Should John Allen Muhammad be given the death penalty?

[goobergunch]

I vote no. IMHO, the death penalty is wrong in all circumstances.

[jiacinto]

I vote yes

This piece of trash deserves to die. And shame on the others for not voting yes.

[AP]

6. How do feel about that old white TX millionaire who killed one guy,

which he admitted, and probably killed another (which was why he killed the second) and TX acquitted him?

How do feel about the fact that there only 10 or so states which execute minors?

[jiacinto]

42. Answered the question on juveniles

Durst should have been found guilty. And he should have been fried.

[AntiCoup2K4]

180. Durst should be fried for his crappy music alone

Huh? Oh sorry, I thought you meant FRED Durst :silly:

[quaker bill]

24. While I agree the man is a fine candidate

for the ultimate punishment, I don't believe in the death penalty. It sets the example that society believes killing can be justice.

Perhaps in his sick and twisted view of the world, he thought he was doing justice as well.

Whatever, it is clear that our having and using the death penalty did not deter him.

[glarius]

36. I don't want the government killing anyone in my name ...no matter how

evil they are...Put them in jail and throw away the key...(I don't really have a say here, not being American...anyway we don't have the death penalty in Canada...thank God.)

[youngred]

72. shame for not condoning the murder of a human being?

I'm sorry, but an eye for an eye solves nothing and makes the whole world blind. I do not want this piece of trash's life on my conscience.

He is a horrible, wretched excuse for a vile piece of slime...but he does not deserve to be killed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

210. Well, he DOES deserve to die but...

...it is society who doesn't deserve to become a killer. That's my humble opinion.

[blondeatlast]

260. Very well put! Wish I'd said that . . .

[funkyflathead]

165. I AGREE! n/t

[GreenArrow]

201. well,

would you be willing to pull the switch? Make the injection? Pull the trap?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

209. Please add me to the list of "shameful" individuals

I'll wear it as a badge of honor. No killing, period.

[Padraig18]

1. I agree.

The death penalty is an arcane relic of a barbaric past.

[jiacinto]

3. The sniper is barbaric

He should fry--and soon.

[goobergunch]

7. I believe it is a harsher punishment

to force him to sit in jail for the rest of his life than to give him the release of death.

[jiacinto]

11. No he should fry

he killed more than one person and is dangerous. This case I support it.

[youngred]

83. dangerous to whom?

the man would probably end up being beaten to death in prison. There is no way in hell he'd ever get paroled

[jiacinto]

93. He could escape

Then that filthy animal could kill more people.

[youngred]

107. escape rates are miniscule

where would he get a weapon to kill more people? You think ANYONE would sell this asshole a weapon? do you really think the area around the prison wouldn't be crawling with every cop on the eastern seaboard looking for him? especially considering the profile of this asshole.

[Walt Starr]

117. Murder rates in prisons are high

There are people in prison with a real chance at reform. Muhammed could kill one of them easily.

The person with a chance deserves it. Muhammed has no chance at reform.

[youngred]

119. It's far more likely he'd be killed than kill another

and do you *really* think they won't be watching him 24/7?

[Walt Starr]

123. Have you ever been to a prison?

Take a tour. Get to know the inmates, then get back to me.

Muhammed is just the sort of personality to become a leader in prison.

I've seen it. I know what prisoners are like. Muhammed would thrive in that environment and would be put on a pedestal by the group that chose to follow him.

[youngred]

138. No I haven't

I do however know that there is much anger towards those who commit barbaric crimes like this (and child molestation etc). You think he'd get a following, i think he'd get killed.

we'll never get to see the answer but I think you're wrong as wrong as the death penatly. guess we'll have to disagree

[blondeatlast]

262. I've thought about that too.

Still, as I understand it, (please correct me if I'm mistaken--I won't take offense), his crime is going to be considered the work of a coward. This leads to disrespect, if I'm not mistaken. He killed literally defenseless people.

Put him in solitary as far as I'm concerned.

[Yupster]

181. He could kill someone in prison

like that other murderer did to that old molestor priest not too long ago.

[youngred]

186. yes, but what I said

is that he would be the one more likely to be killed considering the highly barbaric and high profile nature of the killings

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Sure, but that also costs money...

Now I'm in no way saying that we should kill people, because it's cheap. I'm saying that it's not worth spending the money to keep him in prison for life because it's a harsher punishment.

[AP]

113. Life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty

Because the DP is such a severe punishment, there are a thousand guarantees of due process and equal protection, which, when the're even only poorly funded, turn out to be way more expensive than life in prison.

Why we spend so much money to do something so poorly when so much is at stake, is beyond me.

Passing a DP law probably added something like 300 million dollars to the cost of running government in New York state and they haven't even ever executed anyone. It's so stupid.

[AP]

105. harsh or not, the government should not be in the business of killing...

...people except as a last resort when your back is up agianst the wall and you're defending what you believe from anhilation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

212. Of course, he still gets to kill again under THAT scenario

Under mine, he is no threat to anyone ever again.

[Padraig18]

12. Pffft!

What next? Bring back the wheel? The rack? Drawing and quartering? No nation worthy of the description 'civilized' should be killing people, except in times of defensive wars.

[theboss]

208. Drawing and quartering got a bad rap

They were much more creative in the Middle Ages.

[AP]

30. He's no more barbaric than that Durst guy in TX who was

acquitted for murdering a guy and cutting him into pieces.

However, in America we only punish people we can portray as animals. It's easier for people to embrace the idea that black men are barbaric than to embrace the idea that old white men are human, thanks to racism.

If you ask me, the British royal family are the most barbaric people I've ever seen. They better have good manners, because without those manners they'd look like what they are: ignorant freeloader lazy shits who think society owes them a free ride because of their genes.

[TexasMexican]

66. wrong

He was more barbaric because he and his partner ruined more lives than Durst did.

[Walt Starr]

88. I think Durst also deserves the death penalty

but then again, what do I know. I'm also the guy who believes Simpson deserved the death penalty.

[AP]

95. I think Durst deserved A CONVICTION!

I don't think the DP is ever wise. But I think this guy should have been convicted.

[AP]

92. Virginia only charged him with two murders.

Durst killed one person in TX. It's not so different, from the prosecutor's point of view.

Durst thought he could get away with it because he was rich. That's very barbaric, to me. Mohammed just seems a little mad, and I'm surprised he passed a comptetency exam (or maybe VA is one of the many states which makes it easy to convict crazy people).

[Walt Starr]

101. I don't buy the insanity defense in murder cases

If somebody kills another human being, they are insane by default, IMO.

I do not and will not consider insanity justification for murder.

So if you're a defense attorney and you plan on using the insanity defense, you don't want me on your jury. I can't buy that defense.

[Speed8098]

194. Contradiction?

If somebody kills another human being, they are insane by default, IMO


Wouldn't that include the government Walt??


Death Penalty is NEVER an option.

[TexasMexican]

fwiw

I have no problem with executing mentally retarded or insane people who kill people.

IMO they are more dangerous than a rational person since they dont know killing is wrong, so it could be more likely that they would do it again.

[AP]

116. Unfortunately for you, we have a criminal justice system which is...

...organized around the principle of punishing people for the acts they intended to commit.

It's not organized around the principle of permanently removing every risk from society.

Why don't we just kill all insane and retarded people before they do anything bad. After all, if they can't control their actions and don't understand the consequences of their actions, they're capable of murdering at any moment.

[TexasMexican]

122. ...

Well thats exactly why we cant kill or punish people who havent commited any crimes yet.

People with fucked up brains who murder people have committed a crime and we can punish them for that.

Certain people are given longer or shorter (death penalty or not) sentances based on thing such as if they show remorse or if it is believe its likely that they will commit more crimes in the future.

[AP]

133. A person with a fucked up head...

...who hasn't committed a crime is different from a person with a fucked up head who was committed a crime how?

If you can answer this question you will be able to undermine the entire foundation of the criminal justice system, which is that it only makes sense to convict people for the crimes they intended to commit.

We don't convict people for acts they intended to commit which weren't crimes, and we don't convict people for actions which were not intended (except, on the cusp of intention, for a VERY FEW crimes which have really low intent requirements, and murder isn't one of them).

You're wrong about sentencing and conviction by the way.

You are only convicted for crimes you committed. That's why there are such rigorous rules for admitting evidence of past crimes, and it's why you can't be convicted for acts you haven't committed.

Once you've been convicted, when you get to the sentencing stage, the judge has the ability to sentence WITHIN A RANGE, and may consider a wide range of things. However, the law has already democratically decided the range as a reasonable punishment for the crime, so you're never going to get a sentence outside that range.

If you don't like the RANGE, petition your elected representative to change the range.

[blondeatlast]

264. Precisely. Isn't that what Hitler had in mind?

"Unfortunately for you, we have a criminal justice system which is..."
...organized around the principle of punishing people for the acts they intended to commit."

Excellent point.

The "deterrent" argument is male cow schist.

[blondeatlast]

263. First, it's quite wrong to link "retadation" and insanity.

Second, higher functioning developmentally disabled people are able to distinguish right from wrong. However, they are VERY easily influenced by others, hence the problem. They are also very easily led into confessing (see above point), whether they are actually guilty or not.

[Yupster]

182. He said it was self defense

I guess the jury believed him.

I didn't pay enough attention to form an opinion.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

203. He also killed the daughter of a prominent mob boss...

Or so someone told me. She disappeared and he's suspected in the killing.
DUckie

[youngred]

77. no arguments on his barbarism

but why the anger Carlos? how does more death solve anything?

[sleepyhead]

16. Yes, Padraig

The death penalty would reflect more on us than it would on him. We are better than that. Lock him up forever, throw away the key, but let's not use violence in the name of peace.

[Padraig18]

19. Exactly!

:thumbsup:

[Fescue4u]

223. Lets hope so

"reflect more on us than it would on him."

I hope that future crazy muslim snipers will realize that they will be caught and killed by US.

[jiacinto]

2. This post so far is telling

It shows how out of touch some DUers are with mainstream values in this country.

[AP]

9. The 10 states which execute minors are out of touch with the 40

which don't. (Actually, it might be 13:37.)

[jiacinto]

14. I don't think juveniles should be excuted

But I think the adult sniper should fry.

[Wonk]

23. Yours is pretty telling, too.

Implying that it's better for everyone to just adopt a herd mentality instead of being willing to stand for something.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

To teach people that killing people is wrong we kill people :crazy:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

211. Hey, a Nizkor cluestick practicioner!

That site kicks major @ss!

[Aidoneus]

53. It is indeed telling

This thread is most useful in order to keep tabs on the progress of Carlos' continued rightward drift. These days it is so swift as to be difficult to keep up with.. Keep boning up on the slogans and tactics buddy, you're doing great!

[jiacinto]

79. I was always tough on crime

My viewpoint has rarely changed on this issue since I came to DU.

[Aidoneus]

110. And you always did hold up both ends of a conversation

And now that I think about it, you also always did just love to put words in the mouths of those you bark at.

So what is it that is new for me to track? I just cannot remember now..

[jiacinto]

218. I don't put words into people's mouths

I respond to their points.

[youngred]

241. sometimes

[youngred]

91. who cares about the mainstream values of the country

when those values are barbaric and inhumane.

Honestly, fuck american public opinion on the DP. It is morally reprehensible. It's more telling about America that that is our "mainstream" opinion than on the consceince of DUers

[jiacinto]

100. Fuck wining elections then

Remember Willie Horton and Michael Dukakis? I did.

[youngred]

112. *yawn*

that's a strawman argument carlos. Nothing at all to do with this case, nice try though

[jiacinto]

224. It is true

Do you want the party to be identified as being "pro criminal?

[youngred]

238. No, It's not true

stop fearing the wrath of the the "public" forced on you by the media and look at the real americans out there. The party is not pro-criminal and that ought to be painfully obvious to anyone with 2.5 brain cells to their name. Let the repukes try it. i don't care. Sometimes I'd rather be right than popular.

[VermontDem2004]

247. Pro criminal?

Where are you getting your arguments from? Being against the death penalty is not being pro criminal. Quit using right wing arguments, that is like saying if you are against the Iraq war you don't support our troops or you support terrorism.

[blondeatlast]

265. OHFERKISS'SSAKE!

If it means we take the moral higher ground on the issue, then yes. Your "argument" presumes that the only issue in crime is deterrence. Life ain't that simple, Carlos--if you think it is, DU may not be the place for you.

If you ask me, the Dems have ALWAYS been stronger on crime prevention, we just call it something else; like social policy.

Edit: impassioned typing leads to errors!

[Scott Lee]

179. Is execution based on race and economic bracket a "value"?

If it is, we have some MAJOR fucked up value system, dude.

[jiacinto]

227. Well

If the sniper were white I would support his execution too.

[bloom]

294. Countries that have no death penalty

ANDORRA, ANGOLA, AUSTRALIA, AUSTRIA, AZERBAIJAN, BELGIUM, BULGARIA, CAMBODIA, CANADA, CAPE VERDE, COLOMBIA, COSTA RICA, COTE D'IVOIRE, CROATIA, CYPRUS, CZECH REPUBLIC, DENMARK, DJIBOUTI, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, EAST TIMOR, ECUADOR, ESTONIA, FINLAND, FRANCE, GEORGIA, GERMANY, GUINEA-BISSAU, HAITI, HONDURAS, HUNGARY, ICELAND, IRELAND, ITALY, KIRIBATI, LIECHTENSTEIN, LITHUANIA, LUXEMBOURG, MACEDONIA (former Yugoslav Republic), MALTA, MARSHALL ISLANDS, MAURITIUS, MICRONESIA (Federated States), MOLDOVA, MONACO, MOZAMBIQUE, NAMIBIA, NEPAL, NETHERLANDS, NEW ZEALAND, NICARAGUA, NORWAY, PALAU, PANAMA, PARAGUAY, POLAND, PORTUGAL, ROMANIA, SAN MARINO, SAO TOME AND PRINCIPE, SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO, SEYCHELLES, SLOVAK REPUBLIC, SLOVENIA, SOLOMON ISLANDS, SOUTH AFRICA, SPAIN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, TURKMENISTAN, TUVALU, UKRAINE, UNITED KINGDOM, URUGUAY, VANUATU, VATICAN CITY STATE, VENEZUELA


I would rather be in touch with them. If you want to be mainstream - why are you here?

[ulysses]

4. no

Wrong is wrong. And screw mainstream values, Carlos.

[jiacinto]

8. This is so telling

The sniper is an animal who deserves to die. Period.

I was leafletting for Congressman Van Hollen when he was shooting people in Montgomery County, MD.

This piece of trash deserves the death penalty.

[AP]

13. Recent crime victim, much?

Mario Cuomo said that he would want to see someone who killed someone he loved get the death penalty. He said, however, that he'd prefer to have a government that appealed to his best instincts rather than his worst instincts.

[jiacinto]

18. Yeah

But Crime is one issue where I have the strongest disagreement with most DUers.

[Padraig18]

22. We know.

:eyes:

[jiacinto]

26. Yeah

I just think too many people are too willing to stand up for criminals.

[AP]

34. What do you think of Cuomo's attitude towards the death penalty?

Also, I think if you want people to act like human beings, you treat them like human beings, even when you're punishing them.

[jiacinto]

38. I suppor the death penalty

Willie Horton and Michael Dukakis.

[AP]

56. The Pope doesn't. How do you feel about that?

?

[jiacinto]

61. I am not the pope

nt

[AP]

73. But you understand the Pope's objections, right?

And you understand what Cuomo is talking about when he says the government should reflect our best instincts, rather than our worst instincts, right?

[jiacinto]

75. I disagree with the Pope

nt

[AP]

98. But you understand the other side of the argument?

Maybe you don't.

[Padraig18]

39. False logic again

No one is standing up for criminals, but for civilization.

[jiacinto]

63. The sniper isn't a civilized person

nt

[Padraig18]

68. So we shouldn't be?

:eyes:

[youngred]

115. no one said he was

but would you lower yourself, and the every citizen of Virginia to the level of that animal by condoning murder in the name of the state?

[Yupster]

183. Not lowered to his level

We'd be killing a murderer after a trial. He killed innocent men and women. Big difference to me.

[youngred]

188. a murder is a murder

for whatever reason and wrong. I do not want that man killed in my name, he doesn't deserve death, he deserves to rot in prison and think about everything he did. He doesn't deserve this high profile trial which he thinks will make him famous, for whatever reason.

[youngred]

189. A murder is a murder, in this case both premeditated

for whatever reason and wrong. I do not want that man killed in my name, he doesn't deserve death, he deserves to rot in prison and think about everything he did. He doesn't deserve this high profile trial which he thinks will make him famous, for whatever reason.

[Muddleoftheroad]

214. Not murder

It is not murder to kill a dangerous animal that threatens the lives of others. Sad to say, that is exactly what he is. Put him in prison and there is no motivation for him to behave and not kill again or harm others.

[youngred]

239. Yes, it is.

I'm not saying he's not a criminal animal by any means. What I am saying is that the Death Penalty is Murder. plain and simple.

Murder def: The killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

put a man to death
plan it out and make it a spectacle like this

decry the person as an animal, subhuman or whatever and declare it ok all you like, it is still a murder. I do not want that man's blood on my hands. Put him in prison and let him rot, do not kill him. There is no motivation for him to do anything but try and get attention and let him make himself a martyr, which I would not have either

[Muddleoftheroad]

259. Have you ever known folks in prison?

I have, more than my fair share. As far as I can tell most actually belonged there, but didn't deserve to die. They are supposed to go there and serve their sentence. That's it.

But when you mix in murderers, it gets lots worse. What does this idiot have to keep him from killing again? He's already done it a bunch and no law or consequence has stopped him. Now he'll be in prison with a captive audience to his desires.

We kill him not for revenge, but to protect others -- prisoners, staff, guards, visitors, and yes, those of us on the outside, just in case he ever gets out.

[youngred]

286. Please

Some validity to that, but not enough to justify murder as he likely will never get the chance to again. Its not 100% guaranteeed, but its not worth state-sponsored murder to assure that IMO

[Muddleoftheroad]

292. Some validity?

I doubt seriously you are willing to lock up all such murderers in a way that they won't threaten anyone. After all, then we'd be infringing on their rights by locking them in cells without access to others.

What about the rights of others? What about the rights of other prisoners to live in relative safety? What about the guards who already have a risky life? What do they have to be needlessly exposes to murdering thugs? What about staff, visitors and the community at large, all threatened by this monster?

You need to get your priorities better in order.

[VermontDem2004]

248. Yes it is murder

How is it not murder? They don't accidently put the needle in his arm, they don't accidently flip the switch. He is a dangerous animal? I personally feel that animals are better for nature then humans, it is humans who done more that hurt this planet.

[youngred]

103. who's standing up for criminals?

all we are saying is the Death Penalty is wrong and should not be applied in this case or any other.

careful the broad brush

[prolesunited]

229. Well, you're obviously

with 'em or against 'em. If you don't want to fry them, you obviously condone their actions. :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

213. Another fallacy, this time the most overused of all

Straw Man (see, Wonk, I wield the Nizkor club too!)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Really. Do YOU even believe that sentence you just wrote is anything but BS overloaded rhetoric?

[blondeatlast]

266. Beg to differ, there, but okay.

[ulysses]

17. you're comfy making that call?

The sniper is an animal who deserves to die. Period.

What concept of justice - not vengeance, justice - would it serve?

[jiacinto]

20. Yes I am

He killed these people. In cold premediated blood. That animal and piece trash deserves to fry.

[Padraig18]

You're doing to him what * did to Saddam.

You're villainizing him.

[jiacinto]

28. No I'm not

He killed all those people. Period.

He deserves the death penalty here. This is the type of case that calls for it.

[Padraig18]

32. Yes, you are

You're doing exactly the same thing.

[jiacinto]

44. The sniper killed the victims

It's debatable whether Sadamm had something to do with 9/11. Not a clear case with Iraq.

But a clear case with the sniper.

[Padraig18]

52. No, no, no!

You deliberately distorted what I said. Why?

[jiacinto]

45. The sniper killed the victims

It's debatable whether Sadamm had something to do with 9/11. Not a clear case with Iraq.

But a clear case with the sniper.

[youngred]

118. Padraig didn't say anything about 9/11

why are you?

[ulysses]

31. BASED ON WHAT?

On what concept of justice (again, Carlos, justice and not vengeance - they're not the same thing) do you base the statement that "that animal and piece trash deserves to fry"? How would "frying" him serve justice?

[jiacinto]

35. It would give the families closure

It would also be the ultimate punishmet. I really can't believe that you are defending the sniper and sticking up for his rights.

[Padraig18]

43. I can't believe you're so contorting and twisting people's arguments. n/t

[ulysses]

how is "closure" a part of justice?

I really can't believe that you are defending the sniper and sticking up for his rights.

I'm not terribly surprised that you take my opposition to the death penalty as "defending the sniper" and "sticking up for his rights".

[jiacinto]

57. You stand up for the criminals at Camp X-Ray

So why doesn't this suprise me? You are more concerned about those terrorists than the victims of 9.11, so this doesn't surprise me at all.

[goobergunch]

65. We don't know whether they are criminals or not

A "competent tribunal," in the words of the Geneva Conventions, has not yet determined their status. All we have is *'s word.

[jiacinto]

69. Again

It's sad that so many DUers seem more concerned with the criminals' rights than theri victims.

I think this is the one big issue wehre I disagree with most DUers.

[goobergunch]

81. I understand where you're coming from

I believe that John Muhammad should get life in prison. I think that that's a harsher punishment than the death penalty. However, it's your right to disagree with that, and I respect that.

However, I would dissent that the people in Guantanamo are necessarily criminals. I say give them a fair trial, and if they are convicted, they're criminals and should be punished accordingly. But a fair trial must be held.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

70. I think I just have a different viewpoint on crime than most

DUers.

[AP]

78. You have a different viewpoint on PUNISHMENT, not crime.

And I'm not sure whether you understand that your views on punishment do little to alleviate the real problems with crime, and in some ways contribute to making the problem with crime worse. Do you want to live in a society in which the average criminal values life as little as your government?

[Padraig18]

85. Well-said, AP!

Those of us who oppose the death penalty are not 'soft on crime'.

[goobergunch]

87. I concur. See post #7. (n/t)

[Padraig18]

74. Which criminals at Camp X-Ray?

Some of them are plain victims of kidnapping.

[Wonk]

84. Criminal: someone who has committed (or been legally convicted of) a crime

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=criminal
Which of those are they ALL, Carlos, since you're painting with such a broad brush? Where's your evidence?

Suspect
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=suspect
n - the person being sued or accused
n - someone who is under suspicion

[ulysses]

89. I stand up for human rights.

That includes the rights of those accused or convicted of even the most heinous crimes. That includes the Camp X-Ray inmates, it includes the snipers, it includes the folks incarcerated a couple of miles south of me in the DeKalb County prison. I make no apology for that.

You've swallowed the rightwing spin on liberals and crime wholesale, and your recent experiences don't help.

[jiacinto]

97. I just think differently on crime

I think that too many on the left are unwilling to be tough on crime or do what's needed to be done. They are just too willing to blame everything on society, inequality, and other injustices.

This is the one major issue where I disagree with most people here on.

[ulysses]

121. no, you don't.

You're not even pausing to rationally consider left positions, but rather cariacaturing them and surfing an emotional wave.

[VermontDem2004]

249. I don't know what your view is on crime

But if you support murder as long as the government is doing it then I guess we do have different views on crime.

[youngred]

127. Straw man, and buying propaganda

since they don't have a trial we can't call them guilty (or would you rather reverse the inncoent until proven guilty standard?)

and don't you EVER fucking say that I or anyone here doesn't care for the victims of September 11th, that is disgusting, cheap and EXACTLY the argument being used by the republicans.

[blondeatlast]

268. Some of them may not be criminals, C.

But we may never know who really is and isn't under yours and Asscroft's system of justice.

[TexasMexican]

80. ...

I believe vengance is a legitimate part of justice.

The vengance that is wanted by the families of the victims should not be dismissed. Do you really think justice is served if they all feel that criminal wasnt punished appropriately?

[ulysses]

96. "I believe vengance is a legitimate part of justice."

I do not.

Do you really think justice is served if they all feel that criminal wasnt punished appropriately?

I do not believe that justice was necessarily *not* served if they all feel that way.

[TexasMexican]

114. if...

most people didnt feel that justice was served by the system, then more people would be willing to take the law into thier own hands.

You just cant totally disregard the needs and the wants of the people.

[ulysses]

126. you know that how?

You just cant totally disregard the needs and the wants of the people.

Justice balances the needs of society against the rights of the accused. Anything else and there *is* no justice, but a vigilante world. You ok with 300 million judges, juries and executioners?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

204. And this is America. Everyone has rights...

Even those in prison and those that are on trial or are about to be sentenced. If you were put on trial, you'd be demanding these rights, guilty or not. You're distorting arguments and being small minded. If you want prisoners to have no rights, move to China. I am actually a supporter of the death penalty in certain cases, but they have to have undeniable proof that person committed the crime. But I respect those that are against it. I'm against it right now because we're putting people on death row just because "Well, they charged him, there must be a reason." That makes me puke. Juries are idiots...and they are set up with people who don't know the law ON PURPOSE. Our criminal justice system is so screwed up right now, the Death Penalty needs to be suspended while they figure out something else.
DUckie

[AP]

51. We don't organize our criminal justice system around what's good for

families. We organize it around what's good for society.

If vicitims made the rules, we'd start looking pretty barbaric, and we'd probably discover that our entire society became debased. The government should set the example for acting like human beings, and human beings don't take the life other human being's. I mean, that's your point right? Killing is bad.

[youngred]

124. Are you willing to speak for all the families?

and their need for closure? Perhaps some of them do not want him to be "fried".

No one is sticking up for what he did or his rights. We are saying that the DEATH PENALTY, irregardless of to whom its applied, is wrong and should not be used.

READ what's being said Carlos, please

[blondeatlast]

267. There is no such thing, take it from one who knows.

I despise that word. For crime victims, it doesn't happen. Ever.

[youngred]

99. What does your lealetting have to do with anything?

I'm certain there are many people who were in the area and scared to shit as well and who don't share your revenge fantasy

[jiacinto]

102. I was in the area where he was killing people

putting my own life at risk. So I knew what it felt like. I am fron the DC area and the whole area was gripped in fear.

[youngred]

130. as am I Carlos

My Aunt lives in Chevy Chase a few miles from one of the shootings

A close friend of mine watched one of the ambulances carrying a victim to the hospital.

You aren't the only one who was there, nor is your personal experience of fear reason enough to put him to death

[jiacinto]

226. He is toxic waste

A filthy animalistic predator who deserves to die.

:nuke:

[youngred]

240. That is your opinion

I notice you did not have anything of value to say to add to the debate, all you are doing is reiterating your opinion. No logic, no argument, nothing....just BS. Come on you're better than that

[minkyboodle]

171. You weren't the only one

I was in seven corners the night Linda Franklin was shot and sat in traffic on the beltway going through checks for about 5 hours. Doesn't mean that I want to base the laws that govern our justice system on my fear or anger. It certainly doesn't give me the right to distort opposing views on this matter and lord my being there over them as if it is some sort of justification for basing criminal policy on bloodlust. My views on the death penalty are simple, the death sentence is the ultimate ending and therefore needs to be perfect. Can anyone convince me that our justice system is strong enough to fulfill these requirements?
Scott

[ablbodyed]

48. Thank you....

The death penalty is wrong. It satisfies only the lust for revenge. That's what got this country in the fix it's in. Blind hatreds and meanness of spirit by far too many people.
Is the guy a monster? Should he rot in solitary for 50 years? f course!!!!
For all those who support the death penalty, here's an idea: Pick, by lottery, several of you, take you to the death house, and have a contest where you describe all the reasons you want to see the guy die, then we all vote on the internet as th who has the best reasons and the winner gets to PULL THE SWITCH. Oh, and televise the whole thing from start fo finish. If you can live with it, than you shuld be aching to get the job.

[Joe the Revelator]

253. I would happily pull the switch

but only in this case.

[sujan]

5. yes

fry the fucker

[youngred]

10. No, why give the egotist any more fame?

the death penalty is always wrong, let this fucker stew in jail for the rest of his life

[Walt Starr]

15. I was once anti-death penalty regardless

I was young then.

I vote yes. Since we have a death penalty and it is used, Muhammed definitely deserves the death penalty.

I would be very pro-death penalty if a millionaire murderer actually had to pay that penalty. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear millionaire murderers can even be convicted, let alone pay a death penalty.

[ulysses]

so, Walt...

since you pretty much agree that the dp is largely meted out to the poor and working poor alone, how do you justify your support for it?

[Walt Starr]

37. If it's going to exist, I definitely support its use in the most heinous

crimes.

This is one that is incredibly heinous.

This man deserves no pity for the penalty he should face.

There can be no question as to his guilt.

There is no hope of redemption. There is no hope of reform. There is only existance should he not pay the ultimate. His mere existance makes this a more dangerous world.

He needs to be eliminated.

I do not support the death penalty for Malvo.

[ulysses]

59. ah, there's the rub

If it's going to exist...

In that statement you accept a deeply flawed and unjust system. Why accept it?

[Walt Starr]

82. Because we must

It is the system we have. We can work to change the system, but we must accept the system as it is. There is no way to change the death penaltly with civil disobedience. It exists, ergo, I support its use in the most heinous of crimes.

I subscribe to the notion that for some criminals, there is no hope and that society will be better off without them. So long as Muhammed is alive, he is a threat to society prison or not.

I also do not believe the death penalty will go away in my lifetime. I accept it as a fact of life for at elast two more generations in my estimation, and I concentrate on those areas I believe real change can be made.

In my opinion, fighting the death penalty is a losing battle right now. American society is not mature enough to accept a justice system without it.

[jiacinto]

90. Well

"In my opinion, fighting the death penalty is a losing battle right now. American society is not mature enough to accept a justice system without it."

That summarizes my viewpoint on it too, although I do think it should be used in some circumstances.

[Walt Starr]

108. Some would argue the lack of those necesities

would indicate a society that has matured beyond a point of needing a death penalty.

[ulysses]

104. yadda yadda - you've accepted it

What you're facing is both a moral and practical argument against its use. "We must accept that it exists and therefore use it" is not a rebuttal to that.

[Walt Starr]

120. That was not a rebuttal

I accept it and am glad it exists in cases such as this.

I take a practical stance on the death penalaty issue. It won't go away in my lifetime, so I see no point in it being an issue in politics.

[blondeatlast]

269. The war in Iraq exists and isn't going

away soon; does that mean you accept it and won't try to change the situation? What about corporate welfare? The minimum wage?

The national debt isn't going away in yours or my lifetimes, do you accept the tax cuts that are adding to it?

[youngred]

134. So if its not a winner then don't stand up for justice and right

How do you expect American society to become mature enough when some people are afraid to challenge the immorality and stupidity of this barbaric practice

[jpgray]

21. No--adding to the death toll isn't good for anybody.

He'll die eventually. Mainstream values need to be changed if this is the way they are.

[Darranar]

25. No!

No death penalty for anyone ever.

Not even Bush.

[jiacinto]

27. Again

It's sad how so many people here are more concerned about the sniper than his victims.

[Padraig18]

29. That's false logic.

How does it 'help' his victims, to kill him? :eyes:

[jiacinto]

33. Logic isn't the issue

Willie Horton, remember that?

Also it gives the families closure to know that their assailant has faced the ultimate punishment.

[Wonk]

40. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

[ulysses]

41. a question, Carlos

since you bring up Willie Horton again - are you concerned about this issue for electoral reasons?

[jiacinto]

50. That is part of it

But not all of it. I think that the sniper calls for it.

I support the DP in cases of clear premediation, when someone kills a cop, or a child. I support it for serial killers.

[ulysses]

132. taking electoral concerns into any kind of account

where the life and death of an individual are concerned is craven and, frankly, horrific.

[Padraig18]

49. Horse hockey!

Actually, the only studies conducted on the subject indicate just the opposite--- families never get 'closure', regardless of what the punishment is.

[blondeatlast]

273. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Did I mention: Thank you?

[VermontDem2004]

196. The ultimate punishment for me would be spending my entire life in prison

I would much rather be killed then spend the rest of my life in prison.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

205. Logic isn't the issue only to those who don't have any.

[blondeatlast]

272. There is no such thing as CLOSURE. God, how I hate that word!

[blondeatlast]

271. It doesn't, a friend was a victim.

[Dookus]

46. What's even sadder....

is how you smear those who don't believe that one more murder will improve this country.

It's fine to disagree with us, Jiacinto, but saying "shame on you" and saying we're more concerned about the sniper than his victims is over the line.

We can't do anything about his victims - they're already dead. NOBODY here supported their deaths.

Being opposed to the death penalty doesn't mean we care more about the criminal than his/her victims. That's inane. It means we don't think the state should have the right to kill people - a concept the rest of the civilized world agrees with.

Shame on YOU for being driven by bloodlust.

[jiacinto]

54. I am not "driven" by bloodlust

But I do think the sniper should fry.

[Padraig18]

55. That is 'bloodlust', by definition. n/t

[youngred]

135. Do you see ANYONE here

who has said they don't care about the victims. CARLOS READ WHAT WE'RE SAYING NOT WHAT YOU EXPECT TO SEE.

We are all in agreement that he is a monster and derves a strong punishment, some of us have conscience and morals enough to believe that further DEATH and MURDER are not the answer.

[PVnRT]

168. That's far too much to ask of Carlos, youngred

He would prefer to just spout off what he generalized in his head. It's far easier to deal with people you disagree with that way, just dismiss them as criminal-lovers who think murderers and rapists are all saints who should be worshipped, and that victims are useless trash who got in their way.

[blondeatlast]

274. Like they do over at . . .

nevermind . . .

[Darranar]

155. Strange logic there...

All i did was state my feelings on whether or not the sniper should get the death penalty. Even if we accept that that's showing concern for the sniper, how do you know how much concern I have for the victims?

[PVnRT]

167. Oh, Christ, will you give it up, Carlos?

Do you enjoy using the same absolutist bullshit debate tactics as the freepers?

"You're against the Iraq War. You hate America! You support Saddam!"

Give me a fucking break.

[blondeatlast]

270. I have much more concern for the victims. Sheesh, Carlos do you EVER think

before you type?

Knowing he will "fry" is cold comfort, IMHO. I've been there (an indirect victim), and I argued against the DP quite forcefully. It didn't help and it doesn't help me live down the tragedy of my friend.

[GOPBasher]

47. Yes he should die.

I'm for the death penalty in principal. My problem with it is that the system is so tilted against the poor, because their representation always sucks. So, poor people are often wrongly convicted and put to death; this has been proven with recent DNA tests. If it can somehow be administered fairly, I'd be for the death penalty.

However, in the case of the sniper, we know he's guilty, so yeah, he should fry.

[jiacinto]

60. I agree with you

I am glad that at least someone else here is not more concerned about the sniper than his victims.

[VermontDem2004]

200. I would much rather see the Sniper

spend life in prison then get let off the hook with lethal injection. I get tired of you putting words in people's mouth who say nothing along those lines. I remember telling you about how the Iraq War I was not necessary and you say I am defending a murderous tyrant. That is right wing logic and I am getting tired of it.

[blondeatlast]

275. As are we all.

"That is right wing logic and I am getting tired of it."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

215. Jesus H. Christ on a crutch.

Do you REALLY believe being against the death penalty means being more concerned with criminals than with victims? Yes or No, please. It's a simple question with a simple answer. Inquiring minds want to know.

[PVnRT]

216. This is how these people

discredit all who disagree with them - just keep shouting lies and slogans until everyone else believes them.

[TexasMexican]

220. "Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick"

Yes.

[Scott Lee]

58. Should Malvo die, while the Seattle killer of 48+ people lives?

Hint: Malvo is Black....Seattle killer is White.

This is why I'm against the death penalty.

[Walt Starr]

64. I think the Green River Killer should be put to death too

Heinous crime, he admitted to it. Give him a ride on a gurney and a needle in the arm.

Society will be better off.

[AP]

125. As long as juries sentence people, white guys like Durst and the Green

River Killer who kill people who don't matter (like prostitutes) and will not get the DP (and in Durst's case, won't even get convicted), while people like Malvo and Mohammed will get the DP.

The system is skewed towards giving the harshest punishment to the poorest people with the worst lawyers.

We can tolerate errors like that when the difference in punishment is measured in time served.

Are people comfortable in tolerating errors and disparities when the difference is between life and death?

Anyone who can tolerate those disparities should aske themselves who the real barbarians in our society are.

[fujiyama]

162. Why

did they stop using the electric chair? I find it odd that people would support the DP, yet also support death by lethal injection.

The way I see it, lethal injection seems a little too tame. If society's goin to kill people, they may as well do it with a bang. Death by lethal injection is really letting the criminal off too lightly. After all there are people with diseases that cause chronic pain that want to die, and many don't get off this painlessly.

The reason why I oppose the DP is that justice is never perfect. The way I see it, nothing really makes up for what this psychopath did.

I understand why Carlos is annoyed by many DUers. They are making holier than thou arguments against the DP, which don't work. An interesting thing is that eventhough the EU may have outlawed the DP, but many public opinion polls in European nations still show significant amount of support for it. The reasons are obviously many fold, usually having to do with the philosophy of eye for an eye, vengeance, and another thing people don't like beiog mentioned -- the the western prison system with all its comforts. This is a different topic, but I think if perpotraters of such heinous crimes were locked up in solitary confinement, without access to media and entertainment, and recreation; if they were being fed gruel, and not given any medical care, in dim light for the rest of their years, people wouldn't be as much in support for the DP. Actually I think vengeance would be served and the risk from society would be lessened as well. Of course some far leftists would find it wrong to not treat murderers well.

[ulysses]

164. ...

If society's goin to kill people, they may as well do it with a bang. Death by lethal injection is really letting the criminal off too lightly.

Here's a thought - the oldest male relative of the victim gets to perform the execution and can choose between garrotting the (suitably bound) prisoner, slitting his throat or crushing his head, repeatedly, beneath his feet.

I mean come now, if we're going to get all bloodthirsty let's have the whole hog! Go medieval! Enough of this pansy-ass, liberal "cruel and unusual" crap, LET'S MAKE 'EM PAY!

Actually I think vengeance would be served

Vengeance is not a part of justice, but thanks for playing.

[fujiyama]

175. Vengeance shouldn't be

part of justice in an ideal system, but I do believe it has a part to play, at least to most Americans. I'm not sure what other purpose there in punishment other than vengeance - well maybe personal turmoil or inducement of guilt, but I believe that's secondary. After all, either we punish, or rehabilitate, or both. Assuming some criminals have no rehabilitative value, all there is left for these people is punishment, and a lifetime sentence of prison is definetely punishment.

[youngred]

166. holier than thou?!?

So what if the majority don't like it? The majority also cannot identify which party is more conservative and couldn't tell you who the chief justice of the supreme court is. The majority isn't always right.

Vengence is not justice and never should be.

as for the palatial nature of prison, try it and then get back to me on that.

[fujiyama]

177. All I know

is that many prisoners still do have access to news of the outside world, have access to reading material such as books, magazines, and newspapers, and even TV. They also get decent meals, obviously depending on which prison this is.

I think crimes like murder deserve a harsher punishment than that, but the DP is a mess.

Hey, go ahead and bash the people. If that's the way you want to get people to oppose the DP, you have your work cut out for you, and should be working on abolition for a very long time. People don't like being told that they are wrong or stupid or evil or bloodthirsty, especially when they are generally decent, law abiding people. Either you can understand a person's stance on an issue and try to persuade it with some rational arguments, and reach a reasonable compromise, or you can keep "fighting".

[youngred]

192. I'm not bashing anyone

and I would think the idea of not putting to Death (you know death, at the end of life, when you cease to be alive) for a system that is Racially and socioeconomiaclly unjust. One that is a complete failure as a system of detrrence to crime. One that violate TWO ammendments to our nations founding charter. One that is inaccurate to say the best given recent advances in technology. One that is punishes murder with murder. One that makes all citizens (since we make up this govenrment, and their actions are undertaken in our name) murderers. would consitute your "rational arguments" tell me where there is anything at all irrational or "bashing" about that?

I said nothing about the crimes committed. Nothing about my desire to not see these people locked away forever. Nothing about them not getting the attention that many of them seek through death penalty appeals and arguing over them, playing games with the courts for stuff to do. None of that did I say, but you just assumed that I didn't care and was too busy making irrational arguments and wanting to feel "holier than thou"

This from a poster who several posts ago.
The way I see it, lethal injection seems a little too tame. If society's goin to kill people, they may as well do it with a bang. Death by lethal injection is really letting the criminal off too lightly. After all there are people with diseases that cause chronic pain that want to die, and many don't get off this painlessly.

Of course some far leftists would find it wrong to not treat murderers well.

Which is of course rational and civilized discourse and refraining from bashing your opponents view.

[fujiyama]

193. We probably agree

more than we disagree. If you read my posts carefully you will realize that I do oppose the DP.

I just believe that those prisoners that commited very harsh crimes don't deserve to see the light of day, and that their prison conditions do indeed serve the purpose of punishment. That means no ammenties such as entertainment, books, newspapers, recreation, etc, and really crappy food, as well as complete isolation. That would be proper punishment. Either that or hard labor.

As for what you said about the DP, you're absolutely right. I'd add to that, the fact that the DP is very capricious, making it much for likely for the defendant to be put to death if the victim is white, over those that aren't.

[PVnRT]

169. Well, hell

Let's bury them in the desert, cover their testicles in honey, and set fire ants on them. Might as well go all-out barbaric, eh? I bet people like you would even shell out $50 to watch it on Pay-Per-View.

[fujiyama]

174. Sorry

Shoulda used the /sarcasm.

In case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic. I even stated why I oppose the DP, but I suppose my post was a bit strange in itself.

[PVnRT]

176. Gotcha

This is an emotional topic for me...now I get it. :thumbsup:

[Yupster]

184. Some states

give the criminal a choice of how they want to go.

[Hippo_Tron]

62. I'm quite pro death penalty, not exactly sure in this case...

I haven't been really paying attention to what's going on with this. I want all of the facts before I make a decission.

[blondeatlast]

276. Perhaps you shouldn't weigh in, then?

"I haven't been really paying attention to what's going on with this."

Just a thought . . .

I don't mind an informed pro-DP argument, but you already admit your ignorance in this case.

[jiacinto]

76. well I have to leave Kinko's and find dinner

talk to you all later.

Maybe I should avoid crime threads at DU since it's obvious I have such a different opinion than most people.

[goobergunch]

86. See ya Carlos

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

94. On this issue, your position and mine are not so different

Seeya Carlos.

[jiacinto]

106. Bye

nt

[Wonk]

109. I hope you take the time to read the "fallacious logic" links I posted. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

217. I wouldn't hold my breath

Guy seems allergic to logic or something. (Gee, I hope I'm not pulling a straw man myself) No post of yours deserved an answer.

[Agathias]

111. I say 'Yes'

Perpetrators of premeditated serial murder need to be removed from the gene pool. No 'rehabilitation' is sufficient to atone for their crimes against humanity.

[Nikia]

128. No, I oppose the death penalty

I do not think that it is up to any person to decide who should live and who should die. There is the question of guilt. Only the clearly guilty should die. I do not think that confessed killers should be killed as they are, at the least, helping the investigation move more quickly. I suppose if there are several witnesses, guilt can be well established, but why should public killers be executed and not those that killed in private? There is the question of inequality. The rich will never be executed. In this case, if he were rich, his lawyer would be trying to prove his insanity or at least some other reason that he should be shown leniency. Finally, how do we know that anyone is beyond reform and redemption. Some people may be boyond that, but other equally or more brutal people may be reformed and find redemption. Humans cannot judge another's soul. Yes, the justice system must judge people all the time, but to judge whether or not someone should be killed should be beyond proper, moral human justice.

[ShaneGR]

129. Yes, those bastards shot a little kid, people in their backs....

Both of em.

[VermontDem2004]

198. And the best thing to do for something like that

Is to let them off the hook with lethal injection.

[Superfly]

131. Yes, and the sooner the better.

I don't like sharing the same air with him.

[ulysses]

137. THERE'S a rationale for killing someone.

I don't like sharing the same air with him.

[Superfly]

139. It's called being facetious....

But I still support the death penalty for this guy.

[ulysses]

140. oh, ok. irony makes it better.

:eyes:

[Superfly]

141. No, what will make it better is

when this guy is put to death.

[ulysses]

143. How?

No one has yet explained to me how this guy's death will make anything better. Care to try?

[Superfly]

147. Yeah, I'll feel better knowing

one less trigger happy murderer is off of this planet. And I am very pleased that Virginia permits capital punishment.

[ulysses]

149. here comes the clue bus - you feeling better isn't justice.

Care to try again?

[Superfly]

150. To me, it is.

I hope this guy burns in hell, ASAP.

[ulysses]

152. and that's why we're a society of laws

and not of men.

[Superfly]

156. And that's why the "society" here in VA

has the death penalty for murder.

[ulysses]

157. democracy has its perils

including the danger that a sufficient number of people in a given area will buy the usual canards about the death penalty (it provides "closure", it's a deterrent, etc.) to legalize it. One is left to hope for evolution.

It's still wrong. Flat, goddamned wrong.

[Superfly]

158. To you, maybe,

but I think that if you take a life in murder, then your life is forfeit.

BTW, it's an effective deterrent for the convicted person. He won't be murdering again, anytime soon.

[ulysses]

160. you be you.

but I think that if you take a life in murder, then your life is forfeit.

Hey, while we're at it, why don't we just hand over the accused to the victim's kin? Nothin' like a good ol' lynchin' to soothe the soul!

BTW, it's an effective deterrent for the convicted person. He won't be murdering again, anytime soon.

Miraculously, imprisonment does the same thing.

[Superfly]

161. You're against it, I'm for it.

Peace.

[ulysses]

163. erm, human lives are at stake.

No. Politics isn't a game. Neither of us is going to convince the other so sleep well if you're headed to bed, but peace? No.

[PVnRT]

172. How is it a deterrent again?

How are you deterring him from committing crime again? He's dead - he hasn't learned anything.

Given your bloodlust, maybe you should petition the state to allow you to carry out the execution. Maybe it will make you feel better. Then we can rename the Department of Justice to the Department of Making Superfly Feel Better.

[ShaneGR]

142. Perhaps their murders tell the story

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/15/shooting.victims/

[ulysses]

145. appeal to emotion.

How would justice be served by executing this guy?

[SahaleArm]

202. What's Justice?

the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

DP deals with the 'assignment of merited rewards or punishments' portion of justice. As long as DP is valid under law then it fits within the definition of justice. The question of right or wrong boils down to individual and collective morality, a reflection of current American society.

[FDRrocks]

136. No

Pretty much all my reasons for opposing appear elsewhere on this thread.

[Terwilliger]

144. No, but Rush Limbaugh shuld be killed

let those druggie conservatives know they can be silenced

[ulysses]

148. sad thing is

that your post will probably be pulled as advocating violence against someone, whereas folks can advocate violence against someone accused of a crime all the livelong day.

[blondeatlast]

277. Rush did commit a crime.

Hey, why not DP for one, DP for all? From solicitation, to drug crimes, clear up to serial murders?

It would be alot cheaper--just don't allow appeals. Talk about deterrent!

[roughsatori]

146. I am AGAINST the DP in ALL cases

Every time we as a society condone the killing of another human we are teaching our children that violence is the answer. I don't think it is, though I know some at DU, and many in the USA call for violence to solve problems.

If my opinion is out of the mainstream that is fine. The USA is an anti-intellectual, sexually obsessed (in an unhealthy prurient fashion), violent culture of greed. I hope I never become a full part of the USA mainstream.

[TexasMexican]

151. sometimes it is the answer.

People just need to teach thier children in which instances it is appropriate, and in which instances it is not.

[blondeatlast]

278. This is something I shouldn't have to "teach" my children.

Killing people at random with an AK-47 is wrong, so is using a needle to do the same.

Please point out my faults in logic--I dare you.

Edit: Deleted Google reference. (heh, heh)

[VOX]

153. It's tempting, but, no, the DP solves nothing...

It brings back no victims, it doesn deter a damn thing, and it's costly to boot.

I can understand victims' families wanting revenge, and I hope that I'm never in that terrible position.

But I personally could not cold-bloodedly execute anyone, nor do I feel right about allowing the state to do it.

(I do not equate the premeditative aspect of the DP with self-defense. If someone were trying to harm me or my family, and if there were no alternatives in those moments, I would would do *whatever* was necessary to protect my kin.)

[blondeatlast]

279. I have been in that position, and I am still anti-DP.

I thought and prayed long and hard on the issue, but I believe that I came to the right position. It won't bring my friend back, nor "closure" (have I mentioned that I hate that word?) to any of the "indirect" victims like me.

[Doomsayer13]

154. yes

While I agree that our justice system is fucked, in a clear cut case like this where the malicious intent and the cruelty of the crime are clear, I support the death penalty.

[Zero Division]

159. I've changed my opinion on several controversial issues...

throughout my life, one of the few things I've consistently held onto is opposition to the death penalty in all cases. I've simply never seen an argument that could justify it (whether it's the "ultimate penalty" argument, the "it prevents murderers from murdering again"--I recall rebutting that one a while back on this forum, or any of the myriad of pro-death penalty arguments out there).

I know damn well just how unpopular my point of view on this is in this country, so like many others I unfortunately feel that it's going to be a long, long time before any of our politicians can express such a view without being significantly damaged in the court of public opinion.

I will refrain from directing condescending remarks toward those who share a different opinion on this matter, and I wish that some of them would do the same.

[PVnRT]

170. Robert Heinlein was dead-on about it

Basically, he said that executing someone completely devoids the punishment aspect of the sentence. There is no punishment - they are dead. They will never learn, they will never feel shame for their actions, they will never be able to be reformed - they are dead.

It's like killing a dog the first time it shits on the carpet - what has it learned? Nothing, and you're out one dog. Pretty stupid, actually.

[Freddie Stubbs]

173. Thank God our party's nominee for President supports the Death Penalty

[Selwynn]

191. Don't thank god.

She gets enough bullshit blammed on her every day, no need to add another shitty thing that isn't her fault to the list.

[LoneStarLiberal]

178. No with rights.

I don't believe in capital punishment. Partially because of the common miscarriages of justice I've seen here in Texas (ask any African American in Tulia about Texas justice) and the sexual glee most Texans get over executions, I do not think anyone should be executed.

The fundamental fact that the state, be it the Federal government or the state government, when given the option of murdering its citizens, is sending all of us a message whether we are guilty or innocent or convicted or indicted or charged or just walking around free and clear: I can take your life.

The message is this: Justice may not be done, but you will die if I say so.

Unless you can assure 100% accuracy in implementing capital punishment, which we have seen we cannot, there is only one outcome: The state murders innocent civilians. Pure and simple. State murder.

[Yupster]

185. The presidential candidates?

Anyone know which ones are for and against the death penalty?

[Freddie Stubbs]

199. All of the serious candidates are in favor of it

[BootinUp]

187. I am changing my mind

I have always supported the DP in the past for heinous, planned killings. But I am second guessing myself lately on the whole thing. As I get older and see more miscarriages of justice I have realized what a crapshoot the whole thing is.

So No

:beer:

[Selwynn]

190. the "deservedness" of death is irrelevant to me.

I don't base my actions on whether or not someone else "deserves" my action. I base my action on what I believe to be just, how I want to live, the values I want to reflect, and the kind of society that I believe is best. The death penalty is not compatible with any of those reflections for me, therefore deserving or no, I cannot condone execution as a form of punishment for this man or any other.

I know it comes from a movie, so it will seem a little cheesy for me to quote it, but I am going to anyway: "Some who live deserve death, and many who die deserve life - can you give it to them? Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

[RebelOne]

195. I'm not against the death penalty, but he should rot in jail.

Death would be too easy for him. He should suffer for the rest of his life in jail.

[blondeatlast]

280. For those who think I'm "soft" on crime, that is this "indirect" murder

victim's opinion as well. Let his fellow inmates take care of the coward (and they do). He won't die, but he WILL suffer.

Who says I don't want vengeance??? Carlos???

[VermontDem2004]

197. I voted No

I believe that the country doesn't have a right to decide who lives and who doesn't, if I was criminal facing the DP or life in prison, I would much rather have the Death Penalty. Spending your entire life in prison is much worse.

[neebob]

206. Intellectually I'm against the death penalty

but I have this thing about psychopaths that prevents me from caring when one of them gets it.

[Demonaut]

207. Damn, I meant to vote yes

If a cause exits for the death penalty them this is it.

[MaineDem]

219. What he is convicted of is reprehensible

But I feel the death penalty is wrong.

[Fescue4u]

221. No, he should be given counseling and set free

/sarcasm off

Of course he should put to death.

Some people don't deserve to live.

[jiacinto]

222. Exactly

And it's sad that some DUers feel the need to rush to this piece of trash animal's defense.

[Fescue4u]

231. yeah.

I would have expected a few oddball no's, but not nearly so many.

Interestingly many posters seem to base their objections on the basis that the death penalty is meted out more to minorities than others.

While that may be a reasonable objection in other cases, in this situation it is not reasonable, unless one actually believes that Mohammad would have received a lesser sentence if he was white.

I don't believe that for a second, if fact most people automatically assumed he WAS white before he was captured, indeed its been theorized that he was able to elude capture longer BECAUSE he was black (and didnt fit the profile)

[youngred]

243. Oy

what are they teaching for reading comprehension in schools these days?

Look.

John Allen Muhammed is a monster.
John Allen Muhammed is vile
John Allen Muhammed is a criminal
John Allen Muhammed is a Murderer
John Allen Muhammed is a piece of egotistical trash

John Allen Muhammed does not deserve the DP. NO ONE DOES. OUr opposition to the DP stems partially from the racial disparity in the system, not in this case necessarily (though the case of Durst does raise some interesting questions in comparison). We are saying the Death Penalty IN GENERAL is wrong, and for that reason we also oppose THIS (potential) execution.

Read what people are writing before you decry their position please

[Fescue4u]

244. You want better for Mohammed?

Than his victims were entitled to?

You sure throw out alot of we's and our's. You have a mouse in your pocket or do you represent everyone who's against the death penalty?

Mohammmed didnt deserve the death penalty UNTIL he performed the death penality on innocents.

Protecting that sona bitch from anything less is coddlying him.

btw, I do believe, as many other on this forum that executing Mohammad will reflect on our society. It will reflect that we refuse to tolerate people such as him.

[VermontDem2004]

246. You want better for Mohammed?

The better thing and worst thing for Mohammed is to spend the rest of his life in prison, putting him to death is letting him off the hook. Plus whether you feel he deserves to die is your opinion and you are not god. Who are you to judge if someone deserves to die, plus the government has NO right to decide who lives and who doesn't.

[Fescue4u]

285. Thats the only valid argument IMO

The only valid argument that I see against putting this piece of trash to death, is that life in prison would be a worse punishment.

Thats a fair argument. However things do change. As an example Charles Manson, an animal in his own right was originally scheduled for death. However his sentence was changed to life in prison, not on the merits of his own case, but when the death penality was banned for a certain time. Now that animal is eligible for parole and it is concievable that he will be a free man again someday.

As for me, society will be better off with the trash in the ground, and to spare us from having to hear him interviewed for the next 60 years.

And yes Virginia, the government DOES have the right to decide who dies. Always has and always will.

[youngred]

289. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong and Wrong.

Charles Manson will NEVER get parole. Do you honestly believe ANY parole board in their right mind would even concieve of letting Manson or Muhammed go? You must be crazier than they are if that's what you believe. Life without Parole would be the sentence I think is most fair. Which effectively cuts off that part of your argument.

No, the Government does NOT have the right to decide who lives and dies. Going back to the philosophical basis of our government's founding we have the philosophy of Locke, Hobbes and other social contract theorists (Jefferson lifted directly from Locke in the Declaration, and the framers used many of his ideas as well). Their social contract that man leaves the state of nature to come to the government for PROTECTION. When the government stops protecting them the government has broken the social contract and you have the right ot leave. Killing someone is about as far as one can get from protecting them. Therefore the government has no right to decidde who lives or dies. Throughout all things the ONLY thing you are guaranteed is your own life, and execution and murder deny those rights. Your assertion is complete bullshit and the kind if idea that allows murderous dictatorships to exist.

[youngred]

287. that's some pretty hardcore hatred you got going there

I don't want better for him of course not. That's a ridiculous argument, barely even worthy of the word. I don't represent everyone who's against it, but I am representative of the opinions of many here who hate what he did, but still cannot find a legitimate reason to execute this or any man. Especially in the face of lies, and accusations of you and others who distort the postion to make a cheap debate point becuase you cannot logically, morally or socially justify the barbaric practice of excution.

All it reflects on our society is that we are no better than the murdrer. That murder is ok when you do it to someone who "deserves" it. Who are you or I or anyone to play God about who deserves to live...but Gee that argument does sound very familiar...Oh Yeah! It's exactly what John Allen Muhammed said when he was killing people. Way to go!

[youngred]

242. NO ONE IS DEFENDING HIM

how many times must we say that?

We are saying the Death penatly is wrong. CARLOS READ PLEASE. I IMPLORE YOU

[blondeatlast]

281. Carlos, please find me one place on the board where anyone

defended this lousy excuse for sewer crawling slime. If you can, I will apologize for any offense you may have taken from my posts.

I have read and considered every post and I KNOW you can't do it. Call it a dare.

[jiacinto]

225. Shocked

It still surprises me to see so many DUers sympathizing with the sniper.

[prolesunited]

228. I'm against the death penalty

As are many who post here.

How does that make us people who sympathizes with the sniper?

[jiacinto]

230. You don't support his execution

That's the answer. This is one major fault line I have with DUers.

[prolesunited]

236. How much clearer can I be?

NO, I don't support his execution. I don't support the death penalty and I'm not going to sit here and list a series of exclusions if that's what you're waiting for. In fact, I didn't support the execution of McVeigh either.

So, you're major fault with DUers is that some of us don't condone killing? We don't support executing people and we don't support murdering people in an unlawful and unjustified invasion.

Sorry if we're not bloodthirsty enough for you. :eyes:

[Aidoneus]

232. stop lying, Carlos

.

[AP]

233. Separate CRIME and PUNISHMENT. I believe people should be

punished for their crimes. I don't think the government has any business killing people unless it's in self defense and you have your back up to the wall and your democratic principles at stake.

When you have someone in custody, and you've convicted them, and you have total dominion over them, I don't think your backs up agains the wall, and I don't think any of your principles are at risk of being lost. In that situation, the government has the upper hand and should behave with the responsibility that that sort of power demands.

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

235. I really don't care about the links

I think I what say. And this is how I feel on the issue.

[Wonk]

237. "I think I what say."

I think that speaks volumes about you. I hope it becomes a new cliche response to you whenever you start doing your Rodney Dangerfield routine.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

You can lead a horse to water, etc...

[blondeatlast]

282. Where? Where? Where? Show me the bastards! Give me

a DIRECT quote where someone has shown Mohammed an ounce of personal sympathy.

C'mon, show me (a murder "victim" for whom you have so much "concern") an example.

[bloom]

295. If you are shocked -

you haven't been paying attention.

[okieinpain]

245. you guy's have got to be fu**ing kidding. if anybody deserved

the death penalty it's these two nut cases. hell I put the needle in their arm my damn self. how could any of you guy's actually want to feed these two worms for the rest of their lives.

no wonder we're getting our asses hand to us.

:~(

[Joe the Revelator]

251. I've never wanted two people executed more

Sometimes the death penalty can serve a purpose. Keeping the population of 3 state scared to leave their houses and go downtown coupled with the cold malice with which 19 people were killed calls for a punishment worse then being allowed to sit on your ass in a jail-cell

[VermontDem2004]

252. That is my problem

I don't believe there is a god but if there is no one on this planet is god so you have no right to decide who lives and who doesn't and the government shouldn't either. You don't like him for killing, but yet you said you would kill him yourself. Are we going to start cutting off people's hands who steal?

[ulysses]

256. nope. not kidding.

Contrary to the spin certain folks like to put on the issue, no one here wants to take the guy home and make him cookies either. But the death penalty is wrong.

[REP]

250. Fuck Yes

The death penalty isn't about teaching anyone anything. It's a punishement; hence, it is called the death penalty, not the the death take-this-as-a-warning-you-other-psychotic-assholes. Psychotic assholes are not so easily warned or apt understand these complex lessons.

This man has done nothing to show he can be redeemed; what he did was so vile there is no apt punishment. The most fitting punishment is death; it is also more humane to end a sick life than to cage it until it ends.

The Durst case was a horrid miscarriage of justice. Unlike some, I do not see that the remedy for one legal blunder is to commit another.

[VermontDem2004]

254. How is it a punishment?

You are letting him off the hook for killing 19 people. If I were to spend 30-40 years in prison or spend two weeks in prison and then be killed I would much rather spend two weeks in prison and be killed.

[REP]

257. How Is It Not Punishment?

I don't believe in torturing people and driving them mad(der) with lifelong imprisonment. As I said, death is the more humane punishment.

[youngred]

290. What a strange world we live in

where murder is considered more humane.

Guess it was more human of him to use the sniper rifle than if he's just chopped them up slowly :eyes:

[Romberry]

255. If anyone deserves the ultimate punishment...

...it would be this man. I just don't believe we can show killing is wrong by killing. The state should lock him away forever.

[Loonman]

258. Not sure....he certainly is a despicable individual

A piece of human garbage....but I'm not sure about capital punishment.

[Kamika]

261. Absolutely. Fry him and charge admission

You ppl who voted no, most of you wouldn't if it was one of your relatives he had shot

[blondeatlast]

283. Been there; still don't believe in the DP.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

288. good for you!

Really a testament to your strong adherence to your principles, and I am truly sorry if someone you love was murdered.

[youngred]

291. No, i don't think i would actually

because how does another death honor the life of my loved one? WOuld I want to see them punished, absolutely! Would I want to see them executed, absolutely not. I will not have the blood of all those murderers on my hands

[angiew]

284. Affirmative

Yes, he should. I belive that the crime of willfull murder should be punishable by death. Period.

[mvd]

293. I voted no

I'm against it in all cases. Yes, I feel emotion after hearing about all of these heinous crimes, but it is barbaric and I don't care about if a murderer sits there in prison. He/she deserves it. In this way I'm not caring about the murderer. I'm concerned about the system being completely fair when the life or death question is asked - and I think the only fair way is life in prison without parole - except in certain cases where it's HIGHLY likely the murderer won't be a threat anymore. Then parole can be an option. So I'm tough on crime in other ways. Like I want longer sentences for child molesters and rapists.

[shimmergal]

296. Live or dead,

we should examine his brain to see what makes a killer like him "tick."

Unfortunately, this isn't done with convicted murderers. Actually, we can't learn this from a dead inmate, so we should keep unrepentent killers alive and study them.