the very least, he's been put in an untenable and -- for the moment, at least inside war-ready Washington, unpopular -- position.

[sfecap]

23. What TLM said.

Thank you, TLM.

:-)

[flpoljunkie]

59. This is not about IWR; it is about the fight for NH between Kerry & Dean..

If it were, your ire, sfecap, would be directed toward the candidates who destroyed any chance for the Biden-Lugar amendment by siding with Bush--those who were at Bush's side supporting him in the Rose Garden.

Those candidates are Gephardt and Lieberman--not John Kerry.

[sfecap]

63. You don't see me supporting either of them...

...do you?

Kerry's vote was wrong, IMO.

He lost my support with it.

[TLM]

64. Gephardt and Lieberman are just as guilty as Kerry...

If not more so. The fact is, however, this thread is about Kerry because he is the one now trying to make political gains by complaining about the treatment of the bodies of kids he helped send to die in the first place.

If Gephardt or Lieberman had said this, I’d give them a ration of shit for it too.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uzybone]

14. but you turn a blind eye

to a totally obsessed Kerry basher attacking Kerry for doing the right thing now. Hypocrisy is a sad sad thing.

[TLM]

30. He's not doing the right thing now...

The right thing would be to admit he was wrong to support this war, renounce his support for it, and file articles on impeachment against Bush.

[Uzybone]

38. ok

he has renounced his support for the war. Your not saying he still supports the invasion now are you?

Until your guy or any other prominent Dem begins calling for Bushboys impeachment I dont think you should expect kerry to do it either. Its the right thing to do, but its also political suicide at this time. Even Kucinich or Sharpton isnt calling for impeachment, and they have nothing to lose.

But I agree with you about admitting the IWR vote was a mistake.

[TLM]

48. WHere as Kerry said he no longer supports invasion?

He said in the debates that the invasion was the right decision:

And Senator Kerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bush ordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA): George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.

[TLM]

12. No matter how many times you repeat the meme...

Biden Lugar was NOT even close to the same as the IWR that Kerry supported.

BL required the UN, did not abdicate congressional authority, did not allow for an objective of regime change, and did not give Bush sole authority to decide when all diplomatic means were exhausted.

In fact the only thing that the BL bill had in common with the IWR was both were about use of force against Iraq. Saying they are the same is like saying that a cop arresting a guy is the same and beating the guy to death because both involve use of force.


And I note that again you only defense of Kerry's actions is to try to attack Dean... very telling indeed.


"And noone expected that Bush's team would be so incompetent in the diplomacy AND the military strategy since it was basically the same team that formed a successful coalition in 1991. "

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?! Jesus Christ BLM, EVERYBODY was saying that exact thing... including Dean. There were millions of people saying over and over what a mess this would be... that we'd win quick and then the "peace" would be horrific. How can you even try to claim that nobody knew that Bush's crew would be this bad?

You are really getting desperate to defend Kerry on what is simply indefensible.

[Upfront]

19. Wrong About None

Millions knew it would be a cluster F**. Glad Kerry is bringing this out and going after Bush* instead of Dean.

[TLM]

4. Oh that's an easy one...

"What does John Kerry say to the family of the last man to die in Iraq?"


He stands in front of an aircraft carrier and says, "Vote for me!"

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. Vote for John Kerry and there won't be any unecessary wars

works for me.

[Scott Lee]

82. LOL!! I guess thats why Kerry voted for the Iraq war?

Come you Kerryites. You gotta be more consistent than this!

[sandnsea]

18. Afghanistan was the same

Disrespecting veterans in any war is wrong and Bush has done it since he took office.

And Kerry will say the same thing he's been saying, war as a last resort. Bush chose war as a first resort. This is Bush's war and if we really mean what we say about taking it to Bush, then we ought to take it to Bush and stop shutting down every Democrat who 'voted for war'. No Democrat voted for what Bush has done.

And no single Democrat can change the course of this country alone. Some Presidential candidates better get that idea in their heads in a hurry.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seaglass]

28. Thank you so much for saying this.

I think if Dean saw how many of his supporters behaved on this board he would be ashamed.

[sfecap]

32. I doubt that Kerry would feel the same way.

n/t

[sfecap]

31. I do support my candidate with good ideas and energy.

I do not support Kerry's vote, his politicization of it, and his lame assed excuses for it. He knew damn well what was going to happen.

It was a dead wrong vote.

His point(s) may be valid, but he also understands well the consequences of his vote. I am certain that John Kerry feels the pain of the families who have lost loved ones.

The fact is that the Resolution would have passed without his vote. He had an opportunity to be a leader and listen to the millions who opposed the war. Perhaps he should have listened to the speeches of Robert Byrd. He chose to sniff the political winds and do the expedient and politically "safe" thing.

Shame on him.

Believe me Chris, I AM part of the solution. And there are millions just like me, you can count on that.

The problem is politicians who do the safe and politically expedient thing...and then whine about the body bags.

The solution is for people like me to take our country back.

That is exactly what we are going to do.

We are going to put Gov. Howard Dean in the White House.

That you can also count on.


BTW...if you have been reading these boards for long you would also know that virtually every time anything positive is posted about my candidate, a cadre of serial Dean bashers descend. on the thread. It's virtually guaranteed. (They probably take the lead from the actions of their candidate...) Perhaps you may want to direct your "advice" their way. It would probably go far in reducing the acrimony between the camps.

[TLM]

33. Kerry shares the blame, yes

as does everybody who voted to give Bush the authority to dowhat he is doing.

"Are you insinuating that John Kerry is responsible for the death of soldiers in Iraq? Why would you do that?"

If your kid was sent to fight in a war and died... would you not consider those who voted for the war responsable for the death?

"Are you insinuating that he isn't making a valid point about recognizing the costs of war. That our president is trying to hide these costs?"

The point is valid... but my problem is with Kerry's hypocrisy. He helped to create the very problem he is complaining about. It would be like if I got a cheap hand gun and shot you, then turned around and complained about how easy access to cheap hand guns is a big problem.

"I've watched your posts on this board for too long. Let me just say this, you are part of the problem on DU. Not part of the solution. Why dont you support your candidate with good ideas and energy?"

If you don't think I support my candidate with positive posts, good ideas, and energy, you're not being honest about having read my posts.

[sandnsea]

35. Chris, explain the damn vote

I think John is the most amazing person and would do so much for this country and the world, more than any almost any other person I can think of today.

But people need to know exactly what he was thinking when he decided to vote for the resolution.

Was it his concern about weapons of mass destruction and his knowledge of how serious a problem they really are?

Was it his concern about Saddam Hussein in general?

Was it the simple fact that Iraq has the oil and we have to change the dynamics in the ME?

Was it political expediency?

Most people don't care about his reasons, they just want the truth. Just knock it out of the park once and for all so we can get this guy elected!

[chimpymustgo]

41. Damn - the very first post! How about applauding Kerry for his statement.

Vitriol - early and often.

[chimpymustgo]

43. Damn - the very first post! How about applauding Kerry for his statement.

Vitriol - early and often.

[TLM]

2. Shame on Kerry....

for voting for this damn war in the first place, and flip flopping once he saw his support for the war was hurting his career objectives.

Mr. Kerry where were you BEFORE these kids were coming home in boxes? Maybe instead of complaining about how their corpses are being treated, you should have gotten off your cowardly craven ass and fought to keep them alive?

It is crass and disgusting for Kerry to now try to use this issue for political gain, when he helped send those kids to their deaths in the first fucking place.

Kerry’s the kind of guy who’d piss on your rug, then try to sell you carpet cleaner.

[blm]

8. That's sickening in its disrespect. And you call me a basher

for saying Dean is a compromising centrist pretending he's a populist now.


Do you notice the difference in vitriol, TLM?

Kerry negotiated for a better bill that SAVED more lives in Iran and Syria who Bush also wanted to invade. He also preserved the UN in the process as much as possible, including weapons inspections. That's called dealing with a White House who ALREADY HAD THE VOTES, thanks to Miller and Lieberman, to HAVE his war his way.

Obviously you would prefer Bush have that real blank check. I doubt the UN, Iran and Syria would agree with you.

[sfecap]

10. Unbelieveable...

...how you spin and spin...Kerry could simply have voted NO, just like the Senior Senator from Massachusetts.

But he didn't.

He considered the politics, and voted accordingly. He knew EXACTLY what he was voting for, and the consequences.

Pathetic.

[blm]

16. Do you understand that Bush HAD the votes already?

He had them for HIS war, HIS way which meant NO involvement of the UN , NO weapons inspectors, and further invasions of Iran and Syria. That's NOT spin, it's FACT. If you can't understand that SOME dem lawmakers had to force a better bill, that's your problem.

[sfecap]

20. That makes it even more egregious and political.

Kerry could have voted against the invasion.

He would have made a statement with his vote.

He would have shown that he was listening to the millions of people in the streets.

He could have shown some political courage. He had an opportunity to show leadership...

But he didn't.



Are you shouting at me? :-)

[blm]

29. A "statement" doesn't SAVE lives, and it doesn't preserve the UN.

Negotiations for better, stricter resolution save lives.

[TLM]

34. And had Kerry stood up and voted no...

Bush would be doing the exact same thing right now... the difference is that Kerry would have credibility when opposing this war, and He'd likely be the dem front-runner.

He'd probably even have my vote.

[sandnsea]

47. Then he ought to have your vote anyway

He fought Bush at every turn on this war, was always the first to take on Bush, confront his rush to war, force him to go to the UN and criticize his lack of diplomacy. That Resolution helped that process, by the way. Without that Resolution, Bush would have been in Iraq last October and nobody would have known the lengths Bush was willing to go to get this war. AND I damn well guarantee you WMD would have been planted a year ago because there wouldn't have been inspectors in there for 4 months to argue with the 'found weapons'.

If you know he's the best guy for President, you might want to ask yourself if we're going to have a chance for a President like Kerry in your foreseeable future. I hate that we're going to miss this opportunity over a misunderstanding of his vote and be kicking ourselves for the next 10 years because of it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

50. Some prefer Dean

despite his BushLite politics. It is useless. They hate Kerry.

[sandnsea]

52. No, they love Kerry

I'm just worried they won't stop punishing him until it's too late.

[TLM]

67. Attack Dean... because you can;t defend Kerry.

That should tell you something about Kerry... the only defense is to attack the guy asking the hard questions.

[TLM]

66. No he ought not have any democratic votes...

"He fought Bush at every turn on this war"

Yeah except for that part where he flat out said he supported bush in the debates, and voted for the fucking war!


"If you know he's the best guy for President"

He's not. He's a coward who let us all down when it counted most.

Fuck Kerry and the borowed harley he rode in on.

[TLM]

26. Dean's centrism never got our kids killed BLM

What is sickening is that you would dare to try and even compare the two.


"Kerry negotiated for a better bill that SAVED more lives in Iran and Syria who Bush also wanted to invade."

I'm sure that makes the parents of all those dead american kids feel a lot better, BLM.



"He also preserved the UN in the process as much as possible, including weapons inspections."

Oh yeah... sure did a bang up job there.


"That's called dealing with a White House who ALREADY HAD THE VOTES, thanks to Miller and Lieberman, to HAVE his war his way."


Wait so Lieberman is to blame for his support of the war, but Kerry is not?

Kerry is the one who flat out said Saddam had NUKES in order to try and hype up this war. Kerry supported Bush on this war and no amount of hir splitting will change that. Kerry said he supported this war in the debates... said he supported Bush and felt it was the right decision.

[blm]

45. You paraphrase and its OK, I paraphrase and all hell breaks loose.

HAHAHAh.....

So....your boy couldn't stand against Reagan-Bush on IranContra and all the lives lost there and that is fine with you? Puhleeze.

Kerry helped stop three wars. Vietnam, he exposed the supplying of weapons to both Iran and Iraq (which prolonged that war), and exposed the illegal wars in Central America. And you think he's worthless.

[sfecap]

65. And he helped start one - Iraq.

What did he forget when he cast his vote?

Did he forget that people get killed?

Did he forget the horrors?

Did he forget what he said many years ago?

How do you ask the last man to die in Iraq?

[TLM]

69. I can cite the exact quote if you'd like...

Kerry Said “If You Don’t Believe In The U.N. ... Or You Don’t Believe Saddam Hussein Is A Threat With Nuclear Weapons, Then You Shouldn’t Vote For Me.” (Ronald Brownstein, “On Iraq, Kerry Appears Either Torn Or Shrewd,” Los Angeles Times, 1/31/03)

"So....your boy couldn't stand against Reagan-Bush on IranContra and all the lives lost there and that is fine with you? Puhleeze."

How desperate... Dean wasn't even in office in the 80's. And KErry's "stand" in Iran COntra sure brought those Bush's down didn;t it... really screwed them up good. And boy it sure is a good thing Kerry learned about the criminal actions of the Bush family so he could prevent them from abusing power again.


"Kerry helped stop three wars. Vietnam,"

You mean by lying about throwing his metals over the white house fence?

"he exposed the supplying of weapons to both Iran and Iraq (which prolonged that war), and exposed the illegal wars in Central America. And you think he's worthless."

What he did then does not change what he is doing now... and yes when we needed him to stand up to Bush, he folded like a cheap deck chair.

[Scott Lee]

83. Spin of Hannity proportions!

Holy moly! Let's see, Kerry, by voting FOR the war, "saved" people from "worse war"?

Somebody stop the spinning tea cup ride - I wanna get off!

[Cocoa]

9. this is Bush's war

I'm glad that ALL the candidates are criticizing Bush's war, including those who voted for the IWR, which I don't see as meaning they support Bush's war.

The idea that voting for the IWR means you can't comment on the war is a faulty idea, despite the fact that many pundits are repeating it. I'm glad that Kerry doesn't think this way, and speaks his mind on the war.

[jpgray]

13. Kerry just gets crapped on no matter what he does

It's a fact of life at DU.

[Scott Lee]

81. Nobody craps on Kerry more than his supporters

By their seeming inability to stay away from the negative sleaze attacks on Dean.

Keep it up, Kerryites. I'm sure you're painting a wonderful picture of what kind of spirit drives "Team Kerry". America is watching.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Thank You!

stars to you. Goddamn the Kerry bashers- they are so tiresome in their mindless mantra.
'Yes' on IWR = I want War = I want to kill people. Yeah the math is so fucking simple.

[Forkboy]

39. And you've just been full of love on Dean threads NYFM

But of course when you do it it isn't bashing.

[TLM]

40. Kerry said in teh debates that he supported Bush...

and felt the war was the right decision.

Kerry supported this war, voted to allow Bush to make war, and as such he shares the blame for the consequences.

[TLM]

37. Kerry said in the debates he supported bush

and that the war was the right decision.

"The idea that voting for the IWR means you can't comment on the war is a faulty idea, despite the fact that many pundits are repeating it. I'm glad that Kerry doesn't think this way, and speaks his mind on the war."

I'm not saying he can't comment... I'm saying he's a fucking hypocrite. A cowardly craven little hypocrite who put our kids in harm's way to advance his own career... just like his frat brother.

[sandnsea]

42. The war, or the vote?

I don't remember him saying the war was the right decision. He said on Matthews, I think, you can call Bush's war anything you want, including a mistake, that it wasn't right to do this the way Bush did it. Kerry would still have inspectors in Iraq and be talking to the French and Germans, to this day, if it would resolve the Iraq problem and avoid war. That's what he said.

[TLM]

53. Read what Kerry said....

And Senator Kerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bush ordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA): George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.

[sandnsea]

77. Supported disarming

That's what he supports. He doesn't support the way Bush did it.

At the time, Kucinich said:

"Inspections should continue. They worked before. They can work again."

Kerry would have preferred that as well. Funny thing though, none of these anti-war candidates ever deal with how they would have gotten inspections into Iraq in the first place. This is so convenient for Dean and Kucinich to take the position of supporting inspections; while Kerry, Gephardt & Edwards made the tough decision to authorize force to get the inspectors in there in the first place.

[ChrisHeinz]

25. Have you ever read what Kerry

said on the day of his vote? If you had, than you would realize how unfair and shrill you attack is.

In case you want to educate yourself, try this out.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

particularly ..snip...

I want to underscore, this Administration began with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some Democrats supported it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force, not only to enforce all U.N. resolutions related to Iraq but also to produce regime change in Iraq and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take. I am pleased that our pressure and questions pushed the Administration to adopt some important changes in language.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force against Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use U.S. Armed Forces to defend the "national security" of the United States - a power he already has under the Constitution as Commander-in-Chief - and to enforce all "relevant" Security Council relations related to Iraq. None of these resolutions, or for that matter any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, call for regime change.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. Thanks again Chris

I'm afraid we now have a lot of AFSMCE and SEIU people to win back over to our side. They need to understand national defense and what it means this election, and that it's not all about the guy who can act the most angry about Bush.
The suggestions that JK is (or was) irresponsible in his vote really get me pissed off.

[TLM]

44. I read what Kerry said in the debates...

Which was that he supports Bush on the war, and that the war was the right decision.


Those kids are not dead because of the first version of the IWR... they are dead because of the version that Kerry voted for and supported. Kerry's political waffling doesn't make those kids any less dead.

What Kerry did was akin to finding some rapist attacking a woman, and instead of trying to stop the mad man, simply bargaining with him to get him to use a condom and promise to only rape this one woman. Then a few weeks later standing up and complaining about how rape victims are treated by the system.

[blm]

46. Gee...all that sanctimony and you don't support Kucinich?

The hypocrisy on the Iraq war is YOURS.

[TLM]

57. Again no defense of Kerry's actions... just personal atttacks

BLM you only defense of Kerry seems to be that people who are against the war he supported somehow can only support Kucinich.

That's just stupid.

First off as I said before:

It is not about being anti-war... it is about being anti-war without just cause. Nobody supports Dean because they think he is an anti-all war pacifist. Rather because his approach to Iraq was reasoned and consistent. Dean supported the efforts of the inspectors through the UN to the end of disarming Iraq. Dean was very clear about the criteria that would be necessary to justify preemptive unilateral action against Iraq, and that those requirements were not met.

Also, I'm not a one issue voter... there are lots and lots of other reasons I support Dean over Kucinich. I think Kucinich is a fine man, but I do not think he is leadership material.

And the fact is you hae no excuse for what Kerry did and no way to defend his support for Bush's war. So you try to attack Dean or attack those who question Kerry.

[blm]

61. Dean said he "never doubted the necessity...."

And my problem is with hypocrites. Kucinich supporters have never been hypocrites, their views are consistent with their candidate who put himself up personally as an obstacle to war at rallies and legal maneuvers. They rarely act sanctimonious about the war, yet, many Deanies drip sanctimony on every Kerry, Edwards or Gephardt thread when their guy never showed up at ANY protest, and supported Biden-Lugar version of the IWR, which STILL would have landed us in Iraq.

[TLM]

70. Biden Lugar would NOT have landed us in Iraq...

Because bush could not have met the conditions of the bill... so please stop repeating this dishonest meme.

And again... the issue is not that folks were against taking any action at all against Iraq. Being against the Kerry supported invasion and take over with no threat to the US, without the UN, doesn't mean the only other alturnative is being anti-all war ever.

You try so hard to make this an either/or situation to avoid the middle ground of supporting continued inspections and action against Iraq only if a real threat was demonstrated and then only to the end of disarming Iraq, not taking over.

You act like one can only be 100% for Bush's take over of Iraq or 100% against war in general. More dishonestly. You can't cite a whole quote because the quote in context proves you are misrepresenting what was said.

[Karmadillo]

72. What conditions of Biden-Lugar could Bush not have met?

n/t

[TLM]

76. UN support for one... WMD for another

and BL allowed for disarming if weapons were found, not take over and invasion. No take over and no invasion means no 130k troops deployed in Iraq to get killed every day.

While we might have had some level of force deployed IF weapons were found, it would have been to the end of bombing those sites, not taking over Iraq. It is the invasions and take over that requires the massive force.

[sandnsea]

80. Did Bush get a UN resolution?

Yep, he sure did. And he'd have said Iraq was not cooperating and laid out the exact same 'mushroom cloud' scenario and we have to protect ourselves and mixing up terrorism and Iraq and the whole mess. We'd be right where we're at with Biden-Lugar.

And today I hear Dean dare to call Clark out on his pre-war position. HUGE mistake. Clark doesn't have the same anti-war history of Kerry and he'll pull Dean's whole anti-war fairy tale down in a week.

[Karmadillo]

84. Are you sure that's accurate?

From reading the text of Biden-Lugar, it appears UN support can be trumped by claiming a "grave" threat from Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction program". Thus, it seems likely Bush would have claimed a "grave" threat and we'd be right where we are now. Inability to support the "grave" threat with evidence after the war would have simply been dismissed as the fault of "bad intelligence".

Or so it seems to me, anyway. Hard to see how the resolution would have stopped an Administration set on going to war.

[sandnsea]

51. No, it's letting a rapist go

Because you think the police officer who is going to catch him is a crook. Do you let the police officer go ahead and catch the rapist? And if the police officer kills the rapist instead of arresting him, is that your fault for wanting to protect the woman who was going to be raped?

[TLM]

58. Huh... ?

Care to diagram it?

"Because you think the police officer who is going to catch him is a crook."

Who is the police officer? You added a new party to the analogy.

"Do you let the police officer go ahead and catch the rapist? And if the police officer kills the rapist instead of arresting him, is that your fault for wanting to protect the woman who was going to be raped? "


In my example Bush was the rapist, Iraq was the victim, and Kerry rather than trying to stop the rape simply bargained with the rapist to wear a rubber a limit his rapes to this one victim.

So who is the police officer?

[sandnsea]

79. You've got the wrong analagy

Iraq is the rapist, Bush is the cop and Kerry is the citizen who has to decide whether to report the rapist to the crooked cop or let the rapist keep on terrorizing women. That is the correct analagy, whether you want to accept it or not.

[DrFunkenstein]

68. Gee...An Isolated Quote Vs. Every Other F'n Thing He's Said

You convinced me.

That you are transparent and everyone can see right through your crap. People disagree with Kerry's vote, but no one makes rape metaphors quite like you do. You are a class act.

[TLM]

74. What isolated quote... he was asked directly in the debates

and this was his answer...

And Senator Kerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bush ordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA): George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.



"That you are transparent and everyone can see right through your crap. People disagree with Kerry's vote, but no one makes rape metaphors quite like you do."

Care to point out what was inaccurate about it? That's the defense that you and BLM have both used, that Kerry bargained down the scope of Bush's war instead of trying to STOP HIM! He let Bush take over one country, murder the civilians of one country, in order to prevent him from doing it to two or three. THat's the defense... it is used in this very thread.

[DrFunkenstein]

75. Are You Somehow Refuting Me?

How is that not an isolated quote against everything else Kerry has said since it became clear that Bush would not perform even to his own father's level of competence?

Don't you think you are attributing that quote a little more importance than it really has? Not that you would make such a cheap attack or anything. It was probably an accident.

[TLM]

78. SO what you are saying is that what Kerry says is unimportant...

because it changes?

"How is that not an isolated quote against everything else Kerry has said since it became clear that Bush would not perform even to his own father's level of competence?"

That quote was from the second debate, when the level of Bush's incompetence was already very clear.

Are you saying Kerry was lying in the debates when asked a direct question about his support of the invasion? Or are you just trying to avoid the fact that Kerry's own words directly contradict your spin?

[David Zephyr]

24. Good for Kerry!

And thanks BLM for bringing this post to us. :thumbsup:

[CWebster]

56. And in 30 years will they talk about the atrocities of Iraq...

The way they are now talking about the "unchecked train of atrocities" that occurred in Viet Nam on a daily basis. Such is the true nature of war behind the shiny medals and homecoming parades.

[Nlighten1]

71. Riiiiight

Like the media would not go out at night to cover some "wrongdoing" by Clinton. They are whoring for their bosses in the Military/Media complex

[MagicMan]

73. When did the policy

of not allowing filming of returning soldiers bodies go into effect? Thats something I never hear reported.