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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:21 AM
Original message
Poll question: Showdown straw poll-Dean or Clark?
The final two based on numerous polls here @ DU. Choose, I'll include undecided.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Neither.
Write in.

(Either in the general election; but it doesn't really matter which, since it won't be me who put either of them there.)
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Ditto
Write-in.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. What are you writing in?
Bush?

If it's those two, or any other two, why write in the name of someone who has already resigned from the race? I know the hypothetical is stupid but what's your motive? :shrug:
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
49. leaning towards the same...
eom
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm for Kucinich but voted for my personal second choice Howard Dean
Gave up a shot at universal health care for Dr. Dean.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Again?
Why do we have to do this every couple days. These polls are fine every couple weeks. Now I will stop my whining and vote. :)
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. We need a break from the militarists and neo-conservative traitors
or it's gonna be the Fourth Reich here.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. When in the military General Clark had high security clearances
and may have socialized with the military think tank types employed in a neo-conservative dominated industry. The fact is General Clark is involved in Private Military Company/PMC transactions and investment and that means moles to me-spooks and moles in realpolitik is realpolitik.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Support For Military Is Not Support For Aggression
It just sounds like you are against the American military. I abhor war, but I support our military 1000%. Unfortunately, Kucinich is not experienced nor realistic about American security by way of utilizing our military. As much as I wish we could just pull out of Iraq, we simply can't without losing what little respect we have left in the international community. And that's important. If we pull out now not only will Iraq be at least as bad off as it was before we invaded, but Iraq will pose a greater danger than it previously did. All of Bush's bogus arguements for invading Iraq will become true, and then you create a situation here in America where Democrats will never get elected to national office at a time when national security becomes increasingly important. It will make Bush look like he was right all along, Democrats will never again be trusted with American security, and that will make the Republican takeover a cinch.

Unfortunately, Iraq has to be dealt with, preferably with more help from the international community. There will be no clear victory in Iraq. We will pay for this blunder for a long time to come. And for that reason alone Bush should lose this election by a landslide and be voted out of office in disgrace. But I'm afraid we'll just have to be satisfied with a close victory, and if we want that then you should support Ret. Gen. Wesley Clark because he's the one who the Republicans will have a hard time destroying with their 200+ million dollars and, thus, America's best hope. If you think about it realistically, you'll reach the same conclusion.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. And Clark has demonstrated as well as stated that Republicans are
all about the weapons, Democrats are about people.

This is from a 1998 report by Clark to congress. Sounds like a progressive to me.

" RESOURCE PRIORITIES - AN INVESTMENT IN THE FUTURE

Quality of Life

"The judgement, creativity, and fortitude of our people will remain the key to success in future joint operations."

Joint Vision 2010

Our most precious resource is the service member and his or her family. Quality of life (QOL) is one of my very top theater priorities, as it is inextricably linked to readiness, retention, the reinforcement of service core values, healthy family life, high morale and mission accomplishment.

The quality of our housing, medical care, schools, religious services, public facilities, services and recreation activities define the American standard of living. The expectation of the DoD family, serving across the vast USEUCOM Theater, is no different.

Our goal is to ensure all USEUCOM forces enjoy the optimum achievable standard of living; comparable to that of the society they are pledged to defend and that of their DoD counterparts stateside.

Our most important 1998 QOL strategy objective was to analyze and quantify the impact QOL has on readiness. We took "expert testimony" from installation commanders and senior enlisted advisors from across the theater. Their conclusions were identical: quality of life is critical to personnel readiness and retention. They are not satisfied with the quality of the programs in this AOR. With the exception of Equal Opportunity and the Chaplaincy programs, none of the other 23 total program areas evaluated compares favorably with its CONUS counterpart. Family housing and barracks, pay and retirement, health care and dependent education were consistently identified as lagging the farthest behind. We must do better in compensating service members and families whose well-being is constantly taxed through repetitive deployments and the stress of family separations. USAREUR soldiers, for example, are often deployed two to three times during a normal overseas tour. Nonetheless, USAREUR continues to enjoy record retention rates. Our analysis tells us that these rates correlate directly to our mission focus while emphasizing soldier and family programs.

Overseas troops, civilian employees and families often rely solely on DoD-provided programs for support because they do not have the same off-base alternatives as their CONUS counterparts. Dependent education is a prime example. Today over half of USEUCOM service members have families with children in school. The DoD education system is the 27th largest US public school system, with 160 schools serving 78,000 students. USEUCOM provides logistical support for 118 of these schools and 50,000 students. Funding new programs such as all-day kindergarten and improved student-to-teacher ratios are extremely important to USEUCOM QOL. Your support for this funding is crucial.

Individuals responding to a recent theater-wide survey targeting dependent-education issues identified dependent education as the most important of eight QOL support-program areas. Our children deserve a world-class school system with curriculum and programs to match the best. This is the standard our military personnel and their families expect and deserve.

Athletics, music, art and associated after school activities are as critical as the core academic subjects of math, science, history and English.

Many schools do not offer vocational programs. They have been forced to choose between college preparatory or vocational offerings, because their budget cannot support both. We must take aggressive action to expand vocational, technical and school-to-work programs.

Additionally, I believe in the importance of linking Department of Defense Education Activity (DoDEA) programs to the National Education Goals and Presidential Initiatives. We must work toward establishing an 18:1 student-teacher ratio for grades 4-12. We also need to push for program-based staffing. More counselors, technical support and special-needs teachers to match curriculum requirements not school size. I would also like to see theater-level School Boards that would participate in all DoDEA related activities.

The health and well being of our active duty and family members is increasingly important as we face an increased military operations tempo with decreases in recruitment and retention. We have an increasing responsibility to provide a world-class health and dental plan, with uniformity of medical and dental benefits and standardized processes for beneficiaries as they move throughout the world.

The $50M funding received via FY99 Emergency Supplemental Appropriation for Morale, Welfare and Recreation, and Personnel Support for contingency deployments was greatly appreciated and will improve the QOL for all those deployed. Additionally, I fully support the pay and retention issues addressed by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the service component leaders. Improvement to QOL issues, in the long run, will serve to improve every CINC's manning concerns.

Housing

Last year Congress supported all but one of our FY99 Military Construction and Family Housing projects. I am grateful for your support, as are the troops and their families who benefit from these projects. The challenge of eliminating and renovating large numbers of inadequate housing is still a huge obstacle we attack on a daily basis. Those of you who have visited our theater know that more than one-half of our family housing and barracks fall far short of the DoD standards. Barracks constructed by the German Army in the 1930's have only received minor improvements and necessary maintenance and repair. Quarters built during the Marshall Plan era still have original kitchens, baths and utility systems.

Our Service Components have used a "worst first" strategy to upgrade our housing inventory. Current Defense guidance requires elimination of gang latrines by 2008 and elimination of inadequate housing by 2010. All services are on track to meet these goals. However, many of our service members will retire before their quarters are brought up to those standards.


The top-line increases reflected in the FY00 budget provided significant additional resources for Real Property Maintenance (RPM). However, remaining shortfalls in RPM accounts may further exacerbate the inadequate state of our housing. After must-fund requirements (fire protection, utility and trash removal bills, contracts and civilian pay) are met, there are precious few dollars left to do much more than emergency housing repairs. Commanders are making every effort to stretch their limited budgets, but our need is greater than the resources available.


Congress should remain committed to fixing housing in this theater."
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Kosmos Mariner Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Good Analysis!
You summed up my thoughts exactly. I am very peaceful, hate war, but support a strong military. We will be paying for the unwise invasion of Iraq for a long time. But, pulling out now would create a massive regional power vaccum, that truly would be a threat to the world. We need to atone for our proverbial sins, get the world community involved, conduct a controlled exchange of power, and leave the area at least semi-stable. It is really all about leadership. The world community does not have faith in, nor do they believe the Shrub Administration is sincere in their stated reasons for invading Iraq. We as citizens have to prove to the world that we are a great country, one to be friends with again. We must send W back to Crawford. Wes Clark will be the man to restore faith and respect back in this great nation.

:dem:
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
5. Dean first, Clark is my second choice, ABB!
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Dean has led from the start
eom
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The start?
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I created and cast the first vote for Dean in this poll. The start.
eom
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. oopsie...Clark up by 10 at this point.
I guess the last vote cast is just as important as the first.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick.
:dem:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Kick.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Neither
But Clark by far over Dean if they were the final 2. Dean has the potential to be the most disastrous nominee since Dukakis, in terms of electoral vote gathering. They aren't similar at all in temperament or campaign style, but equally the wrong nominees at the wrong time.

I don't want that angry asshole Dean as the Dem nominee - ever. He can take his smirk back to Vermont.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I Agree,Zomby (sigh) Can We at Least Wait Until A Human Being has voted
The Fast Forward,A.D.D. attitude across the country is boorish at best.

Let's see which campaign has the GOTV muscle in the Primaries.:bounce:

You still have to GOTV...can't vote from home,online,folks.

That's it and That's that; Over and out...I'm so tired of this Cyber crap.

:hangover:
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. McGovern had Porkorney;Let's See Who has the New Star in '04
:yourock: If my reference escapes you; Read a history book.

:grouphug: :donut:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. I Am For The Democratic Candidate Who Has The Best Chance Of
Beating *....

Any other position is to engage in self destructive vanity....
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Kick.
:dem:
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
go clark!
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teevee Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. clark all the way, baby
i liked dean at first, but he doesn't hold a candle to the general.
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. Again?
Clark! B-)
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. And again Clark
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'd Prefer A Dean-Clark Debate
Personally, I'm sick of the cattle calls, and I'd love to see a real debate - ANY debate.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. I think these polls show just how much backlash there is
against Dean's campaign and his Holy Roller followers than the popularity of Clark here. Like Dubya, Dean is a uniter, not a divider. :eyes:

If he wins the nomination he'd better start praying that people hate Bush so bad they will vote for Dean anyway, because the campaign he's run so far, his basic attitude, and the kind of people who are attracted to them, turn people off.
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_ Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. Dean
I like Clark a lot, but I wish he had a voting or legislative record to judge by. Credentials and military records only carry a certain amount of weight; fine if we're ever involved in a serious conflict of WW-III proportions. Right now I'm more concerned with the problems at home.

I'd love to see a Dean/Clark ticket.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Wow. Clark is killing Dean
This speaks volumes.
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_ Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Where?
In DU polls, or the equally meaningless Zogby/CNN/Time-Warner/MSNBC/etc "if the election were held today, whom would you vote for" type of opinions?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Soon.....
a rare Gem should be used wisely...

Like to beat Bush

Otherwise, it's suicide for the Dems!
Look at what's happened in LA.....we can beat them in the south, but only with a southerner....
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Maybe because the votes won't register?
Testing....a vote for Dean. Was 104, still 104 after I voted?
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. See post # 36
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:52 PM by Clark Can WIN
for the closest thing you can get to a legislative record.

On edit: I forgot! He also filed a friend of the court brief to the USSC supporting the University of Michigans stand on affermative action way before he started running for Prez.

don't have a link to that one :-( Anybody?
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. If you add a section for
"I'm so sick of this so I'm not voting in your poll" .. I'll vote for that one.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. My vote for Dean did not register.
It said 104 before I voted, and it said 104 after. I refreshed the page and it said 104 still.
I demand that my vote count.
:evilgrin:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Seriously, my vote did not register.
It says I voted but it did not change. Seriously.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. bobthedrummer hasn't been back since the Genral took the lead
Not the results he was looking for, I guess.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Someone else try a vote for Dean. See if it registers.
:hi:
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toolfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Worked fine
I logged in under my old name to try it, and it went from 104 to 105. I'm a Clark supporter, but I already voted for him with my regular name. You can consider my Dean test-vote yours if you'd like! :hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Thanks, but I want mine to count.
:hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Do others have different sign-in names they can switch to?
I never have. I have always had the same name. I would think it would recognize cookies or IP address.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I switched to my current name 4 months ago
and use it 99.9% of the time. The only time I use the other is when this one won't log on for some unknown reason, which is almost never. As for other people, I do not know.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. I think this poll has been Freeped - it didn't count my Dean vote either.
Are Jeb and Kate Harris on the Clark staff now? :evilgrin:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thank you!
I had the same thing happen a day or so ago, but I thought nothing of it. From now on I will watch. Ha Ha!
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Neither.
I'm voting Kerry in the primary (assuming he's still in the running when the primaries are held here); Kerry is a far preferable candidate to either (and to those who are going to inevitably bleat about his vote on the Iraq war resolution, he's explained his position; I understand and agree; and I'm sorry your brains are incapable of grasping nuance).
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. You are absolutely correct Spider
In fact I just donated to Kerry's campaign- (the first time ever, and it was more than $100). For everything he's done for us the past 38 years it's the least I could do for the man who would so obviously be the best president in our lifetimes.
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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Kerry has done a lot of good work over the years
He's not my primary choice, but I respect Kerry a lot. There are things about all the candidates that I like, and there are flaws in all of them that I don't like. But Kerry has certainly stood up for progressive ideas over the years. He's really done a lot over the years to espouse liberal causes, and I applaud him for it. He's a good man.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Kerry acts like he has a divine right to the nomination
and it really turns me off.
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