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Countdown to Civil War, What I Believe Will Happen in Iraq Next Year

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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 08:48 PM
Original message
Countdown to Civil War, What I Believe Will Happen in Iraq Next Year
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 08:55 PM by sgr2
George W Bush has recently learned from a CIA report, commissioned by CIA Director George Tenet, that Iraq is quickly spinning out of control. The report concludes that the resistance is growing rapidly, and there are already tens of thousands of active resistance members. Some reports say the number is actually about 50,000.

This is earth shaking news for this long-failed administration. It seems in their world bad news only begets more bad news. Think about what this administration has gone through in the last six months.

It's really akin to having a stake driven through their hearts. The international community has only pledged somewhere in the range of 30 billion dollars towards the rebuilding effort. The hallucination of a strong 'Coalition of the Willing' has now been shown to be, except in the case of the Brits, nothing more than a few thousand troops at best. Following the massacre yesterday at an Italian led police station in Iraq, even countries who had pledged troops are now pulling back.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20031114/D7UQ2J180.html

Bush's Administration has now let it be known they are interested in handing over control to the Iraqis ASAP. I understand they are trying to give autonomy to the Iraqis, hoping they can stabilize themselves without us. But it's not well thought out, just like most of their plans.

The Pentagon has suggested the need for quick strike forces on the ground in Iraq. The idea is that these forces can quickly respond to terrorist challenges in Iraq. The Iraqi police commissioned by their city will simply call in for help when it is needed. On the surface it is a great idea, and the White House seems to be jumping at the idea. I think they're looking to pull back our troops, take out as much regular military as they can, and put the remaining forces in desert based 'super-camps' capable of quick movement throughout their assigned zones. They will probably have completed this next phase by the middle of next summer.

The problem is two-fold.

First, a lack of regular US patrols through the major cities won't encourage the Iraqis to create a real national government with a broad coalition of ethnic majorities within the country. I believe the Iraqis will see this as an opportunity to fill a power vacuum. Basically we have the Kurds in the north, the Shi'ites in the South. And very war hardened Sunnies in the middle. The Kurds are mostly interested in breaking off from Iraq and creating their own state. The Sunnis want to return to power. The Shi'tes, fueled by fundamentalism and an influx of Iranian influenced religious fervor, are seen as the most likely to lead a post US Iraq. Add in all of the leftover Jihadists who are flooding into Iraq from about a handful of neighboring countries and you have an excellent chance of a bloody civil war.

Second, their strategy relies heavilly on Iraqi police recruits who have been quickly trained. We do not even know most of their true loyalties. Do we really expect these people to be able to hold together a country, when we do not really even know what they were doing before we invaded. Certainly there is some capabilty to check backgrounds, but we are paying the Iraqis to do that. It is not like we have a CIA database on every citizen of Iraq. So the second these chaps figure out that they are on their own and responsible for holding the country together, look for a rapid breakdown.

So here's my prediction, by August of next year Iraq, especially in the Baghdad area, will be involved in a civil war. With the Bush Administration portraying it as a fight the Iraqis are taking care of, with no need for major assistance. They will do their best to paint the operation as a success in the hope that they can somehow get re-elected.

Will America fall for it?
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. America may fall for it, but as I heard on Radio Australia this AM,
Iraqis probably won't. An ex-pat Iraqi living in Melbourne was interviewed...said the Iraqis know the council is composed of US picked CROOKS (his word), so they know the score on that. A follow-up report by an on the ground reporter said that Iraqis are very articulate in their views about how the Americans are occupiers and how the use of force is alienating them.

And then there is the editor of the Turkish Daily News said a few days ago that using Iraqis for security will result in WARLORDISM, because such a force will soon give rise to the many factions turning on each other.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Warlords
And then there is the editor of the Turkish Daily News said a few days ago that using Iraqis for security will result in WARLORDISM, because such a force will soon give rise to the many factions turning on each other.

I believe there will be territorial warlords who attempt to organize private armies. But, I think every time one of them gets any power, we will move in and kill them. This will only create more disorganization and havoc on the ground. It's kind of like the ultimate paradox.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Sounds like Afghanistan N/T
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Good point, it does sound like Afghanistan
I hadn't thought about that. Perpetual chaos.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. America will not be paying attention
that's my prediction. CNN and Fox will find some celebrity scandal or two to keep the public interested in anything but their best interests.

You know, I want you to be wrong, but I have to say that I've had a feeling of doom about this situation from the beginning.

Doom as in the people who are in power are so delusional they cannot succeed in this mess. America is stretched thin with long hours on jobs, parental responsibilities, all those auto and home repairs that take up a weekend...

Americans expect we will at least have competent leadership, and cannot imagine, I think, the lack of responsible leadership at the executive level.

The amount of damage the Bush administration has done is staggering to contemplate-- with our allies, in Iraq, not to mention internal issues.

It's incredible that they thought they could install Chalabi and that the Iraqis would go along with this.

Could they really be so stupid?

So, yeah, I'm afraid that civil war is one of a couple of possible scenarios, and the most likely.

The privitization issue will also backfire on Bush, but of course it's our troops who will bear the brunt of Bush and Cheney's greed and selfishness.

I think the ultimate outcome will be a Shia Islamic state, and an eventual close alliance with Iran.

This would create a power alliance in the region which does the U.S. or Israel no good...which was the intent of an invasion in the first place.

This whole Iraq mess has done more to make America more at risk than anything Al Qaeda has done over this last year.

And America will be blamed for this Iraq mess as it plays out. Of course, most Americans will also ignore this part of the "liberation" scenario, too.

I don't know of anything Bush can do to fix the mess he's made, so, yeah, I think he's now just hoping to get out asap to make his re-election chances better.

In other words, just as with the mid-term elections, Karl Rove is running foreign policy issues as much as Cheney or Wolfowitz.

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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. I disagree, America will be paying attention
The depression of people over the state of what is going on is relevant. I have yet to run into any Republican who actually argues the issues, they just fall back on "he will win no matter what."
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is getting more and more like Beirut
I shudder for the future. Tribal conflict is bloody. More people could be killed than Saddam ever gassed/murdered/tortured if things go completely AWOL. If civil war comes, it will be much more complicated than Shi'ite/Sunni/Kurd.

The 'base in the desert' strategy would mean that The Iraqis could set up ambushes and call in the Americans to play whenever they want, and whenever we respond of course. That seems to be essentially what has happened in Falluja, which was long since abandoned....................
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. We pulled out of Falluja?
You seem to know a lot about troop movements? What's going on in Iraq?
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Philosophy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. The clue will be when Fox News stops mentioning the word "liberation"
The White house will send out a memo that tells them to stop using that word, and to do a complete about face and claim the war was never really about that, but instead that it was only about removing the "threat" of Saddam Hussein all along, and that has already been accomplished, so we can withdraw our troops and it is then up to the Iraqis to fix their own country now that we have given them "freedom" and "democracy".
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Will Chalabi be in charge of the major contractors, such as Halliburton?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good observations.
If anyone, the repukes should understand how fragile a democracy is - and how hard it is to put one in a place where everyone doesn't want it.

They were able to tear down the strongest democracy in the world without firing a shot . . unless you count Oklahoma City.

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BigLed Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. a question
You said, "The Kurds are mostly interested in breaking off from Iraq and creating their own state."

Are there natural resources there, oil or otherwise, to economically support such a separtist nation?
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, there are.... link to a story
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 11:03 PM by sgr2
Iraq: Oil City Of Kirkuk Falls To Coalition, Kurds
Kirkuk, 10 April 2003 (RFE/RL) -- Coalition-backed Kurdish fighters today captured the northern Iraqi oil city of Kirkuk.


The Kurdish parts of Northern Iraq are oil rich. This was from May.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/15/1052885345587.html

Kurds making their own Iraq oil deals

A Kurdish political party working with the United States to shape an interim government in Iraq has quietly pushed ahead on three oil development projects, acting autonomously as a local government.

The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of the two main Kurdish parties in Iraq, has signed production-sharing contracts with two Turkish companies, PetOil and General Energy, to develop and survey oilfields in north-east Iraq, according to Rasheed Khoshnaw, deputy director of the party's special projects division.


From September:

http://www.hindu.com/2003/09/29/stories/2003092901331500.htm

Oil, both boon and bane for Iraqi Kurds
KIRKUK (IRAQ) Sept. 28. It is said that when the army of Alexander the Great marched through Kirkuk, the inhabitants set afire an entire street by flaming the natural oil seepages from the ground in order to impress him.

So rich has been the area in oil and gas that for thousands of years, gas had kept gushing out of two dozen holes at a site not far from the main city. On Saturday the orange flame of burning gas venting out of the barren landscape is visible to the visitor travelling along the road from Kirkuk to the Kurdish city of Erbil.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. But .. Centcom is going back to the area ..
If you watch the cnn video (reuters may have one too) .. it looks like we're getting ready to take on the entire region .. the maps show "terrorists" activity in Afghanastan, Iraq, and SA ...

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq_centcom_031113.html

Nov. 13— The general running the war in Iraq, Gen. John Abizaid, will move his headquarters back to the region beginning next week, because of the rise in attacks on U.S., allied and Iraqi targets, military officials told ABCNEWS.

By moving his headquarters back to Doha, Qatar, Abizaid will be able to move in and out of the war zone, making it easier for him to keep track of the situation, the sources said. He will also be in the same time zone, allowing him and his staff to act more quickly on intelligence, the sources added.

Since taking command of U.S. Central Command, which covers the Middle East, in July, Abizaid has run the Iraq war from CENTCOM's permanent base in Tampa, Fla.

Abizaid has made frequent trips to the region — a grueling 7,000-mile commute across the Atlantic Ocean. The arrangement will allow U.S. officials more planning and operation capabilities.

Although Abizaid's predecessor, Gen. Tommy Franks, left Qatar on May 1, the day after Bush declared that major combat in Iraq was over, Doha never officially closed as a headquarters. It is considered a "split headquarters," along with Tampa.

The move to Qatar will involve about 400 people on the CENCTOM staff, and they are expected to be there at least two months.

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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Which ties into what I'm saying
They are going to rely on a strategy of hands-off, quick reaction forces......
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-03 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. Not like Afghanistan, not like Beirut
The model matches former Yugoslavia perfectly though.

An artificially created country, covering several ethnic and religious groups that can't stand the sight of each other but are living dispersed or in enclaves throughout the country.

Old grudges between ethnic groups.

Held together for a long time through fear infested by a cruel dictator.

To make things worse, the three main groups each have qualities that will contribute to a good old fahion slaughter brawl.

We have fanatic muslims in the south, nazis in the heartland, and terrorists up north (yes, our allies the Kurds have their very own PKK, who have been gangstering Western Europe for quite some town now, blowing up the occasional building to get their point across).
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