conversation with a conservative

[Hamlette]

I was waiting in a department store last weekend with another woman. She was dressed to the nines and had a diamond the size of New Jersey on her finger. Some how she mentioned the taxes on her utility bill (don't know how we got there) and said her dream is to run for office and do away with all taxes.

I said, you can't do away with all taxes, you need to provide some services.

She said: sure yes, we need to provide for the national defense.

Me: Then how do you pay for that if you do away with all taxes?

She: Get rid of government waste. There is so much government waste that if you did away with it you could run the government with very little money. Now take welfare cheats. Why should we pay for people to sit around and do nothing?

Me: I think welfare cheats is an overused example. I work in the welfare department and the vast majority of people really need our help. Anyway, less than 2% of the national budget goes to pay for financial assistance to poor people so if you did away with it completely you wouldn't save that much money.

She: 2%!!! You are crazy! Welfare is the second largest budget item in the federal budget after defense!

Me: No. Unless you are including Social Security. Are you saying we should do away with Social Security?

She: (angry at this point) Did I say that? DID I SAY THAT? No. Get rid of welfare cheats and I don't have to pay all these stupid taxes any more.

I stopped talking to her.

I've thought about this encounter a lot. This woman truly believed that welfare is the second largest budget item. (Think of the budget in 5ths. Roughly 1/5th goes to defense. 1/5th goes to pay interest in the national debt. 1/5th goes to medical serices (Medicare, Medicaid and for federal employees) 1/5th goes to Social Security and 1/5th pays for every thing else! Courts, FBI, CIA, Depts of State, Interior, Agriculture, Labor, Congress, welfare, blah blah blah.)

Is this why conservatives are so angry? Are they that ill informed?

They think the vast majority of their taxes go for government waste and welfare. If I believed that I'd be angry too.

[el_gato]

1. yes they are that ill informed

[judge_smales]

2. That's not a conservative-

that's a DittoHead.

Seriously- real conservatives don't belive that crap, just simpletons who listen to Rush and his ilk.

[Ripley]

3. Yes they believe that because Rush told them so.

They have soaked up the lies for so long, the can't think straight even when confronted with a pie chart.

My brother-in-law thinks most of the federal money goes to illegal immigrants (they live in the lap of luxury on OUR dime). But then again he actually wastes money on coral calcium. Some people are just dumb.

[jiacinto]

4. Welfare fraud does exist

I know of a friend who had a friend who was bragging to me about he got "Independence Cards" (the foodstamp program in MD). and how great it was. He was working at a job and making me money. I also know of people who take advantage of Section-8 housing and who brag about it openly. It does exist.

I know of a woman who was making a stable salary and was living with her boyfriend, making decent money (or at least enough to pay rent). And they were getting Section-8.

Another friend of mine went on foodstamps while in college even though he was reciving money from his parents. I was angry only because 1) he was taking aid from those who truly need it and 2) if he ever truly needed it, due to the time limits in the law, he might be prevented from doing so in the future.

While welfare accounts for a small share of the budget fraud does occur. Most people do need it. I don't doubt it. But I have seen personally first hand some people who abuse it and it makes me very angry. Only because they are hurting those people who truly are poor and taking the funds away from those who need it the most.

I have seen it first hand. There are some people who do take advantage of the system. But that woman is way off base.

[denverbill]

5. They are willing dupes of conservatives.

They WANT to believe that taxes are high because they are being victimized by poor people. It assuages their guilt over their not giving a damn about anyone except themselves.

[jiacinto]

6. Fraud does exist

But this woman is off base.

[Hamlette]

7. welfare fraud

yes, it exists. People who are not handicapped park in handicapped stalls. Should we do away with handicapped parking stalls? People fail to obey the speed limit. Should we do away with speed limits? People cheat on their income taxes. Should we do away with income taxes?

This is what bugs me about the welfare cheats argument. It happens everywhere else in the world. The argument has become because some people cheat the whole idea/program is bad. (Thank Reagan for that.)

If you want to catch every welfare cheat you'd have to increase the staff at welfare offices. Maybe give them a case load of 5 instead of the 200 cases they now have. That would cost much more than the benefits paid out. (A family of 4 gets $421 a month in my state. $120 in Mississippi.)

[Ripley]

8. And don't even get me started on the black hole in the Pentagon.

No one seems to bring up the fraud of the missing billions in that building.

[jiacinto]

11. I guess it's a different dynamic

People can't conceptualize it. But they can see welfare cheats on the street.

[strauss_sucks]

12. Yes, If you want to address budget waste, start with Defense

There is no doubt fraud and waste exists within all areas of government programs. But what blows me away, is the MASSIVE degree to which fraud exists within the Military, yet the Dittoheads remain focused on hate-based red herrings like welfare.

Gotta hand it to Rush and Murdoch. They have learned well from Dr. Goebbels.

[jiacinto]

10. I understand

But I am just saying that there is fraud and it does exist. I've seen it first hand and it makes me very angry.

[Ripley]

13. Nobody said it doesn't exist, so why do you keep saying that?

But to focus on the fraction of a percent that someone is stealing by abusing food stamps is insignificant compared to Halliburton charging the federal government 100 times the actual cost of building a bridge, or 50cents more on a gallon of gas.

These facts are printed in the newspaper, not often enough, but it is out there. So there is no logic to explain why people are so outraged by the lessor fraud, except that they are repeatedly told that by Rush, Fox and every other whack job on the radio and TV.

[jiacinto]

14. They can see it first hand

They can't see defense fraud. It's not a live. Defense waste doesn't brag to them about getting "Independence cards". Welfare fraud is live and breathing. Defesne fraud isn't.

It's easier to conceptualize.

[Hamlette]

16. see it first hand?

then why don't you report it? We have a hot line (every state does) to report welfare fraud. You don't have to identify yourself. We take every report VERY seriously and do a full investigation.

If you don't report it, you are as big a part of the problem as "they" are.

[Diogenes2]

15. Welfare fraud

There are always going to be a few hucksters & wheeler-dealers who game the system & rip off a few undeserved bucks. This is all totally penny ante & nickel & dime compared to the billions this administration & its cronies are hustling off with 24/7. Get real!!!!

[Skittles]

9. so freaking brainwashed

she is a selfish, greedy pig, a perfect conservative

[Brewman_Jax]

17. Remind them about corporate welfare

and watch the wheels grind to a halt and their blood pressure go up. :evilgrin:

Cite the vast amount of money that corporations don't pay, which is a drop in the bucket relative to welfare fraud.

Even better, ask if fraud is so bad, why isn't Ken Lay (or other favorite CEO) in prison? :shrug:

Works every time. :thumbsup: