The Miami protest has created a dilemma. Protestors were shot...

[JanMichael]

...with rubber bullets as well as man-handled and gassed. The vast majority were non-confrontational, non-violent, American Citizens. We had a caller on the Guy James Show today that was middle aged, female, and shot in the chest (In her breast ok?) with a rubber projectile! It was basically a Police Riot, what is going on here?!

So here's the dilemma:

1. People have the Right to Protest.

2. The new national (I say this due to the 8 million in the Iraq bill that paid for the Miami conferance "Defence") paradigm, as of last week, for police behavior is one of direct violent action against any/all protestors regardless of political affiliation, age, or actions.

3. I see this as a warning to future protestors. The police WILL be aggressive now, people WILL get hurt, some WILL die (FYI: Rubber bullets can kill you. So can pepper spray if you have asthma) eventually.

4. The actions by our current government WILL leave Protests as one of the only true, effective, desirable, ways to express dissatisfaction with the state of the union. The media will not do it for us. They will happen again.

5. So there WILL be future protests (there is no choice), like this last week's activities, but the protestors now know what the "security" forces will do now that we have the new Miami Model.

















And finally this:



The dilemma? Tank-top and shorts to deal with the heavily armed thugs (many are unintentional thugs BTW)? I doubt it. Or more appropriate attire and other protective items?

My guess is that Protestors will start arriving at the protest sites more prepared for hostile Police actions which will probably encourage, because of their appearance, more immediate Police initiated hostile actions.

And so on and so on.

I HATE the term "Slippery slope" but man this sure looks like one to me...

[La_Serpiente]

1. Good Lord

what the hell is the police doing down there??!!!??? That is totally an excessive amount of force. That is fricking crazy.

We should send a e-mail to the county council members in Miami detailing the police brutality down there. I hope ABC News or someone does an expose on this.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

89. Big deal - this is no different than under Clinton

Robocops have been beating protestors since the early 1990s - this police riot was hardly worse than any others.

Protesting against NAFTA, GATT, "free trade agreements" and corporate power is guarenteed to get you beaten as far as I can tell. Not just the US, but Canada, the US, Asia, Europe and Africa.

[kentuck]

2. Damn ! If it looks like a police state and smells like a police state....

It's probably a police state. I think we have not accepted that reality yet.

[Eric J in MN]

3. the PETA model of protest

A couple of years ago, at a Victoria Secrets show, 6 PETA protestors walked onto the stage carrying anti-fur signs.

The 6 of them were arrested, but weren't clubbed or tear-gassed.

It got more tv coverage than the thousands of people in Miami.

Ideally, there would be no violence against thousands of protestors; if our Constitutional rights were respected, there would be no violence against thousands of protestors.

But given the actual situation of police brutality at massive protests,
perhaps opponents of Free Trade agreeements should try to emulate PETA in finding ways for a small number of protestors to get a massive amount of coverage.

[JanMichael]

5. That's the other dilemma.

Do we capitualte (To the violence directed at us and the 1st Amendment) and seek out safe ways to protest? Basically avoiding direct confrontation?

Or...Should we do both? Nothing says we can't do both. I like the PETA approach, it's safer and probably gets a different type of media reaction.

Good suggestion:-)

[Eric J in MN]

11. doing the most good with the fewest protestors being brutalized

I am suggesting changing behavior on account of police brutality.

If you can get more coverage some other way, and protestors aren't clubbed and tear-gassed, I think it makes more sense to use a PETA style approach.

[JanMichael]

14. If we stop all mass protests then it's over.

They win, game over, collect the equipment and go home.

Seriously, I refuse (regardless of their posturing) to give up my Right to assemble against these assholes with thousands of other like minded people.

We don't have much as individuals to use as tools to express our views. Voting? That's become a joke. Write letters? I'm getting carpel tunnel.

[sexybomber]

111. A more apropriate analogy

If we stop all mass protests, Sauron gets the One Ring and the whole world is royally f***ed.

[foo_bar]

114. that's a little hyperbolic

PETA and Adbusters have the right idea regarding "culture jamming". You have to twist the mass media to your advantage (or Saruman gets the Palantir!), else you're a virtuous Cluckinich going bawk-bawk to the chicken little tabernacle. What good is marching in place if nobody reports it? What good is boycotting TV interviews if you have to find out about it on the internet? We can't beat them with good intentions, the only way to win in a capitalist system is to make a tastier product.

[DBoon]

19. Think NRA

We have a constitutional right to protest. Period.

(Think NRA = NRA believes we have a constitutional right ot individually own firearms, they don't dicker about whether exercising that right will "provoke" anyone. Seems to work for them.)

[JanMichael]

25. I can dig that.

I can also dig the right to arm myself to the teeth. Not that I'm paranoid or anything but...I am:-)

[kentuck]

16. I've thought about that point also....

Perhaps we should try and split up into cells a dozen or so people and cover more area rather than gathering in one mass - although it is more impressive when everyone marches together but it doesn't matter how many march, they will lie about the number anyway... The advantage of marching in cells and meeting up at a designated area would be that it would confuse the police and the authorities.

[JanMichael]

17. Let's multi-task!

I love the idea of protest "teams" doing media friendly activities!

I also demand the right to assemble en masse.

[Bucky]

58. Have to disagree. Confusing cops is dangerous. Try to co-op w/ them

The advantage of marching in cells and meeting up at a designated area would be that it would confuse the police and the authorities

Trying to confuse the police is a bad idea. Instead, we should cooperate with the police prior to the demonstrations.

At first it seems stupid to say cooperate with the police, let them know the grand plan, give them head counts and names of leaders. But keep in mind that altho the disturbing pictures from Miami look like a police state, in fact we are not actually in a police state. By treating the matter as a lawful, cooperative political matter, you actually defang the impulse by some police to crack down on any percieved "anti-social" behavior.

But of course opposing a stupid, pointless, unjustified war is anything but anti-social.

If you treat the protests like a guerilla military action (planning cells, secret rendezvous, clandestine leadership positions), you'll encourage the cops to escalate their controls, which means escalating their violence, which means people could really get hurt--possibly shot, maimed, or killed. I would hope that peaceful resistance to the war means doing things to keep people from getting hurt or maimed or killed, either in Iraq or the United States.

Civil disobedience should be about civility and peace movements must embody the principles of a peaceful, open, civil society.

[FlaGranny]

77. That didn't work - the teacher's union

and other union members who went to the protests in Miami met for two months with the Miami police, planning for the march. Bottom line: the city of Miami and the police LIED. These protestors, school teachers, electricians, etc., etc., from our community were tear gassed and beaten in Miami practically by their own neighbors. They clearly tried to follow the rules, identified themselves, and it made no difference.

[JanMichael]

86. Ie. The dilemma. It's going to happen whether we want it to or not.

Because they want it to.

[7th_Sephiroth]

68. somewhere on here, someone mentioned getting a million people

we can do it, but it would require alot of money, an ad campaign, and travel money, if every DUer pulled together, and with help from other similar websites and message boards it can be done

[RC]

4. Look at the last picture.

The cop(?) in the middle. He is giving the photographer the finger. That is not a professional gesture. And these guys are supposed to serve and protect?

[JanMichael]

7. They Serve the Corporations and Protect their Assets.

Did you think that meant the People?!

Nothing to see here, move on.

[L.A.dweller]

13. KPFK reported that

part of the $87 billion that was demanded by Bush was given to the Miami police force for this event.
I couldn't find a link to post here.

[A HERETIC I AM]

51. I thought he was giving the finger also, but he isnt...look again...

He has his right hand on the handle portion of his night stick. That style club has a handle perpendicular to the main shaft near one end.

[Salviati]

108. Yeah, the one on the right is, but...

the one in the center with his arm pointing vertically is giving the camera the finger.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

6. I was traveling the past couple of days-what was this demonstration about?

This is terrible! I am going to write an LTTE about his to Florida newspapers.

I guess this is what we have to look forward too in NYC during the Republican convention!

[Eric J in MN]

9. it was against NAFTA expansion to other countries (nt)

nt

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. Thanks-I just googled it.

[Ksec]

8. Jeebus. This is getting bad

Corporate soldiers are protecting their masters.

[JanMichael]

12. The irony? Most are Union members.

Yeah, that's irony.

[JanMichael]

18. Look up! Most cops are union! That's the truly crazy point.

Shooting those who wish to defend other Unions...

[slaveplanet]

64. Last time I checked the Constitution

Sheriffs were sposed to be elected in this here country!

[dmr]

69. The Miami-Dade County PD serves also as the county Sheriff's dept

.

[slaveplanet]

63. These guys aint union

They're Pinkerton....shit do you see a badge anywhere? my best guess Dyncorp,or Wackenhut...anyway if the are union, they aint getiing outsourced in the near future and they damn well know it.

[JanMichael]

66. Dude, they're almost all Miami/Dade cops plus Fl Hwy Patrol...

...and other nearby municipalities/counties.

I know of one trooper for fact. They gave them generic riot-gear uniforms.

They couldn't all wear their own uniforms.

here's a photo that you posted:

[slaveplanet]

74. GMAB- The whole reason I posted that pic is

To show what a mockery it is to plant 'Sheriff' across their chest.

There is one county Sheriff and the rest are deputies. Putting on a goon suit and Jackboots, stenciling sheriff on it with a can of white spray paint is a sham & a travesty to the storied title of 'Sheriff'. It seems to me like nothing more than "Police State Tactics 101"-make the Sheriff and the police seem like equals to the sheeple. There is a reason they call it NEW world order you know:

In 1682, the City of London and County of Middlesex were deeply
concerned with moves by the Crown that would deprive
them of the right to elect their sheriffs
(City of London's Plea to the Quo Warranto..., 1682).
Entreaties to the Court cite a long history going back to the
Magna Carta and further, to "time beyond the memory of Man"
Sheriffs achieved the pinnacle of their power after the
Norman Conquest of England in 1066. Shires were transformed into
counties, and the earl and bishop stripped of many of their
former powers. This void in authority was filled by the enhanced
power of the sheriff, now the preeminent county official
http://www.hamline.edu/~rhodsdon/elect.html

Dade loves to do things different:
In Dade County, the sheriff is appointed by the county
executive (K. Knowles, personal communication, October 27, 1995;
B. Alport, personal communication, October 27, 1995). Dade
county is a Home Rule County and has a county code. The position
of sheriff changed from elected to appointed in 1958 (K. Knowles,
1995). The sheriff is appointed by the county manager and serves
at the pleasure of the county manager (B. Alport, 1995). Dade
County government is undergoing a restructuring. At present it
has 13 elected county commissioners and there is no county mayor
or elected county executive. After the restructuring in November
of 1996, they will emerge with a strong county mayor system of
government (B. Alport, 1995).
Dade County is unique in many ways relative to the rest of
Florida. There are 66 counties in Florida, and, in 65 of 66 of
those counties, the sheriff is elected. In a similar vein, in 65
of the 66 counties, the chief election official is elected, but
in Dade County it is an appointed position. There are also
several other positions that are appointed in Dade County and
elected in the other counties of Florida (B. Alport, 1995)

I could go into lots of reasons why a sheriff needs to be elected by the populus
but here's one big one:
The first policy reason is one of checks and balances.
The sheriff is an elected county official directly responsible to
the citizens which protects from undue influence by members of
the county board or by other county officials. There are also
several checks upon the unfettered discretion of the sheriff.

As of 1995 there were only 3 county's nationwide:
In three counties, Dade County, Denver County, Colorado, and
the county in which Seattle, Washington (King County) is located
the sheriffs are appointed (B. Moser, personal communication,
October 6, 1995). In at least two of those counties, the
appointment is done by the county executive and the sheriff
serves at the pleasure of that executive (K. Knowles, personal
communication, October 27, 1995)

As for your proof that it's all police and Highway Patrol, you can't convince me of that anymore than a protester could identify the goon wearing a black ski-mask that just hit him upside the head. The police state is mocking us serfs , No badges, masked marauders that do the dirty work and hand the arrestees off to the local PD for processing. I wouldn't put anything past John Timoney. Timoney was police commissioner in Philadelphia during the 2000 Republican National Convention, when more than 400 demonstrators were arrested. if you go here:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6292035.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp.. while I don't doubt they have tha manpower to do it without these. It says they're going to use Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission officers and other agencies.

Hmm....'Other Agencies' . Sounds like the perfect excuse to give those $10 an hour Wakenhut prison guards, a chance to pick up a few extra bucks, and polish up on their job skills at the same time.

[Stupdworld]

15. Pwn3d

that fourth one down looks like a scene from counterstrike!

a little over the top for "counter-terrorists win" dontchathink?

[EV1Ltimm]

94. omg wallhack!!!!!!111

[sexybomber]

112. Oh come on.

It was a bad map. All the weapons were near the police spawn points. Plus the protesters probably had lag like woah. Completely unfair. I demand a fair rematch.

[enough]

20. A dilemma, a reality

Yes, Janmichel,

"It was basically a Police Riot, what is going on here?!"

This cannot be won with an escalation of "preparedness" on the part of the protesters. The more they (we) come prepared for violence, the more violence we will get. And the more the protesters will be branded as BAD GUYS in the media and the popular mind. This was done with great effect before Miami. It's part of why the media felt free to cover the event so unseriously.

This has to be fought on another level -- with vocal objection and vocal nonviolent non-tolerance by all of us all over the country to the media, legislators, municipal officials, police commissioners, and everyone else we can think of calling and writing to. We have to keep upholding the old assumptions of freedom of speech, assembly, etc. Only by harkening to those truths will this be momentarily stopped once again. The Constitution makes a great lifeboat when the ship is blowing apart and sinking.

And when the media doesn't cover it, we need to double our efforts, so they know that somebody is still watching. We do not depend on the media. If they aren't interested in reality, they are irrelevant.

We need to keep showing up at protests in our ordinary clothes. It is our right.

[JanMichael]

21. You've pointed out my "Slippery Slope" belief.

And I agree with the other alternatives as well.

My concern, I guess this is personal, but I can't bear to see undefended people so brutalized.

I know that direct confrontation (at this time) is a losing proposition but maybe we could use technology to prvent these injuries?

It'd be easy to set up a system where people phone in blocked streets to a central number that maps (easy GIS stuff, it's what I do) out alternative paths. Thereby preventing direct, surprise, collisions in urban areas.

There's no reason to go in blind.

[ConsAreLiars]

34. Killer bee costumes?

In keeping with my other comments, I agree that that defensive padding, etc. seem advisable for some, but matching the Darth Vader costumes as a defensive measure would be a mistake. BlackBanders can do what they will, but if the images showing these assaults on undefended like posted in this thread (should they pass through the mass media) don't get the message to people, then images of cops gassing and shooting mickey mouse and porky pig might.

[JanMichael]

37. No! I was talking about using GIS capabilities to prevent needless...

...confrontations.

Simply technology used to avoid the fascist tools.

Although Bee Suits would be cute.

[Dirk39]

22. Two more pictures from indymedia in Germany:

the munition that was shot in peoples face



We have to stop this,
Dirk

[JanMichael]

24. That second shot is ugly.

I don't care what the hog-tied (close enough) guy did.

It's vulgar.

[Aidoneus]

29. with a big smile on their faces, no less

Hopefully somebody caught that on video for a TV show called "When Stormtroopers Run Wild".
(still in the embryonic phase, as a sister show to mix parts of COPS and When Animals Attack)

[Dirk39]

33. More pictures and videos...

american justice

Among the videos is a Corporate media video with reporter stating that their own photographer was hit and camera broken, but it's large.
Dirk

[funkyflathead]

23. Shotguns with beanbag rounds............

Hit center mass close range they can kill you.

All those cops with shotguns make me sick.

[Bozita]

26. "There ought to be limits to freedom" -- GW Bush on May 21, 1999

This thread reminded me of that quote.

Then there's that other statement by Dumbya, "They hate us for our freedom."

Who is us? Who is they?

[mikehiggins]

27. The face of things to come

This is it, folks. As long as this administration is in power this is how ALL demonstrations are likely to be dealt with.

The GOPCon next September in NYC is going to be like this x10 with the NYPD, the NYS Police, the FBI and the Secret Service all in operation on the streets of New York. They will NOT allow peaceful demonstrations anywhere near the GOPCon and those who try to bring the word to the Repugs will get their asses beat.

And the only coverage you'll get will be as terrorist supporters and unAmericans.

If you can't put a million people on the streets of Manhattan during that time you'll be much better off listening to my suggestion that I've posted before whenever this topic came up.

Simply put, stay home and work to elect the Democratic candidate in your local area. Hold rallies, blood drives, concerts, whatever. Stay away from NYC next September unless you have a real need to have your head split and spend a few days or more with your hands tiewrapped together sitting on the grass at Shea Stadium until the powers-that-be see fit to release you.

Look at Miami and learn.

[JanMichael]

28. What if we/you CAN put a million people on the streets?

What then?

Just curious.

On a side note: I just don't get your constant complaints against the simple act of exercising our 1st Amendment Rights?:shrug:

[funkyflathead]

30. Then the M-60 comes out and they start mowing us down n/t

[JanMichael]

32. I hate to say this.

But...If it happens it happens. EDIT: It's an integral componant of our Socal Contract. So If we're "Mowed Down" the "game" is indeed OVER. I doubt it would though. However if it did then the fascists would have about 6 months left...

PS~ This is ALL hypothetical BTW:-)

[mikehiggins]

62. A million is too many

for NYPD to handle. I doubt it can be done but that would be a movement well worth seeing.

As to what you take as my complaints, what I am talking about is the need to find alternatives to lining up for the cops to smack us. The fact that we have an "absolute" right to peaceful protest does not necessarily require that we mount a children's crusade, marching into the teeth of the opposition, singing songs and chanting "the whole world is watching"

Well, they aren't, and they won't. All anyone will actually see will be violent clashes between the police and protestors, with a few feeble mentions of those "peaceful" marchers who did what they were told.

Better, in my view, to switch tactics and put our efforts where they may actually do some good; on the local level doing things that will gain credibility for our efforts and accomplish some social good.

And if we can steal the spotlight from the coronation to some degree that would be nice too. However, the fact is, at least IMHO, that the big story in NYC next September will be the conflict outside the Garden (there certainly will not be any inside) and if we take that away from the GOP what will they have left?

There is no reason to play THEIR game, is there?

[ConsAreLiars]

31. There's a history to this, of course.

Going long back, as you know.

But this current wave of using massive police powers began most clearly under Clinton in Seattle: Load this page and hit the "Photos from the Front" (javascript) link http://www.gonzomatic.com/activism/seattle99.html

I suspect that Asscrapt's national tour speaking to pre-screened LEOs was targetted at mobilizing for massive repression, but I haven't come across any whistle-blowers reports, only inference. Certainly the LEIU nat'l conference had this on its agenda: http://nobigbrother.net/article.php?list=type&type=19

As for tactics, the more the better. My own preference would be to see groups like the Raging Grannies or the Infernal Noise Brigade and Anti-Fascist Marching Band or a parade of sea turtles or any creative good-vibes minstrel troupe or puppetteers appear unexpectedly at high-traffic locations. The freeway overpass banner hangers are another. There are many possibilities for this sort of guerilla art and semi-spontaneous celebrations of the human spirit. The questionW campaign was another, although happily the meme seems to have spread faster than the campaign. american stranger, nostamj, angka and all DUers gave the thing a mighty push, so did Dean and now many Dems, athough there may be a time when the "?" symbol becomes a sign of democratic resistance....

But, I digress --- :toast:

[Dirk39]

35. By any means, if you detect people like the ones shown in the...

disgusting picture, I even feel disgusted to look at or even post, inform me immediately: they hate our freedom:




Dirk

[lostnfound]

92. A Jedi in pink. Nice. n/t

[bpilgrim]

36. Did you post these pictures in the GFP archive?

I would like to encourage DU'ers to post all protest pictures there for archival purposes and so they will be easy to find for other folks in the future...
http://bbs.globalfreepress.com/coppermine

btw: this isn't the first time they shot and protesters since shrub took over or before...
see protest pics since the neoCONs took the helm...
http://bbs.globalfreepress.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=search&type=full&search=protest

:hi:

peace

[JanMichael]

39. I grabbed them from your earlier thread.

Or another Miami Cop riot thread.

How's your night going?

[bpilgrim]

45. cool

just try'n to pass the word. :hi:

not bad was busy earlier but i'm takin a break right now reading some news and chill'n on DU :hi:

peace

[BiggJawn]

38. In other news, "Country Club" Franks says Constitution on it's way "out"..

And CBS radio picked up the story today of General "Country Club" and his interview in "Stogie Sucker" (Cigar Afficienado)
about how he envisioned the Constitution "being replaced by 'Military Rule' if there was a WMD attack on US soil..."

On top of all the other problems I have to struggle with, now it looks like we may have to find out for real how good a job they're gonna do with sealing the borders...

I'd bet that "Imperial Storm Trooper" armour can be defeated...

[sexybomber]

113. uh...

That stormtrooper armor's pretty tough stuff. I think it repels rocks. But then again, if someone throws a rock, the response from the police is likely to be lethal.

[ninkasi]

40. And let's hope we don't have another Kent State...

How many of you are old enough to remember the shock the nation felt when those college students were killed by the Ohio National Guard? I'm afraid that's where we're headed...

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/05/04/loc_ohiodate0504.html

If you're not familiar with it, the above link gives the information.

[Dirk39]

41. I'm 39 years old and live in Germany...

is this the event that inspired the Neil Young (CSNY) song about Ohio? just remember listening to it and trying to translate the lyrics, when I was about 13. This is how America spoiled me...
We will take this world back on a quiet day,
Dirk

[Lars39]

43. yes. eom

[SoCalDem]

48. CSNY lyrics.. Ohio & others

http://www.geocities.com/bennies12/CSNY.html


Ohio

Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio.
Gotta get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down. Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Gotta get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down. Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio,
four dead in Ohio, four dead in Ohio, four dead in Ohio, how many more?
Four dead in Ohio, four dead in Ohio, four dead in Ohio, home many more?

[JanMichael]

53. Mike Mills (REM) sang that, with everyone else singing backup, at the...

..."Tell Us The Truth" concert this last Monday in Tampa.

He changed the words though from "Nixon" to "Bush"...

[Matilda]

120. I remember.

And I think it marked the beginning of the downward slide for Nixon.

[Renew Deal]

42. This happened because Miami wasn't ready.

When the WTO came to NY, the NYPD had the place covered. They were out in force and visible. There was no riot and no real trouble. The NYPD prevented it. Then again, they have a reputation for busting heads. Either way, they got ahead of the problems and it was an good experience for most.

[JanMichael]

44. They had enough time to include funding in the Iraq Bill.

I pretty sure that they knew what was up.

Matter of fact there's a DU'er here that has a relative that spent a week of special training just for this event. A month ago AND he's a Highway Patrolman based in Tallahassee.

They knew.

[Eric J in MN]

46. how about handing out literature individually instead

What if instead of converging on Miami and being brutalized by police, the participants each stayed in their own cities and individually handed literature against NAFTA expansion to 100 people there?

No one gets clubbed or tear-gassed, and about as many people are reached, given the minimal media coverage of the Miami protest.

[JanMichael]

49. How about both!

Look, the physical demonstration is an amazing Human activity, it will never be nullified by idiot fascists.

Admittedly people get hurt but hell, I saw two accidents coming home from Naples tonight. In those people got hurt driving. Doesn't matter why, they were in a car accident.

On another note, almost every major social movement that I know of had thousands of individuals massing together on the street. Letter writers play a BIG part but at some point the leather must hit the pavement.

[Eric J in MN]

60. I don't think injuries from other causes is relevant

The number of people who will be injured in car accidents in 2003 is much greater than the number of protestors who will be clubbed by the police.

But I don't think one has anything to do with another.

We can support car safety and also support finding ways to get out our message without police brutality.

[Dirk39]

56. We have to fight back, we can't let this happen

I'm against physical violence by any means, mostly out of a personal cowardice:-)
The german police is now equipped with the same weapons, among them a weapon, who shots 50.000 volt through your body. Where the hell do we live?
Allow me to be moderate, if I propose to change our economic-politics 100% within our constitution, I'm not allowed to say this loud and clear? I should simply stay at home, secretly submitting leaflets to my neighbours?
Do they expect Osama Bin Ladden to join me in the streets? Or are they afraid, that Osama stays at home and I represent nothing but reason, democrazy, thinking and freedom?
And they hate me for our freedom!
Dirk

[slaveplanet]

47. OK OK Check these Out

go to http://ftaaimc.org/images/2003/11/ and see the rest, there's many

and don't forget - Jeb signed an executive order Placing Florida under martial law on 9/7/2001. This has been kept in effect.

Are you beginning to understand just what Tommy Franks is talking about....Wake up people

[Lars39]

50. I wondered about the martial law; always wondered if it was rescinded.

Shocking pics. For some reason the one with the nerdy guy backed up to the wall strikes a nerve. I can't help but wonder if he got beat up, too. :(

[slaveplanet]

57. I believe he's resigned it

every year. remember these folks look like they may have avoided the Hospital. Many more went there though.
The Jackboots even opened the door to the Wellness Center and peppered the Medics....

Medic Press Release

Jeremy Savage , 11.21.2003 19:25

November 21, 2003 (Miami). The street medic and clinician team providing medical support in conjunction with the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) protests
decried the violent police tactics employed Thursday, November 20, 2003...


PRESS RELEASE

Contact: Liz Highleyman, 415-305-0821


November 21, 2003 (Miami). The street medic and clinician team providing medical support in conjunction with the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) protests
decried the violent police tactics employed Thursday, November 20, 2003.

Street medics covering protests on Biscayne Boulevard near Flagler and elsewhere downtown assisted numerous injured activists. Hundreds were decontaminated and treated for the effects of pepper spray or tear gas, either on the streets or at the Wellness Center. Many others were treated for injuries caused by police baton blows or fired projectiles, including rubber and plastic bullets and chemical-filled pellets.

“I have worked in the emergency room and seen some horrible injuries,” said Eowyn Rieke, MD, a street medic and family practitioner from Boston working in the Wellness Center yesterday. “These injuries were among the worst I’ve ever seen.”

Street medics often found it difficult to provide care on the spot due to aggressive police tactics. “Every time we tried to stop and treat someone, we were overrun by police,” said Rob, an EMT from New York City. “Basically, we were picking up the walking wounded and trying to get them to a safe space.” Several medics reported being shot at as they tried to assist injured activists.

Clinicians staffing the Wellness Center treated an estimated 30 projectile injuries, including five to the face or head. Several protesters received stitches for lacerations. One activist sustained an open fracture to the forearm while trying to protect their face, while others sustained foot or ankle injuries. Some of the more seriously injured protesters were treated by Miami Emergency Medical Services or at area hospitals. Because many affected activists were not seen at the Wellness Center, clinicians were unable to give a total count of the number of injuries.

The activist medic and clinician team expressed particular concern about the tactics of police outside the Wellness Center late Thursday afternoon. While pushing a group of protesters up the street past the building, an officer fired a pepper spray gun directly through the door of the Wellness Center, where injured protesters were being treated, and a woman providing security at the center was pepper sprayed directly in the face.

“The police showed a total disregard for the health care space and the safety and wellbeing of our patients,” said Rieke.

[JanMichael]

52. Is this another cop shooting the finger?

If so then: Wow. I guess professional decorum is lost with some of these troglodytes...

[Bozita]

54. This is scary shit! ... Cops trying to incite.

The new Amerikkka.

They hate us for our freedom, do they?

[nolabels]

55. What the police are doing is Unlawful, but instead of confrontation

Is there any possibility of getting some of them police back on the people's side of any of this conflict? Some good things are going on in other parts of the world.

Shouldn't people try emulating what works instead of giving the ones looking for conflict what they want? A mirror image almost goes on at the other side of the globe and not a lot of people notice (or at least that how it seems to me). Anybody check out what happened here?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/23/wgeor23.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/11/23/ixnewstop.html

Georgians stage coup to oust Shevardnadze
By Julius Strauss in Tbilisi and Tom Parfitt
(Filed: 23/11/2003)


President Eduard Shevardnadze of Georgia was forced to flee his parliament yesterday after thousands of protesters overran the building and his state security forces abandoned him.

In dramatic scenes reminiscent of the ousting of Slobodan Milosevic in Belgrade three years ago, the former Soviet foreign minister and one-time darling of the West barely escaped with his life after being whisked away by his bodyguards.


Thousands of protesters stormed the Georgian parliament

Later, claiming he was the victim of a coup, he declared a state of emergency. Last night, his spokesman, Bondo Mdzinarashvili, said the army would take control if the newly elected parliament failed to approve his emergency order within 48 hours.

In such an event, "the army and the police would co-ordinate all state agencies to ensure the safety of the population, prevent a coup and would have the right to detain criminals", said Mr Mdzinarashvili
(snip)

[Dirk39]

59. I wish I could agree with you...

but couldn't you offer a better example? This one just makes me cry...
article
My first reaction was exaclty like yours.
"When James Baker was sent out to Georgia this past July to lecture its President, Eduard Shevardnadze, about the need to ensure that the upcoming parliamentary elections were "free and fair," it must have raised a lot of eyebrows. Eyebrows of the "you’ve got to be shitting me" variety.

James Baker? This is the same guy who Bush Jr. hired in 2000 to steal the Florida vote, handing the U.S. presidency over to a tool who lost by half a million votes. The way Baker railroaded Bush into the presidency has done more damage to American democracy than anything since Nixon and Watergate. Sending him into corrupt Georgia to demand that they have "free and fair elections" is like sending Yegor Gaidar into Iraq in order to advise them on privatization and the transition to a market economy – which Bush also did."


Dirk

[nolabels]

81. This was a democracy in action in that one, but if you need another.......

There is this one below. I was just thinking, isn't it easier to use intellect rather than brawn. I always hate to be reduced to the capacity of the aggressor. How could you ever take the moral high ground if have you have to operate on the level of the miss-informed people that are perpetuating it. We all know VERY FEW DID, but with agent provocateurs and such, you need to keep your wits about you at all times.

If us people on the side of moral conscience were smart, we would start having ceremonies, giving medals of honor to people who get brutalized by the state for peaceful protest. The reason I gave the first example was because it had showed how when people finally find out how bad things are, the numbers swell to large numbers quickly. I am not saying that what’s needed, but that's the factor that will make protest a lost factor if a moral high ground is not maintained. To protest, you must not be deterred, mitigated or compromised. Standing on principal for peoples rights and the good of the people is of the highest order.

The paradox that police and the rest that would undermine the majority of people presently is what we are learning how to deal with. Dropping the idea of symbolism, seeing the police just as people too, is the key. The police uniform is being used as weapon of intimidation which has nothing to do with the idea of “To serve and protect” That uniform and who it supposedly represents is getting lost in the shuffle. A greedy and corrupt side of the populace has now turned it into representing the subversive side because their cause or morals are not very defensible.

This leads me to conclude that we are dealing with a wounded animal, which means you must use intellect and try and make friends with, rather than use confrontation with them. What level exchange that takes on is really the question. Getting reduced to the animals’ level or lower will not help us.

Them people on the other side of the globe make me, at least, all that much more sure violence won't solve anything, and purposeful intent for good will solve a lot.

They give me much hope

http://csf.colorado.edu/bioregional/99/msg00412.html
(near the bottom)(snip)
At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using rubber bullets.
Miraculously, by then I had ten in my pocket. I could open a little market,
sell the things. They are everywhere. I and other people started giving
them
to delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're shooting "rubber"
bullets and lying about it." We showed them to the media. I guess enough
people and the media got the information because the Mayor made a new
statement then that they were using them. As if he hadn't known.

They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face of a guy next to
me, broke all his front teeth. When that happened I lost it. I forgot I was
supposed to be getting the news for all of you and I started yelling at the
cops, "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So this cop
aimed
his gun right at me. That was his answer. So I first put my hands in front
of
my face because I didn't want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to hell
with it. I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", you
know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the bombing in
Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, shoot! Here! Here's the
target!"
He didn't shoot me.

I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent people. They were
the
most non-violent people I have ever seen. Even when I was screaming at the
cop, this girl came up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is
non-violent."
These people were too much to believe. They must meditate all the time, I
don't know.

Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is baloney. Today (Wed.)
the protesters were causing absolutely no "trouble". In downtown the cops
had
people running who weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just
people going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The busses
weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to catch one with a driver
who could still see. I begged him to drive the old lady home - the driver
changed his route especially for her. If you want to find human decency,
stay
away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. They have some.
The
Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now he wouldn't know human decency if
it
came up and bit him.

So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who run this
country, and they are quite simply scum. There were people at work, people
with babies, they were all getting gassed because the government would not
allow an assembly of people speaking their minds. It is the same as what
happened in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government created
the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he says he supports
nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber bullets? And today they
outlawed
gas masks. They want to make sure everyone gets his money's worth.

Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the residential
neighborhoods. People in cafés were getting gassed and shot at, you could
hear it on the windows, bang, bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the street
to
go to his house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at the
cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then this other guys was
just
crossing the street to go home so the cops figured, might as well gas him
too. People got gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffeee
shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or something.

Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I mean after all,
it's just collateral damage..

***

Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade Organization, click on
SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW WORLD ORDER or go to
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm
If you're on AOL click here: <A
HREF="http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm">SEATTLE
AND
BEYOND</A>

If you would like to browse articles from Emperors-Clothes.com, click here
Or
go to: http://www.emperors-clothes.com or if you're on AOL <A
HREF="http://www.emperors-clothes.com/">Click here: The Emperors Clothes</A>
(snip)

[lostnfound]

93. Thank you for reminder: neoliberals about equal to the neocons..

when "free trade" is the issue.

Did the protestors shut down Cancun or Seattle talks? They certainly had an effect.

It's no accident that the most brutal treatment has been given to the anti-corporate globalization activists rather than to anti-war activists.

[nolabels]

121. Anti-corporate globalization is the only way we get to win

It seems to me to be that is the bigger battle and mostly will be only being able to have is success measured in incremental nuances. I hope us Humans can make it, but it looks like a long road to hoe.

Most wars appear to have their roots evolving from economic discrepancy, power over others or both. The world has become much too small for most of that type of thing now. Them moneyed interest can fight them wars but they can now only go backwards doing it

[slaveplanet]

61. If we even tried that

//President Eduard Shevardnadze of Georgia was forced to flee his parliament yesterday after thousands of protesters overran the building and his state security forces abandoned him.//

It's Ba Ba Boom time

and I don't mean for them...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. Some things never change

James Rector shot and killed by police, May 15, 1969


Abbie Hoffman on the fashionably dressed protestor:

DRESS

Most vamping is accompanied by clubbing, rough shoving and dragging, gassing and occasional buckshot or rifle fire. The clothing you wear should offer you the best protection possible, yet be light weight enough to allow you to be highly mobile. CS and CN are by far the most commonly employed tear gas dispersibles. Occasionally they are combined with pepper gas to give better results. Pepper gas is a nerve irritant that affects exposed areas of the skin. Clothing that is tight fitting and covers as much of the body surface as possible is advisable. This also offers some protection if you are dragged along the ground. Gloves come in handy as protection and if you want to pick up gas canisters and throw them back at the pigs or chuck them through a store window.

Your shoes should be high sneakers for running or boots for kicking. Hiking boots sold in army surplus stores serve both purposes and are your best selection for street action. Men should wear a jock strap or protective cup. Rib guards can be purchased for about $6.00 at any sporting goods store. Shoulder pads and leg pads are also available, but unless you expect heavy fighting and are used to wearing this clumsy street armor, you'll be better off without it.

HELMETS

Everyone should have a helmet. Your head sticks out above the swarming crowd and dents like a tin can. Protect it! The type of helmet you get depends on what you can afford and how often you'll be using it. The cheapest helmet available is a heavy steel tank model. This one is good because it offers ear protection and has a built-in suspension system to absorb the blow. It is also bullet proof. It's disadvantages are that it only comes in large sizes and is the heaviest thing you'll ever have on your head. It costs about $3.00. For $5.00 you can get a Civil Defense helmet made for officers. It's much lighter, but doesn't offer protection for the ears. It has a good suspension system. If you get this model, paint it a dark color before using it and you'll be less conspicuous. Our fashion consultants suggest anarchy black.

Construction helmets or "hard hats" run between $8.00 and $10.00, depending on the type of suspension system and material used. They are good for women because they are extremely lightweight. The aluminum ones dent if struck repeatedly and the fiberglass type can crack. Also they offer no ear protection. If you prefer one of these you should find a way to attach a chin or neck strap so you won't lose it while you run. If you get a hard hat, make sure you remove the hard head before you take it home.

Probably the all-around good deal for the money is the standard M-1 Army issue helmet. These vary in quality and price, depending on age and condition. They run from $2.00 to $10.00. Make sure the one you get has a liner with webbing that fits well or is adjustable and has a chin strap. Their main disadvantage is that they are bulky and heavy.

The snappiest demonstrators use the familiar motorcycle crash helmet. They are the highest in price, running from $10.00 to as high as $40.00. Being made of fiberglass, they are extremely lightweight. They have a heavy-duty strap built in and they can be gotten to fit quite snugly around the head. They offer excellent ear protection. The foam rubber insulation is better than a webbing system, and will certainly cushion most blows. Being made of fiberglass, a few have been known to crack under repeated blows, but that is extremely rare. Most come with plastic face guards that offer a little added protection. Get only those with removable ones since you might want to make use of a gas mask.
GAS MASKS

Ski goggles or the face visor on a crash helmet will protect against Mace but will offer no protection against the chemical warfare gasses being increasingly used by pigs to dispose crowds. For this protection you'll need a gasmask. All the masks discussed give ideal protection against the gasses mentioned in the chart if used properly. If you do not have a gas mask, you should at least get a supply of surgical masks from a hospital supply store and a plastic bag filled with water and a cloth.

The familiar World War II Army gas mask with the filter in a long nose unit sells new (which is the only way gas masks can be sold) for about $5.00. Its disadvantages are that it doesn't cover the whole face, is easy to grab and pull off and the awkwardly placed filter makes running difficult. The Officer Civil Defense unit sells for the same price and overcomes the disadvantages of the World War II Army model. Most National Guard units use this type of mask. It offers full face protection, is lightweight and the filter canister is conveniently located. Also the adjustable straps make for a nice tight fit. The U.S.A. Protective Field Combat Mask M9A1 offers the same type protection as the OCD, but costs twice as much. Its advantage is that you can get new filter canisters when the chemicals in the one you are using becomes ineffective. New filters cost about $1.50. When you buy a mask, be sure and inquire if the filter has replacements. To get maximum efficiency out of a mask it needs an active chemical filter.

The U.S. Navy ND Mark IV Mask is the most effective gas mask available. It has replaceable filter canisters and fits snugly to the head. It costs about $12.00. Its disadvantage is its dual tube filter system, which is somewhat bulky. Fix it so the canister rests on the back of your needs. It's more difficult to grab and easier to run.

When you get your gas mask home, try it out to get the feeling of using it. Make sure the fit is good and snug. Purchase an anti-fog cloth for 25 cents where you got the mask. Wipe the inside of the eye pieces before wearing to prevent the glasses from clouding. Another good reason for wearing a mask is that it offers anonymity. Helmets, gas masks and a host of other valuable equipment are available at any large Army-Navy surplus store.
Steal This Book

While the prices may be out of date, it remains good advice...

[kalashnikov]

67. You can thank the Seattle WTO protesters for this

The police overreacted because they were anticipating the violence that accompanied the Seattle protesters, and others around the world protesting the WTO and its likes.

[Dirk39]

70. Oh these evil anti-WTO protestors...

What if these evil citizens would overreact in anticipating the Bush-administration and the WTO, based on what they did before...
I don't even want to think about this...
Dirk

[raysr]

91. WTO-Seattle

My sister-in-law was in those protests, she's 50. I watched it on TV and didn't know what to think of it. Then I watched it a year or so later on "Democracy Now" with interveiws and a different camera/narrative perspective and finally got it. The adminstation laughs at peaceful protests. I don't know what works best, but I bet they (WTO) don't go back to Seattle.

[nolabels]

82. I was thinking the exact opposite, the police did it on purpose

They have found that's what works and are now using it wholesale. You should never underestimate or even missunderestimate the intellect of some of these folks. A lot of them didn't get there because they were nice people. That is their first job, maintain the law and order of the status quo.

Be prepared to change other's minds before you try to change the police who also have their own agenda.

[slaveplanet]

117. Delta Force

was use to kickstart the Seattle festivities. I'd put money they were also used in Miami. Delta force brought 50 Blackbloc anarchists and put them up at a nearby hotel. My guess is Delta force anarchists provoked police in order to break up the rally. It somewhat backfired on them. In Miami, Chief John Timoney was ready, special laws were passed that the ACLU objected to, but couldn't bring suit in time. This special law sunsets on the 27th.
They also refused over 200 busses according to the steel workers union assistant to the president. This I believe was done to keep the ratios in check so Timoney could engage his agenda. Timoney clearly had a bone to pick: In Philadelphia, where he was police commissioner, he personally confronted protesters at the 2000 Republican National Convention.
He actually pedaled a bicycle into the middle of a fray. A rioter smashed him over the head with the bike.
"Unfortunately, I picked the biggest guy," Timoney said in an interview this year. "I should've picked a smaller guy."

"Seattle Weekly"-Even the military got involved. According to the Weekly, the Pentagon sent members of the top-secret Delta Force to Seattle to prepare for President Bill Clinton's arrival. As the paper put it, "the elite Army special force, operating under its cover name of Combat Applications Group (CAG), was in Seattle a week in advance of the Clinton visit to scope out possible terrorist acts. Under the control of the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the contingent took up residence in a Regrade motel and fanned out downtown dressed as demonstrators, some wearing their jungle greens."
"Seattle Weekly" http://r2klegal.org/media/jr-022101.html

[kalashnikov]

71. Look how clean the protesters left the site ::

What, no environmentalists among the group? I dont like people such as this who give liberals such a bad name.

[Mika]

78. Hard to clean up when jackboots are shooting and busting yer head open

But officer, I need to pick up paper cups and paper.

:crazy:

[JanMichael]

87. I can't believe that people are whining about trash!

Talk about reaching for an excuse to bash:eyes:

[JanMichael]

85. Oh my gawd! Every been to a city that threw a "Block Party"?

Messes happen.

Get a grip.

[dmr]

72. I keep starring at the contradiction of this one picture

Look at the attack stance of the circle of officers. There is at least one, maybe two protesters on the ground in the middle. Now look at the protesters in the back of the picture - they are just standing there. JUST STANDING THERE - Calmly and quietly! As if they were tourists waiting for the parade to pass by at Disney World. If 8 million of that money was given for Miami defense, then I want to know what, if and where other money is going. What a slush fund.

[kalashnikov]

99. How many people are behind the picture taker?

I cant belive how many people here assume that the police are overreacting because of a few pictures! Any body can take a picture of anything and interepert what was going on in many different ways. Who knows if somebody was yelling "kill cops" or brandishing a suspicious object in the background?
Besides, when the police are vastly outnumbered, like they are at all protests of this type they have to make sure they can deal with the possibility of the crowd turning violent. That means they have to arm themselves appropriatley (non-lethal weapons, like the tasers shown in the picture), and use the appropriate tactics (presenting a formidable appearence so that no one will be tempted to attack them).
Would you rather have a few police wearing nothing but their uniform asking Anarhists United to "please not break down the barricades, dont make me raise my voice"?

[kalashnikov]

100. Who is behind the photagrapher?

I cant belive how many people here assume that the police are overreacting because of a few pictures! Any body can take a picture of anything and interepert what was going on in many different ways. Who knows if somebody was yelling "kill cops" or brandishing a suspicious object in the background?
Besides, when the police are vastly outnumbered, like they are at all protests of this type they have to make sure they can deal with the possibility of the crowd turning violent. That means they have to arm themselves appropriatley (non-lethal weapons, like the tasers shown in the picture), and use the appropriate tactics (presenting a formidable appearence so that no one will be tempted to attack them).
Would you rather have a few police wearing nothing but their uniform asking Anarhists United to "please not break down the barricades, dont make me raise my voice"?

[JanMichael]

101. Give it up man. The "security" over reacted.

I think that's a fairly well accepted take on the event now.

Do you seriously think that it's impossible for local government police to fuck up?

It happens.

PS~ Why the persistant contrarian view on this issue? Are you a intentionally obtuse stakeholder?

[kalashnikov]

102. I agree that police sometimes overreact..

but when they "underreact" violence occurs as well. They try and find a fine line in between and all I hear in this thread is that they must be bush's goons. And no one here seems to have any expertise in riot control techniques. Alot of complaining and very little constructive criticism.

As for being contrarian, well, I try and keep you guys honest. I just think that there was a lack of any debate on this "cop bashing" thread.

[JanMichael]

103. Well I'm honored that you've appointed yourself the "accuracy cop".

Good on ya'.

Democracy in action once again.

[slaveplanet]

109. Vampire killer

http://www.geocities.com/c_ansata/nwo48.html

[dmr]

104. Take another look at the pic, kalashnikov

I wondered at first, too, who or what was behind the photographer, UNTIL I noticed the police are not in a forward stance in this pic, they are encircled. Take a look at the faces of the protesters. There is nothing in their faces that indicate anything is happening behind the photographer.

[kalashnikov]

105. Looks to me like there was a scuffle

with the protester on the ground and now he is being arrested, the police are forming a circle around him while another cop handcuffs him. Nothing strange about this, the cops are saying to the hundreds of people around them to stay away and leave them alone while they arrest the offender. Just doing their job. The protesters faces dont show that they see anything going on now, but what happened befoer is anyones guess.

[sangh0]

115. Yeah, right! "Nothing strange"

Cops always form a circle with loaded guns pointed out when they arrest someone. Keep moving. Nothing to see here.

The protesters faces dont show that they see anything going on now, but what happened befoer is anyones guess.

Yep. When people watch events that cause the police to draw their weapons and point them at people (you do know that that's very dangerous and only allowed in restricted conditions, don't you?) they quickly resume their previous blank looks as soon as the excitement passes.

[kalashnikov]

116. Their weapons were nonlethal.

And when the police are sorrounded by thousands of protesters they take defensive positions.

[lostnfound]

118. Yes, fortunately the 82 yr old lady who was peppersprayed had a good heart

n/t

[Lexingtonian]

73. you mispose the question and the politics

The dilemma here is whether your protesters want to (1) feel good about themselves and what they're doing, and achieve no real results, or (2) accept that there is a price to be paid for political victory and pay it.

All of the proposed solutions I've seen here (and all the %$#&ing photos are fouling up my ability to see more than half the thread, thanks folks) are mostly about (1), which is about managing the violence and maintaining a belligerent or potentially violent posture yourselves. Which more or less guarantees that the press and public will see only a clash of interests, not a showdown of morally highly distinctive groups, in any violence that occurs.

So, to be effective when the majority of the population is against your position (as I presume the case to be in southern Florida), it takes (2) and a resort to truly nonviolent protest methods, which Gandhi and the Quakers have written the books on, and serious amount of willingness to suffer illegal imprisonment on the part of a few hundred or a few thousand people.

In any case, there has to be a separation of protesters into two groups, those committedly non-violent and those who refuse that commitment. The rest of the story is about civil disobedience, thorough videotaping of any and all incidents, and of people refusing bail and pleading innocent on all counts, with local prisons getting overcrowded as thousands and thousands of nonviolent people get arrested on trivial or trumped up charges for days and weeks. Violent protesters get all the media coverage, of course, but it's the headaches and embarrassment of the system that are politically effective.

That's hard to do, of course. But it is a matter of having harder will and more ability than the minions of the despots. Nonviolence and civil disobedience is much harder than violence and intimidation psychologically, and more costly really in terms of time and money, but it scares the rulers deeply because it can wipe out their power entirely. The more peaceable and numerous and articulate the people involved, the more effective. Normally you start the march on someone/someplace with a petition signed by all, explaining your side of the matter that is so important that it warrants this approach.

[JanMichael]

84. I think you misposed your subject line but not the entire response:-)

It sounded a little snide but that's ok.

"The dilemma here is whether your protesters want to (1) feel good about themselves and what they're doing, and achieve no real results, or (2) accept that there is a price to be paid for political victory and pay it."

Yes and no. The dilemma that I posed was that there has to be a realization that the stakes have changed over the course of the Bush administartion. Th money taken from the Iraq Bill to pay for pumped up outside police forces, thus giving over to non-stakeholders itching for a fight, is unique IMHO.

"All of the proposed solutions I've seen here (and all the %$#&ing photos are fouling up my ability to see more than half the thread, thanks folks) are mostly about (1), which is about managing the violence and maintaining a belligerent or potentially violent posture yourselves. Which more or less guarantees that the press and public will see only a clash of interests, not a showdown of morally highly distinctive groups, in any violence that occurs."

Once again you're right about these being clashes btween "morally highly distinctive groups" and my point is that the stakes are so high that these clashes will become increasingly more unpredictable. From what I've heard from protestors themselves and seen on the National Media there way little to none in the way of Violent Protestors. It was a very well mannered (At least not violent) march until the police started their tactics. As to the graphic photos? Get a high-speed line:-)


"So, to be effective when the majority of the population is against your position (as I presume the case to be in southern Florida), it takes (2) and a resort to truly nonviolent protest methods, which Gandhi and the Quakers have written the books on, and serious amount of willingness to suffer illegal imprisonment on the part of a few hundred or a few thousand people."

Agree.

"In any case, there has to be a separation of protesters into two groups, those committedly non-violent and those who refuse that commitment. The rest of the story is about civil disobedience, thorough videotaping of any and all incidents, and of people refusing bail and pleading innocent on all counts, with local prisons getting overcrowded as thousands and thousands of nonviolent people get arrested on trivial or trumped up charges for days and weeks. Violent protesters get all the media coverage, of course, but it's the headaches and embarrassment of the system that are politically effective."

Once again a dilemma. I simply don't know how to segregate that many diverse groups. I like the idea about pleading innocent and documenting the process, that's probably a next step. But there's always going to be some chance of a rock throw and a barrage of rubber bullets in these situations. They simply can't be so regimented. Especially with the police tying to create chaos by re-routing busses and marching people into unknown alleys...

"Normally you start the march on someone/someplace with a petition signed by all, explaining your side of the matter that is so important that it warrants this approach."

That wasn't allowed on site, it's well documented, and could never account for hundreds of locals that can drive of simply walk into the fray.

Thanks for your interesting reply:-)

[mmonk]

75. Hate to say it

but protestors at trade events are usually violent as opposed to other protests (war, civil justice and race, etc.) Police units are tighter and on edge because of past anti-WTO violence and property destruction. I don't condone strong police reaction unless there is justfication. I do not know what or how much was justified in this case yet.

[G_j]

76. a little education

goes a long way..

http://www.antimedia.net/s11awol/text/wef_report.htm

Summary of report prepared by the National Lawyers Guild


Several reports have been released on the Seattle WTO Ministerial. Most of them have been written by members of law enforcement or people involved in the planning of the event. Their tone has been unapologetic. They have not addressed the unprecedented level of force used by police. This force included the use of potentially lethal CS, OC and impact weapons. These weapons were used against bystanders, residents and thousands of demonstrators who took no part in the destruction of property. Many of these reports have called for an even greater use of force in future political demonstrations.

It is the theory of this report that the level of force employed during the WTO Ministerial must be examined. We say this because dismissing what occurred in Seattle will make such future uses of excessive force inevitable. To do so would be to damage, perhaps irreparably, the fabric of democracy and free speech that has maintained our society.

Because the events that occurred in Seattle did not occur in a vacuum, the analysis in this report includes an analysis of the WTO's policies and other factors that created the catastrophic militarized response by law enforcement.

This report first examines the underlying factors behind the WTO, and the dynamic it and organizations like it create. Next this report explores the way this dynamic was manifest in Seattle when an undemocratic process brought the WTO here. After this we examine the dynamics that occurred during the Ministerial itself, both on the streets of Seattle, and inside the Convention Center.

After this we explore the factors that led to this event unfolding in the fashion that it did. We explore some of the dynamics that are shaping the world economy. We also explore the dynamics that are causing a blurring of lines between police and military. We then explore how these dynamics influenced what took place in Seattle during the WTO Ministerial.

It is our hope that through honest, thorough investigation and analysis, we may prevent such disasters from reoccurring in the future.

...more..

[G_j]

80. Report: Police 'excessive', 2001 Quebec FTAA protest

Police 'excessive' at 2001 Quebec FTAA protest - report http://www.agrnews.org/issues/253/worldnews.html#4

[lostnfound]

96. Consider perhaps: media coverage was far more skewed.

They hardly covered Seattle at all except to talk about protestors breaking some windows..agent provocateurs..?

The government can rely on a deep background of the American public as "procapitalist, anticommunist" -- the media would have to work very hard to present the other side to a skeptical public. Someone going out to protest trade agreements is so far out of step with generally-accepted views that the public does not identify with them. Easy to vilify; easy to label them as "violent" based on a few broken windows.

The government cannot rely on the same sentiments about peace protestors, since most people have felt a revulsion for war at some time in their lives. Media coverage is scarce; protestors will be painted as naive or youthful dreamers; but not usually as bad or violent people. Even the labelling of them as 'unpatriotic' has a hollow ring -- the newscasters mostly don't even believe it when they use the word.

[LeahMira]

79. Nothing new...

5. So there WILL be future protests (there is no choice), like this last week's activities, but the protestors now know what the "security" forces will do now that we have the new Miami Model.

My generation saw Kent State. Other generations before mine saw their own home-grown atrocities. I guess younger folks don't realize the dangers... but now you do, eh?

Yes, those in power will try to placate you with video games and shopping malls and whatever, but when they can't do that they will try to kill you.

They hate you because you are free.

[morgan2]

83. people need to make the police feel sorry for them.

By dressing in black and wearing masks on ones face, many of these protestors encourage the police to not associate with them. One of the best ways to win is to become the police, by either joining them or getting them to join you. Get the police on our side and they wont be so violent.

[Colin Ex]

88. That's all well and good. BUT.

One side is open and loving. It says please associate with us, be on our side. And it doesn't work that often.

The other side is "You know, getting teargassed and sprayed and then getting the shit kicked out of you with a nightstick isn't much fun."

If I were on the streets that day, I know which side I'd be on.

-C

[youngred]

90. It will not be pretty

but the road to change rarely is. You're right, hte miami model will expand, and its only a matter of time until they cross the line. I have Attended many protests and never once seen a protestor give any reason to be treated badly by the police. I have seen SOME police get out of hand, but by in large they have just been there doing their job. I hope this never happens again, I doubt that will be the case

[EV1Ltimm]

95. these pictures make me sick...

one of the women in those pictures looks like my wife and it breaks my heart to think of someone that i know and/or love getting shot with rubber bullets... IN THE HEAD

little johnny law got to play dress up and shoot some hippy scum. i'm sure they shared some laughs over some beers afterwards.

what a bunch of dicks.

[brainshrub]

97. Mark my words:

This was the dress-rehersal for the 2004 election.

[Cleita]

98. Speaking of the media, the only news I have seen about

this is here at DU. They seem to not even have noticed.

[solinvictus]

106. Media

Yahoo and other online services have ignored the Miami event as well. It contradicts their "A-OK!" perspective on the state of the country.

[Scott Lee]

107. Lesson - DRESS for the occassion.

Heavy clothing or elbow, knee pads. Kevlar if you have it.

Be prepared to defend yourself. The cops have now declared themselves above the constitution so you have every right to self defense.

If you're not willing to do that then you shouldn't attend a protest these days. It's that simple.

[Liberator_Rev]

110. See pictures of girl being shot in the back by Jeb's GOONS!

Incredible photo sequence of protester Nikki Hartman being shot in the back as she tries to flee police, after kneeling in prayer in front of them.

http://ftaaimc.org/en/2003/11/1997.shtml

Here's what I wrote to Jeb in response:

[e-mail] <[e-mail]>

Subject : "Heil Hitler ! "

Governor Bush,
Are you in a race with George to see who can be the first to be recognized as the true heir to Hitler's heritage? "Nikki Hartman being shot in the back as she tries to flee police, in Miami"

We clergy are getting more and more fed up with the whole Greedy Old Party and are mobilizing Christians everywhere to recognize that yours is the party of the Anti-Christ.
{ Ecclesiastes 5:8-9} "If you see some poor man being oppressed by the rich, with miscarriage of justice anywhere throughout the land, don't be surprised! For every official is under orders from higher up, and the higher officials look up to their superiors. And so the matter is lost in red tape and bureaucracy. And over them all is the king. Oh, for a king who is devoted to his country!

{ Isaiah 32:5-9 } "In those days the ungodly, the atheists, will not be heroes! Wealthy cheaters will not be spoken of as generous, outstanding men! Everyone will recognize an evil man when he sees him, and hypocrites will fool no one at all. Their lies about God and their cheating of the hungry will be plain for all to see. The smooth tricks of evil men will be exposed, as will all the lies they use to oppress the poor in the courts. But good men will be generous to others and will be blessed of God for all they do."

{ James 1:27 - 2:9 } "The Christian who is pure and without fault, from God the Father's point of view, is the one who takes care of orphans and widows, and who remains true to the Lord -- not soiled and dirtied by his contacts with the world. Dear brothers, how can you claim that you belong to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, if you show favoritism to rich people and look down on poor people?

For any Christian to be a "Conservative", when Jesus was such a revolutionary, is to be misinformed either about the true meaning of the word "Liberal" or about the life and teaching of Jesus. This site shows why people who aren't Liberals like Christ simply aren't following Christ's teaching, which is made abundantly clear at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike ."

=======================================================
Anything that you can do to help promote "Liberals Like Christ" would be deeply appreciated.

[Matilda]

119. OMG!

What would they be like if there was a real revolution? This is
way, way over the top. Need I ask whether these scenes made it on
the nightly television news?