Question for gay DUers....

[chiburb]

Clark spelled out his position on gay rights, and detailed what programs he supports. To me it all seems like he has it right and together, but I don't know enough about specific programs like PPIA and ENDA. Have other Dem candidates been this specific about their policies? Are these programs "good"? They seem to be, but I defer to those that know more...

Here is his plan: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/po/20031113/co_po/wesleyclarkdetailsprogaystances

(Disclosure: Undecided, ABBEL, leaning Dean or Clark)

[La_Serpiente]

1. Well

ENDA is legislation that would ban discrimination in the workplace for gays and lesbians. However, I am kind of dissapointed with it. It doesn't prohibit discrimination for transexuals. I want the language in their that provides them help as well.

This is almost like when Federick Douglas and Susan B. Anthony clashed in their viewpoints. Mrs. Anthony wanted language put into the amendments at the time (It was either 13, 14, or 15th) that prohibited discrimination based on gender and sex.

If that happened, the amendments would have been killed. Many thought that Douglas was looking out for himself and himself only when he supported the amendment but not the equal rights for women as well. Plus, women were strong supporters of equal right and in fact WERE the ones that stood hand in hand with blacks at the time for equal rights. So it was pretty much a slap in the face.

But to my knowledge, I don't know any other candidate that has been this specific. Dean and/or Kerry has the best record on gay rights. However, Dean was the only one to get anything done. When the Vermont Supreme Court made that ruling, he could have proposed an amendment to the legislature prohibiting civil unions, but he didn't.

I am confident that Clark would do a good job for gays as well. I know a lot of gay people who are supporting Clark as well. Do I expect the next Democratic nominee to get rid of discrimination in the military??? YES.. there must always be a record of progress. However, I do not expect them to get civil unions. I realize that would probably be harder than the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or on par with it. We first need to educate the public and then go in for the attack. I do not think we are ready yet for it.

[David Zephyr]

12. Good Answer.

Of the subject a bit, but I have always found that the Douglas/Anthony dust-up is one of history's notable moments. I would have loved to have known these two incredible people.

[Terran]

2. I don't know much about those specific proposals either

But when a candidate states clearly that same-sex couples deserve the same rights as hetero couples, that's very telling. I'm not sure anyone else, except maybe Dean, has gone that far. I don't expect him to come out and say, "I support gay marriage." He's smart enough to know that certain language is explosive and detrimental. Framing it broadly in terms of rights is the correct thing to do. But the meaning is unambiguous.

As for individual rights, ENDA and the others, at face value, do appear to add vital civil rights protections that currently do not exist. I think Clark is farther ahead on this issue than anyone else, because he is so open and clear about his position. It opens him up to endless attacks from the Right, but somehow I doubt he will back down from it.

Dean people, don't bother flaming me if I've short-changed your guy on this issue. All I know is the Vermont Civil Unions law, which of course I have the highest degree of admiration for. It was what attracted me to him back in '01 when no one else here was even talking about candidates in any serious way, and Dean's name was not ever discussed.

Dirk

[dsc]

3. Dean also did all of the following

Signed and helped pass a 1992 law prohibiting discrimination against gays and lesbians in housing, employment, and schooling. He appointed the first openly gay Vermont House member, he granted benefits to state employee's domestic partners (before civil unions), and permitted joint adoptions. He has come out strongly in favor of ENDA (I don't think any of our candidates aren't in favor of that) as well as anti hate crimes laws.

On edit PPIA is a law which would permit a gay couple on of whom is a US citizen and the other is not to have the non US citizen come live in the US as a permanent resident alien. Later that person would become a citizen. Currently only married straight couples can do that. Foreign Correspondent and Sappho are victims of this inequity. (note to mods please don't remove due to calling out as this is a well known and discussed fact about those posters) This is a right that is a matter of great importance to the relatively few people it effects. It also is a great injustice in an abstract way. I also think that Kerry, Dean, Lieberman, Gephardt, Sharpton, CMB, and Kucinich are in favor of this given their stands on gay marriage/ civil unions. I don't know what Edwards believes.

[chiburb]

4. Thanks to all...

That is the kind of response I was looking for, with a history lesson tossed to boot! :-)

As was pointed out above, this certainly opens Clark up to attack from the fundies. Somehow I don't think he cares, and that is one of the things makes him attractive (and very Dean-like).

Once again, no ax here...

[Bertha Venation]

5. Clark and Dean are about equal

The Permanent Partners Immigration Act (PPIA) is another "separate but equal" bill. When we have the right to marry, the right to sponsor our spouses for citizenship will be a given, just like it is now for heterosexual couples.

The Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) is unfortunately necessary until our (we gay Americans) civil rights are taken for granted. From HRC: "Employment discrimination based on sexual orientation, whether such orientation is real or perceived, effectively denies qualified individuals equality and opportunity in the workplace. Those who experience this form of discrimination have no recourse under current federal law or under the Constitution as it has been interpreted by the courts." This is what ENDA is meant to fight.

If you wish to know where most candidates stand on GLBT issues, see this page http://www.hrc.org/campaigns/2004/candidates/quest_summary.asp, which contains a summary of how the candidates responded to HRC's questionnaire ("All candidates running for President were asked to answer each of the following questions, and elaborate as much as they would like"). This page http://www.hrc.org/campaigns/2004/candidates/questionnaire.asp contains more detailed responses.

What makes me furious is that no one but Moseley-Braun, Kucinich, and Sharpton is willing to go all the way to marriage. Anything short of civil marriage is separate-not-equal. Only those three worthy candidates, who unfortunately haven't a chance at the nomination, are willing to stick their necks out for the only thing that is completely right. It makes me ill.

That said, I know in the current climate that a candidate who supports civil marriage will be mowed down by the reich. I haven't decided who will get my primary vote, but it'll be Dean or Clark.

[veganwitch]

7. re: civil unions

exactly.

dean's "states rights" stance on gay unions has doomed gays and lesbians living in the 37 states that already have DOMAs to second class citizenship during his presidency. not that thats not the issue now, but it wont get better.

[PissedOffPollyana]

9. and it could get much worse...

I'm pretty sure that only one more state needs to enact DOMA legislation to open the door for a Constitutional amendment, which would chuck progress right out the window. Dean's approach nationally is cowardice at best, not to mention enabling to the zealots in the right wing who have been stocking up state legislatures for years.

Color me extreme, but in my opinion any candidate not prepared to fully support full equality for all Americans (not just monogamous hets) has no business anywhere near the Democratic ticket. We're better than limp pass-offs to state's rights and so should our candidate. I predict a surge in GLBT support jumping the Dean ship & going straight to Kucinich when the full picture presents itself; I know our local community has been very active in clarifying what Dean's national position adds up to for the future of gay marriage and adoption and it's not pretty.

[veganwitch]

10. yep you need 38 states

to get a constitutional amendment.

also, from what i know of the case the Vermont supreme court said that not acknowledging same sex partnerships was unconstitutional so dean would have to make it marriage or civil unions. he chose civil unions that have only 300 "rights" (marriage has over 1000) and are good only in that one state (marriage rights are potable).

i have a link for a comparison at my home computer.

[PissedOffPollyana]

11. Yep.

... and from what I have heard & seen, he signed the legislation behind closed doors without any official fanfare.

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't really see Dean as a viable candidate on these issues. He only signed off on a pale subsititute when he had little other choice and did the whole thing very quietly. This doesn't strike me as the actions of a man who will champion a platform of real equality; aren't we a little too advanced to even think about backing a candidate whose actions scream 'separate and not really equal'? There's enough of that on the GOP side for all of us, thanks!

[dsc]

19. more flat out falsehoods

First, the constitution of Vermont could have been amended (I posted that over a half dozen times). Under the federal DOMA law no marriage rights were potable from state to state unless the recieving state agreed and none were potable federally. BTW you own link made those points. Finally, as pointed out above, Dean favors making states recognize gay relationshops.

[dsc]

18. that is flat our false

as you well know as we discussed this before. He said, in clear, unambigous language, that states would be required to recognize gay relationships but the states are able to choose what they wish to call it. Source Larry King Live. Oh and BTW you are even wrong if you discount the Larry King Live thing. California has a DOMA and has just recognized civil unions (they called them domestic partnership) This has also been discussed quite a bit lately.

[Deja Q]

17. I've heard other things about Dean

http://soli.inav.net/~njohnson/kucinich/dkorhd.html


Sexual Orientation:

Kucinich: gay-lesbian "complete equality"

Dean: gay-lesbian itemized rights; state, not federal issue


Kucinich has done one better than Dean. And he has said the same thing about marriage and full equality.

It is a federal issue. Not a state issue. One could marry in a 'legalized' state then go to Nebraska for god-knows-why and in that shithole of a state get treated like vermin. Screw that and people who want to support that because that is DUMB.

Sorry to be so uppity. My loathing should remain focused on the repukes and the destruction they're causing around the whole world, yet alone the decimation of America...

[dsc]

21. When it mattered

Kucinich supported DOMA. When he campaigned for Congress in 1996 he found no need for repealing DOMA. I am glad he changed his mind but to me the person who stood up for us when it wasn't popular to do so (Dean) deserves more credit than the one who didn't (Kucinich)

[veganwitch]

6. im bi but i dont appreciate...

how his "policies" are linked with the military. like if dont ask, dont tell is abolished and openly queer people are allowed in the military that all other queer issues will magickly right themselves.

the article says "HRC said on its Web site that its questionnaire represents the first time Clark talked about a range of GLBT issues other than the military."

dont get me wrong. i think clark would be a decent president but i would like to see him switch out of military mode.

[terrya]

8. Good on almost everything.

But Clark said that he would only review "Don't Ask Don't Tell". I think he's the only Dem candidate who would not repeal DADT outright.

Otherwise, Clark is good with gay issues.

[Plaid Adder]

13. I went to the HRC site to see what they had up.

Here's my breakdown:

Civil unions but no civil marriage: Not ideal, but about all you can expect from a mainstream candidate.

Support for ENDA: Very important. ENDA would make a real and immediate difference for GBLT people living in repressive communities and regions where employment discrimination is common and there currently is no legal recourse.

A lot of straight people don't understand that as things stand, it is *totally and utterly legal to fire someone for being gay* unless your city or state has passed an antidiscrimination statute that includes sexual orientation. That's what "employment at will" means, folks: unless you have a union or a contract, you can be dumped at any time over almost anything. Race, thanks to federal civil rights legislation, is one important exception; but the fact that it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race DOES NOT MEAN that it is illegal to discriminate period.

I would say, in fact, that for most gay people ENDA is actually more important than same-sex marriage. So support for ENDA is good. Whether that will amount to a hill of beans after the election is another matter.

Gays in the military: Distressingly vague.

Notice he is talking about "formulating a new policy" but doesn't say what it will be. "Formulate a new policy" does not mean "lift the ban." It is possible he is contemplating replacing Don't Ask, Don't Tell with another weak compromise which will end up making things worse.

PPIA also very important, I know a couple going through immigration issues right now and it's heartbreaking to watch this, and infuriating to realize that if they could marry it would all be resolved. However, in the long run gay marriage or federally recognized civil unions is probably a better way to solve that problem.

Summary: He's about where Clinton was. Which is to say, he's way better than a Republican, but not as good as he could be.

Personal summary: It's not enough to get me excited. I am way more worried about his being a general than about his position on ENDA, and confident that I can find another candidate who's not a general who will take pretty much the same positions.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[Skittles]

14. I'M JUST MAKING SURE

THE GAY DUERS ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ME

[eridani]

15. http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_gayrights.htm

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_gayrights.htm

Kucinich goes further than supporting civil unions for same-sex couples at the state level; he believes that, much like the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s, federal law should protect civil unions, and that no state has a right to abridge basic rights to privacy. He would support the introduction of federal civil union legislation if the courts do not recognize this intrinsic right.

He supports equal treatment of same-sex couples under Social Security survivor benefits and spousal benefits. He supports equal adoption rights regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. Ultimately, he believes gays should be allowed to marry, as a matter of "equality and justice and fairness," as he told the Boston Globe (4/26/03).

He supports domestic partner benefits to same-sex partners of employees, such as health insurance coverage and hospital visitation rights. He supports comprehensive sex education and prevention efforts aimed at stemming the spread of sexually transmitted diseases such as HIV/AIDS.

As President, Dennis Kucinich would end the ban on openly gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals serving in the U.S. armed forces.

[benburch]

20. What have you done with Skittles?

Why, Nothing! Do you think I should?

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. PPIA is the one...

...Sapphocrat and I wish would be made into law, so we can be back together.

In short, it is the permanent partners immigration act, introduced in both the House and the Senate, and is designed to give gay and lesbian citizens of the United States, the equal right to sponsor foreign chosen life partners for immigration.