Explain something to me, DU

[jpgray]

"Shame on this administration for trying to hide the consequences of war from the American people," he said.

"Here we are, creating a new generation of veterans, bringing home our wounded in the dead of night so the news media can't see them; bringing home our dead in coffins draped with the American flag in the dead of night so the news media can't record their return,"

Sounds good, right? Too bad John Kerry is the one who said it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=698803

So let me get this straight--Kerry isn't allowed to criticize Bush? What would you have him do, exactly? Ignore the problems because he made a mistake when cast his vote for the IWR? If another Democrat made this statement, he'd be getting cheered on by people on DU. Why does Kerry get attacked for criticism of Bush? This doesn't make any sense to me.

[HFishbine]

1. I don't think

anybody attacked him for criticizing Bush, just for voting for the war. Regardless of his vote. I'm glad he's speaking up.

[jpgray]

4. How about this?

"It is crass and disgusting for Kerry to now try to use this issue for political gain"

[HFishbine]

6. Uh, Yeah

Okay. That one surely misses the good that Kerry is doing by speaking out now.

[Terwilliger]

2. he should have been as willing to criticize him by not voting YES on IWR

if he says "I made a mistake in giving Bush his authority to go to war unilaterally" then I might give him some credit...but, you know, it's not about DUers bitching about his seeming flip-flop...it's the Pukes who will make more of it than Democrats can.

[jpgray]

7. Until he admits his mistake, he can't criticize Bush?

That still doesn't make any sense to me. In my view, most valid criticisms of Bush are valuable and should be supported.

[Terwilliger]

10. no, until he admits his mistake, he's got littrle credibility with me

I said it is the Republicans who will make the most hay out of his dualistic attitude on the issue.

[jpgray]

11. Okay, i'll give it a rest. (nt)

[Jacobin]

17. What you said.

I'm still waiting for Kerry to stop spinning and admit he made a dreadful mistake. And apologize for it.

And VOW never to do something so foolish for perceived political gain again.

[jpgray]

20. But this isn't "spinning"

This is a real injustice happening! He has a responsibility, especially since his vote helped send them into this hellhole, to speak out against the dishonor being done.

[Terwilliger]

27. Who said he shouldn't speak out?

Again, I just wish he hadn't made the mistake in the first. I don't pretend that John Kerry should now just shutup. Who says that?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

33. TLM is a hard-Deanie

what do you expect?

[jpgray]

34. I don't expect anything, but I'm not going to be silent about it

I just think both those who voted for and those who voted against IWR should be able to criticize Bush without being attacked. Kerry should admit his mistake, but in the meantime I'd like all of our Senators, not just the twenty-three with their heads on straight, to come out with harsh criticism of this mishandled and unjust war. Those who sent the troops over have a particular repsonsibility to make amends, and the easiest way to start is by getting the message out. Would I like for Kerry to say "I screwed up"? You bet.

[arcane1]

35. why should all of DU have to explain one person's post?

it's TLM's opinion, so what? We all have them...

:shrug:

[jpgray]

36. It's more than one post, head on over to the thread (nt)

[arcane1]

38. why aren't you in that thread...?

Taking this issue up with the actual posters? DU is not collectively responsible for the words of a few

[RapidCreek]

12. Yea pretty much

that's called hypocracy....

RC

[jpgray]

16. It isn't "hypocracy (sic)"

One should care about the treatment of soldiers even in a war one supported. Why is he disqualified for criticizing Bush's coverban on our returning casualties because he supported the war intially? He has even more of a duty in my opinion to combat any injustices like this since they resulted from his vote. That isn't hypocrisy, it's responsibility.

edit: one little (sic) in the title for small-minded people who like to jump on perceived spelling errors when none exist. :)

[Jacobin]

18. I know. It's "hypocrisy"

[jpgray]

21. Note the post above mine. I know how to spell (nt)

[RapidCreek]

42. You know how to spell, do you?

Before you get cute about other people's spelling abilities, perhaps you should work on your own.

Why is he disqualified for criticizing Bush's coverban on our returning casualties because he supported the war (intially}?

RC

[RapidCreek]

43. The treatment of soldiers wouldn't be an issue

If he hadn't condemned them to the whims of a fascist dictator.

RC

[LoneStarLiberal]

3. Because Around Here...

Because around these parts, it's all about the ideological purity. If you were a Representative or Senator and you cast a vote that people don't like, then you are permanently horrible and forever shall carry the scarlet "R" and have forfeited your right to ever say anything critical of the Republicans.

However, if you were never in a position to cast a Congressional vote, you are a saint and a pinnacle of resistance and a beacon of blissful liberal light who will certainly slay all the nasty dragons lurking around the Beltway.

Or something like that.

[Terwilliger]

9. huh?

So, if Kerry voted to ban abortions, you'd listen to him on all those other issues?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for the IWR is similar to those in California who voted for AHH-nold Schwarzenegger (Bill Lockyer!): utterly stupid

[Bandit]

15. Every vote they cast is on record (most anyway)

We have the right and duty to look at that record and base our decisions on those votes plus any other matter we may find pertinent. Why not just build your candidate up and quite bashing people here who are cautious enough to actually look at their records. There is not a single candidate running I could not find fault with if I searched even a little. No one is ideologically perfect so why make such an accusation? Try a positive approach and see what it gets you. Every single candidate running for the Democratic nomination is worthy. Let people be their own judge as to what is important to them.

[LoneStarLiberal]

25. Wasn't Trying Bash a Candidate

I wasn't trying to bash a candidate...only some supporters, including some who support my candidate, Wes Clark, who was not in a position to cast a vote, yet who want to make such a central issue out of this vote.

I find it disturbing to base communications on counterfactual assumptions, which I believe are implied in this particular debate. If I say Kerry is a bad candidate for voting yes, then it is probably because my guy voted no. We have three candidates (I believe its three) who were not in a position to vote since they were not in Congress.

I'm not going to rip Kerry for voting yes because my guy wasn't in a position to vote. Therefore it's not an issue I feel that I can criticize a Kerry supporter or the Kerry campaign on since there's simply no basis for comparison. Is it an important issue? Yes. Is it an internally-consistent one? No.

I agree that all the candidates have faults and that we each have a right and duty to base your decisions on whatever is pertinent to you. I just don't see the point in specifically beating Kerry over the head about his vote when he is, for all practical purposes, trying to atone for it and do the right thing right now.

Edited for bad juju.

[ewagner]

5. My take on IRW voters

These guys need to be honest with us. All of them.

The only reason they voted with Shrub was for political survival. We saw what the repubs did to Max Cleland and they could have (and will again) do so to any of our people. I don't blame any of our guys for their vote because it was probably a matter of political survival. But they need to say so instead of making up improbable reasons

[jpgray]

8. I agree (nt)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. That's your mistaken assumption

Some said (and meant) that they wanted to stand up to Saddam and assure America's security by confirming whether or not WMD's existed- or if ANY security threat existed in Iraq.
No one can be blamed for bad diplomacy, bad war planning, and the possible concealment of true intentions, other than Bush.
No one.

[PurityOfEssence]

24. Oh, goody: let's just embrace simplistic thinking

Everything that happens in this world just happens because of one reason. That's it; Junior's right: the world is black or white. It's the clarifying explanation that makes it all snap into focus.

Junior claims that he "doesn't do nuance"; apparently, you're exactly the same.

[Jacobin]

14. It's the hypocrisy, stupid.

It goes without saying that I'm not calling you "stupid".

Its the little word play changed and borrowed from Carville.

[jpgray]

19. It isn't hypocrisy

Since his mistake helped send those boys over there, isn't he obligated to point out these injustices? It's his responsibility to do so.

[Jacobin]

28. Kerry: "I sent you over there and got you killed and now I'm upset

cause we can't see your coffins".

It doesn't wash with me. I have a personal grudge. I went through the Vietnam years. I protested and dodged the draft.

I spent two weekends emailing, faxing, calling and mailing Kerry and the rest of the congresscritters along with tens of thousands of others including many DUers begging him NOT to vote for IWR. We sent them editorials of Scowcroft (not exactly a dove) and others pointing out the utter futility and idiocy of the planned invasion. I got back pablums from Kerry's staff about "wmd" etc. DODGING all the real issues. He was freaked that a "no" vote would screw up his presidential chances.

Well, he fucked up big time. Voting FOR this insanity has now bitten him on the ass. And justly so.

He can take a long hike off a short diving board into an empty pool.
(And he's a fucking vietnam vet to boot and should have known better--well he DID no better. He did it for political gain)

[jpgray]

29. Better late than never, in my view (nt)

[sandnsea]

22. And also gets "Where's Kerry?"

Any time anything goes on that people think Kerry should be taking the lead on, and he hasn't issued a statement yet or they don't know that he has, there's an immediate outcry "Where's Kerry?" Then when he does make a statement or take the lead, he's immediately bashed. It's really a little schizophrenic.

The very way he's treated on this board shows he's already our leader. People are disappointed about his vote, which is fine, and consequently bash him every chance they get regardless of how right he may be on other issues.

People are also making assumptions about that vote, based on their respect for him; and coming to the conclusion that he couldn't possibly have really believed we needed to deal with Iraq, WMD and weapons proliferation in general. What if that conclusion is just flat out wrong? Can people give him the tiniest bit of benefit of the doubt, based on his thirty years of service to all of us?

Anybody who believes in their heart that Kerry would be the best President we've had in decades, but isn't in his camp because of this vote, needs to seriously think about it. Will we be kicking ourselves in a couple of years because we let the opportunity to really change the course of our country, and the world, slip by?

[Fleshdancer]

23. Kerry's vote for IWR was a huge deal to many Democrats

It's the reason why I won't be voting for Kerry in the primaries. I'm angry at all the Congress people who voted for the IWR...not neccessarily because I disagree with them on Iraq, but because it was their duty to declare war and instead of doing their job, they opted to give the responsibility to the one person who was never suppose to have the power. Checks and balances are in place for good reason.

I don't recall ever hearing Kerry say that his vote in favor of IWR was a mistake. If he did say it, I wish he would say it more often, because I need to hear it. If he didn't say it though, then for him to try to explain to me, an American voter, that what he thought he voted for was the ability of Bush to put pressure on Iraq, but not invade Iraq...well that's just insulting my intelligence at this point. It certainly isn't the type of leadership I'm looking for in a President. But that's just me.

At the end of the day though, yes, Kerry can and should critisize bush on any and every issue. When it comes to the war in Iraq though, Kerry doesn't make a strong case for himself. No candidate is perfect of course, but if the Kerry camp wants less critisism regarding this issue, they're going to have to work on it. We are seeing the consequences of the IWR everyday. Our soldiers are dying everyday. If Kerry is getting critisism from Democrats here on DU or anywhere else, then it's Kerry's problem to resolve, not ours. It goes with the territory of running for President.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. Kerry will never say his vote in favor of IWR was a mistake

because it wasn't.
It should be made clear that a show of force does not translate into a use of force. In fact, I believe Clark is also in agreement with that line of thinking.
It was a responsible vote. The act of actual war was Bush's.

[Padraig18]

31. It was an irresponsible abdication of his Constitutional duty.

You can 'nuance' it until the cows come home, but senators like Durbin and Byrd saw it for what it was, and voted accordingly.

[sandnsea]

39. Do we want to do this again?

Last time we ended up all the way out of the Constitution to UN rules. I guess it's not the Constitution at all. Why are you repeating it? You're mad because you think he betrayed you in the worst way.

Why can't you use your respect for him to give him the benefit of the doubt that he really is concerned about countries and terrorists all over the world having bio/chem and nuclear weapons. Why can't you see that he wanted to pressure the UN to start a real inspections program to stop these weapons from killing thousands of innocent people? If you really respect him, why not try to trust him?

[Terwilliger]

41. why is it incumbent on the voter to bestow trust?

shouldn't that be coming from the people who want us to vote for them?

[Fleshdancer]

40. ??

How exactly does a country show force without using it? We already had soldiers on the Kuwait border. Saddaam already knew we were the super power. We already had decade old sanctions and inspectors in the country so what was the purpose of IWR if not the use of force? Did Kerry think we were going to rent billboards along the Iraqi highways and display pictures of our MOAB?

Like I posted earlier, to say that the Iraqi WAR Resolution was meant to be a show of force and not a use of force is insulting.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

44. It got inspectors back in the country

among many other things. I'm sorry you can't see where some men would have done things differently- one of them being Wesley Clark:

"...Clark, however, seemed to be promising a relatively painless way to break Milosevic: threaten him with the use of force, tell him that nato will bomb him if he doesn’t coöperate, and he will come to the negotiating table and agree to a Kosovo peace. Because of Dayton, Clark was confident that he could read Milosevic. “I knew Milosevic,” Clark told me. “I’m the only commander in the twentieth century, I think, that really knew his adversary.” Berger asked Clark what would happen if the threats didn’t work, and, later, General Joe Ralston, the vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs, pressed him on the same question.

“I know Milosevic,” Clark said, over and over. “It will work.”

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?031117fa_fact

You don't even need an imagination to understand this simple, simple concept: show of force does not equal use of force.

[sandnsea]

46. There were no inspectors in the country

Hadn't been for 4 years. Kucinich said in November he wanted the inspectors to go in and in March he supported letting the inspections continue. He also said the sanctions were harming the Iraqi people. When did he ever offer a solution on how to get the inspectors in there in order to lift the sanctions? The 'yes' voters are taking the heat for getting the inspectors in, which is what the 'no' voters say was the solution. It's unreasonable and they need to be called on it.

[blm]

32. It gets worse. Now Kerry = Bush is the battle cry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=693053&mesg_id=693053 

[Forkboy]

37. Aren't we not supposed to carry on other threads

by starting another :shrug:

[curse10]

45. I wish I could

for some Kerry only does wrong. Never mind his 19 years in the Senate. His work after Vietnam. And his great plans for his presidency.