Mutilation/Desecretion: A Tipping Point? (a little rant)

[nostamj]

and if a 'tipping point,' where does the rage 'tip' to?

by now I'm sure that most DUers have read and/or heard about the horrific attack today in Iraq today.

two soldiers, shot, throats slit, bodies mutilated, stripped, looted... by children.

you keep thinking it can't get uglier, but it always does.

if this is a tipping point, where will the rage tip to?

will there be a faux patriotic rallying to the "CIC" as he denounces atrocities he is directly responsible for?

these actions were utterly barbaric and I certainly don't condone or celebrate them. brutality in war is nothing new and the US is no stranger to acts of brutality in war.

americans have never fought against an invading and occupying army. (the British were already here)

"pre-emptive self-defense" is bushspeak for naked aggression.

dropping 2000lb pounds on civilians does not make you a liberator. it is a complicated scenerio. but, how can Americans NOT understand what it is to defend to the death their right to freedom and independance from foreign intervention?

of course we despise the killings. but our soldiers NEVER should have been placed in this situation, under these arrogant conditions and restrictions.

of course we despise the killings. but can we honestly say we would react differently to an invading army?

I fear that today's atrocities will only deepen the resolve of the bushies and their followers to escalate the occupation.

I fear that today's atrocities will NOT tip the rage of the nation against bashco's catestrophic, illegal and immoral iraqi outrage.

I fear that today's atrocities, like Jessica Lynch, will be fed into Rove's propaganda machine to ratchet up the ignorant hatred that passes for 'support' of this war and this 'president'

I fear that today's atrocities will, as usual, benefit the increasingly fascist agenda that passes for an American government.

and that really pisses me off!

</rant>

[Nlighten1]

1. What are you talking about? This is more "success"!

This just means we are winning remember?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. do not fear

think and be angry, but don't be afraid. Once the parents of these troops realize what is happening, and for what, you will hear the chorus.

[Dudley_DUright]

3. Unfortunately not a tipping point (IMO)

for exactly this reason:

by now I'm sure that most DUers have read and/or heard about the horrific attack today in Iraq today.

For most people (sheeple), if they don't see it on TV, it never happened (and now back to the Jacko saga). I really hate to be this cynical, but I am learning that no how matter how cynical I get, it is not cynical enough for these times.

[nostamj]

5. it HAS been getting pretty specific coverage

on CNN and MSNBC.

and while there has been some MJ, not as much as I thought.

oh, i'm cynical too.

[Dudley_DUright]

7. I was talking about the actual incident being on TV

like the Mogadishu dragging incident. Reporting something in words on TV has far less impact for most people (which I guess was my original point).

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. There will be more tipping points

this is just the preview of the end of Ramadan

I trust bush to try to use it to his advantage, but
the people are starting to ask questions.

[nostamj]

6. i just heard a general on CNN say...

in every engagement, we prevail.

right. 6 dead today. two mutilated and desecrated.

we prevail.

[Dudley_DUright]

8. He should look up the history of the Vietnam war

the generals were saying exactly the same thing at that time.

[Jacobin]

12. I remember, too. "light at the end of the tunnel"

"can't afford to lose"...."domino theory, all of SE Asia will become communists"...etc etc, blah blah.

[izzie]

9. Course Bush looks at our death as winning but.....

Children? Please I am not sure teen-ages are children as many in our army are 18 years old. I do wonder what Americans think people feel when we drop 1000 lb bombs on people from 20000 feet. Speaking of terror, just think how you would feel if you were in bed and heard the planes coming over and your kids were in the next room? This is war as it really is and it is time it was pushed into every Americans face. Armies kill people and it is their job to do it, and not to be fun loving nationbuilders. That job is for others and not men taught to kill.See how smart they are, to day they made a women who has not been in Iraq for years, some big wig in the so called Iraqi govt.She has been working for a 'free' Iraq for years, of course in a nice safe country like USA. What a GD farce this whole thing is. Maybe the Rand think tank could do some thinking for this Bush and Co. It is like children fighting in the school yard. We need some adults to come out and stop this madness.

[nostamj]

10. the 'children' I referred to

were the Iraqi children who, reportedly, desecrated and looted the bodies.

otherwise I agree, clearly.

most Americans do not appreciate the CONTEXT of these atrocities.

[Jacobin]

11. Tipping Point?

In the past three months there have been discussions among the talking heads (some of them, anyway) and others that we had a "window of opportunity" to "win the Iraqis hearts and minds" (excuse me while I gag on the words, as we bomb them and depleted uranium them into oblivion) and that if we did not "change" and "do something different" that a "point would come" beyond which the Iraqis would all turn against us.

Tellingly, I haven't heard those words since about the rocket attack on Richard Perle in the hotel.

The tipping point, imho, was when we began bombing and invading their country. We are infidels in a muslim country. We are not and will not be welcome there. We are there to steal their oil using the pretext of imagined WMD.

This is just the beginning. As in Vietnam, the talking heads and congresscritters are saying "we can't walk away" "we can't lose" "we will prevail"........it's such a fricking flashback to Vietnam that it is absolutely insane. Many of the same congresscritters that "held the course in Vietnam" for years and years as the body bags piled up voted for the IWR and are now saying that it needs to contiue or that it should be done is some slightly different way.

We will lose this. We lost this when we invaded. It's just a matter of how many on both sides are killed and maimed.

It is disgusting to watch my country repeat the idiotic imperialism that it is sooooo bad at over and over again.

[nostamj]

14. no argument (in general)

(but it was Wolfowitz, not Perle that was in the hotel)

i agree the tipping point in Iraq has LONG passed and we see the result EVERY day.

i meant a tipping point with US perception of the progress of the 'war'

[Jacobin]

16. Ah yes. I get the evil twins confused some days.

[darkstar]

13. Saddam loyalists-->foreign terrorists-->criminal gangs-->Mosul teens

I was thinking about this horror for the hour or so I tried to nap. How purely awful.

Recently, as per certain General's comments re: lack of foriegn fighters in Iraq (sorry no link or name), I have been wondering what the actual make up of resistance and aggression is in Iraq. And I've been wondering, like several of you above, what America's reaction will be if/when it should become clear that regular, non-Baath citizens--from outside the Sunni triangle, no less--are taking part in the aggression against U.S. soldiers.

And alcun, the very point you made in the other thread kept rolling around in my head for that hour above. While all facts are not in, it seems that there is little chance that these teens were either foriegn trained, Baath party members, or among the hardened criminals Saddam released. In other words, in a sane, rationale world this would be a tipping point for America not only b/c of the nature of the act but *the make up of the group who committed it.* Hence, alcun's point that WMD *and* liberation seem to both be taken out of action as principled causes.

But the American psyche is not healthy. I fear that soon the pivot will be made to a "then kill the unappreciative bastards" mentality, all w/out the slightest trace of cognitive dissonance.

I don't predict this. I fear it. I don't know what will happen. And though I'm always on the side of "stay and fight" when people mention leaving the country if Bush get's re-elected, I'll admit part of my sleeplessness was that should even a 20% of the country (much less a plurality)express this "kill 'em" view shortly (or reelect Bush next year), I'm going to have to have a good think at what I'm doing here.

Sorry about mostly just re-phrasing what lots of folks have said above, but I'm really agonizing about the possible reaction should it become clear that regular citizens of Iraq are acting as aggressors.

edit: thanx nostamj and all for the respecful discussion of this 800 pound...ug...elephant in the corner given the exeedingly touchy nature of the subject matter

[nostamj]

17. "the hardened criminals Saddam released"

this is such a ridiculous assertion.

why, WHY would "hardened criminals" assault US troops?

do criminals target the police, or do they STEAL STUFF?

the 'media' along with all sentient citizens should be LAUGHING at this crap. and not a happy laugh

[darkstar]

18. Right--

Meant to put "hardened criminals" in quotes above.

And agree w/ you about the ridiculousness of it all as well::

Criminal #1: "Hey, the jewelry shop is closed for the night. Let's sneak around the back, pry the door open and get the stones. If there's any cash in there we can get some prostitues and party before we fence the goods."

Criminal #2: "No. Let's go attack an armed military convoy instead. Wouldn't be near as profitable and infinitely more dangerous, of course, but I'm tired of the "diamonds, prostitutes, partying" rut we're in."

Criminal #1: "That is getting old, ain't it...."

[nostamj]

19. yeah, and the CNN presstitute that read the report

didn't even have the borderline intelligence to roll her eyes at such a piece of blatant bullshit.

[leftofthedial]

15. we must be winning big time

If adolescent civilians will resort to that kind of deparate act.

"ignorant hatred that passes for 'support' of this war and this 'president'"

is dead on. Far too many Americans are ignorant, through RW corporate disinformation and brainwashing, laziness, and simple stupidity. I can't see "our side" winning a meaningful victory without confronting the evil at the heart of the neocons and the ignorance of the masses.