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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:24 PM
Original message
Why IS health insurance so expensive?
Someone asked, on another thread, the above question. Here's my take:

Fraud: Healthcare is one of the three biggest areas of fraud along with worker's comp and auto insurance, and it's fraud committed by the healthcare industry rather than patients that's the main problem.

Waste: Healthcare is expensive, partly, because there's a large amount of waste inherent in the process. Fixing efficiency is hard. Fixing prices, easy.

Price Fixing: Principally by pharmaceutical companies with the assent of paid-for enablers in Congress and Administration. They'll tell you it's because of the massive costs of R&D...it's a lie. Much of the necessary research is done by universities, often at the public expense. Drug companies spend about four times LESS than they say they do on R&D, but spend TWICE as much on advertising, issue ads, and campaign contributions.

The Uninsured: Hospital administrators feel perfectly justified in passing the cost of those who can't pay (43 million and rising) onto those who can (the ever-shrinking insured).

Corporate Inefficiency: The average for-profit HMO spends FIVE TIMES MORE on "administration" than does the supposedly inefficient Medicare program.

Executive Overcompensation: Multi-million dollar rewards going to CEOs and other execs despite blatant mismanagement and neglect.

Corporate Rip-offs: Medicare HMOs are an educational example. Since HMOs are essentially insurers with medical staff, like insurers they make money by saving money. It seemed counter-intuitive, then, that for-profit HMOs would want to spend millions to encourage the least healthy, and therefore most expensive, members of society (seniors) to join their Medicare-alternative plans. They did so because Medicare paid them to.

The idea was that Medicare would pay the HMO 95% of the average cost per patient, and if the HMO spent less to provide services to that patient they got to keep the difference as profit. The caveat was that, like Medicare itself, the HMO was not allowed to select risks; they had to take the good and the bad. Of course that didn't stop many HMOs from trying to subvert the system in both legal and illegal ways.

The biggest problem, however, was that the legislation enabling HMOs (and now other types of plans) to become Medicare providers, made no effort to ensure that the HMO couldn't opt out of their contracts once the relatively healthy 65 year olds they were enrolling became unhealthy 75 and 85 year olds. Which is exactly what many have done.

The upshot of all this is that these medical corporations were allowed to make large, short-term, profits from a previously unreachable market because of massive subsidies from the federal purse. When the profits started to evaporate, our federal watchdogs let them renege on their obligations, leaving millions of seniors, once again, at the mercy of predatory drug companies at the worst possible time. It is of no small importance to note that the new Medicare drug plan is, essentially, a re-run of this successful scam; they are simply going to pay the "medi-corps" even more tax dollars to make the fraud profitable once more.

And last but not least:

Crappy Insurers: Insurance companies across the board have faced heavy losses over the last 20 or so years, largely through poor management of risks. Rather than make the effort to fix their loss ratios, many companies (including the "big names") used profits from their investments to mask their shortcomings and keep their stockholders happy. As the stock bubble burst the insurers reacted by sharply raising premiums. In other words, they've decided to let the public pay for their management and investment mistakes.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I thought it was because
nothing sells like Life itself, and because every Doctor I know has to have the latest BMW.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. And they like those drug company-sponsored "Training Trips"...
to the Carribean...

Hell, can you blame them? Who do you know would go through 8 years of what med students/interns go through for a Honda Civic, basic cable and a 500-sq-ft. duplex? <sarcasm>
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. One word
Profit. As long as health care produces a profit, it'll cost too much. That includes prescription drugs.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. How then do you explain my point about corporate inefficiency?
Last time I checked Medicare was a pretty big government program with lots of pesky "regulations and requirements". Why, then, does Medicare spend around 3% on admin, while the average for-profit spends 15%?
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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
53. this is only a guess...
But, the Medicare program existed to funnel money to the providers. So, much of their overall budget is simply transferring money from the gubment to the health care providers. I guess that they would not need a lot of administration.

The providers, however, have to jump through lots of medicare hoops simply to provide care. After you see the doctor (in a hospital), the orders have to be transcribed, the the medical chart has to be updated, then quality might audit the case, data have to be gathered on all the charts for submission to (guess who) medicare. There is a lot of staff that has to help, and everyone except the doctors and nurses are admin.
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Let me put it another way.
Why is it that 97% of the money that comes in to Medicare is spent on actual healthcare while HMOs only spend 85%? Wouldn't have anything to do with profit, would it?
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dpibel Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. Help me out here
You say that Medicare has low administrative costs because it exists to "funnel money from the gubment to the provider." Doesn't at least a little bit of health care happen in the midst of the funneling?

I'm really stuck on this concept: In your first paragraph, you posit the funnel theory, but admit (at least implicitly) that Medicare has low administrative costs. Two questions:

1. How does this square with your description of the plight of the providers, who must battle through all that paperwork "for submission to (guess who) medicare"? They produce allllll that paperwork, send it to Medicare, and Medicare--what?--throws it in the trash? They must spend some time looking at it, doncha think?

2. Are you actually saying that the doctors chart, the charts are transcribed, there's QC, and submission of paperwork only for Medicare?? I used to work for a medical insurance company, and their claims files were filled with chart notes, and submissions of various and sundry forms. Not to mention the fact that, ummm, doctors chart so they can keep track of patients' treatment. So you're kind of blaming Medicare for something that's just a cost of doing business, aren't you?
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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. I'll try
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 09:24 AM by apsuman
First, let me say that I am flying a little blind here. I do not know the admin cost (as a percent of overall budget) for Medicare, or for any one specific HMO. I am merely taking for granted that the HMO is worse than Medicare.

I offered my reply (as a guess mind you) that the purpose of Medicare is to provide insurance, as such they have a large budget because most of it is nothing more than money that is given to the healthcare providers. Comparing Medicare admin costs to an HMO sounds good because they both deal with heathcare, but the HMO actually does something (or does not do something) for the money. I guess what I am trying to say is that Medicare does not provide the services, they are just a pass through. As such they would mathematically speaking have to have a low admin cost.

If you provide care and accept payment from a provider you have to jump through that provider's hoops. Medicare being the biggest as well as government controlled has the most regulation. My point here was not that medicare is the only insurer that has hoops but that your care when you see a health care provider does not stop with the provider. There is a buch of ancillary staff that have a piece of the pie. Many people in this thread think simply because the the doctor has a high salary that drives teh cost of healthcare. My point is that because of these hoops there are many 13 other invisible people that involved in your care that you do not see.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. Charting also is necessary for
Joint Commission accreditation for hospitals - nothing to do with insurance, everything to do with good medical records and good patient care.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
65. Price manipulation and cheaters
I worked in the business for a while... trust me...it can be done.

The problem with Medicare and the IRS is the lack of funds to police the industry.

A nebulizer in New England can go for $500
A nebulizer in Arkansas can go for $250
A nebulizer in California can go for $700....

See the discrepencies?????

Note...I guessed at the prices...I can get actual figures for you...but the disparity would be the same...
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. I'm confused. Did you mean to reply to me?
Because if the problem is that Medicare lacks the funds to police fraud then surely their costs would be higher. I'm saying that, contrary to public opinion, Medicare is more efficient than the average HMO at delivering healthcare.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Just the opposite.
When INSURANCE reform was passed in California, it brought down malpractice rates by 8 percent....
a greater savings than even the MICRA laws created.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I'd love to see a comparison with Vet Care
Although people love their pets, there is often a limit as to how much they are willing to spend to keep Fido kicking, so vets may maintain an artificial ceiling on costs to keep Fido alive, which does not apply to humans. I wonder if anyone has done a study of this?

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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. That's just silly
Saying that being in something for a profit makes it too expensive is like saying that since Ford and GM are into auto manufacturing cars are too expensive.

While Government regs to contribute mightily to the cost, and inefficientcy adds costs too, jury awards make the cost of malpractive excessive.

I work in a not for profit foundation that includes a hospital and several satelite clinics all in Kentucky. I was having lunch with the CFO one day and he told me that Kentucky's constitution prohibits placing caps on jury awards, probably because of miners' influence back in the days paltry black lung awards. So much so that there are only 2 or 3 companies that will write group health insurance in Kentucky. Further, the CFO was telling me that there is a group of heart clinics in the state that have many offices in Kentucky and (at least one) in Southern Indiana (Evansville?). The group practice requires all new patients from Kentucky to first be seen in their Indiana office so that in the event of a lawsuit, they can fight to have the case tried under Indiana laws.

The cost of malpractice insurance is so high that some hospitals are opting to self insure.


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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. Non-profit isn't a solution by itself
I live near one of the top ten largest medical facilities in the country. It is non-profit, supposedly run by Catholic nuns, and it has the most expensive medical care in the state. They have pushed out all their serious competitors but one within a hundred mile radius, put satellite clinics all over the northern 2/3s of the state, have sweet deals with the insurance companies that let them charge their exorbitant prices and we all get to pay for it. They build at least one new building or "research facility" every year so that they don't appear to make too much money.

IMO, we need a "not for profit" health care system with strong cost controls and we need it soon.

What gets me is that the providers and insurers don't see how their unholy alliance will eventually run them all out of business because so many people/employers are on the verge of being unable to afford their health insurance. The fewer people who buy insurance, the more they pay to support the system. Pretty soon it will all tumble to the ground like a house of cards.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
63. I agree that profit is a problem
The reason that profit is immoral for health insurance and care is because people are willing to pay whatever price is given in order to save their own lives or those of their children. When most other companies experience increases in costs on their end of things, they look at ways to cut costs or even may have to take a loss for a while. That is because demand for their product will decrease if they increases prices too much. Insurance companies can raise prices whenever they want. People will still pay the premiums. Insurance companies still make lots of profit.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. States need to have more power
in fighting the abuses of the healthcare system.

Get enough scrappy AG's in the fight & we could have some real reform.

GREAT POST, BritDem!
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The Florida AG
has approximately 465 cases of Medicare fraud on his desk right now.
He has collected about $12 million in fines so far. This is a repub surprisingly. It's on www.stpetetimes.com

Unsurprisingly, there are no jail terms involved. The doctors and HMOs are raping the system and when they don't get thier way, they say they will move to another state.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because demand is inelastic, and the supply is finite
meaning the providers can charge pretty much whatever they want.
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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. yeah, but...
Insurance providers often negotiate a reimbursement to the care provider even before you ever go to the doctor.

So if you go the to doctor and he charges $100 for the office visit, you pay a 20$ copay, that other $75 is not necessarily paid by the insurance company they might have a negotiated reimbursement of $60.

The only people that get a completly unadjusted bill are the uninsured, and non-health insurance companites (auto, home, etc.) that have policies to cover accidents.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nice post and all of it's true.
If we had a governmental single payer system like Canada, we could cover every person in this country with health care for half of what it costs today per person on the for profit private insurance and HMO system.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. I would argue against your number one reason a bit and consider it
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 03:46 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
newsspeak to a certain degree. For instance (and this is an area of policy on which I have worked and attended public hearings as well as worked on drafting on the legislative end) In California back in thelate 80's comp reforms were passed. A group called the California Workers Comp Institute produced studies claiming fraud was a factor in up to 50% of work comp cases. The study included scads of anecdotal evidence but the actual quantifying was based on insurance estimates.

Laws were drafted funding special task forces in the DA's office and regulations were drafted REQUIRING carriers to forward ALL suspected fraud cases to the DA. A reporter from a Northern California paper who had been VERY critical of California's benefit system then did a series of investigative reports after receiving an ONSLAUGHT of letters by those legitimately injured who had been accused at one point during their cases of fraud (carriers had the right pre-reforms to delay and investigate practically indefinitely) What she found was suspected fraud in less than 3% of cases and ACTUAL convictions for fraud POST reforms in less than 1% of cases. It is really a shame that her articles are not available online. She won awards for them and the research was impeccable...she went through THOUSANDS of cse files over MONTHS to produce this article...again, she had started out BIASED against her OWN conclusions.

I would suggest your LAST reason in the greatest reason ...I would further suggest that the MAIN reason insurance ALL INSURANCE is so expensive is because there is ABSOLUTELY no political will to reform the manner in which insurers do business and keep records in the pblic interest...they are allowed to shield far too much information as "work product" or "privileged."

on edit: OOPS one last point...competition actually DRIVES costs up in this industry since if party A opens an MRI facility on one corner and party B opens an MRI facility on another corner...they need to keep those machines "hot" in order to profit which does NOT lead to fraud per se but to OVERUSE. Some doctors like to claim that if they don't order certain tests they are setting themselves up for malpractice but I have been around this whole game long enough to have known brilliant diagnosticians who needed only to LISTEN to their patients for five minutes and ask the right question to reach the correct diagnosis (pre-MRI's and other technology)
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Interesting point, but
I was really suggesting that fraud by the PROVIDERS rather than the public was the problem (e.g. doctors charging for tests that weren't done and so on). The public are generally much more honest than the insurance companies give them credit for.

I do agree that my last point is among the most important factors (hence the "last but not least" preface). I also agree about the lack of accountability, and thanks for adding that.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:02 PM
Original message
As far as charging for tests that WERE not provided
there are a couple distinctions....the scam corps that FEED off fraud i.e. medicare fraud and the hospitals that are SO sloppy they duplicate procedures, tests and supply billings esp for inpatient care BUT I would also caution that sometimes the regs and fee schedules for tests allow for individual billing versus "bundling" billing..so there IS an element of confusion that contributes to this perception as well...not arguing your point just deepening it a bit. :D
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. A few reasons
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 03:40 PM by pnb
Physicians negotiate higher fee schedules with private insurance companies to make up for the money they don't make, or even lose, through paying Medicare and Medicaid lower fee schedules. This obviously gets passed on to the insurers.

In addition, regulations that past governments have passed on behalf of medical associations add to the high price. These include limiting the number of people who can become physicians thereby keeping their supply very low. In addition to this, mid-level providers should be able to provide more simple services than they are currently and they would do so at a lower price as well. This is not a direct insurance cost but an actual physician fee that gets passed on to the insurance companies and then ourselves.

In addition, there is always much money wasted any time people get to pay from a huge "pool" of money as there are no individuals to basically complain about the price. This also why it is so easy to get away with Medicare fraud.
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CoolerKing Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. another reason:
Americans are increasingly more prone to sickness and health problems due to obesity and other lifestyle choices. The LA Times had an interesting article yesterday about employers mandating enrollment in "healthy lifestyle" programs. Pretty interesting stuff.

Of course, what the article didn't point out was corporate America's role in promoting obesity and unhealthy lifestyles through advertising. But, hey, who's counting?

One interesting fact: an estimated 5% of all insured employees account for almost 50% of expenditures. That's from the article. I don't know where that stat came from originally.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-healthcosts17nov17,1,2977077.story

Mind telling your boss how much you weigh? How about explaining why you missed your last doctor's appointment? Frustrated with years of skyrocketing health costs, a growing number of employers are relying on an innovative tactic to contain them: nagging — and sometimes arm-twisting — employees to get healthier.

The companies are asking employees to report such things as detailed eating habits, how much alcohol they drink and if they made their last checkup or filled their prescriptions on time. Some are hiring "health coaches" to design individual health programs for employees; the coaches then call or even stop by work as often as once a month to check up on their progress. Others have begun screening for diseases themselves, offering mammograms and cardiac stress tests at work.

Although employers have for years used limited health-management tactics, such as smoking-cessation programs and discounts at local gyms, benefits experts say these expanded health programs are now entering the mainstream.

So far, most of the programs, known as health and disease management plans, are voluntary. But a small number of companies are already jumping to what may be the next step — penalizing employees who either don't join the health-management plans or who do but fail to make enough health improvements. Others are pondering whether to ban holdout employees from the company's health insurance plan altogether.
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NewGuy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. 3rd party payer
Anything that is bought by party one from party two and then paid for by party three is going to be expensive. The quantity being used is artificially high and the standard cost control inherent in any exchange system are gone. Normally, if I want an item and the cost is too high, I forgo the item. If enough people do this it drives the cost down.

Imagine if movies, meals, cars, anything else were done this way. I decide I want a new car, the salesman agrees and the car provider insurance company (or medicar) pay for it. How often do you suppose this transaction would occur?
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SeattleDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:17 PM
Original message
explains why healthcare costs so much
I've always believed this to be true - good analogy.

Of course, this explains why health care costs so much, which then in turn, causes insurance premiums to rise... It's a vicious circle.

Yes, when the end user is shielded from the true costs of care, the costs rise. When the end user is not necessarily the decision maker, the quantity used goes up, particularly when the person recommending the care stands to profit from its provision, and when the end user's share of the costs is minimal (i.e., copays).

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Delivering health care through capitalism creates inherent contradiction.
The object of good health care is to consume LESS of it. Health care is best when people need less of it. However, markets are great for delivering more, and better things to people, not fewer things.

Consider polio. Polio is the last disease we've cured. Why? Because there's no economic incentive for the drug industry to cure a disease. They have an economic interest in treating diseases. They need the disease to exist to make money. How did we cure polio? Through the March of Dimes. Everyone had to get together and operate outside the capitalist market system to find a cure.

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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's an excellent point.
...
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. AP, that is an EXCELLENT counter-argument to...
...the usual RW nonsense that profit-driven healthcare comes up with more cures. Thank you.
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NewGuy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
62. The object is to consume what is needed
That may not mean less. Capitalism helps to insure that what is used is what is needed by balancing demand and supply. Supply normally follows demand not the other way around. Advertizing attempts to create a demand, but I doubt it would be very successful in the health industry.

March of Dimes did not find a cure for polio. They raised money to help fund the research being done by the pharmeceutical companies. The economic incentive to cure a disease is that the company makes the profit of selling the drugs for the cure.
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. And once they've cured the disease?
You've completely missed AP's point. It is in the economic interest of drug companies to alleviate the symptoms of disease, NOT to cure it. In addition, the drugs created should form addictions so that when a doctor tries to reduce the dosage the resulting deterioration of the patient/victim (due to misinterpreted withdrawal symptoms) will encourage the doctor to re-establish the drug "therapy" at former levels. When will people learn that corporations are AMORAL entities that have only one principal directive: profit.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Because they are not regulated
Until the federal government steps in and puts serious regulations on all of the insurance companies, they're going to continue to gouge, take huge profits, and essentially ration healthcare (which, ironically, is the RW's ridiculous argument against nationalized healthcare).

Most of our elected officials--on BOTH sides of the aisle--find it much simpler to just take the hefty campaign donations from Hartford, Connecticut and turn a blind eye to this huge problem.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Not regulated?
where in the world do you get the crazy idea that insurance companies are not regulated?

And the RW's argument that healthcare will be rationed with nationalized health care is not a rediculous argument. It is unquestionable fact.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. And it's not being rationed now?
44 million uninsured would say something different.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Hell, they even ration it to those who ARE insured.
Tried getting approval for lab tests, x-rays, or (heaven help you) surgery lately? Healthcare is being rationed by desk jockies with no medical training. How very reassuring (not).
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yet going to a nationalized
system will suddenly eliminate rationing? Well, it will not.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. If anything gets rationed
It would be for the last months of life, which is where the greatest costs lie. Extraordinary life saving measures add much to the total health care costs. Like being on a respirator for years on end just because that patient is insured.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Great
so then it will be up to the government to determine who lives and dies when rationing out health care. Thanks, but no thanks.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Do you think Mrs. Schiavo would be alive today
if she didn't have money? It sure beats corporate cronies having sway over your life.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. First thing I thought of too Camero
A person may spend $ 3 million on healthcare the last year of his life and not even be aware of it. That could be more than the total amount of money he made in his entire life.

I believe single-payer is the only way to go, but we can't afford to do everything for everyone in their last year of life, especially as more and more life-extension treatments are invented.

Anyone know how other countries handle this problem?
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Oh? And you know this how?
Just curious.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. How do I know?
When you have a limited supply (health care), and virtually unlimited demand (customers with free access to health care) you will have rationing. Period.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Um, no....not "period"....overly general statement.
But keep trying. This is entertaining.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Find for me a single country
with nationalized health care that doesnt ration care.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
70. And the U.S. rations care by
making it unaffordable for some people.

I'm uninsured now, because the fictional construct of "group insurance" makes health insurance sky-high for the self-employed. If I were to sign on with Blue Cross, they would charge me much more and give me lower benefits than they give business customers with multiple employees to insure.

They act as if there are two separate companies, one insuring the groups, and another insuring the self-employed, and yet, it's all the same company, presumably operating under one accounting system.

I'm healthy, but I'm over 50. This gives an extra push to my rates.

So what is the result? I am truly faced with the "real" costs of my health care, and this makes me such a careful consumer that I am in danger of missing out on needed preventive care and diagnostic tests, simply because I can't afford $100 for an office visit.

If I get one of the pathetic policies for the self-employed, I will be paying big bucks per month ($200+), have at least a $1000 deductible, and THEN have a 20% copay. If I stay healthy and just have my usual diagnostic checkups, I will be paying at least $2400 for NOTHING. NO BENEFITS from my $200+ per month, becauase I will have not met the deductible. If I get really sick, $1000 and 20% of whatever outrageous prices hospitals are charging these days, plus still having to keep up my monthly premiums will keep me in hock for all eternity.

It's easy to pontificate about the joys of private health insurance if you're a) young and cheap to insure, b) wealthy enough to afford whatever they're charging, or c) lucky enough to have a generous employer FOR THE TIME BEING.

Everyone else is screwed.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. there's no "limit" on the supply of health care
and the demand is not "unlimited", but the facts won't stop norcom.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. There is not a limit?
Really? There is "unlimited" health care resources?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Yep
The medical industry will provide as many services as you can pay for. No one has ever died because a doctor ran out of services.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I found that out years ago
When I tried to get wisdom tooth surgery covered. They wouldn't even cover it even though my doctor said it was necessary to maintain my overall health. The person who denied it was a triage nurse.

That was before there was a right to appeal. Which is scarcely comforting because there are no real appeals even now.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Unquestionable fact....HAHAHAHAHA...oh, that's rich.

And no, their profits aren't regulated. Medicare is slowly being sliced and diced and privatized (especially this latest bill), and the new EMTALA regulations are slowly gutting that safeguard act, too.

This is something I know more than a little about...so save your rightwing, regulation-phobic spew for somebody else.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. You didnt say
regulate their profits. You made a blanket statement that insurance companies are UNREGULATED. That is false.

And if you think that health care will not be rationed under a nationalized system you are living in fantasy land.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. *yawn* Okay, I'll throw you a rhetorical bone.
I work in healthcare law, and specifically on issues dealing with Medicare, EMTALA, HIPAA, and so on. So, yes, perhaps I should've been more specific--I wasn't implying that there are no regulations whatsoever on insurance companies, but those regulations are NOT on profits. That really doesn't invalidate my point at all--if anything, it shows just how much more regulation is needed.

And I did not say that I am in favor of FULLY nationalized healthcare, but I absolutely think we need to go in that direction. The system we have now sure as hell isn't working. Most of the conservative arguments against doing so are easily debunked, and I think you know that.

But please do go on...continue with your RW talking points. I'll just be over here on the phone, fighting with my HMO one more time over some needed tests (actually, that really is what I'm doing this afternoon).
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. A sure sign that it's RW talking points
is the way norcom insists that he's right, and anyone who disagrees with him is "ignoring reality/insane/stupid/etc" (pick one or more)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. If it is an unquestionable fact then please do PROVE IT
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. here ya go
In Canada, Rationing Health Care
http://www.sunspot.net/business/bal-universal111703,0,7067439.story?coll=bal-business-headlines

In Canada's public-health system, which promises free, equal-access care to all citizens, medical resources are explicitly rationed.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. The article still creates the false impression that they ration /WE DON'T
In Canada's public-health system, which promises free, equal-access care to all citizens, medical resources are explicitly rationed. For the country as a whole, that works -- Canada spends far less on health care, yet the health outcomes of its citizens are generally as good as those in the United States.

Despite Canada's lower health-care spending, patient outcomes in a number of areas, including cancer and heart disease, are similar. Overall, life expectancy in Canada is 79.4 years, compared with 76.8 years in the U.S, the OECD said.

Making a product unaffordable IS rationing...The article also fails to take into consideration the infrastructure in place at the time Canada created their programs versus the infrastructure in place here in the US currently..another big factor.

BTW, this is an article NOT a study.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. That article is from a RW rag
that thinks Medicare should be destroyed. Check out their editorials.

"Democrats warn that, if adopted, the GOP-plan would mean the end of "Medicare as we know it." But that's the whole point. The Great Society program is woefully outdated and inefficient. It pays too much for some services, too little for others. Doctors are increasingly turning away Medicare patients unless they pay extra. "

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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. Enforcement of that regulation comes down to the whim
of the state's Insurance Commissioner. If California's Chuck Quackenbush is an example to go by (which he is) the regulations don't mean a whole heck of a lot. By the way, the US is now officially 16th in quality and coverage of healthcare worldwide; every country ranked above us has nationalized health care. Care to offer another "unquestionable fact"?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. You left out:
Medically unneeded treatment, but legally needed to cover the doctor/hospitals butt so some lawyer can't second guess them.

Increaded prices to be able to pay for malpractice coverage.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Florida just passed malpractice reform
with the promise that rates would drop 20%. Instead, insurers are asking for a 21-25% INCREASE in premiums. It only slowed the rate of increase by 7%. This is obviously not working.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Thats a CUT!!!
In the world of government budgeting, a reduction in an increase is a cut! So hey, it worked!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. No it's not, it's newsspeak
In 1992 voters in California passed a INSURANCE REFORM package..it rolled BACK rates 8% across the board ..THAT IS A CUT.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. That's not a cut, moran
It is still increasing when it was promised that rates would go DOWN.
Classic doublespeak, Mr. Orwell.
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Norcom Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I was being sarcastic
And your right. Unless the ACTUAL COST goes down it is NOT a cut.

Now, concede that if a program gets an increase in spending, but less than was projected the program has NOT been cut.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. It's a cut
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 04:23 PM by camero
when you index it to the cost of living and inflation. Health care has been going up at almost 10 times the rate of inflation. Malpractice has not.

Malpractice Insurance, on the other hand has definitely gone up.
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. Don't blame the lawyers.
Blame the AMA which is allowing incompetent doctors to continue in practice. There really aren't as many frivolous lawsuits out there as we are made to believe by the media. By definition, if a judge or jury (of ordinary people) decide that compensation is due, the suit was NOT frivolous. Without trial lawyers like John Edwards, for example, we'd still be driving exploding Pintos, with no seatbelts or airbags, dressing our kids in flammable nightclothes, and drinking scalding coffee without warning. Not my idea of a good time...
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. We have too many lawsuits though I believe
I've been in four class-acion suits and consider each of them to have been frivolous.

I'm a stockbroker. I met with the state NASD Director. He told me that if I haven't been sued yet (I haven't), I'm not ethical or good, just lucky.
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The White Rose Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. It's simply too easy, and inaccurate to blame lawyers
for the level of malpractice in the healthcare industry, which is what the current Misadministration is trying to do. The former head of Kaiser estimated the number of deaths in US healthcare due to medical malpractice at 400,000 per year! And that's just deaths. Perhaps we have too many lawsuits because there is TOO MUCH MALPRACTICE!
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. At one time, every single OBGYN in the entire state of FL
had been sued for malpractice. Are you going to tell me that ALL of the OBGYN docs in an entire major state were bad docs? I rather suspect a distorted legal system.

Hey, We have all seen the ads on TV from the lawyers advertising for people to use them to sue. I remember one ad about births that was really offensive to me. It was almost begging people to sue if the baby was not absolutely perfect.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Friend who's a OBGYN
stopped delivering babies. Just does gynechological work now. Just too expensive getting automatically sued everytime something goes wrong.

He's especially aggravated with teenage mothers who may be pregnant in the first place because they drink or take drugs. Then they don't follow advice during pregnancy. Then if something's wrong with the baby, they sue. And then they don't pay their bill anyway.

I believe what we will see is our very best students will more and more go into law school instead of medical school. Better to be the one getting the settlement instead of paying it. For a while maybe foreignors will still be attracted to come here and be doctors though.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
55. insurance
The insurance companies and drug companies are owned by the Repubs. Can't tell me any different. Drug costs could be lowered some by not inundating us with ads on T.V. God knows how much that costs. I am really angry about it. I am on Soc. Sec. income and last month I had to pay $215.00 for 4 pills. I can't pay that each month so I will just do without.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. It used to be illegal
To advertise a controlled dangerous substance (which is what prescription meds are). This is mostly responsible for the Oxycontin craze and the like. And they do raise the cost of health care, which is why repubs allowed it to happan.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. drugs
Mine is not a controlled substance. It is for osteoporosis. So many women have it we are prey for the drug companies.
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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Yes, but...
I am not (in this thread) going to discuss the evils of the Durg companies or capitalistic health care or any of that stuff, I only have one thing to say:

Drug companies have programs for those of limited means/fixed incomes to buy at a discount certain drugs. My wife's grandmother has some perscription that costs her $600 a month, we got the paperwork together and gave it to them. We do not know, but suspect that they did not fill it out and send it in.


I will see if I can got more information about the program to post here.

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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
71. If you don't work for a very large corporation, health care is sky-high.
I am fortunate that I work for a very large corporation. And my health insurance, including dental and eye care, is only $48 per month. But I am close to retirement age and am going to have to continue to work full time for a while just for the insurance.
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apsuman Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. not really $48
You mean to say that the cost the company passes on to you is $48.

Clearly the company is carrying most of the cost.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. I have to buy my own health insurance
for my family as a small business owner. We pay over $ 700 per month for crappy coverage.

Last time I mentioned that, someone called me a freeloader for not covering my few employees too like I was just some kind of geyser of gushing money.
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cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
76. The Europeans are laughing at us!!
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 09:59 AM by cryofan
The ordinary working schlep in Europe pays a fraction of what the majority in the USA pay. And yet we let our political and media elite trick us into laughing at the jokes Jay Leno tells about "cheese eating surrender monkeys", while we continue to virtually enslave ourselves for healthcare. And EVERYONE in western Europe gets health care, at least in almost all the countries there.
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tarheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
80. Jonathon Turley at George Washington University
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 10:37 AM by tarheel
wrote an excellent article about this earlier this year. HE hit the nail right on the head.


http://www.jonathanturley.com/Articles/Turning_patients_into_hostages.htm


Its a good read. Check it out. I think the article was printed on January 6, 2003.

(edited to add the date of the article)
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