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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:05 PM
Original message
Howard Dean, healthcare and Vermont.
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:06 PM by BillyBunter
Here is a table showing the percentage of Vermonters without health insurance between 1987 and 2001:

Table 2 – Estimates of the Percent Uninsured in Vermont, 1987-2001

Year US VT / State
1987 12.9% 9.8%
1988 13.4% 10.7%
1989 13.6% 8.8%
1990 13.9% 9.5%
1991 14.1% 12.7%
1992 15.0% 9.5%
1993 15.3% 11.9% 11.0%
1994 15.2% 8.6%
1995 15.4% 13.0%
1996 15.6% 11.0%
1997 16.1% 9.5% 6.8%
1998 16.3% 9.9%
1999 15.5% 11.1%
2000 14.0% 8.6% 8.4%
2001 14.6% 9.6%


Source: http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Vermont%20Uninsured.pdf

As you can see, the rate of uninsured bounced around during Dean's tenure as governor (partially due to sampling error), but when he left office, it was right about where it was when he entered office. So why is Dean credited with being strong on healthcare? Are there some other measures he uses to support his campaign rhetoric, and if there are, why are they more important than these data? I feel almost certain this issue has been discussed before, so there should be a ream of stuff out there on it.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have never seen this before.
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:10 PM by Bleachers7
That's an interesting find. I thought Dean said everyone in VT has insurance. Not only isn't everyone covered but VT is the 11th best state. What are the others doing different?
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You haven't?
It's been drudged up on here several times before.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I swear
I really have not seen this before and I have been here since August.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Think he said every child had insurance? I may be wrong on this? n/t
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. No, he's usually very careful to say
what percentage of children are eligible -- and I think it's 95%. For adults, it's a little more complex and I haven't heard him go into it as often. It covers people up to a percentage of the poverty level (150% ???), etc., etc. There might be data on his Offical Website.

Eloriel
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phirili Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Howard Brush Dean tends to brush away the truth. Yes that's his real
real middle name.
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. That can't be his real middle name
What kind of parent would give a middle name like brush to a kid?



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”

read the book
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. lemme research
http://www.gaypasg.org/Press%20Clippings/December%202002/Profile%20-%20Howard%20Brush%20Dean.htm
Here's a link to bio. Yep its Brush. My middle name is his first name and my candiate's middle name is my first name :D funny. Personally I would hate to have Brush as a middle name, :shrug:
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Even better 'Brush' anagrams to 'Shrub'
Be careful what you wish for :evilgrin:
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Good one!
"Howard Brush Dean tends to brush away the truth."

Wow, another MATURE Clarkette! Why am I NOT surprised? :eyes:
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. OMG, Howard Brush Dean is so copying the Fuller Brush Man!
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 11:48 PM by mitchum
Remove that beam from your own eye
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. What will the spin on this one be
I wonder do Deaniacs have any comment, are these numbers false?
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. They came from the state of Vermont.
There is apparently a problem with the sample base being small, which would explain the bouncing around, but on average, I think it's fair and accurate to say nothing changed between 1992 and 2002 that couldn't be explained by sample error: ie, he had no real effect at all.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Perhaps While Children Became Covered
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:32 PM by cryingshame
Rates went up in Vermont so that some adults ended up losing their coverage?

Maybe Vermont's population grew? :shrug:
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. Massive Info Dump on Dean's Healthcare Record
Dean's Record on Health Care Access

“As a physician, I've seen the suffering caused by this nation's health care crisis, and as Governor, I know it can be solved.”

Health Care – 96% of Vermont’s children have health care coverage thanks in part to Governor Dean’s Dr. Dynasaur program, and an additional 3% are eligible for coverage.

Access – Governor Dean expanded health care for children in low to middle income families. Children 18 or under, whose families are at or below 300% of the Federal Poverty Line, are eligible for insurance at virtually no cost.

Mental Health – Howard Dean was the first Governor in the nation to sign the Mental Health and Substance Abuse Parity Act. This bill guarantees coverage for mental illness and substance abuse at the same level as severe illness.

Women’s Health – During Governor Dean’s tenure, the breast and cervical cancer rate went from slightly above average to below the US average, thanks to Vermont’s comprehensive screening system. Vermont’s Medicaid program was also expanded to cover treatment for women diagnosed with breast and cervical cancer.

Teen Pregnancy – Under Governor Dean, teen pregnancy rates dropped 49%, to the lowest rate in the country.

“Healthy Families Visionary Leadership Award” – Presented by Prevent Child Abuse America.
Dean's Record on Children's Health Care

“Give children hope by investing in prevention.”

Success By Six – As a doctor, Governor Dean has placed a strong emphasis on early childhood prevention and health care, which is why 89% of pregnant Vermont women enter prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy. In Vermont, 91% of families with a birth received a community visit, and those parents who wanted assistance and support received it.

Dr. Dynasaur – Governor Dean has expanded children and pregnant women’s access to health care. Currently 58,903 children are covered under the program. Dr. Dynasaur covers children up to the age of 18 within families up to 300% of the Federal Poverty Line.

Child Abuse – During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.

Child Sexual Abuse – 84% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-3 and 70% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-6.

Immunization – 81.1% of children are fully immunized by age 2 and 97% by the time they start kindergarten, which makes Vermont second in the nation in child immunizations.
Dean's Record on Serving the Elderly

“We can provide higher quality of life by avoiding institutional services whenever possible.”

Prescription Drugs – Governor Dean understands the importance of access to prescription drugs in preserving the health and avoiding unnecessary institutional care of our seniors and people with disabilities. While in office Governor Dean expanded pharmaceutical assistance to these Vermonters. Vermont has three pharmacy assistance programs with the level of benefits for each program indexed to household income. Seniors and people with disabilities can have incomes up to 225% of the federal poverty line and receive assistance with their prescriptions.

Nursing Homes– Governor Dean decreased the state’s reliance on nursing homes by mandating that funds be shifted from nursing homes to other services, such as home health care where people can live with independence and dignity. Over $30 million dollars has been shifted from paying for nursing homes to paying for in-home and community based services.

Home Health Care< – Between 1996 and 2000, there was a 161.3% increase in individuals receiving a home based waiver and services, while there was a decrease of 13.5% of individuals living in nursing homes. [br />
Dean's Record on Prescription Drug Costs

“As a physician, I've seen the suffering caused by this nation’s health care crisis, and as a Governor, I know it can be solved.”

Drug Patent Reform – Governor Dean was founder of Business for Affordable Medicine (BAM), a coalition of governors, business and organized labor with one objective - closing loopholes used by brand name drug manufacturers to prevent or delay lower-priced generic drugs from reaching the marketplace when patents expired. Governor Dean created and coordinated unanimous passage of NGA policy on the need to reform the Hatch-Waxman Act. Thanks to his leadership with other governors, the U.S. Senate and House have included provisions that would close some loopholes in the currently pending Medicare prescription drug bill.

Preferred Drug Lists and Supplemental Rebates – Under Governor Dean, Vermont has been a leader in lowering drug costs in the Medicaid program. Dean wants to expand these measures nationally:



Preferred Drug Lists (PDLs) to ensure that doctors and patients use less expensive medications where clinically possible. Vermont started with one class of drugs - Gastric acid reducers – which includes the highly-advertised drugs Prilosec and Nexium, and put a less expensive therapeutically equivalent alternative drug on the preferred list. The results have been remarkable: Vermont’s Medicaid expenditure on gastric acid reducers has been slashed by 43%.

Forcing Pharmacy Benefits Managers (PBMs) to have transparent contracts with the manufacturers to disclose any financial incentives they might receive from drug manufacturers. Vermont was one of the first states to implement such an agreement, and this is another step that Governor Dean wants to take nationally.

Finally, Vermont last summer expanded the PDL and began to negotiate supplemental rebates with drug companies, in addition to those the companies provide in accordance with federal Medicaid law.
The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, a trade group known as PhRMA filed suit against the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, questioning HHS’ authority to grant states the ability to use PDL’s. Governor Dean organized 22 other Governors who sent a letter of support to Secretary Tommy Thompson on August 12, 2002. In addition, Governor Dean organized a press conference on this suit with other Governors at the National Governors Association summer meeting.

Disclosure of Gifts to Doctors – Last June, Governor Dean signed a bill into law which, among other things, made Vermont the first state in the nation to require pharmaceutical manufacturers to disclose the value, nature, and purpose of any gift, fee, subsidy, or other economic benefit provided to any physician, hospital, nursing home, pharmacist or health benefit plan administrator in Vermont.

Re-importation for personal use – Governor Dean has endorsed the strategy of United Health Alliance’s Medicine Assist program, enabling U.S. citizens to obtain prescription drugs from Canada via fax. Canadian drug prices are, on average, half those in the United States. Governor Dean has held numerous press conferences encouraging people to take advantage of the plan to make their prescription drug costs more affordable.

A Strong Record of Protecting Victims of Domestic Violence

"Domestic violence impacts every aspect of a victim's life and is a problem that requires a community response. – Howard Dean, MD"

Child Custody – Governor Dean signed a law that requires judges to consider evidence of abuse when determining parental rights in divorce cases.

Child Support – Governor Dean signed the Abuse Prevention and Child Support law which requires abusers to pay child support and living expenses to spouses who request court protection and have no other means of support.

Confidentiality – Governor Dean signed a law entitled the Address Confidentiality for Victims of Domestic Violence, Sexual Assault and Stalking, known as the “Safe at Home” program that offers victims of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking a free and confidential mailing address through the office of the Secretary of State.

Government Involvement – Governor Dean signed an executive order enhancing state assistance to victims of domestic violence. Efforts include raising awareness of domestic violence in local workplaces, providing state employees access to a 24-hour domestic violence resource hotline, and granting state employees who are victims of domestic violence time off from their jobs to seek counseling, medical assistance or alternate housing.

Public Education – Governor Dean included information about domestic violence on the paycheck of every state employee.

Improving Community Response – Governor Dean created the Domestic Violence Fatality Review Commission to examine domestic violence fatalities, identify strengths and weaknesses in the community response to domestic violence, educate the public about intervention and prevention, and recommend policies to reduce fatalities due to domestic violence.

Child Abuse – During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In that time the incidence of physical and sexual abuse of children declined 45%, including a 64% decline in physical abuse of victims younger than 4 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims younger than 7. The decline in child sexual abuse was even more dramatic, with a 72% decline in victims younger than 4 and 84% decline in victims younger than 7.

“Healthy Families Visionary Leadership Award” – Presented by Prevent Child Abuse America to Governor Dean in March 2002.

A Strong Record of Accomplishment on Issues Important to Women


Dean's Record on Supporting Women

Women Appointees - Governor Dean appointed more women to positions of leadership during his tenure than any other state. At one point, the percentage of women appointees in his Administration was higher than the percentage of women in the state. Also, about 50% of his judicial appointments were women.

Pro-Choice - Gov. Dean is a strong supporter of abortion rights. He believes that government should not interfere with medical decisions. He stood against legislative proposals that would require parental notification and ban late-term abortions.

Fair Pay - Vermont passed legislation that expands federal wage discrimination laws into state jurisdiction and toughens the law so that the federal standards apply to all Vermont businesses.

Family Leave - Governor Dean is in favor of paid family leave, similar to the legislation that passed in California.
Dean's Record on Health Care

Health Coverage - 96% of Vermont’s children have health care coverage through Governor Dean’s Dr. Dynasaur program, and an additional 3% are eligible for coverage.

Child Immunization - 81.1% of children are fully immunized by age 2 and 97% by the time they start kindergarten, which makes Vermont second in the national in child immunizations.

Prenatal Care - More pregnant women get early, comprehensive prenatal care. Currently about 89% of pregnant women enter prenatal care during first trimester of pregnancy.

Breast Cancer - More Vermont women are being screened for breast cancer, and the death rate from breast cancer is significantly down. It’s now below the U.S. rate thanks in part to Ladies First, the state’s comprehensive breast and cervical cancer screening system.

Teen Pregnancy - During Governor Dean’s tenure, pregnancy rates for young teens dropped 49%. Vermont has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the country.

Contraceptive Coverage - In 1999, Governor Dean signed a law that requires insurance plans with prescription drug coverage to cover FDA-approved forms of contraceptives. As a doctor, Dean knows that affordable access to family planning is essential for women. Insurance plans that do not cover contraceptives are unacceptable and discriminatory. Vermont is one of only eight states to receive an "A" grade from NARAL for access to contraceptives.
Dean's Record on Children and Families

Child Support – Under Gov. Dean, Vermont’s Office of Child Support has been very successful in meeting the challenge of collecting child support. In 1999, Vermont achieved a rating of 65% of cases with collections. This is the second highest collection rate in the country — in spite of increasing caseloads. The national average was 37% of cases with collections, a figure that Vermont has nearly doubled.

Success by Six – As a doctor, Governor Dean has placed a strong emphasis on early childhood prevention and health care, which is why 89% of pregnant Vermont women enter prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy. In Vermont, 91% of families with a new birth received a community visit, and parents who need it, get help and support.

Child Care – Our investment in Child Care Services has increased by 176% since 1991. Unlike some other states, there is no wait list for working parents with young children who are eligible for a childcare subsidy.

Child Abuse – Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.

Welfare Reform – Vermont was the first state to implement a statewide time-limited welfare program. In 1994, two years before federal welfare reform, Vermont reformed its program. Over the course of the 7-year project, caseloads declined by more than 48% and employment and earnings of participants rose more than 42%.

A Record of Commitment to Serving the Elderly


“We can provide higher quality of life by avoiding institutional services whenever possible.”

Prescription Drugs – Governor Dean understands the importance of access to prescription drugs in preserving health and avoiding unnecessary institutional care of our seniors and people with disabilities. While in office Governor Dean expanded pharmaceutical assistance to these Vermonters. Vermont has three pharmacy assistance programs with the level of benefits for each program indexed to household income. Seniors and people with disabilities can have incomes up to 225% of the federal poverty line and receive assistance with their prescriptions.
Nursing Homes – Governor Dean decreased the state’s reliance on nursing homes by mandating that funds be shifted from nursing homes to other services, such as home health care where people can live with independence and dignity. Over $30 million dollars has been shifted from paying for nursing homes to paying for in-home and community based services.

Home Health Care – Between 1996 and 2000, there was a 161.3% increase in individuals receiving a home-based waiver and services, while there was a decrease of 13.5% in individuals living in nursing homes.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. anyone even going to respond to this?
:shrug:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think people would prefer it if you had a link
good refutal but links are useful. :shrug: just my observation. I believe you, dont get me wrong but you know people, gotta back it up, but cant blame you for tryin.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. How about constructing a readable counter-argument?
It's not that difficult and a lot more persuasive.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. It's called data mining.
I'm not interested in dealing with a cherry-picked assortment of stuff. I want something more objective. I'm actually curious about the reality of Howard Dean's tenure there more than I am with his campaign propaganda. I know, for example, that the percentage of children insured there was also quite high when he took office, so telling me that 96% of Vermont's kids were insured in 2002 is meaningless unless I have something to compare it to. What impact did he have? What value did Governor Dean add to the state of Vermont?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. like, read the data dump if you really want to know
:shrug:
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Dammit slinkerwink, you're making them address facts!
Stop being so damn cruel!


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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. oh, sorry, I won't ask them to read the information I post so they can do
all the spinning they want ;-)
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Nope. Slopping a bunch of stuff out there isn't making an
argument; it's a way of avoiding making one. As things stand, it looks to me like a fact that Howard Dean had virtually no impact on the number of people, children included, who were covered by health insurance in Vermont. All the Dr. Dinosaurs in the world don't change that.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. He definitely had an impact---let me guess, you skimmed through it?
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sighs, I'm a Clark supporter and I hate these threads
They serve no purpose other than to be shitty. What bothers me most is that for the most part, General Clark has refrained from attacking too much, something some of my fellow Clark supporters could learn from.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Not to worry. These losers can't help it when Kerry keeps slipping
It's all angry filth, they have nothing better to do.

Clark is a damn fine guy, might I add. You have a great candidate.


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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. what has kerry got to do with this ?
this was started by a clark supporter.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. but
since it was started by a clark and not supporter will you answer the claims of it ?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. It is all Kerry *hyponic trance music*
You will blame Kerry for all that goes wrong.
heh you know the funny thing is, that in class the other day I got put in a trance and my ablity or therefore lack of ablity to close my eyes screwed me up. ok back to the trance. If you break a bone, it will be blamed on Kerry. If you fall on ice, it will be Kerry's fault. If Kerry brings to the US to prosperity and a golden age, it will still be Kerry's fault. If your girlfriend leaves you, it will be Kerry's fault. Yes everything is Kerry's fault. :D I am joking of course. *snaps fingers* Now whenever you do something wrong, you can blame Kerry, what a world :).
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. It's the Kerry stormtroopers that usually carry the share
of the mud to be slung, no matter who starts it.

And I can't really blame them; I'd be pissed if I were stuck supporting Kerry too.


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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. interesting
complain about these type of threads and blame it on kerry supporters, when pointed out it wasn't started by a kerry supporter, still blame kerry supporters.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I dont get it either
Remember everything is Kerry's fault. *twists ankle* Damn you John Kerry ;). Sigh I really envy that Bobby Kennedy Jr endorsement, he should be a secretary of the interior in a Democratic adminstration, and of course another one I envy is Ted Kennedy, and IMO thats proof you can oppose the war and such yet support a pro IWR candiate, I know it may have been out of state loyality but Teddy knows his stuff too.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. yeah, both guys are great
i especially like robert kennedy jr because the environment is his big issue which is important to me also and one of the reasons i support kerry too. and teddy always does a good job.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. yeah
oh on the environment, Kerry is phenominal, hearing that he helped organized the first earth day in MA brought a smile to my face when I heard about that and cant top a 96% from the League of Conservation of Voters in 18 years, thats great. I heard Kerry votes with Ted like 94% of the time, which is also great. I really think had he said no to IWR or even if Kucinich wasnt in the race, he would be my candiate. I really think hes better than most are willing to admit, hell I will tell you this, I was gonna be on the model UN at school last year and I had a chose to choose someone from a committee, guess who I chose :), but I quit the club in that it bored me.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. "I was gonna be on the model UN at school last year "
i think my friend was part of something similar also. it wasn't specifically UN, but represented the idea of the un i would say. but she also dropped out because she got bored. hehhe
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. yea, my person I was gonna be would be Kerry
It was booring.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Don't worry J17, some people are just pathological
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nice try. Dean's state held steady while the nation's went up
Which statistically (since you're playing a numbers game) means Vermont did better than the nation in terms of those who could afford health care.

Is this your antiDean shift? I thought it was quinnox's turn....


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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Perhaps we were reading different tables.
The federal numbers declined from 15% in 1992 to 14.6% in 2002.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. If you take a peek at slinkerwink's massive info posted
on Deans health care record, you could easily come to the conclusion that VT's uninsured would have been much much higher had Dean not done what he did about the problem when he was governor. Half full/half empty stuff, to be sure, but I'm not sure what you expected of Vt with your post. You sure didn't prove that Dean was unsuccessfull in bettering the plight of Vermont's citizens lacking health care.


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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. From a simply incorrect (not to say
dishonest, of course) post, you moved to another one. What 'problem?' Vermont had 9.5% uninsured when Dean entered office, and that's where it was when he left. In the middle, the numbers bounced around, as did the national average. What 'problem' did Dean solve, and how did he solve it?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Several things
First I am sure this was an oversight on your part. You wouldn't purposely leave out something like this.

The most frequently used source of uninsured numbers is the Current Population Survey
(CPS). CPS is a monthly survey co-sponsored by the federal Bureaus of the Census and
Labor Statistics. Each March, the survey includes questions about health insurance
coverage. The primary purpose of CPS is to produce national estimates. Because of this,
the survey relies on samples that are somewhat proportional to state populations. Small
states like Vermont have fairly small samples and state-specific annual CPS numbers for
Vermont should be used with caution.

The above is, in plainer English, a caveat that these numbers are not terribly percise. This is due to trying to use national data for a state the size of Vermont. In order to have the around 400 people needed for a good sample we would need the national sample to be close to 200,000 (400*500) which I find very unlikely.

Yet another time they say this.

Some health care analysts4 believe that the CPS underestimates the number of people on
Medicaid and thus overestimates the number of uninsured. At least one other state
(Wisconsin) that does its own survey reports an uninsured rate substantially lower than
the CPS estimate5.

This would be a problem for Vermont given that they use Medicaid to insure Vermonters.

Finally, what his claim isn't that all his citizens are insured. It is that all children whose parents decide to participate are.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. 'Left out?'
What part of As you can see, the rate of uninsured bounced around during Dean's tenure as governor (partially due to sampling error) did you not understand? The cumulative data, however, demonstrate not a whole lot of movement. If you take the average of his last three years, to build as big a sample as possible, the uninsured rate is 9.7%.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Billy
I know damn well you are very knowledgeable on many subjects discussed here at DU. Not just candidates. Come on over to LBN once and a while and give us some input into those subjects and take a little break from this stuff for a while. It will do you good, and help guys like me who are ignorant on a lot of subjects that are of interest to me and others, but could really use your intelligent input on some of those discussions. I have thougt about this for about a month now and I do miss your comments (and other DUer's comments too) on many current events of the day. If you decide to do it thanks, and if you do not I understand. See ya later.

Don

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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
41. This really is getting to be too funny
I don't envy any of the other candidates supporters because they have a tough hill to climb, but watching the most vehement anti-Dean supporters looking for something, anything, to demonize him is becoming comical.

Yeah, I guess I better stop supporting Dean because Vermont wasn't the state with the best uninsured rates. From your link:

Comparison with other states
One way to improve the reliability of estimates in small states like Vermont is to combine
multiple years of data. The table below, based on CPS data, shows the states with the
lowest uninsured rates based on the period 1999-2001.

Table 1 – States with lowest uninsured rate, 1999-2001
State % uninsured
Rhode Island* 7.2%
Minnesota* 7.8%
Iowa 8.0%
Wisconsin* 8.5%
Pennsylvania 8.7%
Massachusetts* 8.7%
Missouri* 8.8%
New Hampshire 9.0%
Delaware* 9.5%
Nebraska 9.6%
Vermont* 9.7%
Connecticut 9.7%
Hawaii* 9.7%
Michigan 9.9%
United States 14.5%

For more interesting reading about how Dean threw all of the old and crippled off of medicaid take a look at this state by state analysis.

http://www.statecoverage.net/statereports/multi1.pdf
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Data mining at work.
Vermont already had one of the lowest uninsured rates in the country when Dean took office, so telling me that Vermont has one of lowest rates in the country now is meaningless. It's kind of like saying Bush was a successful businessman, because he's a millionaire now who was in business. The fact that he started out with millions and connections to work with gets left out.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Oh, I see.
So that 12.7% rate that he inherited in 1991 is actually lower than the 9.6% rate when he left office.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. The rate he inherited was 9.5% according to the data I posted.
I have no idea where you got yours.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. You meant to highlight the rate that he inherited didn't you? 12.7%
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 12:01 AM by unfrigginreal
Dean became Governor in 1991. I'm sure it was just a slip of the mouse.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Even for a Deanite, that's pathetically dishonest.
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 12:35 AM by BillyBunter
Dean became governor in August of the year, when Snelling died.
So to say he 'inherited' a 12.7% rate is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous when you look at the rates prior to that year, which was an anomaly probably due to sampling error, like 1995 was. They average about 9.5%, the same average Dean had for his term as governor.

I'm sure your attempts at twisting and data mining were not a slip of the mouse, however. Just typical Whoreard Dean reality bending.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. uh.....Dean didn't run for Governor because he was in the presidential
race.....so therefore Dean didn't lose to that Republican Governor.
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