Please help me figure out the religious "right" Re: same sex marriage

[Hep]

I keep seeing and hearing people support an amendment banning same sex marriage based on religious doctrine. Can anyone help me figure this out?

I was raised in a Christian home. My parents were very conservative, and continue to be despite my constant badgering. So it isn't that I don't understand religious people, having been one myself. That said...


God makes it pretty clear throughout the bible that we're not really supposed to care what our neighbor does. It's up to HIM to dish out judgment and punishment for wrongdoing or whatever. So it seems that by making these kinds of laws that outlaw certain behaviour because it's seen as abominable in the eyes of God, we're actually getting in the way of His work. We're undermining His Great Plan (tm), which one would think is more insulting.

The other angle I can't understand about the Religious Wrong's support for a constitutional ban is the fact that the government should not be making decisions that effectively tell the church what to do.

Idunno, maybe I watch too much Six Feet Under, butit just seems like supporting the ban on same sex marriage on religious grounds is the biggest example of Religious "missing the point" I've ever seen. If I were God, I'd be doing some serious smiting.

[mhr]

1. It Is Pretty Clear That The Repuglicans Are Using Theological

arguments to agitate their right wing base and address a subject that makes them VERY uncomfortable.

Have you ever noticed how interested the right-wing is in other people's business. Maybe they are quite afraid of their own sexuality and just can't stomach the thought that other people are not.

Consequently, they kill two birds with one stone. They address their fears and they keep their political base agitated through religion.

Seems pretty clear.

[Hep]

4. So when

is the church going to come out and reclaim God from the right wing hypocrites? Actual intelligent religious leaders have to be pissed right now that the far right controls the image of the pious.

[mhr]

5. Very Good Question! I Have Wondered The Same

eom

[BlueJazz]

6. Yep.....mhr...How right you are.....

I've encountered so many Christen folk who spew supposedly "Laws" from the bible and I just think (and sometimes say)....
"You know, Pal, this crap you're regurgitating is coming from your own insecurities and warped mind..it has almost nothing to do with the Bible
or the teaching of Jesus."

[Warpy]

13. Nah, don't kid yourself.

They aren't using theology at all, they're using a bunch of witless slogans, as usual, about gay marriage being a threat to good Christian couples everywhere.

My tack lately has been to ask just want this threat consists of, how people in stable hetero marriages are threatened if the statutes are liberalized to include people they've never met (and would probably run from if they were ever introduced).

They look at me as though I'd just clocked them with a 2x4 between the eyes, but it does force the best of them to start thinking about that.

The first step toward busting though the midless sloganeering is getting them to THINK about what those words mean.

[kitkatrose]

18. Have you actually gotten answers to that question?

I'd really like to hear them. Whenever I ask myself, "Self, how does gay marriage undermine/dissolve/whatever straight marriage?" my head explodes. It just makes no logical sense whatsoever.

[Catfish]

2. I don't understand it either

The only explanation I have is that it's part of what they see as a cultural war. I think insecure people feel threatened by people who live in a way that is different from them. Maybe they feel resentful that they don't have choices and have to live in some lockstep fashion. I'm sure that there are genuinely religious people who aren't bothered by same sex marriage. The angry resentful religious group is a subset, I think.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Talk to Khephra

He's got this stuff pretty cold.

[kcwayne]

7. Depends on the definition of begat

Your interpretation of what the Bible says is not the same as those who find homosexuality to be evil and drag out Biblical justification. You are skipping the many parts of the Bible that call for the faithful to kill or otherwise persecute a wide array of perceived enemies of God that include heathens, witches, and homosexuals.

The fundies focus on the us versus them stuff. You choose to focus on other things. Good for you.

The Bible has proven to be a malleble tool since it was put into its present form 800 or so years ago, and many have found justification for any prejudice or animosity of their choosing.

From the genocide of the South and North American Indians to slavery there have been those that found the words of God in the Bible to support their hideous acts.

Given its vague, contradictory, illogical, and confused language and principles, its baffling to me how anyone that uses reason as the guiding principle of morality can incorporate teachings and moralisms from this book as though it were devinely conceived. If it were devinely concieved, it is a very confused divinity that instructed the monks of the 12th century to transcribe this tome.

[Hep]

15. well put

thanks!

[Kazak]

8. The thing that I don't understand...

I've never once heard anyone who supports the ban say what harm can possibly come from allow gay marriage.

[kcwayne]

11. The politically correct thing I have heard stated

is that it violates "sacred" traditions that are time honored throughout history. Of course those that say this are ignorant of Greek history, and in particular the Spartans. Since the Greeks are considered to be the creators of Western Civilization that is being touted, they just conveniently forget any truth about what time honored means.

Another concern I have heard expressed (though less politically correct) is the concern for children being raised in homosexual households. The fear is that legalizing homosexual marriage will lead to a large problem of children raised in this environment.

Hmmm, wasn't that nutjob that drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub in Houston a bible thumper possessed by demons that told her to do it in the name of Jesus? Seems like we should ban all religiously based marriages so this doesn't happen.

[Kazak]

14. Hmmm...I'm more concerned about..

kids that grow up in fundie households, personally.

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. Churches are afraid of a couple of things

1) That they will be forced to perform marriages of gays, or that they will have to spend money fighting lawsuits to force them to do it.

2) They feel it takes away from the meaning of marraige as a societal institution and they fear that marriage will somehow mean less to people if gays are allowed to "marry".

It's fear, basically. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the church or can understand their reasoning, you still have to respect their right to feel however they feel about it. For this very reason I believe that the goal for gay relationship rights has to be "equal but different"...give the same exact rights, just call it something different. Seriously, there are plenty of better names to use to refer to homosexual unions. This also doesn't prevent having ceremonies and having a Justice of the Peace or Notary officiate in the exchanging of vows. Anyone can get notarized to perform ceremonies, so it's not like homosexuals will miss out on "weddings" if their legal union is called something other than marriage.

[adamblast]

22. "Seperate But Equal" is *not* equal.

Yes, civil unions are better than nothing.

Yes, giving us our equal relationship rights in a peicemeal fashion, one at a time, is better than nothing.

But for you to suggest that should be our *goal* only reinforces that you don't care about gay equality yourself.

There are over 1049 Federal rights and responsibilities associated with marriage. It's impossible to estimate how many different state laws come into play. And there's only one way to create real equality among relationships.

"Equal in everything but NAME" is asking us to permanently accept 2nd class citizenship.

[TXvote]

10. The Tool I Use

I am living in Texas, aka homophobe heartland of America and have spent years learning to allay fears of very frightened people. First and foremost I have learned not to argue that homosexuality is "OK". In fact I use a series of questions. Something like this:
So, what do you think of this whole gay marriage issue?
(let them vent COMPLETELY with no interruptions. Avoid rolling your eyes or otherwise non verbally commenting.Allow for a pause before continuing)
Well, what about the thing with the government telling people what they can do in the privacy of their own homes? I'm a little uncomfortable with that. What's you take?
(if you get lucky they will stumble and pause a little)
You know, I don't understand why people fall in love, but it must be just awful when your lover dies and you have no rights to be by their side in the hospital. Even if I disagree with the lifestyle there are always going to be gay couples in the world. I imagine having NO rights must be horrible sometimes. Not to mention legally complicated to no end. I mean, what do YOU think? Shouldn't all couples have some rights if they are willing to take responsibility?
(In Texas they will often say "they deserve all the hell on earth they get". Sometimes they will hem and haw and struggle with the answer. Let them finish all their thoughts. Then feel free to hammer them with a list of legal complications)
You know they can never be "next of kin" even if their partner has no other family?
You know there are cases where partners were not allowed to identify bodies in the morgue because legally they can never be family?
Wonder what happens when they buy a house together and one dies?
You know kids get yanked from stable homes sometimes and fostered when one partner dies?
Our foster system sucks doesn't it?
( Be sure not to completely overwhelm them at this point. Ask all your questions thoughtfully. Remember it's impossible not to look crazy when you are hopping mad. Nobody pays attention to a crazy person.)
Somebody told me that gay soldiers cannot communicate with their partners. I wonder how hard it is to be in a combat zone without that support?
etc
Congratulations! You have give another citizen something to consider.
At some point the person you are taking to will either freak out or if you get lucky they will actually pause to consider the delimna our society is facing about equal rights for ALL citizens. Any adult will to accept the responsibilities of marriage should be allowed the civil rights of union. The rest can be decided seperately in the sanctity of the church. Seperate from the state.


Peace,
Teresa

[msmcghee]

21. Good suggestions - examples.

I know that's the smart way to do it.

But when I try that (with a particualar conservative acquaintance) - I usually end up asking a question that causes the person to explode. i.e. they can't answer the question without admitting that their argument has no merit - so they just get angry and start yelling.

I guess it's a fine line - and avoiding going in for the kill - just leave them thinking. But it's so hard to hold back. Sometimes you just want to shake them.

:mad:

[LeahMira]

12. Go figure...

God makes it pretty clear throughout the bible that we're not really supposed to care what our neighbor does.

I always thought that the Christians were told not to judge others, but at the same time they were told to do what they could to make the world a more moral sort of place.

That said, I don't understand either why they seem to focus so much on what they consider sinful in the sexual department while they seem to just not see sins in the social justice department.

[southpaw72]

16. understanding the religious right

I think this is a complex issue, and that the tendency of liberals to dismiss the religious right as simply "whackos" is decidedly unhelpful, both in formulating a response to right-wing ideologues AND in helping to form a national dialogue about such "wedge issues" as same-sex marriage.

You said:

God makes it pretty clear throughout the bible that we're not really supposed to care what our neighbor does. It's up to HIM to dish out judgment and punishment for wrongdoing or whatever. So it seems that by making these kinds of laws that outlaw certain behaviour because it's seen as abominable in the eyes of God, we're actually getting in the way of His work. We're undermining His Great Plan (tm), which one would think is more insulting.

I certainly don't want to challenge your understanding of scripture, but in my reading of the Bible, which has been pretty extensive, it seems that the idea of individual rights and freedoms is not particularly strong. In fact, we see over and over the idea of the collective responsibility of the community to maintain its "purity" before God. To grab a single example, think of the image of the Israelite's camp in the wilderness (Num. 7), and all of the extensive limitations on who will be allowed into the camp and who must be excluded. Or think of the Israelites stoning a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath (somewhere in Numbers I think)... it seems very harsh and odd, but it is another example of the community protecting itself against God's wrath by destroying someone who has violated one of God's rule (working on the Sabbath.)

My point is decidedly NOT that this mentality is healthy, or particularly fitting for the kind of diverse, civil society that we live in. But it IS that this mentality, or aspects of it, are deeply entrenched in the Judeo-Christian tradition. It leads to a philosophy of government that is concerned with maintaining the community as a single, homogenous entity, under a single set of rules, and ultimately governed by a higher source -- God.

The concept of individual rights comes out of the 18th century Enlightenment, and its rediscovery/reinterpretation of Greek political philosophy. Here we have a set of ideas that comes out of a fundamental suspicion of absolutist government, and leads to a concept of government that is primarily concerned with maintaining peace and security among individuals and groups, rather than between the community and God.

These two approaches to government seems diametrically opposed and yet, in America, we've never fully adopted one or the other. Instead, we've maintained a sort of dynamic tension between the two. We want government to guarantee the individual right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," and yet we also want to be "one nation, under God." In many ways, the so-called "culture wars" revolve around the question of how this fundamental tension should be resolved.

[msmcghee]

23. Wow . . what a . .

. . clear, interesting view through yet another window.

Hope you stick around for a lot more than 25 posts.



:hi:

[southpaw72]

27. thanks msmcghee! [eom]

[PVnRT]

17. It's the sex

Pure and simple - gay sex disgusts them. They think, then, by doing what they can to degrade and dehumanize gay couples, that fewere people will be out and proud, and they won't have to see two guys kissing, or two women holding hands and staring at each other lovingly. And they can fool themselves into believing that there isn't any of that nasty gay butt sex going on either (it's the anal stuff that they really get worked up about, which is why they seem to hate gay men more than lesbians).

There are other factors involved, but that is a big one.

[soleft]

19. I don't think they're too crazy about straight sex either

[kcwayne]

24. And who blames them?

Would you want to have sex with Barb or Pickles? Ugh.

[theboss]

20. Well . . .

There is a difference between not caring what sin your neighbor commits and living in a society that endorses sin.

(This is not my position, but I believe this is the idea behind why the Religious Right is so crazy about "family value" issues).

[drb]

25. Well, as I hve benn know to hang out with a...

"Fundie" or two, I've noticed that some focus on the "fun" part and some focus on the "die" part.

They are freaked out by the prospect of their son coming home and saying, "Hey, mom and dad! Guess what?! I'm getting married!!" ...only to find out that he's getting married to a guy named Bubba. Ugly pictures of the honeymoon begin to flash rapidly through their minds, and they immediately regret that they agreed to let sonny-boy take ballet lessons.

Personally, I'd agree with them. It always throws them off balance.

"You're damn right! Those queers shouldn't be allowed to get married! They should be forced to continue having anonymous sex with hundreds of different partners in a lonely quest for true happiness."

[msmcghee]

26. There are many good explanations . .

. . in this thread.

There is also the underlying conservative personality (psychology). I have seen this vividly in my family. It is a suspicion that the world is full of very bad people who would destroy good people (them and their families) if they could.

They see themselves as beleagered and join groups where they can self-identify (and where those fears get echoed and amplified).

Thus anyone who thinks, acts or looks different from their (safe) group - is automatically under suspicion and probably an enemy - somone to be marginalized and attacked in every way possible.

They are always on the lookout for such groups to attack - because that gives them the sense that they are protecting themselves. If there were no gays they would certainly find some other group of people who could provide targets for this need of theirs. When any group (like GLBT) stands up and opposes them publicly - then Katy bar the door. Now they have a self-identified enemy - and they no longer have to pretend to be fair about it.

I suspect this ulta-paranoid outlook they share stems from bad experiences in grade school or high school - where perhaps they were repeatedly the brunt of someone's ridicule or abuse (or maybe they were just not as popular as they wished - who was?) - that shaped the way they see others (who are not in their safe group) for the rest of their lives.

Ironically, their hatred of public institutions like public schools - makes them support conservative public school boards and administrations that pretty much ignore abuse and bullying among students - that causes some of those students to grow up and become paranoid conservatives.

Added on edit: And then by college those abused students have already started to gather together in self-protecting groups - where they will often abuse others for being atheists or liberals. It must be exhilarating for them to finally be on the dishing out side of the abuse.

[southpaw72]

28. good point

Never underestimate the power of a system of thought that claims to have all the answers.

This is certainly one explanation for people who are "born again," converting to fundamentalist Christianity.

Others, like our current president, do it more more political reasons...