more on Dean and his Draft issue

[AmericanDem]

The Los Angeles Times 11/23/03

Dean's Draft History Draws Critics
Supporters of Clark and Kerry argue that the front-runner's Vietnam
deferment would make him a weaker candidate against President Bush.

By James Rainey and John m. Glionna, Times Staff Writers

DES MOINES — A new account of how Democratic presidential front-
runner Howard Dean avoided service in Vietnam through a medical
deferment — then went skiing in Colorado for 10 months — renewed
arguments Saturday that a military veteran would be able to mount a
stronger challenge against President Bush.

The former Vermont governor was excused from the draft in 1970 when X-
rays showed he had a bad back, although Dean said in an interview
that he "probably" could have served, the New York Times reported
Saturday.

Two other candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination —
Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) and retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark —
fought in Vietnam and were wounded and decorated for their service.

-snip-

EDITED BY ADMIN FOR COPYRIGHT REASONS

[slinkerwink]

1. dupe.

[Hep]

2. Will the real Kerry please stand up?

“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.”


-John Kerry, 1992

I like the old Kerry better.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. There's no way you can serve in the military with a bad back.

Despite having a bad back, Kennedy was able to join the U.S. Navy through the help of Captain Alan Kirk, the Director, Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) who had been the Naval Attache in London when Joseph Kennedy was the Ambassador.
...
PT 109 commanded by Kennedy with executive officer, Ensign Leonard Jay Thom, and ten enlisted men was one of the fifteen boats sent out on patrol on the night of 1-2 August 1943 to intercept Japanese warships in the straits. A friend of Kennedy, Ensign George H. R. Ross, whose ship was damaged, joined Kennedy's crew that night. The PT boat was creeping along to keep the wake and noise to a minimum in order to avoid detection. Around 0200 with Kennedy at the helm, the Japanese destroyer Amagiri traveling at 40 knots cut PT 109 in two in ten seconds. Although the Japanese destroyer had not realized that their ship had struck an enemy vessel, the damage to PT 109 was severe. At the impact, Kennedy was thrown into the cockpit where he landed on his bad back. As Amagiri steamed away, its wake doused the flames on the floating section of PT 109 to which five Americans clung: Kennedy, Thom, and three enlisted men, S1/c Raymond Albert, RM2/c John E. Maguire and QM3/c Edman Edgar Mauer. Kennedy yelled out for others in the water and heard the replies of Ross and five members of the crew, two of which were injured. GM3/c Charles A. Harris had a hurt leg and MoMM1/c Patrick Henry McMahon, the engineer was badly burned. Kennedy swam to these men as Ross and Thom helped the others, MoMM2/c William Johnston, TM2/c Ray L. Starkey, and MoMM1/c Gerald E. Zinser to the remnant of PT 109. Although they were only one hundred yards from the floating piece, in the dark it took Kennedy three hours to tow McMahon and help Harris back to the PT hulk. Unfortunately, TM2/c Andrew Jackson Kirksey and MoMM2/c Harold W. Marney were killed in the collision with Amagiri.

Because the remnant was listing badly and starting to swamp, Kennedy decided to swim for a small island barely visible (actually three miles) to the southeast. Five hours later, all eleven survivors had made it to the island after having spent a total of fifteen hours in the water. Kennedy had given McMahon a life-jacket and had towed him all three miles with the strap of the device in his teeth. After finding no food or water on the island, Kennedy concluded that he should swim the route the PT boats took through Ferguson Passage in hopes of sighting another ship. After Kennedy had no luck, Ross also made an attempt, but saw no one and returned to the island. Ross and Kennedy had spotted another slightly larger island with coconuts to eat and all the men swam there with Kennedy again towing McMahon. Now at their fourth day, Kennedy and Ross made it to Nauru Island and found several natives. Kennedy cut a message on a coconut that read "11 alive native knows posit & reef Nauru Island Kennedy." He purportedly handed the coconut to one of the natives and said, "Rendova, Rendova!," indicating that the coconut should be taken to the PT base on Rendova.

Kennedy and Ross again attempted to look for boats that night with no luck. The next morning the natives returned with food and supplies, as well as a letter from the coastwatcher commander of the New Zealand camp, Lieutenant Arthur Reginald Evans. The message indicated that the natives should return with the American commander, and Kennedy complied immediately. He was greeted warmly and then taken to meet PT 157 which returned to the island and finally rescued the survivors on 8 August.

Kennedy was later awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Medal for his heroics in the rescue of the crew of PT 109, as well as the Purple Heart Medal for injuries sustained in the accident on the night of 1 August 1943. An official account of the entire incident was written by intelligence officers in August 1943 and subsequently declassified in 1959. As President, Kennedy met once again with his rescuers and was toasted by members of the Japanese destroyer crew.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-2.htm

[slinkerwink]

4. still a dupe----here's the link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=761912&mesg_id=761912

[Bozola]

7. Golly!

Are you really comparing Vietnam to WWII?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. The comparison I'm making

is between Dean and Kennedy. Dean used his family money to stay out, Kennedy used family connections to get in.


I don't think Dean did anything to be ashamed of.

On the other hand, Kennedy, Clark, and Kerry did something to be proud of.

[Classical_Liberal]

15. No he just didn't try to overcome a back injury to get in

like Kennedy, and it was in an entirely different war.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. Yes, Kennedy could have gotten out of it and

didn't want to. Dean was against the war and didn't try to overcome a back injury to serve in it. I can live with it. He still isn't Bush.

[ComerPerro]

5. Fuck that

Maybe the issue people like Kerry should be pressing is Bush's cowardly dodging of military service...

[unfrigginreal]

6. McEntee has got it right

In an interview, AFSCME President Gerald W. McEntee referred to
questions about Dean's Vietnam choice as a "sideshow."

"We supported Bill Clinton — we've been all through this Vietnam
thing, the marijuana, those kinds of issues. Dean has spoken honestly
about the issue," McEntee said.

The Vietnam service issue is a nonstarter as is the Bush AWOL theme. It wasn't an issue with Bush in 2000 and it won't be in 2004.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. Bush/AWOL certainly won't be an issue if Dean is the nominee.

You're right, Gore made a big mistake in not attacking Bush on this in 2000.

[Hep]

10. Is that because

nuance is lost on the american people just like it's lost on you? Or is this a rehashing of the Kerry fan's mantra: The people are stupid the people are stupid?

Just curious.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Maybe I'm one of those stupid people you are talking about

because I don't understand your question.

What are you asking?

[unfrigginreal]

13. It wouldn't matter who the nominee was

The country has already moved beyond agonizing over the moralities of serving or avoiding service in Vietnam. Just because your Politics 101 book tells you that it should be important, doesn't mean that it is. Try to get out more and make your judgements based on what real people think, not political science.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. Gore didn't attack Bush hard enough on a lot of issues, this is just one.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. Why not Dean didn't go awol

if Bush uses the flight suite aircraf carrier scenes in his commercials it should be fair game even for Dean.

[Bombtrack]

20. Gore didn't have a great platform for attack about Vietnam

Both Bush and Gore had there fathers get them easy military jobs. Although Gore actually went overseas, his amenities were probably better than Bush's were at the TANG. He had Air Conditioning, hot meals, hot showers etc.

[dsc]

8. copy write

You are supposed to limit to 3 or 4 paragrahs and provide a link.

[Bombtrack]

18. right-winger Bill Shneider defends him, while bashing dems in general

Shneider is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute

"The other Democrats can't call him a coward or a draft dodger,
because what he did was legal," said longtime national political
analyst Bill Schneider. "And, particularly among Democrats, there is
no disgrace in having avoided service in that particular war."

Once again trotting out the smear that democrats are anti-military and anti-war. Well alot of them are, but not the majority. The ones who call Clark and Kerry "militarists" to scare others away from them.

[jumptheshadow]

19. The reason why this matters at this time

Clark and Kerry can bludgeon Bush about his own military record.

Can Dean?

[TSIAS]

21. Dupe-Locking

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=761912&mesg_id=761912