BBV: Suppose we get a voter-verified paper ballot...but we can't recount

[TruthIsAll]

the votes? Then what?

Suppose Bush cheats again and steals Florida with 50.5% of the vote. That means at least a 1% margin. Seems to me this would not fall within the required spread limits (0.5% if I am not mistaken) to justify a recount.

Recounts are traditionally used for close, really close elections. But if the results are not close, then no recount. Of course, this was before BBV.

So what good are the verified paper-ballots? Jeb will never let you see them. He doesn't have to by law. So who can the Dems call for a recount?

BBV creates infinitely more problems than it solves. It is a Pandora's box - nonpareil. The perfect Repuke tool.

I am convinced, unless someone can prove to me otherwise. The only solution is paper ballots. Period. No muss. No fuss.

We all know this to be true. Otherwise, we will have to recount virtually every state. Because touch-screen cheating may very well occur in any or all of them. How will we know? If the winner gets 51%, or 53% or ...we are screwed.

The Repukes will say, oh, it was last minute voter switching. Or the blacks stayed home. Or it rained in the cities. Or Bush spent a lot of money the last weekened. Or the Democratic base was not sufficiently energized. Or soccer moms voted for Bush. Or the polls were way off. Sure.

That's the problem. A computer program can spoil more votes in a nanosecond then poll workers can double punch cards in a lifetime.

[BevHarris]

1. Exactly. Paper ballot is only half the solution.

The other half is robust audit in every election -- counting paper ballots at the polling place, before they are transferred to a central location.

As a gentleman said at the town meeting I attended last night: "I don't care if we have to bring the cub scouts in to count the paper ballots, we need to count them, all of 'em, every time."

I am comfortable with the following inexpensive, quick solution to a 100% audit of every election every time:

Paper ballot that voter verifies, which must be readable without the aid of any device. Bar code on this ballot. Get a generic bar code reader, unrelated entirely to any voting machine vendor. Something you can scan a can of beans with or a ballot bar code with equal ease. Something generic that you buy any old place, off the shelf, that can give you a readout so you know what it is scanning is the same as what you are seeing on the ballot.

I did a little test on this. It took 2 people 20 minutes to hand-scan the amount of ballots in a large metro precinct.

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Alternatively, I'm comfortable with all paper, all hand-counted. However, to do this you have to have only one or two questions on the ballot. Most of our elections have about 70 questions, which makes it impossible to hand count.

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I am not comfortable with the oft-repeated solution of running touch screen paper ballots through an optical scan machine, because that is not generic and is generally made by the same voting vendor. The idea for a proper audit is two INDEPENDENT data sources must match.

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Punch cards are also counted by computer, are they not?

[RedEagle]

2. It Would Trigger a Recount

If Bush, in your scenario, achieved a 1% lead nationally, that would mean that in states, it would be mere fractions- that would trigger a recount, usually, in the STATES.

We need voter verified paper ballots, and real, independent, extensive, exit polling.

Exit polling must come back in a new form, not funded and managed by the media.

[creativelcro]

4. absolutely...

I don't know much about exit polling, but are there alternative ways (alternative to media sponsored ones, that is) to do it ? Have they always been media sponsored, historically ? How about other countries ?... Can it theoretically be handled by some form of grassroots organization ? -CV

[TruthIsAll]

6. <<<< The states to watch out for...

<<<<< - INDICATES STATE IN DANGER OF BEING STOLEN IN 2004

State Gore Bush total
AL 692,611 42.39% 941,173 57.61% 1,633,784
AK 79,004 32.06% 167,398 67.94% 246,402
AZ<<<< 685,341 46.72% 781,652 53.28% 1,466,993
AR<<<< 422,768 47.20% 472,940 52.80% 895,708
CA 5,861,203 56.20% 4,567,429 43.80% 10,428,632
CO 738,227 45.51% 883,748 54.49% 1,621,975
CT 816,659 59.27% 561,104 40.73% 1,377,763
DE 180,068 56.74% 137,288 43.26% 317,356
FL<<<< 2,912,253 50.00% 2,912,790 50.00% 5,825,043
GA 1,116,230 44.02% 1,419,720 55.98% 2,535,950
HA 205,286 59.83% 137,845 40.17% 343,131
ID 138,637 29.15% 336,937 70.85% 475,574
IL 2,589,026 56.18% 2,019,421 43.82% 4,608,447
IN 901,980 42.00% 1,245,836 58.00% 2,147,816
IA<<<<< 638,517 50.16% 634,373 49.84% 1,272,890
KA 399,276 39.08% 622,332 60.92% 1,021,608
KY 638,923 42.27% 872,520 57.73% 1,511,443
LA<<<< 792,344 46.06% 927,871 53.94% 1,720,215
ME<<<< 319,951 52.75% 286,616 47.25% 606,567
MD 1,143,888 58.43% 813,724 41.57% 1,957,612
MA 1,616,487 64.79% 878,502 35.21% 2,494,989
MI<<<<< 2,170,418 52.63% 1,953,139 47.37% 4,123,557
MN<<<<< 1,168,266 51.29% 1,109,659 48.71% 2,277,925
MS 404,614 41.39% 572,844 58.61% 977,458
MO<<<<< 1,111,138 48.29% 1,189,924 51.71% 2,301,062
MT 137,126 36.34% 240,178 63.66% 377,304
NE 231,776 34.82% 433,850 65.18% 665,626
NV<<<< 279,978 48.14% 301,575 51.86% 581,553
NH<<<<< 266,348 49.33% 273,559 50.67% 539,907
NJ 1,788,850 58.21% 1,284,173 41.79% 3,073,023
NM<<<< 286,783 50.03% 286,417 49.97% 573,200
NY 4,107,697 63.09% 2,403,374 36.91% 6,511,071
NC 1,257,692 43.54% 1,631,163 56.46% 2,888,855
ND 95,284 35.27% 174,852 64.73% 270,136
OH<<<< 2,183,628 48.16% 2,350,363 51.84% 4,533,991
OK 474,276 38.92% 744,337 61.08% 1,218,613
OR<<<< 720,342 50.24% 713,577 49.76% 1,433,919
PA<<<< 2,485,967 52.15% 2,281,127 47.85% 4,767,094
RI 249,508 65.65% 130,555 34.35% 380,063
SC 566,037 41.84% 786,892 58.16% 1,352,929
SD 118,804 38.39% 190,700 61.61% 309,504
TN<<<< 981,720 48.04% 1,061,949 51.96% 2,043,669
TX 2,433,746 39.04% 3,799,639 60.96% 6,233,385
UT 203,053 28.27% 515,096 71.73% 718,149
VT 149,022 55.44% 119,775 44.56% 268,797
VA 1,217,290 45.85% 1,437,490 54.15% 2,654,780
WA<<<< 1,247,652 52.94% 1,108,864 47.06% 2,356,516
WV<<<< 295,497 46.76% 336,473 53.24% 631,970
WI<<<< 1,242,987 50.12% 1,237,279 49.88% 2,480,266
WY 60,481 29.02% 147,947 70.98% 208,428
DC 171,923 90.49% 18,073 9.51% 189,996

Totals 536 50,996,582 50.27% 50,456,062 49.73% 101,452,644

[TruthIsAll]

3. Bev, might as well be paper ballots..since we need to count manually.

Lets KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Just a paper ballot is required. Why complicate matters with touchsreens, scanners, punch cards, etc? These are redundant.

Let's go to the source documents.

Of course, the answer is so simple and obvious, like getting rid of the electoral College, that it will never happen..

Because.........OUR SYSTEM IS CORRUPT...

THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE..

[BevHarris]

5. Because I have yet to see anyone favoring only paper ballots

even address the issue of how to handle the elections with more than just one or two questions on the ballot.

What many don't know is that in countries that do an entirely paper, hand-counted system that is only for certain elections, like national elections. Some of them whip out the voting machines for other elections. Here in the USA we like our referenda and we like to vote for school board members and judges and everything else.

Do the math: Counting 70 questions, each with 2 or more options, is vastly different than what Canada does counting just one or two questions.

Also, there are logistical issues because we have not got homogenous language to the extent that Canada, France and Germany do. There are legitimate issues for the disabled. And paper ballot systems always have some vote-rigging.

I could get behind an all-paper, hand counted solution, but the above issues need to be addressed, not just ignored as they are now by all-paper nothing else advocates.

From an accounting standpoint, a hybrid system is much more tamperproof than either an all-paper or an all-machine system. My biggest objection to the hybrid system is cost, which is pretty outrageous, and among the costs, the ongoing tech support and need for upgrades is pretty ridiculous.

As I said, I can get behind either solution. But I have to actually see the solution, because so far, the all-paper folks haven't addressed some critically important issues.

Bev

[TruthIsAll]

7. That is why they have to keep Bush's poll numbers inflated at near 50%

Because if he is at, say, 45% in a given state poll on election day, then it will look very suspicious if he squeaks out a win. Flags will go up.

But if he is at 47% or higher (near the MOE), he can cheat without a recount and win with 51%. No flags raised.

[Kellanved]

9. I see

To throw in Germany as an example: the two votes - many Party system used here leads to many possible ballots. The communal system used in some conservative states gives one voter up to several hundred (sic) votes and the option to change the order on the list and/or the number of votes for a single candidate.





(Person holding a ballot for communal elections in Hesse)


I honestly don't see that the language is any simpler than in the US. (Although it's always one ballot per question - even with several questions asked).
Germany is migrating to an machine system as well (some states anyways) - the rules are pretty strict though: recountable paper trail is mandatory.

[Hippo_Tron]

8. How about the lockbox electronic voting machine solution...

We can simply take the key that opens up the voting machines, put it in a lockbox, and give it to Al Gore. Voila, untampered voting machines.

[Noordam]

10. Not True in Florida

In Florida as you should remember the recount is done in front of representatives of all parties.

[dusty64]

11. How about

a paper ballot (receipt) dropped in a box after voting. A mandatory sampling should be counted after the voting deadline to ensure the results match. The sampling should be random and done for EVERY race on the ballot, if results are funky a total count should be performed of the PAPER ballots and an investigation into the machines should be started.

[TXvote]

12. Exit Polling Too

Paper ballot, yes, absolutely necessary. HR2239 is our best hope in my opinion. Where are the Senators proposing the sister bill?

Many thoughtful people are concerned about the absence of comprehensive exit polls. The only exit poll I saw in the incubator of election strategies (Cali recall) was a very early release that Arnie was in the "overwhelming lead" based on only 2000 voter's opinions. Anyone with half a brain knows this is not a comprehensive exit poll.

Florida killed most exit polling services. The media needed a scapegoat and exit polls took the fall. Funny thing, the exit polls were right.... I am confident that the expertise and human resources needed to provide exit polling still exist in America. In addition to the paper ballot, we need these exit polls. I can only hope that someone has the resources and the vision to provide extensive exit polling in 2004.

Peace,
Teresa