Judge Roy Moore has done this country a big favor

[keopeli]

He, like a few others, has decided to talk about the elephant in the living room. He is absolutely right when he suggests that he was only acknowledging God as is done in oaths of office and in some of our documents and traditions. That is the truth. And, when we see the elephant in the living room, most people, even bright people, want him to be silenced. Because this is the very issue that most divides our country today. The Southern states display the most obvious example of this divide. We have a large minority of people who want Religion to be the M.O. of our country.

This is comparable to the large minority who wanted to maintain slavery, those who wanted to maintain segregation, those who wanted to maintain voting as exclusive for men, etc. These issues polarized our population, and the Religion issue is now on the front burner.

If there is one characteristic that soundly divides the two sides of America's current political landscape, it is the role of Religion in our government. And, I believe that when the issue is finally brought to the forefront, we are likely to have secession and, very possibly, civil war once again.

I have family that live in Alabama. They are good people. They are kind and compassionate in the world they live in. And, they will fight to the death to defend Moore and his views. Most surprising of all is that they are correct in some of their assertions; not about the way things SHOULD be, but about the way things ARE. We DO have a history of incorporating Christianity in our government, even though it is subtle. Are Congress says prayers and always has. Our oaths include acknowledgements of God. Our forefathers were religious, some fervently so. And, in a society that is more secular and anti-Christian than it has ever been, any effort to remove any of these tokens will be viewed as heretical to the large minority of fundamentalist Christians.

Nontheless, it is best that we deal with the elephant in the living room than that we continue to ignore it. Any less will only make matters worse.

God help us all, and save us from ourselves.
--

Sorry if this is depressing, but the news today is disturbing. If you haven't read Gore Vidal's comments, I suggest you do so now.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/52/features-cooper.php

[FreeperSlayer]

1. Depressing?!?

Hardly! Moore wasn't above the law, nor will anyone else who tries these kind of stunts (which is all it was).
Personally, I'm celebrating

[kentuck]

3. Exactly ! He thought he was above the law...

He forgot the scripture, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's..." He wanted to give it all to God when his very religion teaches differently.

[Stupdworld]

2. be careful

you might get labelled a fundie nazi for saying those words.
remember, the south is nothing but fundie right wing racist bigot homophobe moran freepers. nothing good ever comes out of the south, particularly alabama.

Keep that in mind you evil Southerner.


/sarcasm

[trotsky]

4. A Quote

"...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Yes, as you may have guessed, that's from the CONSTITUTION.

Just because we may have had acknowledgments to gods in the past does not make it acceptable now.

The vast majority of our Founders were Deists, meaning they only loosely believed in the concept of "god" insofar as some universal force set everything in motion, and then stepped back to watch it work.

I'm sorry, but I don't like this "We've always done it so you atheists just shut up" attitude.

[Ress1]

5. Could be a poblem for the Dems.

The far right will blame the Dems for our closeness to the "Godless" ACLU. Moore's going to be a hero and will prosper (Gov?) in their continued fight to divide the country.

[JHB]

8. They've blames Dems for closeness to the ACLU for decades.

It's not going to be any more of a problem now than it has been.

[buff2]

6. I don't have a problem with religion......

The problem I have is the way the ratwingers use it for political gain. They use it when they are "for" or "against" something.....whichever serves their needs at the moment. It wouldn't be so bad if they practiced what they preached. They are nothing but phony hypocrites,because REAL God loving Christian people wouldn't treat others like they do,just because they don't agree on the issues. It's THEIR way or the highway. All this greed and power grab they've accomplished has hurt this country like no terrorist ever could. Just like those "freepers".....they consider us the enemy. They spend more time trying to bring down a democrat rather then trying to help do something about real enemies who are out to attack us.Why don't they join the service if they're so damn patriotic, and fight in a war zone instead of sitting on their asses "freeping" polls on the internet? The garbage I have read on that website is enough to make you want to hibernate. I mean who wants to bump elbows with people like that who have such insane ideals and thoughts? :scared:

[bluestateguy]

7. Moore is running for governor

He was planning this all along, so as to make him a martyr. Fortunately, he will have to get past a Republican primary against Governor Bob Riley, who is certainly damaged by the whole tax issue, but a Republican primary could prove divisive even if Moore wins. A Democrat could actually win back the Alabama governorship if Moore and Riley tear each other apart in a Republican primary where both candidates will be trying to "out-Jesus" each other.

[keopeli]

9. Thanks for reading! Some responses.

I agree that the decision against Moore is cause for celebration, but it's a bad omen of a possible future that is further divided.

Stupdworld - you must be from the south, eh? Love your sarcasm!

Trotsky, you're right, and thank god they wrote that part! (pun)

Bluestateguy, I wish I had your optimism, but I'm glad for it all the same!


Buff2, your 'righteous indignation' is spot on, I believe. But bare in mind that the reaction to their hypocrasy might drive them to more extreme reactions themselves, and that's a deadly cycle. I'm agreeing with you, but I'm also scared by the power that these hypocrits wield. I wish it wasn't so, and I hope for the best...but I think we should think about all possibilities. The wrong might prevail (i.e. early 20th Century Germany), and we mustn't allow that to happen. That means we have to be smarter than they, not only in our thoughts, but in our action. "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."

[AlabamaYankee]

10. Public Piety is very strong here

Moving from the Norhteast, I was taken aback when public meetings sponsored by government agencies would start with a prayer. This is very much a cultural thing here, so I try nmto to say anything. What is truly ironic is that the Alabama Constitution, one of the worst in the country, actually has a very strong anti-establishment clause in it. Moore could have been expelled for being in violation of the state clause, rather than the Federal.

It's pretty certain that Moore is angling for higher office - God, perhaps. What isn't clear is whether he will run against Shelby for Senator, or Riley for Governor. Regardless, it's my hope that common sense will prevail, and the majority of Alabamians will see his opportunism for what it is.

[keopeli]

11. Thanks, AlabamaYankee!

I'm thrilled you are living there! It is a cultural difference. Ironically, it was the head of the Baptist Church (perhaps the strongest church in Alabama) that, during the writing of the Constitution, insisted that God and Religion be left OUT of the government. Research on this issue may help with your discussions in Alabama. Unfortunately, the family I have there won't listen to me. :)

[Grins]

12. Holy CRAP!!

Amazing. ”.. it is the role of Religion in our government. And, I believe … when … finally brought to the forefront, we are likely to have secession and, very possibly, civil war…” Damn!

I’ve been reading a lot in that past few days on the right-wing religious going back to the early 1980’s. I think you are dead on the money. History says that America’s greatest burden has been its failure to come to grips with the race question. From 1776 to the present race, has been the burden. After my recent reading, I no longer believe that is true. Our burden is religion.

I woke up last night and was thinking exactly what you said. I thought it could lead to civil war. There are several articles out there, and below are some comments from one of them. I think that most people thing the religious right are a bunch of praying hicks, but they are not. They have been organized for years – and I think they are winning!

Snips:

"We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about simply spreading the gospel in a political context." Republican Strategist Paul Weyrich, 1980!!!

”So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty (As a pretense) to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order (that) finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God. Gary North founder of the Institute for Christian Economics.

”… President Bush is giving the Religious Right what they want the most: the courts. He is packing the U.S. federal courts with judges that are hostile to the principle of separation of church and state and would support efforts to bring the U.S. government under religious control. See Judiciary. As the court system leans more toward the agenda of the Religious Right, it is possible that this movement could end up taking control of all three branches of the U. S. government.

” "Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government.

"Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Ruler of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God. "The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therefore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments." Click Here.

"There will be Satanic forces... We are not... up just against human beings, to beat them in elections. We're going to be coming up against spiritual warfare." Pat Robertson, Road to Victory, 1991
”

"The term dominion means control over, in this case control over all the democratic institutions in this country. The Republican Party has been the key vehicle in the drive for control. Now that the Religious Right dominates both houses of Congress and the presidency, they are highly focused on the one remaining branch of government: the courts.

"Judges are the basis of the land's righteousness," said David Barton, a "Christian nation" activist and vice chair of the Texas state GOP. Barton is dedicated to ending the separation of church and state and was speaking about the 2002 elections. "We have a Senate election here in Texas. The only issue that should matter is judges."

Sound familiar?

From another seasoned Republican to whom Goldwater spoke those words, Bill Rentschler, "Prepare yourself, fellow Americans, for historic change, the most dramatic and far-reaching change in your lifetime, a sweeping metamorphosis that may alter radically the distinctive, time-honored structure of the fabled American experiment, which has endured for most of the last 225 years."

” The best way to understand the Religious Right is to look at the kinds of legislation their lawmakers sponsor. In the U.S. Congress and in state legislatures, bills are proposed that are anti-women, anti-labor, and anti-civil rights. Their legislation opposes finance campaign reform; environmental protection; gun control; social justice for the poor; public education; teaching evolution;; human sexuality; and a separation of church and state. Their bills show a disregard for the U.S. Constitution, and finally, Democracy itself.
“Their legislation favors the wealthy, and large corporations. The ultimate political goal is to make this country a Christian nation. Republicans have a stronger majority in the U.S. House of Representatives, so bills approved by the House reflect the Religious Right's agenda more than in the Senate. Because the Senate is more narrowly divided, Senate Democrats, along with moderate Republicans, have been able to block or stall passage of some Religious Right sponsored legislation.

There’s more, but you can read more yourself.
<http://4religious-right.info/index.htm>
Be sure to check out the part about the religion right wingers ownership of electronic voting machines!

Time to get a gun.

[snippy]

13. Read this religious right fantasy.

WASHINGTON-January 6, 2004. A paramilitary organization calling itself the Christian Liberation Front changed the balance of power in Washington by a pair of brutal attacks this afternoon. A force estimated at about 200 CLF commandos stormed the Supreme Court building, killing 35 people, including five Supreme Court Justices. At the same time, a contingent of 1,000 CLF paramilitaries attacked the Hart Senate Office Building, where a Senate Democratic Caucus meeting was being held. Approximately 50 people were killed in the attack. Once the commandos had seized the building, they systematically killed Democratic senators from states with Republican governors. Here is a list of the 21 senators killed

Daniel Akaka Byron Dorgan Mary Landrieu
John Breaux Bob Graham Blanche Lincoln
Hillary Clinton Ernest Hollings Barbara Mikulski
Kent Conrad Daniel Inouyye David Pryor
Tom Daschle Tim Johnson Harry Reid
Mark Dayton Ted Kennedy Paul Sarbanes
Chris Dodd John Kerry Chuch Schumer

Joe Lieberman was campaigning in South Carolina, and missed the assassins. The attackers turned themselves in to police, and are proudly confessing their crimes, cooperating with authorities.

If the governors appoint Republican replacements, there will be 72 Republicans in the US Senate until replacement elections can be held. Even if a few Democrats are named, there will be likely at least 60 votes to vote for cloture and appoint replacements for the slain Supreme Court justices, changing the balance of power on the court.

http://markbyron.typepad.com/main/2003/11/the_usefulness__1.html