Dean spending cuts and so forth

[tinanator]

Cut state aid to education ($6 million)

Cut retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million)

Cut health care ($4 million)

Cut programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million)

Cut Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million)


But during the same period

Spent $7 million for a low-interest loan for business

Spent $30 million for a new prison

Cut the income tax by 8 percent (equivalent to $30 million)-a move many in the legislature balked at because they didn't feel comfortable "cutting taxes in a way that benefits the wealthiest taxpayers."

By the end of his term spending on prisons increased by nearly 150 percent while investments in state colleges increased by only 7 percent

http://kucinichwatch.com/support/Howard_Dean_leader.htm

this was going around, thought you might be interested, if you hadnt heard already.
have a nice night!

[retyred]

1. In all fairness to Dean

That was then this is now, He's running for president now and I'm sure that if you asked him, he'd have a talking-points memo for each of thoe issues that promises there's no need to do that now.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[Skwmom]

33. "Promises there's no need to do that now?"

Like we can trust his promise. In addition, in defending one of his many flip-flops on one of the news shows he stated something along the lines that he had only held that position before when there was a budget crisis (deficits..) Well what do we have now?

[Zynx]

2. What year was that?

[sfecap]

3. Some more stuff:

1. He eats kittens. (Raw or slightly charred.)

2. He talks back to his mom.

3. He once walked by a Salvation Army person at Christmas without donating.

4. He's really, really, mean.

5. He owns a copy of Michael Jackson's new CD. (This nees to be thoroughly investigated....)

6. He's angry.

7. He's really, really, angry.

More stuff later...

[mitchum]

15. You forgot that he's a centrist...

beloved by the Cato Institute

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. Wow what on-target answers to the specific criticism.

You must have a research team or something.

[Upfront]

4. Yawn

We are kicking your ass and you don't like it. So sad, to bad. Baaaaaaaa

[Kanary]

5. Made my decision

This is what I have been saying.... Dean made cuts to social programs, and when I bring it up, I am dismissed.

Now I see that his "supporters" think it's funny to dis......

Obviously, it matters not to you that some of us DEPEND on those programs that you think are so funny to dismiss. That says a lot, not only about your character, but about DEAN himself, and the general tone of the Democratic party. No wonder so many of us have given up.

You may have your kittens... many of us will be dead. Not that it matters to you, obviously.

If any Dean supporters actually have any compassion, now is the time to speak up. You can see for yourselves why many of us have no real enthusiasm for a Dean administration.

Kanary

[Rose Siding]

6. VT had no prison

They were sending inmates to board in another state. They traded the expense.

To say it this way makes it look like propaganda. I'm disappointed in Dennis for doing that.

A list like this is very uninformative. Some cuts are offset by spending in another area or are supplimented by federal funds. It isn't even dated so that it can be disputed! Very disappointing, Dennis.

[dorktv]

8. Dean has addressed this before.

He mentioned once how he had to balence the budget and make cuts he did not want to make because of certain priorities. And since when is trying to get business growth BAD?

[killbotfactory]

10. Business = Evil

No matter what... Aparently.

[dorktv]

11. Well I understand that businesses can be bad but that is

why you need strong regulatory governments.

[tinanator]

23. no prisons?

http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/74616.html

http://www.lindesmith.org/news/12_20_01vermont2.cfm

no kiddin?

[Rose Siding]

34. sorry-

No adequate prison- see post 30

[slinkerwink]

7. The results of those cuts....

People would claim that Vermont suffers from economic malaise, but I would point at actual statistics to illustrate the truth. In May of 2003 Vermont had an unemployment rate of 4.1%. This is much lower then the unemployment rates of such "economic powerhouses" such as California (6.4%) and the president's own Texas (6.8% - even higher then the national average)(Link).

As to the distribution of jobs in Vermont, another look at actual statistics destroys the illusion that the public sector is supports the Vermont economy. From the following graphs, one can clearly ascertain that the leading sectors of employment in Vermont were services, retail, manufacturing and government (Link). Manufacturing has maintained a level or slow growth, but I would hold that this corresponds to a national trend of shifting of manufacturing overseas while cultivating more research and development here in the United States (Link). Some corporations have indeed left the state or evaporated entirely. A good example of this is the machine tool industry in the Connecticut River Valley. This industry sector has completely collapsed since the 1970's primarily due to a shift of machine tool manufacturing to overseas sites. This evidence would suggest that the cost of doing business in not only Vermont, but the nation as a whole, is too great. It may be concluded that the policies of individual state governments have little effect on the manufacturing sector. The assertion that logging jobs have left the state is true as well, but again this has little to do with actions by the state government, versus a general trend in the industry. International Paper, Champion and Brown paper companies have been selling much of their forest lands in Northern New England over the past years as operations have shifted to other locations, such as Canada, due to labor costs. This problem is endemic to Northern New England as a whole and not just Vermont, so making an argument that lost logging jobs in Vermont are the result of state policy fails to address the true scope of the problem.

The argument that Vermonters have one of the highest tax burdens in the country may also be refuted. Yes, Vermont had the 12th highest tax burden in the country (Link), but this is hardly worthy of the statement that Vermont has "one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the nation".

The accusation of Vermont being a large recipient of federal funds is farcical at best. In 1990 Vermont was ranked 40th in the nation for federal spending by state(Link). In 2000, it was ranked 25th.

This little piece of research took about 2 hours. Distortion of the truth is common policy for political pundits and mudslingers who do not take the time to support their assertions with fact.

He cut the state income tax twice, reduced Vermont's debt, and built up a rainy-day fund--and, again, much of this was done in the face of opposition from his own party and with the support of moderate Republicans. He left office with an indelible record as a fiscal conservative, and left Vermont's fiscal house in the best shape of any of the New England states'. His conservative successor, Republican Jim Douglas, actually praised Dean's policies in an April speech. (The Stranger, 5/15/03, Link)

Vermont has an excellent school system. As Governor, Dean took the lead before the federal government and implemented a strong and fully-funded accountability program for Vermont's school system. He also provided funding so that Vermont's rural schools could utilize technology that would allow them to share in opportunities typically only afforded more rural areas. In addition, he put into place a strong teacher quality program that guaranteed that teachers did a good job and rewarded them for going the extra mile. (Dean For America Link)

One of Dean's more controversial acts as Governor was his support of and signing of Act 60 "The Equal Educational Opportunity Act" which equalized education funding across the state. Dean stood up for the bill, declaring, "It's only fair for everybody to have the same chance in Vermont whether you come from a small town with a small school or a large town with a large school." (Issues 2000 and DfA link above)

[Kanary]

12. I'm ever so glad

to know that he improved business in Vermont, reduced taxes and built up a rainy day fund. Good.

I'm sure that's a great consolation to those who couldn't get medical care, to those who suffered from the cuts for the blind, disabled and elderly.

Danged good thing they stayed quiet about it, eh?

That's why my vote is not for Dean.

*MY* survival matters *not* to him OR his supporters.

As long as business is doing well, and taxes are reduced. Great.

I feel much better now.

I can die in peace.

Kanary

[dorktv]

13. So the fact that all kids are covered and most of the adults

are too is totally irrelevant?

[Kanary]

16. If you're one who is cut

and suffers tremendously or dies...

Yes, it's irrelevant.

Kanary

[dorktv]

19. And the emergancy rooms in Vermont will just throw you out?

Riiiight

[Kanary]

21. yes, dork

The ERs all over the nation are "throwing people out".... shifting them around.

What about people who need chronic care? Tough beans?

You can sneer at me all you like. I know that's the popular attitude now.

Although, I connect that attitude more with the right wing, but whatever.

So, sneer and dismiss me.

Or, maybe open your heart for one minute, and think about what it would be like to be dismissed, and be without resources.

Give that a thought.

Just one time.

Kanary

[dorktv]

25. I work for Health Choice which pays out

the claims for those who do not have the money to pay for health care in my state. I see EVERY SINGLE DAY why we need univeral health care. There are people in my state who have no choice but to go the emergency room because they can not afford to a regular doctor. And they have just go with what the ER doctor gives them because they are not eligible for any of AHCCCS' programs. One can only be eligble for 100% of 24000 for a family of four or 7000 for a person.

[Kanary]

29. Hard to follow you

You just now listed several reasons why many of us are unhappy with the cuts that Dean made. Yet, you chose to be sarcastic with me, rather than to speak from your better side, connect with some compassion, and talk about it reasonably.

Ever hear the saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Until you, and your candidate, can let those of us on the bottom know that you are offering us more than sarcasm and dismissal, you're not going to be garnering as many supporters as you'd like.

Something to consider the next time you want to dis somebody.

There ARE hurting people, y'know....

Kanary

[slinkerwink]

17. good point.

[Kanary]

22. Good point?

Anything more you can add?

Kanary

[killbotfactory]

9. ,,,

Cut state aid to education ($6 million)

When? Why? Did he increase it before or after he made the cut? Link?

Cut retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million)

When? Why? Did he increase it before or after he made the cut? Link?

Cut health care ($4 million)

When? Why? Did he increase it before or after he made the cut? Link?

Can you see where I'm going with this?

Cut programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million)

When? Why? Did he increase it before or after he made the cut? Link?

Cut Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million)

When? Why? Did he increase it before or after he made the cut? Link?

Spent $7 million for a low-interest loan for business

When? Why? Link?

Spent $30 million for a new prison

This he was forced to do, due to crummy conditions of the current prison.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. There is NO excuse for cutting the income tax by 8 percent

none. Especially in consideration of those cuts in expenditures. Geez... is this guy a Republican?

[dsc]

18. Too bad for you that

he did no such thing. As I posted in Politics and Campaigns that is utterly false. I also posted it here. Here it is, yet again.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=716203&mesg_id=716446&page=

Here is the source for the 8% income tax cut

11 Interview with Anthony Pollina by Democracy In Action at the Progressive Party offices in Montpelier, Vermont, July 9, 2002. Anthony Pollina ran for governor against Dean on the Progressive Party ticket in 2000. Available at www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/pollinaint.html

Yep, your eyes aren't decieving you they relied on his opponent in 2000 (his last election) for that.

Is it true. Well, to paraphrase Hertz, not even close.

Unlike this source I used neutral figures and here is the truth.

Now to state income taxes. Dean inherited a tax structure that was 28% of the federal taxes of any citizen of Vermont. Using Clinton's tax numbers that would be a three tiered system of 4.2%, 7.56%, and 9.9% of federal taxable income. He changed that to a five tier system of 3.6%, 7.2%, 8.5%, 9.0%, and 9.5% of federal taxable income. My link provides charts to show when each rate kicks in. That is actually a progressive tax cut. Poor people percent taxation was lowered by a greater amount than that of rich people. The rich got 0.4% while the poor got 0.6%. That is the reverse of what Bush did. The poor got 5% while the rich got 6%. I was wrong on one thing in previous threads. State taxes are still deductable. Also if Bush had not been elected Dean would have probably left taxes at 24% of the federal tax (where his 99 tax cut left them) that would be 3.6%, 6.48%, 9.36%. That would be a flat tax cut. This is not the Bush supply side economics that Dean haters pretend it is.

www.state.vt.us/tax/majorvttaxes.htm
www.leg.state.vt.us/reports/tax/vol1-03.htm

You need both links to have the full story. Now the claim is that Dean cut income taxes 8%. Since they don't really define that very well it can mean several things. It could mean the rate fell 8% but if we try that we see that is wrong. Dean started with 28% and ended with 24%. Subtraction yields that as being 4% not 8%. It might mean that ones total tax bill was reduced by 8%. In the top bracket (and that is these people's problem) rates declined from 9.9% to 9.36%. 8% of 9.9% is .792% Dean cut taxes by .64%. So they are wrong there as well. So maybe they dishonestly included the effect of Bush's cuts (which Dean later negated in his state). Let's see. 24% of 35% is 8.4%. That would be a cut of 1.5% so they didn't do that. Maybe Dean's opponent did what opponents often do, made up the figure out of thin air.

It took me a very short time and a not all that careful reading to find this howling error. Some might call it a deception. Ask yourself. If I could find this howler in a few minutes just how good are those endnotes? Ann Coulter had end notes too after all.





Full disclosure I was wrong on what their source was. It was instead the Rutland Herald. I couldn't get their articles since ones from back then aren't online. But clearly, wherever they got the figures they are wrong. It took me a quick reading to figure that out.



Yet again, a bald faced distortion from the press in regards to Dean.

[dorktv]

20. My brain melted from that but I still support dean.

[dsc]

24. Unfortunately a lack of writing talent

and a lack of computer skills combine to make me a far less slick messanger than the authors of the original piece but the bottom line is Dean didn't cut income taxes 8%. He cut them either 4% or around 6% depending on exactly what the authors actually meant. Neither is the 8% they falsely claim.

[dorktv]

26. No...Tax numbers always make my mind melt.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. You cannot justify ANY tax cut while also making those cuts in services.

Sorry but you cannot do that unless you are a Republican.

[dsc]

28. that was also false

though I admittedly can't find links. But his first income tax cut happened in 1994 when the economy was on the upswing and his spending was increasing since his budget was in surplus. The second cut came in the late 1990's and also were at a time of rising spending. The cuts were in the early 2000's when he actually raised taxes. But I do note the other lack of acknowledgement that you indeed were sighting a source that was wrong.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. We needed a new prison desperately

For years there had been serious overcrowding problems. It was so bad that the women prisoners had to be housed in the same prison as men and in the Burlington facility the gym was filled with cots for prisoners. To make matters worse, one of the prisons were in such bad repair that it had to either be completely renovated or closed. In Vermont, the town has to approve of the prison being built there, so the state spent quite a few years trying to find a host town where they could acquire the land to put it on. Politics here are extremely complicated and there is usually a huge debate over just about everything all the way down to the town level. Eventually Vermont had to send all kinds of it's prisoners to Virginia, which is extremely expensive. A permanent solution HAD to be found and it required a new prison. The state couldn't use the site of the prison that closed because their plot of land wasn't big enough and it was right in downtown on the main street. There just wasn't any room for expansion. The town of Springfield Vermont took the prison, but in exchange for hosting it they got a brand new state of the art high school with all state college's having branches and classes there, a new recreation center, a new state building for state offices, repaving of the roads, repaired bridges, etc. A lot of the cost of the new prison actually went to education and the community. This will save the state an incredible amount of money over the long term because of the costs that would have been incurred from keeping our prisoners in Virginia.

Dean has the unique ability of being able to cut spending while expanding programs. For instance, he was able to save all kinds of money on health care by allowing more seniors to stay at home and get the supportive care they need rather than sticking them in nursing homes. He was able to cover MORE seniors AND fund a prescription drug benefit.

Monetary cuts don't necessarily mean a cut in services, especially not when the budget cruncher makes the effort to sort out waste and do things in a more cost effective way...and that is what Dean does. You can pay $100 for a pair of sneakers at one store or you can shop around, invest some time and effort and get the same pair of sneakers on sale for $50 on the other side of town. You aren't sacrificing anything but you are saving money that can be spent on something else that needs funding too. Dean is a smart, thrifty shopper. What's wrong with that?

[dsc]

31. Sweet Jesus

My hometown got a prison and didn't get jack.