Black Bloc:

[Robb]

[Mattforclark]

1. Violent protest

Is not acceptable. Nonviolent protest is not only acceptable, but a sign democratic opposition.

So I wholeheartedly denounce the Black Bloc but support the peaceful protesters alongside them. The Black Bloc gives nonviolent protesters a bad name.

[morgan2]

3. idiotic

there is a time when violence is necessary. If everyone who was "good" was non violent, the people who were "bad" would run the world without question. Nonviolence can work in many instances and should be a tried, but there is always a point where one has to fight back.

[psychopomp]

6. Non-violence as a viable means of protest

has not been discredited, only not widely-enough supported. When more start to march and passively resist Americans will snap out of their fear and fight for peace.

[Mattforclark]

10. The point when violent protest is acceptable

is when, and only when, non-violent protest is illegal and/or prevented.

[el_gato]

12. I refer you to miami

[radwriter0555]

2. What is the black bloc?

The black caucus?

[Character Assassin]

4. A bunch of clowns

[Terwilliger]

16. who've done more to illuminate the WTO and world-trade organizations

than anybody else has

Oh, I know...Libertarians love the absolute "free market"...these crazy Marxists protesting world governance through capitalist hegemony!

[Character Assassin]

19. What a charmingly quaint and yet bracingly ignornant opinion.

Regardless of whatever fantasy you seem to have cooked up in your head, no, 'illuminating' the WTO is meaningless without further clarification and all evidence I've seen indicates that they haven't been the party most responsible for exposing certain details about it.

Oh, I know...Libertarians love the absolute "free market"...these crazy Marxists protesting world governance through capitalist hegemony!

While you're busying ramming your other foot into your mouth, may I just say I wouldn't know anything about that. I'm a libertarian, not a Libertarian.

Any other pointless canards you'd like to offer the viewing audience?

[Terwilliger]

21. you keep claiming that, it just might become true

that doesn't mean you're not a "Libertarian"

Regardless of whatever fantasy you seem to have cooked up in your head, no, 'illuminating' the WTO is meaningless without further clarification and all evidence I've seen indicates that they haven't been the party most responsible for exposing certain details about it.

Exposing certain details that no one would pay attention to without some mainstream media coverage. No protests...no media coverage. While that in itself may be totally disgusting, it is true.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Character Assassin]

29. I've yet to ever see you substantiate a contention

Much like the one you just made.

The more things change....

[el_gato]

31. You prove my assertions in this very thread

all you can do is call people names and make inflammatory comments

[Character Assassin]

36. Wrong again.

Someone makes an assertion, followed by an inflammatory, ignorant attempt at a jibe. I respond with

'illuminating' the WTO is meaningless without further clarification and all evidence I've seen indicates that they haven't been the party most responsible for exposing certain details about it.

You mistake this for 'all you can do is call people names'.

The problem here is quite clear.

[el_gato]

38. I'm laughing at you now

and I don't have time to waste on you anymore

[Character Assassin]

42. You have my most sincere pity

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robb]

7. self-styled "anarchists"

who seem to take direct action literally. Often denounced as "spoilers", they tend to arrive at protests with few good intentions -- they fight back, and even start fights, with police.

Although, without them, we wouldn't have this photo of the man leaping off the flagpole at the Navy Memorial during *'s inaugural parade. I guess he had just hung some non-standard :) flag, and lept over the cops and into the arms of his buddies:

Story from DC Indymedia here.

[htuttle]

5. What they need down there in Miami today...

...is more Wombles, ie., the 'padded bloc'.

http://www.radio4all.org/aia/act_wombles.html

[el_gato]

8. they are realists

the cops are out to physically destroy all dissent peaceful or not

take a look at miami

we do not live in a free democratic country

no matter how deep in the sand you bury your head the facts are plain to see

[Classical_Liberal]

I think they are disruptors, and right wingers

trying to make protesters look bad.

[Webster Green]

9. Ahead of the curve....

Like ELF. How much will it take to push YOU over the edge. A victory by the chimp in '04 will surely swell their ranks. How about 8 years of Jeb after that? Would that do it for you? They hate the cops, and they want to push the envelope. There is no such thing as a free speech zone. This whole country is a free speech zone.

[Logansquare]

11. One got into a shoving match with an 60ish maintainance worker

in Chicago this spring--saw it myself. The janitor was probably upset because this idiot had just spray-painted on his building. Imagine that, young anarchists, low-wage workers have to clean up your impressive tagging. In addition, a group of them linked arms and rushed through a crowd of peaceful protestors, scattering all of us, including folks with baby carriages. They seemed intent on turning a peaceful protest into a free-for-all. A bunch of white, young dorks, most of whom will return to their suburban roots in a few years.

[TexasMexican]

13. "Those protesters got what they deserved."

Dont be suprised if thats what most Americans will say when the police start killing protesters because of them.

In the minds of most Americans they easily group together violent and non-violent protesters, because they all look the same to them.

Myself I'm definately believe there are things worth fighting, killing, and even dying for, but I dont think its worth it in a mob situation (like most protests now at days are). You will just end up getting alot of innocent people killed.

[prolesunited]

43. Have you actually BEEN to any protests lately?

I've been to a number of them in Chicago and most recently in D.C. I have never seen ANY violence or anything that resemble a mob situation.

"I dont think its worth it in a mob situation (like most protests now at days are)" <-- This statement is patently false and unless you've been there, I hardly think you are in a position to make this assertion.

Check out my protest pics. Look how many surprisingly "normal" people you see in the crowd. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

http://homepage.mac.com/prolesunited/PhotoAlbum35.html

http://homepage.mac.com/prolesunited/PhotoAlbum51.html

[redqueen]

14. Absolutely 100% opposed to that group.

I think they should be banned from marches and be forced to go out on their own.

Our goal is peace. Violence will never achieve peace.

Plus I strongly suspect they're a bunch of tools manipulated by "fill in the blank" to discredit REAL protestors. :)

[Terwilliger]

17. If there had been peaceful protests at all these meetings since 1999....

we NEVER would have heard about them at all

[redqueen]

20. Not exactly.

Those who depend on mass media would never have heard about them.

Those of us who go to independent media would have.

Additionally, those who depend on mass media would not now be of the opinion that people who demonstrate are a bunch of violent thugs.

If they want to do something, they should be knocking on doors or handing out flyers.

Making a good impression and raising awareness with an extra 2 percent of the populace would be much better than helping the right to discredit all protesters, and sour the mass-media-watching public on protests in general.

[Terwilliger]

23. yes, and how much American opinion is shaped by alternative media?

very, very little...it's ranks may be growing, but mainstream media has become even worse...yet most still rely on those sources for their "news"

I'm not talking about leftists who are active in politics...it seems quite obvious that they would have non-mainstream sources of information.

But again, without anything happening at these protests, they wouldn't be covered. If they were, they'd be shown as pleasant background for the main story about how the FTAA is "good for America"

It may not be the most positive light on the protests...but it's light.

[redqueen]

26. I don't know, Terwilliger

Sometimes I border on thinking that protests are a giant waste of time.

They eat up so much time and energy, and they're mostly ignored.

I guess I'm more of a personal kind of person. I think I can make more of a difference by talking with a couple dozen people in my hometown, try to connect with them personally, and give them some materials, something to get them started.

IMO I think that kind of 'protest' might go a much longer way towards not only enlightening those who depend too much on mass media, as well as enlightening them on how much the media lies to them! Double points! :)

[Terwilliger]

35. You don't have to tell me

I particpated in 12 demonstrations from April 2002 to October, and the Bushies et al just go right on, swimming downriver into oblivion. For as much as I want them to be more effective, I know they're not. Remember, anti-war protests got virtually no coverage until February, and only because there were SOOO many people involved.

As to what you would do? It's not that I'm criticizing your grassroots effort...it's just not the way it works for everybody. The only way to enlighten some is to give them the history of the world and a Chomsky-esque examination of American foreign policy in a very short amount of time, and that won't happen anyway.

It's starting to look like the only truly effective way to convert opinion in this country is to get a mass media outlet to broadcast it on.

[redqueen]

41. Exactly. Ignored.

Those that already knew were encouraged, but most likely no new advocates were gained.

As to the history / Chomsky thing... that's a bit of a large bite. I've never been out to change the world all at one go. I go issue by issue.

What you said about mass media is spot on. Why Soros doesn't team up with Gore or Beatty or Streisand an djust buy & launch a satellite for the PEOPLE is beyond me. And a little disturbing as well. Are they really advocates? Who knows? Should we even care? I don't think so, because IMO we have to stop waiting for acknowledgement and acceptance, and start converting the people, one at a time.

[Terwilliger]

15. support them with reservations about tactics

not really trepidation, because I know what they''re basically all about

[mmm]

18. Never heard of them before today

where the hell have I been?

[slackdude]

22. Corporate property destruction is not violence

Why are anti-globalists so concerned with the property of globalizing corporations? It's not like the Black Bloc are going and beating people up. These companies are responsible for the economic conditions that breed terrorism in their global race for the bottom. I for one would like to see more trashing of corporate property. There is a war going on, folks. Do you want global corporate capitalist fascism to win over fair trade, democracy for the people and economic justice? Is chanting and waving signs going to beat them? Let's stop demonizing our allies who choose more radical tactics. We're all fighting for the same thing here. Why lose sleep over some broken windows at Starbucks or McDonalds?

[redqueen]

30. My concern is not their destruction of property.

My concern is how this helps the establishment cement the meme in the minds of the mass media consumer that this is how demonstrators act.

If people have no idea how much they are lied to by mass media, if they're under the impression that the system works and is fair, they're going to automatically tune out any time there's a protest.

No matter what the cause -- Iraq, Energy bill, FTAA, whatever -- lots and lots of people will write it off, thinking that those protesting are a bunch of idiots. Not that using destruction to make a point makes one an idiot... that's a whole different argument.

My main concern is that we are turning off a whole huge segment of the population that we could be turning to our side. Many people share the same concerns, but don't have a grasp of the whole situation.

Go knock on their door, hand them some information, have a conversation about free trade, or the war, or whatever... make a face-to-face attempt to convert people, while simultaneously informing them of how misled they are by the media, and IMO you've done MUCH more good than standing in a street and shouting or holding a sign will do. Just my opinion, though. :)

[el_gato]

39. the media will smear anybody who is against corporate rule

I don't care if you lick their boots as a protest method they will still spit on you.

At least the black bloc acknowledges this.

[redqueen]

40. That's why I tend to think protests are a wasted effort.

We have to either get our own media (Clinton dropped the ball so...)

Or do an end run around the media -- grassroots outreach.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Bullcrap

PEOPLE own that property. Destruction of property is violence.

I love it when some college puke goes and trashes a store and says he is giving the finger to corporate America. IN REALITY, he is harming small business and costing people jobs.

I will say this, if people attack property, I hope they find lots of police there.

[Tinoire]

24. Wholeheartedly support the real ones!

They saved my butt once and I am forever grateful to them.

People should bear in mind that there is nothing to prevent Ashcroft's goons from putting a black bandana over their face and "passing" as part of the Black Bloc.

I wholeheartedly support them. It's just too bad the boat needs to be rocked. Candlelight vigils are simply not going to do the trick. Neither is voting in another pro-Establishment Republocrat.

[veganwitch]

25. back up.

its alot easier laying down in front of the police, hand them flowers etc. when you know you got 20, 30, 2 even, black blocers ready "rise up, fight back" if the police step over the line.

i heart black bloc

[Robb]

34. This was often the role of the Panther Party

IIRC. I'm not sure BB is particularly faithful to the idea, however.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

32. Why support agent provacateurs sent by the FBI?

Black blocks are young stupid kids led by an FBI officer or some leader of a policial cult in order to justify police brutality. Want to spot the cop? Look for the one suggesting illegal and violent activities.

[redqueen]

33. heh heh heh

That's kind of my impression too... a bunch of young, impressionable folks used by the establishment.

[Terwilliger]

37. that's a simplistic assessment of a LOT of people

today's young stupid kids are tomorrow's Presidents of the United States

the Black Bloc knows all about agent provacateurs...they have to deal with them all the time

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. A black bloc solution

OK, you either accept that you want violent or non-violent protest. You can't have it both ways.

Personally, I strongly advocate non-violent protest. But if the black bloc goes nuts, it will turn violent. That means they need to be shut down, cut off and crushed.

I recommend every protest appoint a security committee to keep the protest in line and operating in a way that the police will not be able to complain about. Give these people arm bands or such. Make sure they are very large, very strong people. Make sure there are enough of them and use them to isolate the black bloc morons. Then, if the black bloc causes trouble, literally grab them, make a citizen's arrest and turn them in to the police.

If we are peaceful and orderly and don't tolerate this crap we will get noticed more than if we don't.