The Dean Deception

[ModerateMiddle]

http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

This article, very well researched, and footnoted! talks about Howard Dean pre-presidential run. It addresses his stances on many items of interest to this community throughout his years as governor of Vermont.

Snippets:

Though he has been dubbed a "raging liberal" by admirers and critics alike, Howard Dean governed Vermont strictly within the framework of the conservative Democratic Leadership Council.

Many people on the Vermont left see Dean’s current posture as politically motivated. "The notion that he is a liberal is ludicrous to those of us who worked with him in Vermont," said Terrill Bouricius, a former state representative.4 Dean admits that he recognized early on that the popular anger at Bush is "a raw energy, an energy that I know could be channeled."5

and

But such political maneuvering is nothing new for Dean. Upon becoming governor of Vermont in 1991, after the sudden death of then-Republican Governor Richard Snelling, Dean made a sharp turn to the right and pursued that course ever since. In his 11 years as governor, Dean would shift rightward on one position after another, all the while claiming to be concerned for the needy and less-fortunate, and disappointing all who thought they were getting someone who would govern from the liberal end of the political spectrum.

Dean inherited a massive deficit in the state budget from Snelling. Refusing to raise taxes on wealthier Vermonters (and rendering the tax system more regressive than previously), Dean declared in his first State of the State address that it would be his mission to balance the state budget with some "tough" cuts. Even though Vermont has no law requiring a balanced budget, Dean promised, "The pain for Vermonters will be real."7

Dean slashed millions of dollars from all sorts of social programs, from prescription drug benefits for Medicare recipients and heating assistance for poorer Vermonters to housing assistance funds. In defending his cuts to social programs, Dean said, "I don’t think I have to shy away from that just because I’m supposed to be a liberal Democrat."8

You owe it to yourself to check out this long, but very informative article.

[IranianDemocrat]

1. Wow.

.

[Closer]

3. 2 minutes after it's posted

and it gets a "wow" from IranianDemocrat. LMAO

You're a speed reader there aren't ya ID?

Just couldn't WAIT to pitch your 2 cents huh?


LOL


Now THAT'S funny. And OH so telling!

[IranianDemocrat]

8. A little sensitivity from a Deanie I see.

What's so telling?

The fact that Dean is being exposed as the true conservative Democrat? That the far left allegiance to him is over the IWR and Patriot Act solely?

BTW, I am a speed reader and I couldn't wait to pitch my 2 cents like most people on this forum.

I don't see how this is telling or funny, so lay off the personal attacks and take the information like a man.

[xultar]

39. I'm finding that plenty can dish it but not many can take it...

Now that's funny

[Skwmom]

52. I think the use of "conservative Democrat"

to describe Dean is not fair to conservative Democrats.

[aquart]

101. About these procrustean labels.......

Could you post a definition before you apply them?

What are the requirements to be labeled "liberal?" "Progressive?" "Moderate?" "Conservative?"

If Dean sucks up to the rich, he needs to be asked hard questions about it. If he slaughters social programs, he needs to be questioned.

THAT'S FAIR.

What is idiotic is this label swinging when there is every likelihood that we're applying the same labels and talking about different things because we never stop to define the damn things.

[retyred]

54. So just what is Dean?

Liberal....? ....Conservative?
Centrist?........
or
Whatever the moment dictates!



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[TLM]

66. Winning... that's what.

All the desperate spin and bashing won't change who Dean is... a moderate democrat.

Dean's supportes know he is no super liberal, despite the Bashers' attempts to spin that meme as if Dean was the one claiming that was the case.

[Selwynn]

71. DEAN WAS THE ONE CLAIMING THAT WAS THE CASE!!!!

Look I'm not for Dean or against him - I'm actively undecided, but for god's sakes he was running early on as the liberal outsider - he had newsletters that said its time to feel good about being a liberal again, and he even made speeches talking about taking back the party from the middle - he was RUNNING on being this no-nonsense independant LIBERAL, and now when he shifts into a nice comfortable moderate democrat roll, eveyone acts like it hasn't been a delibate change in style....

I'm an undecided candidate supporter, and these are just my observations.

[Brucey]

2. Who on DU ever thought Dean was a true liberal?

He is liberal on some issues (war in Iraq), conservative on others (death penalty), and middle on others. I doubt if anyone here feels deceived. I certainly don't.

[eileen_d]

4. This quote says it all

Dean admits that he recognized early on that the popular anger at Bush is "a raw energy, an energy that I know could be channeled."

(it's from a WP article BTW)

No one can deny that he's been immensely successful in doing that. And this energy will continue to attract some people, and alienate others.

[Eloriel]

16. Yes, and it's dishonestly taken out of context

so as to spin it that Dean is merely an opportunist.

I remember that interview, and when read in context, it's clear that Dean understood the zeigeist he was encountering and responded to it. He continues to be responsive to the people.

Unfortunately, some people here at DU are so boneheaded that they can't see that Dean is what we've all been craving for several years now: someone with a spine who actually listens to what people want, and adjusts his positions, etc., accordingly. NOT to pander, but to be responsive.

Pandering is saying what people want to hear even tho you don't believe it (dishonest); being responsive is listening to and understanding what people want and giving it to them (honest).

Eloriel

[paulk]

61. calling people "boneheaded"

because they don't see the same things in Dean that you do is no way to win friends and influence people.

It's a tactic I've seen too often from the Dean camp and, quite frankly, it's gone a long way toward alienating me from the candidate.

I guess I just don't occupy the elevated plane of consciousness it takes to truly understand Howard Dean. Perhaps I'm not evolved enough to see the difference between evolution and opportunism.


What is the difference between listening to and understanding what people want and saying whatever it takes to get elected? Wouldn't a past record be an accurate way to judge a politician's intentions?

If, as the article says, Howard Dean was a conservative leaning centrist in the past, how can I come to believe his populist rhetoric now? How can I make this great leap of faith?

[TLM]

72. WHat leap of faith...

"If, as the article says,"

The article is full of shit. If I showed you and article that called clitnon a rapist, would that make it true?



"Howard Dean was a conservative leaning centrist in the past,"

Nope, he was a moderate dem... he was fiscally conservative and socialy liberal.

"how can I come to believe his populist rhetoric now? How can I make this great leap of faith?"

No leap of faith... look at his record, not the spin and half story, but the record. The programs Dean cut were replaced with others, and you can not name one policy on which Dean was making great turns to the right as this hit piece claims.

Sucess by six, funding special ed, healthcare reform and coverage for everybody, enviornmental protection, energy reform, strict air and water standards and civil unions all while balancing state budgets... does that sound like the record fo a conservative?


The best you can find are a handful of enviornmental extreamists who wanted no development at all in VT and had a fit when dean told them they were wrong and Dean alowed restricted development in existing business regions.

[eileen_d]

94. Someone called me boneheaded?

Gee, I have that person on ignore. I can't imagine why... :eyes:

Some people like Dean's style and some people don't. That's all I was saying, and it shouldn't be news to anyone. I happen to not like Dean as much of some of the other candidates, but I was actually giving him credit for "harnessing the energy" that he has. And I get called a bonehead. Just another dizzay on DU :)

[Egnever]

5. These articles make me laugh

Dean has been saying from the start he wasnt a true liberal. It was the press that tried to put that label on him and he has been denying it ever since. The idea that he is trying to decieve people into thinking hes a liberal is a joke.

I find the idea that the media fooled themselves into putting a liberal label on him and is now mad that that label doesnt stick hilarious!

been through all of the stuff in this article and theres nothing new here other than the fact that the stupid media pundits are starting to wake up to the fact they dont know WTF they are talking about.

[drfemoe]

59. Nothing new but look who's saying nothing new

Rather than argue for a vote for someone who is sure to repay our support by cutting our living standards and promoting American power abroad, progressives and socialists would do better to argue for a break from the Democrats, focus on building the struggles that make all real progress possible–and create the political alternative that can embody them.

The sooner we break our illusions in the Democrats the better.


Doesn't sound real personal against Dean .. this guy doesn't like democrats.................

[TLM]

73. Most of these hit pieces are from greens and socialists

who , as you point out, hate the democratic party in general.


I recall one attack piece on Dean someone posted to try and show how liberals in VT hate Dean... yet one line in the piece attacked Dean by saying his enviornmental record was no better than AL GORE's.

[JNelson6563]

6. You mean Dean's not a hard-left liberal?????

And your revelation is....?

Oh, that they're still printing smear pieces on Dean. That must be it. I've seen this stuff posted and refuted so many times it's gotten kinda predicatble.

Got anything new? Maybe breathe new life into the flag-flap or something? How about Dean eats kittens?

*yawn*

Julie

[ModerateMiddle]

65. Refuted?

Or you mean we've been told it's all meaningless.

[TLM]

74. No it is a pile of lies, half truths and out of context quotes

used to try and claim Dean is way mroe to the right than he is.


While it is true Dean is no far left liberal, he is also not a conservative on anything beyond spending issues.

This piece is filled with BS, and I pointed that out in anothe post to this thread.

[paulk]

67. this is a smear piece?

But you even admit that the main thrust of the article - that Dean is not a hard left liberal - is correct. What is there to refute?

[Scott Lee]

7. What a crock of non-news. I mean really.

Deanophobes are getting desperate. I wonder what will be next...."Dean Spotted at Illuminati Meeting"...."Dean Really Hates Vegetarian Dishes"....

Bleh.

[eileen_d]

9. Well, he wasn't at the Illuminati meeting I went to

It was an important one too... maybe he didn't get the memo ;)

[Scott Lee]

15. Shhhh!! Ooselay ipslay inksay ipsshay! *wink*

[genius]

10. THank you for posting this. It proves what we've been saying about Dean

WHat an elitist pig.

[Renew Deal]

12. Dean accepts money from Halliburton execs.

Look up ROBERT CRANDALL at www.fec.gov or open secrets.

[eyesroll]

18. Actually, Robert Crandall does sit on the board of Halliburton

but his actual background as former chair of American Airlines. He's an airline guy, not really a Halliburton guy. (Corporate boards are usually made up of executives from a variety of industries.)

And besides -- politicians, regardless of how idealistic, generally do not turn down donations from individuals unless said individual is not eligible to donate or is absolutely reprehensible -- think Fred Phelps reprehensible. Green River killer reprehensible. I don't think Robert Crandall qualifies.

I bet, if you got an itemized list of Kucinich or Kerry or Edwards or whoever, you'd find at least a couple of people who sit on boards of Wal-Mart, Enron, Tyson, whatever, or who have other corporate skeletons in their closet. It's the nature of the beast.

[AP]

23. Actually, I'd be very surprised if an Enron, Halliburton, ExxonMobil board

member gave to Kerry, Kucincih or Edwards.

I'd be really surprised, unless there were extenuating circumstances. Anyone who has a fiduciary interest in these companies would not be giving money to a Democrat like Edwards or even Clark.

[eyesroll]

32. That's the thing -- "extenuating circumstances"

People in politics are well-connected. I don't know why Crandall gave to Dean -- he'd given to Bush in the past; but he also gave to Republican and Democratic Congressmen, too. (I looked this up a few days ago for another thread.) He could have gone to college with one of Dean's brothers. Their wives could know each other. He could be atoning for giving money to Bush four years ago -- maybe he has a nephew in Iraq? Or, he could be trying to buy influence, or he could believe that Dean is the weakest opponent for Bush and wants to help his favorite a second term, or all of the above. Who knows? They don't make you disclose motive on the donor forms. (That would be cool, actually.)

I don't necessarily mean Kucinich, et. al., specifically have contributions from an oil-company exec; but I'm sure there are some less-than-savory individuals on his list. I'd also expect the eventual nominee, or even the eventual two or three left standing, will have more of these questionable donors -- sometimes, executives contribute to Republicans and Democrats alike, hoping to curry favors. Again, it's the nature of things.

To me, it's not about who's contributing (although I would look at PAC contributions more closely than individuals). It's what a winner would do to help those who contribute. We already know what Bush does; we don't necessarily know what any of the Democrats would do, and I'll give all 9 of them the benefit of the doubt, for now.

[AP]

42. I would say that a donation to a Dem when that Dem chaired a subcommittee

which had some oversight on your business is an extenuating circumstance.

Enron gave Byrd a $1000 donation once because that was the case. Byrd said that, since he was chair of the committee, that was more like an insult.

Also, I bet the energy industry gives to EVERY politician in TX, Dem and Rep.

But a Republicans with a fiduciary interest in a heavily Republican business giving to a dem pres candidate out of the blue would be totally unusual.

[Cha]

27. It doesn't prove anything except they know

how to take things out of context and anyone without an agenda can see this...it doesn't take a genius.

[genius]

11. THis should also be posted in the politics forum

Everyone needs to read it.

[Melodybe]

14. I talked to Zephyr Teachout last night and she said that...

the incombant Gov. that Dean took over for was a Rep. and because Dean respected the people that voted for him, he did not change the agenda until he was elected. So quit only the giving the story in half truths, we have CNN and Faux for that. Also Dean the media whores were the ones that said that Dean was so "liberal" in the first place, they just didn't intend for it to help his campaign. Serves them right!

[AP]

19. Dean was elected Lt Gov. Why didn't he accept that as a mandate from

the people to do his will?

They guy's a democrat. You think he'd care a little about progressive taxation and a decent social safety net. When he was pushing for energy deregulation as late as 97 and 98, was he blaming that on his predecessor?

[dsc]

33. Aren't you the very same AP

who argued that his election as Lt Gov was meaningless since people don't pay attention to those races? So which is it?

[AP]

36. I said that he wasn't elected to be governor.

Then I was told, oh no, in VT the lt gov is elected, which I didn't know.

I said there's a difference between being elected lt gov and gov. People said, no, not much.

Now Dean fans are saying Dean couldn't be liberal because he wasn't elected to be gov?

OK.

[dsc]

40. I didn't say any such thing

and I defy you to find where I did. But you, on the other hand, are doing a 180 in order to criticise Dean.

[AP]

44. I didn't say YOU said it. I just gave you the timeline.

That was the summary of the debate.

[Egnever]

21. Zephyr is cool huh?

Met her here in Vegas. She was a lot of fun to talk to. Smart cookie and very commited to the good Doctor.

[Terran]

13. One problem with this article

It tends to lump all of Dean's 1990's Vermont fiscal decisions into one big ball, as if he made them all under the same conditions and at the same time. It implies loosely that he cut services to the poor and cut state income taxes at the same time, when in fact, if you look at the notes, those actions appear to have happened four years apart. So, his actions are perhaps not as egregious as they seem from the article.

BUT, as a social welfare advocate, I do NOT like the attitude that it's the poor who have to suffer when times are tough, and that is exactly what Dean appears to have done in 1995 when Vermont was in a budget defecit--put the cuts on the backs of the state's poor. I expect that from Republicans, not Democrats. This just shows me that Dean is nothing unusual, really--just another Democrat who's too scared to raise taxes on the rich to solve a fiscal crisis. It doesn't mean I won't vote for him, but I do find this very disappointing. I admire his other big-picture stances, but for me the glow has been fading from Dean for some time, and this has finally taken it off entirely.

[Eloriel]

20. But the fact that having balanced the budget

gave him the flexibility (and MONEY) to put ALL Vermont's children under healthcare, and provide prescription benefits to Seniors, and implement a plan which has cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by 70% doesn't count with you, I guess?

Or the fact that what we desperately need right now in this country is someone who will address the lethal budget deficits and bring some sanity to our fiscal policy, so that the country doesn't implode and literally cease to be (see Paul Krugman)?

Pity.

I want Dean in office with all my heart and soul. NONE of the other candidates have the grit to do what needs to be done. None of them.

Eloriel

[KittyWampus]

83. We Need To Cut Pentagon Funding- Which Dean Will & Cannot Do

So Dean will have to roll back the entire tax cut... even those which go to the Middle Class.

[Zomby Woof]

24. I am with you

Dean is business-as-usual, and though he would obviously be better than the current pretender - hell, my big toe would make a better "president" than the Chimp - we should do better than Dean. He seems to be more about the hopes and dreams (and yes, plenty of anger) projected onto him by his cult following rather than having anything of substance to show for it, or offer.

This will get me on a lot of ignore lists (but so what, lol), but just my GUT tells me that this man is bad news, never mind his record or his positions. I don't trust him much more than anyone in the current regime. He will do NOTHING for the working class, and I am embarrassed that the SEIU endorsed him. They, like many others, will find out what a disappointment Dean is likely to be. They put a lot of false hopes into a flimsy vessel.

Dean doesn't just give me a bad vibe, he IS a bad vibe.

We can do better, but unfortunately, America doesn't seem to WANT someone better. We like the comfortable status quo, even when it is packaged as "an exciting alternative". :boring:

Dean is the status quo, more of the same corporatized mediocrity delivered through the internet poop chute and media outlets nationwide. Reserve your copy today!

[Cha]

34. Dean is the Best! And gives me nothing but

Grreat Vibes! And I'm glad Dean gives the SEIU, the California Teacher's Association, the Painter's Union, the Federal Employee's Union, and Jesse Jackson Jr., Elija Cummings, and Major Owen's all Good Vibes, too!

[Zomby Woof]

41. If I were Dean

I'd reject any endorsement from the California Teacher's Union (Motto: Failure IS an Option) or the spawn of Jesse Jackson. The rest should prepare for a massive disappointment.

[Cha]

57. Nah! The California Teachers are great...

we have some of them on DU. And Jesse Jackson Jr is an articulate eloquent person who I heard speaking out against the Iraqi invasion Before bush dropped the Bombs. And there will be no "massive disappointment" unless bush wins and I don't think that's going to happen.

[Skwmom]

63. Bush gives a lot of people "good vibes" too.

So what does that prove?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

95. Yep, and the proof he is too scared to raise taxes on the rich

is that he wants to repeal ALL the tax cuts.
He should stick to practicing medicine.

[Dr Fate]

17. Dean is not my 1st choice, but I dont feel "decieved" one bit...

...I agree with Dean over Bush on nearly every single issue.

I've always thought he was good DEM- a governor with a solid record, and importantly he's always proud to be a Democrat- before it was cool!

The candidate bashing at DU is SOOOO old- we need to get unified as the battle against the real enemy- BUSH/media heats up...

[ArtieBoy]

26. Sigh...

This does give me pause. But between the front runners, what are our choices? The fiery doctor who may not be as different from Bush as we thought, or Kerry, the dopey sitcom dad (my impression, no offense) who knuckled right under to the Republicans even when the whole world cried out for us not to go to war? Then there's the general, who had to be drafted, is backing out of some primaries, and doesn't seem to have his positions nailed down even though the race has begun?

Please, just let me support Dean and get on with it! x(

[Dr Fate]

31. Dean is better than Bush on every single issue, and I am a gun owner.

So guns are not an issue to me in 2004.

His 2004 election positions on the economy, war, foreign policy,education,health care, privacy, the Bill of Rights and just about every thing I can think of trump Bush.

I call him "Mean Dean"- but I mean it in a good way. Dont tell me voters do not respond to passion- they do- and that is one thing DEMS have been missing. Clark is fiesty too, and voters who want change like that.

I dont see Deans "anger" as a losing thing- A lot of Americans, even non-partisan ones are anger. It's possible that Dean could guide his passion to his advantage...

[Eloriel]

35. Oh, c'mon, ArtieBoy

That stuff is just junk, garbage, a hit piece. Don't let it get to ya.

Welcome to DU!

Eloriel

[Zomby Woof]

28. I'll hold off unifying until the convention...

Maybe.

For now, I prefer expressing my misgivings about some of the candidates as is. It isn't bashing we are doing, it is the honest expression of our opinions and reservations. If we are going to pretend to be a democracy in America, I at least want to experience some of the related messiness that goes with it, and if that means a scrap or two, so be it. I won't subjugate my serious distaste for Dean in the name of "unity". Hell, the election is not quite a year away, why be meek now?

I don't like Dean, and many of us who don't will continue to say so while observing the DU rules on the matter.

[Dr Fate]

37. We will have to back the winner...

...and I am staying in the mind set.

Some of us are going to have a lot of trouble turning off their comtempt or whatever, once we get our nominee.

This should be a big concern right now, not after the convention...

I'm going to try to promote unity now, because it's going to so hard to just flick a switch and have it once it's time for us to take on the real enemy- Bush/media...

The raw animosity (I have not seen this in your posts, BTW)that I see concerns me- How ARE we going to get together after the convention with all this bad blood???

Dean beats Bush on every single issue, and if he wins the nomination, then he is my main man 100%...

[Zomby Woof]

48. if he gets the nod

I will vote for him. I won't offer any phony cliches about "holding my nose", because I want Bush out bad enough to vote for a pebble if I had to. But meanwhile, while I do have alternatives, I will keep my options open, and my doubts about Dean freely expressed.

I can only speak for myself about re-adjusting or "flipping the switch", but to me it is no big deal. I can compartmentalize easily. I will criticize Dean now, and if he gets the nod, I will vote for him. No noses will be harmed in the casting of my vote.

I won't campaign for him, I won't promote him, I won't even have a sign or a sticker - but in the voting booth, where it (hopefully) will count, I will punch the card for him.

I think you are generally right, with the possible exception of the economy. Dean is nearly as reactionary as Bush, and things could get REALLY disastrous.

Foreign policy? No where to go but up.

On the environment and education, very likely better. On healthcare? Perhaps.

But I really wish we had a better crop of candidates. It feels like a rerun of 1988 in some ways.

[ModerateMiddle]

70. Thank you

That's what I feel like I'm doing. I didn't like Bush before the election, and I wasn't quiet about that. I don't care for Dean either, and I don't intend to be quiet about that either. After we have a democratic nominee, I'll assess my options. In the meantime, this IS politics in a democracy.

I don't have to shut up.

[Dr Fate]

80. No one said you had to shut up, I'm talking strategy though...

...and if you are not voting fo the DEM in 2004, then I cant help you and you CERTAINLY cant do me in favors...


...we are going to have fight a real enemy in 2004...

I think it's a mistake for us to generate animosity towards a candidate that we may have to support...But hey, if your goal is to defeat Bush in 2004, then we will have to work together and find common ground- we have no other choice...

...no offense, but if you are not voting DEM in 2004 then there is nothing I can do for you and nothing you can do for me...

[quinnox]

22. Dean: phony in liberals clothing

Dean and deception, words that go very well together.

Dean - the man who will change any position on a dime depending on what he thinks will work in polls best.

Dean - man of no principle, flip-flopper extraordinaire

Dean - the ultimate panderer

[Beaker]

25. As the DLC stealth candidate, a Dean administration

will pretty much resemble the Clinton Years, but without the intern, or the tech boom.

[Zomby Woof]

30. but we get to keep the smirk of the Bush years!

And not just a little of the self-righteous indignation and corporate pandering too.

[Cha]

38. No ...you're wrong ..Dean would make a wonderful

President and there's no way he should be compared to bush. Au contraire.

[Zomby Woof]

49. you have to admit

They both outsmirk the competition. As for far more substantive comparisons to Bush, see my reply to Dr Fate above about where Dean will likely be an improvement over Bush - but then, the blister on my big toe would be better than Bush. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=716203&mesg_id=716568&page=

The real issue is: Why can't the Dems do better than Dean as their front-runner?

[OKNancy]

55. Some of us are working on it

I'll vote for Dean, but I really, really believe he will be a big loser. The electoral college map just doesn't look good against a sitting President.

[Zomby Woof]

56. I still think we have a good chance

I am deemed too cynical by some, but I really think the Dems can get back the WH, I just question who we are trying to do so with, rather than if we can.

Incumbents are no sure thing. I take solace in 1992 as a recent example. The country is very much divided among a 50-50 line, and although I could see Dean losing, it would unlikely be by McGovernite or Mondale proportions. It won't be as close as 2000, no matter which way it goes. But it will be close.

[aquart]

102. Bush I was a sitting president.

And Bush has since alienated many groups which voted for him, foolishly, the first time.

[Cha]

58. So Sorry you can't see what our campaign

is about. http://www.deanforamerica.com
http://www.blogforamerica.com

And I'll agree that your "big toe" is better than bush.

[Zomby Woof]

60. no need to send links

I have seen the Dean site, and no thanks! :puke:

Just accept the fact that not all of us are enamored of Governor Hothead and his status quo agenda.

[TLM]

76. Boy you seem to have a lot of snide attacks...

yet nothing to back them up and very few, if any, specific examples.

Par for the standard Dean basher.

Care to inform us of who running is so much better than Dean and why?

[Zomby Woof]

100. I don't think you have ever read my other posts

If you had, you'd know that I think we have the worst field of Dems running since 1988 - I am not enthralled with ANY of them. But Dean is the front-runner, and my least favorite after Lieberman.

I am not a "Dean basher", whatever the hell that is. I don't like him, I think his economic policies are the standard conservative bullshit, I don't like his stance on guns, and I think he has the wrong temperament for the most powerful job in the world.

I could get more specific, and give you a point by point rebuttal, but why bother? With the fanatical devotion given by you and others, any attempt at reason would be met with "lalalala, I can't hear you!", so I'd rather make my points quickly (and yeah, maybe a bit too flippantly) and get out.

I tend to post to the level of debate I am given.

So, can you accept the unpleasant truth that some people just aren't in love with Dean and have the right to express their misgivings about him? Shall we dissenters just shut up if we don't frost our cookies for him?

The answer is no, we shall not.

[ModerateMiddle]

77. Many of us are very capable of seeing

the wonderful things that the "campaign" has done. What we are questioning is the "candidate" chosen to do it with.

[TLM]

75. Beaker, the DLC attacked Dean as a fringe leftist...

And current DLC memebrs, Kerry, Liberman and Edwards had nothing to say about it.

Dean is not currently amember of the DLC, having broke with them over their move to the right.

Do try to keep your facts straight.

[Beaker]

81. maybe you don't understand the word "stealth"

I honestly don't see a lot of difference between the Dean platform, and what the DLC likes to preach....Maybe I'm just missing it-
Could anyone point out the areas where Dean differs appreciably and to the left of the DLC horde??
I'm open to persuasion- I was enamoured of Dean early on, But the more I looked, the less I liked all that much...and then came Wes.
I'm more pro-Clark than anyone else, and feel that at this juncture, He'd be the best candidate...HOWEVER-
I'd prefer to see an administration where there was a little more "power-sharing" between the two top jobs, President & Veep. In the current administration, it's obvious to many that Cheney has more sayso on policy than the Lil'Dictator, so a precedent has been set.
Having a one that can handle forien policy & the military, and the other to focus "like a laser beam" on the economy and domestic issues...Clark/Dean might even work- but Dean seems a little too content with Bush's tax cuts to appeal to me.

[dsc]

29. There is deception all right but not by Dean

Here is the source for the 8% income tax cut

11 Interview with Anthony Pollina by Democracy In Action at the Progressive Party offices in Montpelier, Vermont, July 9, 2002. Anthony Pollina ran for governor against Dean on the Progressive Party ticket in 2000. Available at www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/pollinaint.html

Yep, your eyes aren't decieving you they relied on his opponent in 2000 (his last election) for that.

Is it true. Well, to paraphrase Hertz, not even close.

Unlike this source I used neutral figures and here is the truth.

Now to state income taxes. Dean inherited a tax structure that was 28% of the federal taxes of any citizen of Vermont. Using Clinton's tax numbers that would be a three tiered system of 4.2%, 7.56%, and 9.9% of federal taxable income. He changed that to a five tier system of 3.6%, 7.2%, 8.5%, 9.0%, and 9.5% of federal taxable income. My link provides charts to show when each rate kicks in. That is actually a progressive tax cut. Poor people percent taxation was lowered by a greater amount than that of rich people. The rich got 0.4% while the poor got 0.6%. That is the reverse of what Bush did. The poor got 5% while the rich got 6%. I was wrong on one thing in previous threads. State taxes are still deductable. Also if Bush had not been elected Dean would have probably left taxes at 24% of the federal tax (where his 99 tax cut left them) that would be 3.6%, 6.48%, 9.36%. That would be a flat tax cut. This is not the Bush supply side economics that Dean haters pretend it is.

www.state.vt.us/tax/majorvttaxes.htm
www.leg.state.vt.us/reports/tax/vol1-03.htm

You need both links to have the full story. Now the claim is that Dean cut income taxes 8%. Since they don't really define that very well it can mean several things. It could mean the rate fell 8% but if we try that we see that is wrong. Dean started with 28% and ended with 24%. Subtraction yields that as being 4% not 8%. It might mean that ones total tax bill was reduced by 8%. In the top bracket (and that is these people's problem) rates declined from 9.9% to 9.36%. 8% of 9.9% is .792% Dean cut taxes by .64%. So they are wrong there as well. So maybe they dishonestly included the effect of Bush's cuts (which Dean later negated in his state). Let's see. 24% of 35% is 8.4%. That would be a cut of 1.5% so they didn't do that. Maybe Dean's opponent did what opponents often do, made up the figure out of thin air.

It took me a very short time and a not all that careful reading to find this howling error. Some might call it a deception. Ask yourself. If I could find this howler in a few minutes just how good are those endnotes? Ann Coulter had end notes too after all.

[madfloridian]

45. Hi, dsc, take the period off the end of your first link.

Looks like some good reading there and at the other links for folks who want facts. Thanks.

[AP]

47. The new fed code mandated the more progressive 5-tier system

but Dean still cut the rates accross the board, right?

So the progressive part was Clinton's gift. The accross the board cuts were Dean's idea, right?

[dsc]

51. The five rates were

Dean's in 01 and in response to Bush's tax cuts. The link makes that clear but I evidently messed up the link. Clinton had at most four rates (15, 29, 39) is what I think he had.

[dsc]

53. Turns out I owe Mr. Pollina an apology

He isn't the source for that claim. Instead it is some Rutland Hearld pieces.

[killbotfactory]

43. Dean ran VT into the ground, and was only elected due to stealing votes

he hald VT hostage for years as their quality of life decreased and now it's like a 3rd world country.

Dean: From the Gingrich Centrist Ultra-liberal wing of the democratic party.

[Dr Fate]

46. Do you have a link backing your vote stealing accusation?

Dean is not my #1 choice, but I dont like smears against DEMS either...

[Egnever]

50. He was being sarcastic

He is a very firm dean suporter.

I am pretty sure he was joking

[RetroLounge]

62. Another Dean Hit Piece. Yawn...

:boring: :boring: :boring:
:boring: :boring: :boring:
:boring: :boring: :boring:

[Scott Lee]

64. Somehow I just can't see Dean losing any sleep over a hit piece

from International Socialist Review.

Am I way out on a limb here?

[ModerateMiddle]

78. No, he probably does not

However, SEIU, AFSCME, CTA, MoveOn.org and a good number of the denizens here at DU ought to be concerned.

[Scott Lee]

96. I don't lose any sleep over it either.

I see it for what it is: another hit piece leveled at a frontrunner because some don't want to see a non-establishment candidate win the tour jacket.

[TLM]

68. What a steaming pile...

"Though he has been dubbed a "raging liberal" by admirers and critics alike, Howard Dean governed Vermont strictly within the framework of the conservative Democratic Leadership Council."


Funny sicne it was teh DLC that tried to dismiss Dean early on as a fringe leftist who did not represent the heart of the party. That would be the same DLC in which Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman are all CURRENT members.


"But such political maneuvering is nothing new for Dean. Upon becoming governor of Vermont in 1991, after the sudden death of then-Republican Governor Richard Snelling, Dean made a sharp turn to the right and pursued that course ever since. In his 11 years as governor, Dean would shift rightward on one position after another,"

Noticce there is a claim of this massive rightward shift, but as ususal no specific policy shifts listed. Because while Dean did cut some programs and did reduce the growth of others, he also put into effect new programs that picked up the slack in a more cost effective way.


"all the while claiming to be concerned for the needy and less-fortunate,"

THe record shows that Dean was focused ont he needy and less fortunate, from healthcare to sucess by six, Dean was focused on those who were in the most need.


" and disappointing all who thought they were getting someone who would govern from the liberal end of the political spectrum."

Yeah that must be why one of the most liberal states in the country re-elected him five fucking times in a row.

"Dean slashed millions of dollars from all sorts of social programs, from prescription drug benefits for Medicare recipients and heating assistance for poorer Vermonters to housing assistance funds. In defending his cuts to social programs, Dean said, "I don’t think I have to shy away from that just because I’m supposed to be a liberal Democrat."


This is such dishonest shit... Dean would move money from one area, like nursing homes, and put it into in-home care so that seniors in need could continue to live on their own and not in a nursing home... and the Dean bashers scream DEAN CUT FUNDS TO NURSING HOMES! They ignore where the money went or that other programs we set up to pick up the slack and cut other costs for nursing homes so the loss did not hurt them.



Prescription Drugs — Governor Dean understands the importance of access to prescription drugs in preserving health and avoiding unnecessary institutional care of our seniors and people with disabilities. While in office Governor Dean expanded pharmaceutical assistance to these Vermonters. Vermont has three pharmacy assistance programs with the level of benefits for each program indexed to household income. Seniors and people with disabilities can have incomes up to 225% of the federal poverty line and receive assistance with their prescriptions.

Nursing Homes — Governor Dean decreased the state’s reliance on nursing homes by mandating that funds be shifted from nursing homes to other services, such as home health care where people can live with independence and dignity. Over $30 million dollars has been shifted from paying for nursing homes to paying for in-home and community based services.

Home Health Care — Between 1996 and 2000, there was a 161.3% increase in individuals receiving a home-based waiver and services, while there was a decrease of 13.5% in individuals living in nursing homes.

Too many of America’s citizens are struggling to keep up with the sky-rocketing cost of prescription drugs. While other candidates are putting forth ideas on how to control drug costs, Governor Howard Dean has been busy putting his ideas into action. For eleven years, Dean balanced Vermont's budgets and took on the brand name pharmaceutical industry to lower costs for Vermont’s citizens. His actions have produced results: for the third consecutive year, an independent research company has named Vermont the nation’s “Healthiest State” (http://www.morganquitno.com/hc03press.htm).

Dean’s cost containment actions include closing loopholes to make generic drugs more readily available, allowing for the re-importation of prescription drugs from Canada, and curbing strategies used by the pharmaceutical companies to promote more expensive drug choices. The following is a more complete description of some of the actions Governor Dean put in place in Vermont which are having a major impact at the national level.

Drug Patent Reform. Governor Dean was the driving force in creating Business for Affordable Medicine (BAM), a coalition of governors, business interests and organized labor with one objective closing loopholes used by brand name drug manufacturers to prevent or delay lower-priced generic drugs whose patents have expired from reaching the marketplace. BAM is attempting to reform the Hatch-Waxman Act to achieve this objective.

Governor Dean created and coordinated unanimous passage of NGA policy on the need to reform the Hatch-Waxman Act. (February 26, 2002). Prior to efforts of BAM, all efforts to close the loopholes in Hatch-Waxman had failed. Governor Dean's leadership with other governors and his work on Capitol Hill helped set the stage for a successful Senate amendment to this year’s Medicare drug benefit legislation. The Senate passed the BAM reform amendment by a vote of 94-1, and it has also been included in the House’s version of the legislation. If enacted, this legislation would make cost-effective generic drugs available earlier.

Preferred Drug List (PDL) and Supplemental Rebates: There are several proven strategies that states like Vermont have been using for several years to lower drug costs in the Medicaid program. Vermont has been a leader in these measures, and Governor Dean wants to expand them nationally:

Through Preferred Drug Lists (PDLs), states ensure that doctors and patients use less expensive medications where clinically possible. Vermont started with one class of drugs - gastric acid reducers which includes the highly-advertised drugs Prilosec and Nexium, and put a less expensive therapeutically-equivalent alternative drug on the preferred list. The results have been remarkable: Vermont’s Medicaid expenditure on gastric acid reducers has been slashed by 43%.
Another important step is forcing Pharmacy Benefits Managers (PBMs) to have transparent contracts with the manufacturers to disclose any financial incentives they might receive from drug manufacturers. Vermont was one of the first states to implement such an agreement, and this is another step that Governor Dean wants to take nationally.
Finally, Vermont last summer expanded the PDL and began to negotiate supplemental rebates with drug companies, in addition to those the companies provide in accordance with federal Medicaid law.
The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, a trade group known as PhRMA, filed suit against the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, questioning HHS’s authority to grant states the ability to use PDL’s. Governor Dean organized 22 other Governors who sent a letter of support to Secretary Tommy Thompson on August 12, 2002. In addition, Governor Dean organized a press conference on this suit with other Governors at the National Governors Association summer meeting.

Disclosure of Gifts to Doctors. Last June, Governor Dean signed a bill into law which, among other things, made Vermont the first state in the nation to require pharmaceutical manufacturers to disclose the value, nature, and purpose of any gift, fee, subsidy, or other economic benefit provided to any physician, hospital, nursing home, pharmacist or health benefit plan administrator in Vermont.

Re-importation for personal use: Governor Dean has endorsed the strategy of United Health Alliance’s Medicine Assist program, enabling U.S. citizens to obtain prescription drugs from Canada via fax. Canadian drug prices are, on average, half those in the United States. Governor Dean has held press numerous conferences encouraging people to take advantage of the plan to make their prescription drug costs more affordable.

[Selwynn]

69. I've said for a long time that deans governing history doesn't match...

...his current rhetoric. He's a moderate at best. Which is fine, he would still make a much better president than Bush, but I just don't like it when he tries to act like he's this strong leftists. If anyone in politics saw an actual leftist progressive who they had no choice but to take seriously they would crap themselves.

[TLM]

79. WHen has dean ever claimed to be a far leftist?

The only time I see that claim it is in the form of attacks from the DLC or from the right. Dean has always said he a moderate.

So if you do not like Dean being called a far leftist, take it up with the people making the claim, not Dean.

[SahaleArm]

82. I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

Dean said so himself - http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/newengla2003/vt__dean_sappeal_13_2003.shtml

[Scott Lee]

98. NOWHERE in that article does Dean claim to be a leftist!

Not in one single paragraph.

He does take the rightwing to task in several places. But that does not equate calling oneself a "far leftist".

I am a Far Leftist. I believe not only in the preeminence of working people but in the gradual disappearance of Capitalism. Do you think Dean agrees with that??

Get real. When will the Deanophobes stop resorting to lies in order to satiate their growing, psychotic hatred of this man?

[SahaleArm]

104. Democratic wing of the Democratic Party

What do you think Dean means when he says 'I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party'? That's Wellstone's line referring to lefty liberals and progressives. Dean said it; was it all a lie?

[Scott Lee]

105. OK, turn hearing aid UP.....

*Did Dean say he was a leftist, or a "far leftist" anywhere in said article or any other?*

No?

So where is the "lie", I ask again?

[Scott Lee]

97. Only in the minds of his obsessive detractors.

[deutsey]

84. Sophistry

I'm someone who is very much on the left who still supports Dean. I find this article, with all its "footnotes", to be nothing more than ideological sophistry.

Look, I know Dean isn't some leftist savior (and he has neve claimed to be); but I see him at least open to critiques made by leftists while at the same time being someone who can appeal to the middle and even to disgruntled conervatives.

If the author of this can't recognize that a large number of Americans are repelled by his vision of socialism, then he should just recognize he's going to live a lifetime of political frustration here in America.

Sorry, them's the facts, Keithie boy...facts you and other purists ain't too open to acknowledging, apparently.

[SahaleArm]

85. Then tell Dean to quit stealing Wellstone's line. *nm*

*nm*

[deutsey]

86. Yeah, I'll get that right to him.

:shrug:

[deutsey]

87. I also suppose you'd like for Dean to return the Wellstone Award

the AFL-CIO gave him:

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01082003.cfm

[SahaleArm]

88. Wellstone is rolling over in his grave *nm*

*nm*

[deutsey]

89. Yeah, I'm sure you can substantiate that claim

along with the other claims you make.

I'd actually prefer pictures of the rolling if you have them.

[SahaleArm]

90. I'm here to represent the Starbucks wing of the Democratic Party.

A more appropriate substitute:evilgrin:

[deutsey]

91. Well, I sure can't see a Clarkie representing much of what Wellstone

represented, so I won't bother to challenge your claim.

:evilgrin:

All hail, General Clark, Socialist U.S Army.

[SahaleArm]

92. I'll stop now.

You didn't take the bait:P? Wellstone was very much into socialistic principles, but not a socialist.

[deutsey]

93. Au contraire

can't you smell my baited breath?

:silly:
PS: Got a mint you can spare?

[jhfenton]

99. Dean's record

I know I'm in the minority here (conservative southern Democrat), but I've always found Dean's record in Vermont to be encouragingly conservative. None of this should come as a surprise to anyone paying attention. Dean's campaign as a moderate liberal has struck me as insincere, but understandable at the primary stage. He'll become a moderate-moderate for the general election.

All I care about is that Dean is serious about civil liberties, unlike George Jr. Beyond that, conservative looks good to me. Hopefully, he'll live up to his "A" grade from the NRA, too.

[Romberry]

103. You owe it to yourself...

...to stop tearing down Democrats. You want Bush back in office? Fine. Just keep it up. Nothing like the circular firing squad among Democrats to help out a Republican. They count on it.

People who support other candidates would do well to spend their time building their candidate up and less tearing Dean down. And if their candidate can't beat Dean for the nomination, perhaps there is a reason?