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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:15 PM
Original message
Pilot error to blame in Wellstone crash: NTSB
Probe: Pilot to Blame for Wellstone Crash
2 hours, 11 minutes ago Add U.S. Government - AP to My Yahoo!


By LESLIE MILLER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Pilot error caused the plane crash that killed Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., and seven others just before the 2002 election, federal safety officials said Tuesday. They recommended tighter scrutiny of charter airlines.

The twin-propeller King Air A100 carrying Wellstone, his wife, daughter and three campaign workers stalled when the flight crew slowed it too quickly on its approach to Eveleth-Virginia Municipal Airport in northern Minnesota on Oct. 25, 2002, investigators told the National Transportation Safety Board (news - web sites). The charter plane lost altitude, veered sharply, sheared off treetops and crashed 2 1/2 miles short of the runway, killing all aboard.


"The flight crew did not monitor and maintain minimum speed," NTSB (news - web sites) Aircraft Performance Group Chairman Charlie Pereira told the board.


Interviews conducted after the crash revealed shortcomings in the proficiency of pilot Richard Conry, 55, and co-pilot Michael Guess, 30, investigators said....

More: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031118/ap_on_go_ot/wellstone_crash_7
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. did they hold some sort of Seance......
and get the pilot to cop to the truth?

Now, it wouldn't have been a cut fuel cable or something that led to the lack of maintaining minimum speed, right? Noooooo, that would be Murder!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Any proof?
They do have proof. Do you?
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Well, explain just how that could work. I am a professional pilot for 41
years and I can't figure out a way to "cut a fuel cable" (what is a fuel cable?) that wouldn't prevent a takeoff, let alone a 40 minute flight.

By the way, here are some crashes involving politicians for a few years.
Politicians killed in plane crashes

(CNN) -- This is a list of prominent politicians killed in plane crashes
in recent years:

October 16, 2000: Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan (D). Carnahan, his son and
an aide were killed when their small plane crashed in bad weather in
Missouri. According to Reuters, Sen. Paul Wellstone's death was eerily
similar to the circumstances surrounding the October 2000 plane crash
death of another Democratic Senate hopeful, Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan.
His plane crashed in bad weather in that state killing him shortly
before that year's election. He was elected after his death and his
widow was appointed to take his seat.

April 19, 1993: South Dakota Gov. George Mickelson (R). Mickelson died
along with seven others when a state-owned airplane slammed into a silo
during a rainstorm in Iowa.

April 4, 1991: Pennsylvania Sen. John Heinz (R). According to AP: A
fiery plane-helicopter collision 11 years ago killed U.S. Sen. H. John
Heinz III and showered flames on children in a playground. Heinz, a
three-term Republican and heir to the Heinz food fortune, died along
with the two pilots of his chartered plane and two pilots in the
helicopter who were attempting to see if the plane's front landing gear
was down and locked in place. The plane's captain had radioed that an
instrument light failed to confirm the gear was in place.

April 5, 1991: Texas Sen. John Tower (R). Texas Sen. John Tower, his
daughter and 21 other people, including NASA astronaut Manley "Sonny"
Carter, Jr., were killed in a commuter plane crash near Brunswick, Georgia.

August 13, 1989: Mississippi Rep. Larkin Smith (R). Pilot error in hazy
conditions was ruled the probable cause of the plane crash that killed
U.S. Rep. Larkin Smith and his pilot, according to a federal report.
According to AP: The National Transportation Safety Board report
indicated that pilot Chuck Vierling, who was not rated to fly on
instruments, probably lost control after encountering conditions that
required them. Vierling, 58, of Gulfport had expressed concern about the
haziness before leaving, the report said. Vierling had flown Smith to
Hattiesburg on August 13. On the return flight to Gulfport, the Cessna
152 crashed into woods near New Augusta in southeastern Mississippi.

August 7, 1989: Texas Rep. Mickey Leland (D). Rep. Mickey Leland, a
Texas Democrat who chaired the House Select Committee on Hunger, killed
when plane crashes during a trip to inspect relief efforts in Ethiopia.

September 1, 1983: Georgia Rep. Larry McDonald (D). McDonald was killed
when Korean Air Lines Flight 007 was shot down by a Russian fighter.

August 3, 1976: Missouri Rep. Jerry Litton (D). Litton was killed along
with his family in a plane crash in the northwest part of the state on
the evening he won the Missouri's Democratic gubernatorial nomination.
He was en route to a victory celebration.

February 14, 1975: California Rep. Jerry Pettis (R). Pettis died when
his plane crashed into a mountain near Beaumont, California. His wife,
Shirley N. Pettis Roberson, replaced in the House five days later.
"People come up to you, with little pieces of memorabilia about your
husband, and they mean to show their deep regret in losing him," Pettis
Roberson said in a telephone interview from her home in California. "I
had to steel myself against tears, because I thought if I cried now, I
would cry forever."

October 16, 1972: House Majority Leader Hale Boggs, D-Louisiana and Rep.
Nick Begich, D-Alaska: Both were killed when their plane disappeared
over Alaska.

December 8, 1972: Rep. George W. Collins, Illinois (D). Collins was
killed when a United Airlines jetliner plane crashed on approach to
Chicago's Midway Airport. Forty-four others also were killed. Collins'
widow, Cardiss, succeeded her husband in the House.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
So, 5 of these 11 incidents involved Republicans. About as close to the expected stastical norm as possible for a small sample. I am a liberal Democrat and I trust Bush and his gang of thugs about as little as it is possible to do, but screaming 'murder conspiracy' about every goddamn thing makes us look like idiots, no different from the loony wingnutss who tried to pin murder/drug dealing, etc. on President Clinton. Let's not do it.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well-said.
Some folks have let this whole "BFEE" thing blot out logic, and it does make us alook ridiculous when we prate on about these insane conspiracy arguments. :eyes:
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks...now I am still waiting to hear some reasonable explanation for
how long it took to get some interceptors scrambled on 9/11. THAT is something with far more potential and hasn't been addressed by FAA/NORAD/Bunnypants, et al.
:grr:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Heinz & Tower
The two biggest Republican threats to Papa Bush, investigators of the banking scandals (S&L, BCCI) and Iran-Contra (Tower Commission), allies... coincidentally crash on consecutive days in '91. Heinz was considering a presidential run, Tower (a drunk who'd failed to get the Pentagon appointment) was writing a book... Teresa Heinz, interestingly, then married Kerry (collector of a vast amount of BFEE dirt).

Boggs: Dissident member of the Warren Commission. Had begun to publicly questioned the report. Plane never found.

Fascinating.

So, are we ready to consider assassination as a possibility in any of these cases? I have never screamed "murder conspiracy." I know not to rule out potentially valid hypotheses in advance of inquiry, let alone definitive evidence.

Assassination is a known and frequent cause of death among politicians. Not as mysterious as you're making it out to be.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. And what about the anthrax attacks...
Targeting four Democratic senators (not just Daschle and Leahy, also Kennedy and Levin)? Is this not prima facie enough for you to say: someone wanted to intimidate the potential opposition and/or change the majority so badly that they were willing to kill for it?

Assassination and accident are both possible hypotheses; both have often occurred. But the types of evidence required to verify are different. In the case of assassination, timing is also evidence. And the timing for the Wellstone death could not have been better: early enough to keep his name off the ballot, too late to run an effective campaign.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. The pilot's error: he picked the wrong liberal to fly
nt
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It amazes me how the automatic assumption is assasination.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 08:23 PM by Padraig18
No proof whatsoever--- zip, zero, none.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. just a joke, I'm sure it was just a coincidence
It's just a coincidence I'm sure.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Took 'em long enough
sheez
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. It was just about the normal time for an NTSB investigation.
Some are quicker, when everyone survives, some take a very much longer time when nobody does.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Evidence of previous pilot errors:
"...During the probe, investigators learned of two instances when co-pilots took the controls from Conry as he flew Wellstone to campaign appearances. Just three days before the fatal crash, Conry activated the wrong switch and caused the plane to pitch downward when it was 300 feet off the ground. The co-pilot corrected his action...

John Clark, the NTSB's director of aviation safety, said the pilots were flying too fast as they approached the runway and didn't put their landing gear down soon enough. Trying to overcome the mistake, they slowed too much, and the plane went from 190 mph to 87 mph in the final 90 seconds of the flight, Clark said.


No mechanical problems were found, so investigators concluded inattention by the pilots most likely was to blame.


"One of them should have been monitoring the instruments," said Bill Bramble, a human performance investigator for the NTSB...."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031118/ap_on_go_ot/wellstone_crash_7

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frogbison Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. The following is, in itself, odd:
"...During the probe, investigators learned of two instances when co-pilots took the controls from Conry as he flew Wellstone to campaign appearances. Just three days before the fatal crash, Conry activated the wrong switch and caused the plane to pitch downward when it was 300 feet off the ground. The co-pilot corrected his action..."

Wonder if Wellstone was informed of Conry's negligence?

Not to start anything because I certainly don't have any evidence, but is it possible that he was trying to do the job but others intervened? Third time's the charm and all...
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. See post # 123 in this LBN thread...I don't feel like re-typing it
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Wow, then I guess it the timing for this 'accident'
was just another little gift to the GOP by the Easter Bunny.

Gee......didn't Wellstone's death ENSURE a majority in the senate for the GOP? Wow.....what luck. And.....of ALL dem senators to bite the dust.......there was a man who would have stood as a hero to the people by telling the TRUTH and fighting for the truth in re to this lying administration and the turncoat congresscritters supporting the admin (and that includes BOTH repub and dem reps/senators)

When fuckng GOP swing vote reps and senators start falling out of the sky and committing 'suicide'.....I will look more closely at the reports put out BY fascist controlled executive office wing of the monarchy, thankyouverymuch.

Well, good that YOU feel better about the whole unfortunate thing.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I don't 'feel better'.
I also do not see any objective evidence to indicate that this was anything other than a garden-variety plane crash. Again, do you have any evidence that it was not?
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Conspiranuts don't do evidence.
:eyes:
:grr:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kick
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. The NTSB is a corrupt piece of shit!!
Any stupid son-of-bitch that would believe this shit the NTSB puts out needs to check himself into a nut house.

Stich's credentials: http://www.unfriendlyskies.com/author_bio.html
Stich's lawsuits against NTSB: http://www.druggingamerica.com/judges.html

Corrupt? You goddamn well know it. Here is what ex-Inspector General
Mary Shiavo says in Flying Blind/Flying safe:

http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/cyberjournal/msg00211.html
She is now involved in assisting 9/11 victims in a lawsuit.
Mary Shiavo: http://www.planesafe.org/flyingblind.htm

...........After all, it wasn't the first time that hazardous materials had caused a terrible accident on a plane, nor the first time that a disaster might have been averted if the cargo hold had been properly equipped with smoke and fire warning systems. The FAA knew this; the airlines knew it; the NTSB, the Department of Transportation and its Inspector General all knew it. Perhaps the only ignorant players in the game were the passengers. Yet even after 110 of them died in the Everglades, Peña went on television to defend his agency and ValuJet. Still, Peña seemed to underestimate the significance of the mandate.

"This led to the unacceptable perception that the FAA had to make choices between ensuring safety and promoting the industry it regulates." That was it. He thought the problem was solved.

I was working at home on my computer when Peña took to the airwaves. As I heard his comments from the television across the room, my fingers froze over the keyboard. Was Peña ignorant of the true nature of the FAA? Or had the FAA spoon-fed him this line about the dual standard being no big deal? Whether he believed it himself or not, he and the FAA knew they could utter pablum about the FAA mandate and nobody would be the wiser. They counted on the public not knowing what the mandate really means to the FAA. Peña's recommendation to Congress, no doubt supported at the FAA, was to tweak the wording of the mandate, not to dig out the root of the problem. In truth, the mission is much more than just a few words in the act. It is threaded throughout the legislation, just the way the culture of promoting aviation is woven throughout the FAA, inherent in its practices, its policies, and the people who work there. Eliminating a few lines in the law won't change the agency's entrenched favoritism toward the aviation industry.

That culture propelled Peña to face the public after the ValuJet crash like a nervous cheerleader whose team was forty points down in the fourth quarter. His carefully crafted explanations that ValuJet was safe were meant to prevent the public from reacting with hysteria to the truth. But the Department of Transportation wanted to prevent hysteria not to safeguard the public, but to protect the moneymaking status quo of the airline industry, and especially the low-cost or start-up carriers. The ValuJet crisis trained a floodlight on one of the more striking FAA fallacies that, once certified, an airline is always safe. That if an airline is not safe, it cannot fly. Those are simply myths. No one at the FAA or in the aviation industry wants to acknowledge that vast differences exist among airline maintenance facilities, the age and quality of aircraft, the caliber of spare-parts inventory and programs for screening bogus parts, the qualifications and experience of pilots and crew, and security practices. The public believes that caring professionals at the FAA regulate all of that through a finely honed, carefully orchestrated network of safety laws. The FAA does not want consumers to believe any differently. In reality, the FAA is at a loss to know how to deal with this new style of airline business, and with new threats to airplanes. The discount airlines that appeared and grew rapidly in the late 1980s and 1990s left the FAA stunned and blinking at a whirlwind of leased and used planes, contracted and subcontracted maintenance facilities, and inexperienced pilots and flight crews. But the FAA's inertia sent a message: what the public doesn't know can't hurt it. And the agency amply demonstrated that it wouldn't challenge that assumption until a major plane disaster claimed hundreds of lives......


And sometimes not even then.

In 1993, I learned that the FAA's abhorrence of action extended to airport security. As I discussed briefly in the introduction, plainclothes agents from my office sneaked into some of the nineteen busiest airports in the U.S. They wandered around in off-limits areas, seldom challenged by airport or airline employees. We saw other people milling about without proper identification, and they weren't stopped, either. Once my agents got into these supposedly secure areas, they walked around aircraft parking spaces, baggage processing centers, maintenance areas and ramp administrative offices. They got onto planes and into cargo holds. They wore no identification, dressed casually and didn't even pretend to belong there. They also carried guns, knives, fake bombs and a deactivated hand grenade through security screening points and x-ray machines. When we reported the lax state of airport security, our findings caused a stir in the media, on Capitol Hill, among the airlines and even at the Department of Transportation. The FAA noted that it "concurred" with virtually all of our recommendations to fix airport defenses. Unfortunately, agreement did not necessarily mean action.

Then we have the NTSB/CIA "employee" Carol Carmody who oversees both Carnahan's and Wellstones crashes.

Dec-24-02, 09:28 AM (ET) 136. CIA CIA everywhere
National Transportation Safety Board member Carol Carmody said radar records show Carnahan's plane descending from 7,100 to 3,900 feet in nine seconds. NTSB investigators have ruled out an in-flight breakup of the plane, she said.
Carmody said that Cessna issued a service bulletin Oct. 2 on a part of the plane called a ``vacuum system manifold check valve.'' If the valve wasn't working, it could have affected the operation of the artificial horizon, she said.
``We don't know if this has any significance, but it is one of those things we will take a look at,'' Carmody said.
Weather data also showed shear winds at about 7,000 feet near the time of the crash, she said. A shear layer results when air masses collide and cause buffeting currents.
``This would be of interest to someone flying an airplane,'' Carmody said. ``I would think it might result in some turbulence.''
<http://www.airdisaster.com/news/1000/19/news.shtml>

EVELETH, Minnesota (CNN) -- Investigators are looking at weather conditions and a navigational device in their search for clues as to what may have caused the plane crash that killed U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone and seven others, the head of the National Transportation Safety Board said Sunday.
Investigators have discovered the aircraft was off course, heading south and away from the runway, when it crashed Friday morning. Pilots were reporting light icing conditions in the area, and investigators are examining whether de-icing equipment on the plane was working properly, said Carol Carmody, the
NTSB's acting chairwoman.
<http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/27/wellstone.crash>/
Funny how this investigator seems to be pre-empting her own investigations, letting the media know that weather conditions are the prime suspect, in both cases within 3 days of the crashes.
Maybe she's just stating the obvious, but then you realise she's ex-CIA, and, in these days, can't help but go hmmmm...
<http://www.ntsb.gov/Abt_NTSB/bios/carmody.htm>


Here is another article on Carmody and WEllstone crash: http://www.reader-weekly.com/Reader/Reader_Weekly/Jim_Fetzer/225JimFetzer.htm

The above claims by Shiavo and the involvement of the CIA via Carmody corroborates Stich's take that the CIA have corrupted air safety. Stich's work on this shows a much more corrupt system than Carmody.

Stich on NTSB and FAA corruption. http://www.unfriendlyskies.com/fedntsb_brief.html
http://www.defraudingamerica.com/author_bio.html
http://www.rense.com/general15/stich.htm

What in the hell are you trying to accomplish Padraig????????

You pump this shit out and ignore everything else. Pathetic
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
21. Kick
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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. One stop shop at Salon Table Talk for info on this
See the Wellstone thread here: http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@@.596c4aa0/0

And here: http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@@.596c4aa0/18

And here: http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?addBookmark@@.596c4aa0/760
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kick
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. Evening-shift kick
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