New York radio host jumps on Dean for draft dodging...

[rfranklin]

This morning the deejay on WOR-AM was already attacking Dean for being smart enough to beat the draft during his physical in 1970. I heard no mention of the fact that George Bush didn't even show up for his physical and was suspended from flying in 1973. It's begun...

[Khephra]

1. Dean is like the Hulk

The more angry you make him and his supporters, the bigger and stronger they get.

I don't expect anything that the media is going to say will stick to Dean anymore. It hasn't yet, and he's gone through some real tough spots...which is one reason I think he can beat Bush.

:evilgrin:

[AP]

53. except with a bad back.

right?

[Khephra]

57. I can't wait until Dean wins the nomination

And the post-primary DU rules come into effect. You'll just burst by trying not to say anything negative about Dean the candidate. I can say nice things about any of the candidates, even though I won't vote for them in the primary, but you are just going to have a hell of a time keeping your snide comments to yourself, aren't you?

:evilgrin:

[AP]

60. Contrary to what you'd like to believe, I only make the observations I do

because I want a Demcorat to win.

If Dean is the nominee, why in the world would I make comments which would hurt the Democrats' chance of winning?

[Khephra]

65. Eh...more power to you then

:-)

Consider that my cranky comment of the day then. I'm sitting here with eye problems, arthritis, a thrown out knee, a flu, and I have a ton of work to do today. I took your comment as being more snide than it probably was, in reflection.

[Enraged_Ape]

2. I really, really wish the neocons would beat the "war coward" drum

It would be the best thing that could ever happen for us, so naturally they won't do it. I'm sure this morning DJ didn't get Karl's fax that it's best probably not to mention this stuff and put Il Dousche under the spotlight over his wartime desertion.

[mdmc]

19. me too

Kerry, Clark supporters can shout out, "Dean and Bush both have awful service records! Dean got an exemption and Bush a desertion!"
Rally the troops of Dean supporters and inform the masses of Bush's war record. :dem:

[tsipple]

43. Worked So Well for Bob Dole

Dole's campaign is pretty much like the Clark campaign, so far. "He's a war hero. Vote for him."

Uh, no. Not effective politics.

[dennis4868]

47. Sorry......

but I have been following Clark's campaign and I never have gotten the feeling that he wants people to vote for him because he is a war hero. If anything he has been on the defensive against lies from conservative military people like "Stormin Norman." I like the way Clark is not afraid to call Bush and his thugs liars and says that have to be accountable. And lately Clark has been bringing up the Election 2000 fraud!

[tsipple]

49. Clark Supporters

You make a fair point, so let me clarify what I said by saying "Clark supporters."

If I were a Clark supporter, this wouldn't be the argument I'd want to be making. Because it flies in the face of the last President from Arkansas's experiences and background. And many Democrats (like me) are going to rightly say, "Huh?"

[TLM]

81. It is not the HERO part Clark is pushing...

but those four shiney stars that so many have been duped into thinking we need to win the white house.

[Khephra]

3. Politically speaking

This is the best time in the world for them to try this course of attack. What with Dean's brother being flown home, this offers Dean a great way to counterattack.

(I'm sorry that I'm being overtly political about Dean's brother, but it's just a fact of political life. Dean has a perfect way to spin this against his accusers now, if he wants to take it.)

[Bombtrack]

4. "being smart enough?" he was rich enough and blue-blooded enough

for his family to help him let a less advantaged(and less smart if you like) take his place.

[rfranklin]

5. I guess his brother took his place...

but he wasn't smart enough to get into the National Guard, so maybe it wasn't a smart use of language on my part.

[trumad]

8. rfrank

You do know that his Bro didn't take his place and that he was killed over in Laos as a visitor? You do know that don'tcha?

[Skwmom]

9. His brother didn't take his place.

His brother did not fight in Vietnam.

[CWebster]

12. Yeah , it was such a heroic thing to go to Viet Nam

For what? To benefit who? To kill, why? to destroy the lives and lands of the VietNamese, for what? To participate in the atrocity that is war on a daily basis to come back physically and emotionally wrecked, addicted to dugs, alcoholics, filling the ranks of the homeless.

My cousin had some WW2 flying ace father, spouting the duty and honor bullshit, and my cousin went to fly heliocopters in Nam and when he came home, it was if he was dead to his family--he would have nothing to do with them again.

My father went to Korea, all gung-ho and he learned the truth soon enough. If it came to it, he was ready to move my family out of the country to see that my 3 brothers wouldn't participate in this barbaric government's latest slaughter in Viet Nam.

So, where do you get off measuring the worth of any candidate by his war duty? It is sick and twisted that some Americans, in light of them sending their children to another barbaric blood bath, seek that image to project to the world.

[Skwmom]

23. He dodged the draft, sending another to take his place.

That says something about his character.

[zeemike]

35. He did not send anyone to Viet Nam.

Johnson and Nixon did the sending. To accuse someone that said “hell no we won’t go “of that is bogus. It is an indictment of everyone that resisted the war and is totally unfair.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

66. LOL

Really, it's your character that is taking the hit here, not Dean's.

IF I may quote John Kerry, the OLD John Kerry:

“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.”

[Scott Lee]

69. Why do you insist on lying about Howard Dean?

Dr. Dean did not, I repeat, did not dodge any draft. He answered his draft call and presented medical information which was pertinent to his status - you cannot "fake" an unfused vertebrae.

The draft board did not accept him based on a clear physiological condition. If you want to blame someone for Dean not going to Vietnam, blame the Draft Board.

But please stop lying about Dean. He never dodged a draft.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Actually, your post says something about YOUR character.

[TLM]

87. Going to your draft induction and being rejected

isn;t dodging a damn thing.


The fact folks want to spin it as such to mouth repuke style attacks on a dem says a lot about their character.

Odd how the most republican attack is, for the most part, coming from the Clark folks.

[sangh0]

94. That's draft-dodging

Rush Limbaugh made an appearance at his draft board, where he submitted evidence of his anal cyst. As a result, we call him a chickenhawk.

Cheney made an appearance at his draft board, where he testified he had more important work to do. As a result, we call him a chickenhawk.

Dan Quayle made an appearance at his draft board, where he applied for the National Gaurd. As a result, we call him a chickenhawk.

[TLM]

106. We call them chicken hawks because they pimp war and never served.

Dean's not much of a war pimp, so your argument is baseless.

And I note you say they were chickenhawks... not draft dodgers.

I wouldn't say that any of them dodged the draft if they went to their inductions. They certianly did not serve in vietnam, but to go and be rejected isn't dodging.

[sangh0]

110. The important words "and never served"

The fact is, many voters will not support Dean because of how and why he did not serve. Many voters make on distinction between "chickenhawks" and "draft-dodgers".


to go and be rejected isn't dodging.

To go and TRY to get rejected IS draft-dodging.

[TLM]

124. Nope sorry, by that definition everybody who got rejected

because of a pre-existing medical condition is a draft dodger.

I know you Dean bashers will stop at nothing to bash Dean no matter what sickening republican talking points you have to repeat, but to label all those americans who went to their inductions and were rejected because they had medical conditions is just a new low.

[sangh0]

126. Dean deliberately TRIED to be rejected

Keep ignoring that part, and I'll keep repeating it.

[TLM]

130. He tried no more than anybody else with a pre-existing condition

The fact is those folks are supposed to bring records of any pre-existing condition to the induction physical.


Keep ignoring that part, and I'll keep repeating it.

[sangh0]

132. Dean admits he brought the records to avoid the draft

The critical issue in determining draft "dodging" is intent, and Dean has made it clear that he had no intention of serving. Saturdays NY Times has a quote from him saying this.

[TLM]

138. Yet as ususal you won't quote it... because it doesn't say what you claim.

So I'll quote it:


Dr. Dean got the medical deferment, but in a recent interview he said he probably could have served had he not mentioned the condition.

"I guess that's probably true," he said. "I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."



Newsflash, NOBODY was in a hurry to get into vietnam. If they had been, there would have been no need for a DRAFT!

Is it your position that Dean should have lied about his condition so he could go kill babies in vietnam like CLark and Kerry?

[sangh0]

142. "I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Yeah, that won't lose any votes for Dean.

Newsflash, NOBODY was in a hurry to get into vietnam.

Wrong again! Plenty of people enlisted, and some re-enlisted. Some of them were Democrats. Some of them are now running for President.

[Scott Lee]

146. so someone stupid enough to be in a hurry to die for no reason....

should be trusted with having the superior mental acumen of someone you'd trust in the office of President?

You know what, sangh0, unlike Dean, the more you talk - the less you make sense.

[sangh0]

148. Does Dean call vets "stupid"?

Or is he afraid to say that?

Or does Dean think you're an idiot for thinking that?

[TLM]

153. Does your guy call people with medical deferments "draft dodgers"

Or is he afraid to say that?

Or does he think you're an idiot for thinking that?

[sangh0]

156. Anyone that TRIES to avoid service

is a draft dodger, and I have no problem with any candidate that says that. None of the other candidates have been asked about draft-dodgers, but the candidates (including Dean) have been asked about vets.

Did Dean call them idiots?

[TLM]

162. So anybody who did not go to vietnam is a draft dodger then...

since a lot fo people tried to avoid service who did not have existing medical conditions.


Why do you think people should have been happy and excited to go kill babies in vietnam, like Kerry and Clark?

[sangh0]

163. No, anyone who tried to avoid the draft

is a draft dodger.

[TLM]

171. Anybody who even tried? Even if they failed?

Seems you must make mighty wide standards here to attack Dean. By your logic if Dean had presented information on his condition, yet still been sent to vietnam, served and come home, he's be a draft dodger for simply trying to avoid the draft?

So anybody who tried to avoid the draft, yet served anyway, are draft dodgers. As well as the folks who enlisted in the Navy or Air Force, like my father, to avoid being drafted... they avoided the draft, so clearly they too are draft dodgers by your definition.

So you've labeled everybody who did not serve, and about half those who did... not to mention many thousandds who died, as draft dodgers... all so you can attack Dean.

:puke:

You know the anti-Dean folks like who resort to such sickining methods, prove to me every day that I am on the correct side.

[sangh0]

177. Dean succeeded at draft-dodging

I realize how much you like the "attack the critic, ignore the issue" but please try and stay focused on the issue at hand

[TLM]

184. You said anybody who even tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger...

how is holding you to your own words avoiding the issue at hand?

Your standards are inconsistant.

[sangh0]

187. I said "Dean is a draft-dodger"

because he tried to avoid the draft. How that applies to others is no concern of mine.

Your standards are inconsistant

I am devastated.

[TLM]

191. "No, anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger."

Why are you now running from your own words?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=766124&mesg_id=768728&page=

"No, anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger."

[sangh0]

195. We are talking about Dean

who was successful in his attempts to dodge the draft.

And according to you, those people who served aren't "draft-dodgers", they're "baby killers"

[TLM]

197. So you admit you have double standards for Dean?

Or do the same standards apply to Dean as everybody else?

[sangh0]

200. They apply to you

when you accuse me of calling the people who served in VN "draft dodgers", just a few minutes after you called them "baby killers"

[TLM]

202. I responded to your fallacious arguments with an equality fallacious one

The difference is I admit my “baby killer” argument was a BS emotional argument in response to your "draft dodger" BS emotional arguments.

Yet you still maintain your claim that “anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger" in order to bash Dean.

[sangh0]

204. You deliberately lied?

At least you're "honest" enough to admit it.

And yes, "anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger"

[TLM]

207. Not a lie, simply an example of the falicious nature of your arguments.

"At least you're "honest" enough to admit it."


Whereas you continue to maintain your argument and admit nothing.


"And yes, "anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger" "

Including the men who served and the men who died... sad to see you sincerely dishonor the memories of those men just to attack Dean.

[sangh0]

212. You deliberately said something you knew was untrue

and you don't think that's a lie?

Including the men who served and the men who died... sad to see you sincerely dishonor the memories of those men just to attack Dean.

Attempted draft-dodging. And I don't understand why you think draft-dodging is a dishonorable action. Many, myself included, see nothing immoral about avoiding service in an immoral war. Of course, it would have been better if Dean had actually fought (and possibly made a sacrifice) in order to end the war earlier than it did, but that would be asking too much from Dr. Ho-Ho. He had "more important" things to do.

[TLM]

224. Nope not a lie to make a falicious argument to demonstrate

another argument is also falicious.

"Attempted draft-dodging."

You said anybody who even tried was a draft dodger.

"And I don't understand why you think draft-dodging is a dishonorable action."

To accuse someone who served of being a draft dodger just so you can widen the standards enough to attack Dean, is very insulting to those men.


"Many, myself included, see nothing immoral about avoiding service in an immoral war."

Oh so you admit your attacks on Dean are hypocritical?


"Of course, it would have been better if Dean had actually fought (and possibly made a sacrifice)"

Oh you mean like losing a family member in laos?


"in order to end the war earlier than it did, but that would be asking too much from Dr. Ho-Ho. He had "more important" things to do."

Yawn... so you go from attacking Dean for getting a medical deferment to attacking him for not doing enough to fight the vietnam war.

Well while Clark and Kerry served their country by murdering people in an illegal war... Dean served his country by saving lives in a Bronx ER.

Odd isn't it, that CLark and Kerry were putting bullets into teenagers in vietnam, and Dean was in the Bronx taking bullets out of teenagers.

[TLM]

150. Don;t you get it... you have to have murdered people in an illegal war

to be considered a viable presidential candidate by some folks... because that's the ONLY thing their guy's have going for them VS Bush since they spent the last three years either voting for or profiteering off of Bush's policy.

[TLM]

147. Plenty of people enlisted...

Then why the need for a draft?


Were Kerry and Clark not killing enough babies in vietnam to meet the quota?

[sangh0]

152. Plenty of people enlisted

and you won't even dare to argue it, which is why you ask a question instead.

Did people enlist or not?

[TLM]

158. The purpose of a draft is to force enlistment...

specificaly because there are not Plenty of people enlisting.

[sangh0]

161. Avoiding the question?

Did people enlist or not?

[TLM]

167. SOme people did inlist... hardly PLENTY of people.

Hence the need for a draft.


And many of those who did enlist, did so to avoid being drafted into the Army. Yet you calim they were all happy and excited to be marching off to war.

Sure there are some folks like Clark and Kerry who seemed to be excited about going off to kill people in an illegal war, but they hardly represent the majority of folks shoveled into the vietnam meat grinder.

[sangh0]

175. Don't lie

I said nothing about being "happy and excited to be marching off to war". They considered it a duty.

But thank you for acknowledging the truth that people did enlist. Furthermore, even more people served without trying to avoid serving unlike Dean.

In addition, no one is going to vote for Dean because he did NOT serve in VN. Many people will NOT vote for him because of it.

[TLM]

182. You attacked Dean for saying he wasn't looking forward to serving...

I simply made the mistake of assuming that was a standard you would apply consistantly to all the folks who were not excited about serving in vietnam.

But I guess you have one set of standards for Dean bashing and another for everything else.

[Eloriel]

164. Plenty of people enlisted to get in a better situation when

their numbers came up. Lotsa folks opted for Air Force or Navy over the Army.

Edited: then too, even if you enlisted in the Army, you were better off as an enlistee than a draftee (I think you got some slightly better chance of a say-so in your MOS, etc. )

Eloriel

[sangh0]

168. That is true

Thanks for corroborating my statements

[Eloriel]

151. No, you're mischaracterizing -- again

There has never been anything he's said to the effect that "he had no intention of serving."

Eloriel

[sangh0]

154. "I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

That statement should win a lot of votes for Dean, particularly in the South where military service is considered a big plus.

[Eloriel]

159. Change the subject, why don't you??

I said you're mischaracterizing; you try to slip on by with a different attack.

Eloriel

[sangh0]

166. No, I'm on topic

You said "There has never been anything he's said to the effect that "he had no intention of serving."

Dean's quote shows he had no intention of serving.

[TLM]

169. Wrong... Dean said he would serve if called upon to do so...

he just wasn't looking forward to it, as you seem to think people should.

But hey when have the facts ever stopped a Dean basher from spewing garbage?

[sangh0]

178. Dean was called to serve, and he dodged it.

.

[TLM]

186. Nope Dean was rated Y1... do you even know what that means?

It means he can still be called in case of a national emergency. And Dean went to his draft induction fully prepaired to accept their decision, and he did.

You still won't answer the question about what Dean should have done... should he have lied about his condition?

[sangh0]

190. Dean dodged the draft

and I don't care what Dean didn't do. The fact remains that he is a draft dodger and that is going to lose him votes.

[TLM]

194. Dean went to the draft induction and was rated Y1

the fact you are ignorant of what that means doesn't make Dean a draft dodger.


But then since you consider men who served and died in vietnam to be draft dodgers too because they tried to avoid the draft, one can hardly place any value on your opinion in this matter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=766124&mesg_id=768728&page=

"No, anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger."

[sangh0]

199. because Dean was a draft dodger

who intentionally avoided servce.

But then since you consider men who served and died in vietnam to be draft dodgers too because they tried to avoid the draft, one can hardly place any value on your opinion in this matter.

And since you're the one that called those who served "baby-killers", one can hardly place any value on your opinion in this matter.

[TLM]

205. By your definition, most who served and died were also draft dodgers.

"But then since you consider men who served and died in vietnam to be draft dodgers too because they tried to avoid the draft, one can hardly place any value on your opinion in this matter."

And since you're the one that called those who served "baby-killers", one can hardly place any value on your opinion in this matter.


Notice how when your double standard is caught and drawn out for all to see, you can not admit it, and instead must try to atack me, as if anything I've said changes what you said.

The fact is, as I've already stated, my "baby killer" argument was not a serious argument, but rather a demonstration of how BS emotional arguments like yours can be made from either side of a given issue.

Yet you still maintain the, "anyone who tried to avoid the draft is a draft dodger" standard in orer to bash Dean.

[sangh0]

213. Attempted draft-dodgers

and there's nothing dishonorable about avoiding service in an immoral war.

The fact is, as I've already stated, my "baby killer" argument was not a serious argument, but rather a demonstration of how BS emotional arguments like yours can be made from either side of a given issue.

"not a serious argument"???? You mean "a lie", don't you?

[TLM]

220. "there's nothing dishonorable about avoiding service in an immoral war."

Glad to see you answered the clue phone.

[FunBobbyMucha]

40. Whoa, wait a minute!

I agree that Vietnam was a colossal failure and a bad idea, but I think the guys who weren't fortunate sons are extremely heroic! To willingly step into a meat grinder because:

A)you loved your country,
B)you were drafted and accepted your duty regardless,

or

C)wound up in a bad situation through no fault of your own, but then followed orders like you were supposed to (and all rhetoric aside, in the service you HAVE to)puts you in a strata far above Chimpy, Dean, or any dodgers or ex-patriates.

Totally on-board with you about the message sent to other nations, etc, but don't blame the men and women who stood on the line. They deserve better.

Sorry, off of soapbox now.

[w4rma]

68. His brother protested to stop the war

His brother voted for Nixon (because of Nixion's "secret plan" to end the war) and when he found out Nixon had lied, he worked for the McGovern campaign.

He went to Vietnam and was captured and killed about 2 1/2 miles from the Vietnamese boarder in a Laos bomb crater inside a rice field. He may have been a CIA agent or a regular civilian. He was on the government's MIA list.

[sangh0]

78. While Dean went skiing

.

[TLM]

91. In fact i think that Dean's brother's death was serveral years prior

to Dean being rejected by the draft and then going on living his life.


Since you bashers want to attack Dean for going sking... what would you have had him do after being rejected by the draft board? Did he need to stay in bed for the rest of his life or be in a wheelchair?

[tkmorris]

6. Ummm, the way I heard it

He showed up for his physical and was refused. He didn't have much say in the matter. You have some better info?

[Khephra]

7. That's the way it happened on according to all non-Repub

accounts.

Even if he did "dodge" the draft, I have to wonder why it's such a big deal on this site, considering we have threads all the time from members about how to "dodge" a new draft.

There's a big difference in getting a medical discharge and getting your daddy to pull strings to get you into the National Guard and said person not even spending their time in duty.

[CWebster]

10. Why it's such a big deal on this site

because we have the armies of the new Right invading for their General.

[Joe the Revelator]

11. oh come on

:puke:

[CWebster]

13. My sentiments,

exactly.

[jumptheshadow]

14. Give me a break

Some of us probably have been liberals longer than you...

Some of us are pragmatic and actually want to win the election. We don't want to see Bush wreaking his unilateral militarism across the world. We are dead set against Bush making any Supreme Court appointments. We are distraught over what Bush has been doing to our environment. The list goes on and on...

This will be a campaign issue. You can close your eyes and tap your ruby slippers and wish that it would go away. But it won't go away.

Plus, a Dean candidacy would eliminate our chance to pulverize Bush on his military record. Dean just doesn't have credibility on national security issues. The Republican strategy will be to target swing voters using national security as a wedge.

You also forget the inevitable story that will emerge from the Dean campaign if he wins the nomination and starts moving rightward on issues and shutting his old supporters out of major decisions in his campaign. The press will pick up on that story and pound on it much like they have harped about the exit of one Clark campaign manager.

As further evidence of the lack of political savvy (and I'm being diplomatic here) of some Dean supporters we have folks like you doing your best to personally insult DUers who favor Clark. Aren't we the very folks you're going to turn to for political support if your candidate gets the nomination? How enthusiastic are we going to be about your candidate after your gratuitous bashing?

[CWebster]

15. Ahhh, yes, that is what is important to all "liberals"

being able to "pulverize Bush on his military record". That has always been the priority set by the "liberal" agenda---to get our very own Republican.

[jumptheshadow]

16. What's important to liberals

Is to get Bush out of office so he can't do any more damage.

Clark will defeat Bush. I don't agree with a couple of his positions but he is right enough on most of them. We don't even know how Dean stands on some issues: Did anybody ever answer how he stands on the flag amendment?

Dean has a good chance of getting clobbered in the general election. Clark will beat Bush. Don't ask me to be a lemming just to prove my liberalism to you.

[CWebster]

18. What is important to liberals

is that they have a Democratic party with a strong self-identity and firm enough footing to put forth a an opposition and wage a counter-attack without crumbling. Triangulating politics only serves to weaken Democratic identity and purpose. To win, we must win as Democrats not as Republicans, beating the Republicans at their own game.

[mdmc]

20. trianulation works

with a strong self identity and firm base support. All any of our candidates bring only one thing to the race - they can all beat Bush. Clark thinks he can top Bush on security, Sharpton thinks he can get out the vote in black communities. Each camp has a strategy - which campaign can deliver?

[CWebster]

26. Dick Morris might agree with you.

It works for radical ideologues who benefitted from the entire body politic being shifted further to the Right, while Democrats attempted to duck Republican attacks by being more in line with Republican policies.

Yeah, that worked to enable Little Lord Bunnypants and his brigade.

[jumptheshadow]

22. We will win as Democrats

And we will beat the Republicans at their own game.

[TLM]

100. Dean is against the flag amendment...

He did however sign a bill passed in VT leg to voice support for some level of flag protection, but stoping short of calling for an amendment.

[jumptheshadow]

173. "Some level of flag protection?"

Laws curbing the burning of flags have been declared unconstitutional by SOCUS. If Dean's stance is that he wants laws instead of an amendment, he's a little behind the times. And more than a little fatuous on the subject.

[sangh0]

201. "more than a little fatuous on the subject."

more than a little bit of an understatement.

Dean also says he wanted a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, but "changed his mind" after Clinton showed him that we don't have to change the Constitution to balance the budget. Imagine, Dean didn't know you could balance the budget without a BBA.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

206. Dean wants "Some level of flag protection"?

good lord. That is unbelievable. He's no lawyer or constitutional scholar, but we knew that already.

[TLM]

99. Yep... we can not have Bush in the white house...

so lets get our own war criminal/war profiteer who had a higher rank to run against him... yeah that's it.


I think that some of these people would vote for Rove himself if he suddenly said he was a democrat.



The only thing liberal about Clark is his script.

[tsipple]

41. Pulverize Bush on His Military Record?

So old news. We had that debate in 2000. Didn't work.

Ask Bob Dole and George W. Bush -- both defeated by Clinton -- whether it worked for them.

Ask Max Cleland whether it worked for him.

Somebody please show me a case where this election strategy worked. In every case I can think of, at least in recent history, it has failed miserably. It's a perfect record of failure, in fact.

[Justice]

28. Sad

Very sad that instead of sharing with us all why a candidate is so great, some posters feel the need to keep posting like this. It demeans the conversation - I feel like Laura Ingraham is on this board!

Who decides what is relevant? One person unilaterally decides that Clark's comments about the bush administration are vitally relevant but Dean's behavior in going to his draft physical are not at all relevant?

Do posts like this make the reader think more about Dean and less about Clark? I don't think so - people look at the tone of the message and no one gets to the substance really because the tone is so sarcastic and just plain ugly.

[CWebster]

31. That maks sense

a chastisment for all not sharing in the greatness while complaining of criticisms against one while endorsing criticisms against another.

That works.

[TLM]

102. Dean's actions with regard to vietnam are not contradictory to Dem values

whereas Clark saying at a repuke fundraiser what great leaders Bush Sr. And Reagan were, is a direct contradiction with dem values.

If those are Clark's ideas of great leadership... I do not want him as my leader.

[TLM]

95. Exactly.... I sure never saw not going to vietnam as a huge issue

with so called democrats until the Clark Corps rolled in and started spewing this REPUBLICAN bash against Dean.

We've got a group of people who are actualy attacking Dean for getting rejected by the draft board one day, then the next day they're making excuses for why it is OK that Clark thinks murdering journalists is perfectly OK.

These are NOT democrats... no democrat would attack another dem for "draft dodging" then turn around and defend a man who was trying to profit off 9-11 by selling his influence as a lobbyist for defense contractors like axicom.

[Skwmom]

24. He came with X-rays in hand.

In addition, I've read some accountants which state that he also had a letter from his family doctor. Obviously Dean was concerned enough to inquire what records might be out there regarding this matter.

[Hep]

45. You never answer this followup question

Do you think the doctors should NOT have had his full medical history?

[Hep]

56. Like I said, NEVER

gonna have to save this thread.

[Scott Lee]

72. Wouldn't you, if you had the same condition?

.

[TLM]

103. Once again ... a Dean Basher with no facts.

If you had a pre-existing condition, you were supposed to bring your records to the induction.

Go see any NEW doctor and the first thing they'll ask you for is a copy of your old records, or for you to grant them permision to request a copy from the old record holder.


Hell I got a letter from my doctor about my knees when I was 12 that got me excused from PE fo the rest of my time in middle and high school. Are you saying I was a rich child of privilage too?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

113. Did he bring his x-rays to the ski slope?

It's a slippery slope for sure.

[Hep]

116. Can the bar go lower?

X-rays to the ski slope? Jesus!

I can't believe you allow yourself to treat other democrats this way.

[sangh0]

122. Ask Dean

Maybe he can call the other Dems "Bush*-lite" or "cockroaches" again.

[TLM]

134. Well both Clark and Kerry supported war in Iraq... that's Bush Light

But maybe you're right and they just wanted to bring the same freedom and joy to the Iraqi people that they both helped bring to the Vietnamese people?

Tell me how many babies must a candidate have murdered in an illegal war to be considered a viable candidate by you?

[TLM]

129. One has to question your use of the term OTHER

These folks bashing Dean for not marching off to slaugher villiagers in vietnam, as they make excuses for a man who worked as a defense contractor lobbyist and said he thinks is it OK to murder journalists, are not exactly what I would consider democrats.

So how can you accuse them of bashing OTHER democrats?

That's like accusing a freeper of bashing OTHER well educated and informed people.

[TLM]

127. How many babies did Clark and Kerry kill in vietnam?

Two can play at this game.



In fact is it Dean or Clark who is on record supporting the murder of journalists during war time?

[sangh0]

128. How hypocritical!

You think it's wrong to do that, but you'll do it anyway because "They started it!"

[TLM]

131. Hey you set the standards here

Don’t cry when I simply respond to emotional BS crap arguments in kind.


Why should anybody bother responding to you bashers with reason and logic when you ignore it and simply repeat your BS ad hock crap over and over?

It is much easier to simply ask you why you so enthusiastically support the murder of Vietnamese children that you'd make it a prerequisite for a president?


Don't like your own medicine?

[sangh0]

133. More hypocrisy

You admit it's wrong to do, but you also insist it's OK when you do it.

Why should anybody bother responding to you bashers with reason and logic

Because it's the right thing to do.

It is much easier to simply ask you why you so enthusiastically support the murder of Vietnamese children that you'd make it a prerequisite for a president?

So your excuse is "laziness"?

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

145. TLM admits posting "BS emotional arguments"

that's all I wanted to hear

[TLM]

174. LOL! I say I respond to your BS emotional arguments in kind...

And you say "TLM admits posting "BS emotional arguments""


Guess you missed the first part.

[sangh0]

183. It still means "TLM admits posting 'BS emotional arguments'"

.

[TLM]

188. In response to Sangh0's BS emotional arguments....

like I said, guess you missed that whole response in kind part.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Time-out. My family has never been rich...

...and quite a few people have accused us of being a little slow on the up-take.

I was given 4F status in 1972 (physically unable to serve) following a car wreck and an injury to an ankle that required the insertion of a permanent screw. I did the same thing Dean did because you had to notify the local draft board anytime your draft status changed. I took in my x-rays, their doctor examined me, and I left on my crutches with a new 4F draft status.

It was somewhat ironic that I ended up joining the Navy in 1976, and needed a medical waiver on my ankle to get in.

[TLM]

83. Once again how does money come into this at all?

Are you claiming they bought off the doctors at teh draft induction?


Are you claiming only the rich had access to even basic healthcare int he 60's?


How did Dean's family or their money make any difference? Even if Dean was dirt poor, he'd still have had the back problem and it would have either shown up at the physical or in boot camp, so what's with trying to spin this into some issue of privilage?

[Eloriel]

136. That's an overstatement of the facts -- fairly severe one

Your description better applies to Bush than Dean. Or are you saying their experiences were somehow equivalent?

[Catshrink]

17. Better than going AWOL

like Jr.

[BiggJawn]

21. Rove had better get the word out...

"Ix-nay of the Draft Odger-day!"

With the illustious military careers of most the ReTHUG Chickenhawks, they'd be well-served to NOT look at the Democrat hopefuls' military records....

[Skwmom]

25. Rove WILL use this in the general election.

You can count on it.

[CWebster]

27. And they will use the military chiefs to pound Clark

You can count on it.

[Justice]

29. Fair Enough

That is fine that the military chiefs - who are they now? First of all there are not very many of them. Most chiefs (and the rank and file) have and will speak well of Clark).

Franks - who is now telling us that we are one strike away from martial law, okay, that will really put into perspective his views about saving people in Bosnia.

Shelton - who has refused to make further comment on his remarks about Clark - thereby making it sort of hard to believe his initial comments.

Norman - who bases his entire view on what Shelton said. Hmm.

[tsipple]

30. Did the DeeJay Serve?

Somebody ought to call in and say, "Well, go volunteer. Right now. On air. Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. You pick."

Another somebody ought to talk about how Bush couldn't be bothered to show up to his unit in Alabama.

[Justice]

32. Discussion Misses The Point

This is not about the relative worth of Vietnam. This discussion is about putting up a nominee with credentials that can (i) counter Bush's "credentials" and (2) has experience to get us out of Iraq and lead us in this new century.

MAJOR issues include Iraq, our allies, terrorism, Bin Laden, Al Queda. Clark has experience negotiating with allies, bringing together coalitions, and has experience fighting a war and as a commander of troops. Those specific experiences are enormously valuable and can bring us out of Iraq and repair the damage done with allies. Clark has done this and can do it again. That is what people want to hear.

Dean did not fight in Vietnam, just as Bush did not. Bush was AWOL with no excuse or deferment or anything. Dean was excused. They are the same in that they did not serve. Dean can say Bush should be in jail for being AWOL - but le'ts say we agree on that == you know what - that doesn't get us out of Iraq. The discussion about Dean/Bush's military careers does nothing to get us out of Iraq. It is just lots of negative back and forth. What does Dean know about getting us out of Iraq. In the end, that is what people want to hear.

[tsipple]

33. Zero Evidence That'll Work

Max Cleland (war hero) lost.
Al Gore (Vietnam veteran) lost.
Bob Dole (World War II war hero) lost.
George W. Bush (World War II war hero) lost.

In the last three presidential elections, plus the Georgia Senate race, the war hero (or stronger veteran) has lost. It's a perfect, unbroken record of defeat for the veterans.

Voters don't care about your resume. All elections are about the future. And since Democrats were the ones arguing in 1992 (and 1996) that a draft-dodging, pot-smoking, womanizing candidate was best for the country, we're a bunch of hypocrites if we say otherwise now. (Not that we have anyone running that fits any of those descriptions, but carping about how Bush was AWOL isn't going to do anything. He was already (s)elected.)

Today we have yet another poll, in Iowa, showing Clark weakest against Bush (and slightly outside the margin of error). I'm frankly getting tired of Clark supporters telling me how awesomely awesome Clark is against Bush when the polls say no such thing. Prove it by winning the nomination and the election. Because otherwise it's just all hot air.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

54. EXACTLY!!! Dean takes 'the AWOL issue' OFF the table!!!

Only Kerry and Clark can hammer Bush on it! YOu should win a prize for that post 'Justice'!

[Scott Lee]

70. Really? When did Dean go AWOL?

Dr. Dean actually showed up to answer his draft call. Can you point to us where Dean went "AWOL" considering he was never accepted into military service?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. The issue would be confused

It's "draft dodger" thru deferrment vs. draft dodger thru the national guard. And people see Dean's ski holiday as contradictory to the claim of disability.
The point is Kerry and Clark draw a clear contrast, while Dean just muddies the debate.

[Hep]

74. nsl

“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.”

John Kerry, 1992

[NewYorkerfromMass]

75. And others will do the "inserting"

too bad.

[Hep]

77. Others like Kerry and Clark and Cleland.

It is too bad that Kerry's values have changed this much. I liked him better before.

[Scott Lee]

82. So when facts are introduced, you run?

Let me ask again....

When did Howard Dean go AWOL?

Now remember your inability to prove this, and use that when the repukes want to bludgeon Dean with it.


Facts. They aren't just for breakfast anymore.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

86. Fact: Dean has been smeared

I am not under any illusion that politics is a clean and solely fact based affair. Dean has now been smeared by the appearance, based in the facts, that he "dodged the draft" Bush's AWOL has nothing to do with this other than the fact both men did what they could to avoid he front lines.

[Hep]

98. In your eyes

He's been smeared. But then, you're nothing if not completely biased against him. That you would project your bias on the populace is more than a little arrogant.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

101. Good luck with the populace

I wish you well.

[Hep]

107. Thanks

Things have been going great so far.

[sangh0]

88. Straw man

No one said Dean went AWOL. The issue here is "Did Dean dodge the draft?"

[TLM]

108. So basicly your ownly qualification for president...

is being able to say GOTCHA to bush on the military issue by having served in Vietnam?


Are you seriously that naïve as to think that makes a damn bit of difference whatsoever?

I have two words for you… Max Cleland.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

111. Max Cleland ran against Bush for President?

I didn't know that.

[TLM]

141. Max Cleland was a vet who lost three limbs in war time...

and lost his election to accusations of not being patriotic enough.


You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that hawking it up is a surefire way to victory, but the facts prove otherwise.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

170. Cleland is campaigning for Kerry now

so I believe he took a different lesson from his defeat.

[Hep]

172. Yeah it appears he did:

underhanded sniping works.

Or, the best way to gain support is to use dirty tricks

Who cares if it's right or wrong if it gets Kerry elected I guess.

Funny though, that Clinton won, with help and defense from Kerry. Too bad he has taken the role of Bob Kerrey this time.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

176. Here I am. A lifelong Democrat, yet I can see Dean's vulnerability here

like I said, good luck selling him in a general election.

[Hep]

180. And like I said

Even with your vehement opposition, we'll be fine.

You're the one I'm worried about. Will you even bother to vote if you have to vote for satan himself? Time will tell. You'll look silly voting for someone you despise.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

189. If you think this is vehement opposition

then you are in for a very rude and unpleasant awakening out there in America, where Dean will be seen as very unpatriotic.

[Hep]

211. LOL

You think what you post isn't vehement opposition? LOL!

What do you think the right wingers will bring up that you haven't already?

[TLM]

208. I don't know a lot of democrats who promote a war criminal/profiteer

while attacking a democrat for getting a medical deferment from the draft.

[QC]

34. Smart enough?

I suppose my father and his three brothers were just real dumb for serving in three wars. (One brother in WWII, father and one brother in Korea, another brother in Korea and Vietnam.)

Too bad they were just dumb rubes, I guess.

Geez, I can't imagine where people get the impression that a lot of Democrats look down on people who serve in the military.

[tsipple]

39. We Don't

Quite the opposite, actually.

But Democrats just got through arguing, in 1992 and 1996, that someone who really did stretch the draft deferrment system (i.e. Clinton) ought to be President over genuine World War II war heroes (Bush and Dole). (Note that none of the Democrats running are in that category.)

We're hypocrites if we argue otherwise now. And that's the trouble I have with the Clark campaign. Basing a near-entire election strategy (apparently) on a military service resume just isn't going to work. It's simply bad politics.

Voters have already decided, over and over, that it just doesn't matter to them. I don't know if that's good or bad. (It might even be good, because if we started rewarding people at the ballot box simply for military service, we'd have something closer to Sparta -- a military-dominated state. Heck, we might even go to war more often so future politicians could get their resumes in order.)

There's a great tradition of civil control over the military in this country. Which means that all Americans are equal at the ballot box, regardless of military service. If you start arguing otherwise, I think you unravel that great tradition, that the military takes orders from the civilians.

Note carefully what I'm saying. Wesley Clark has exactly the same right (and chance) in my mind to become President. But I reject the notion he ought to get some special dispensation because he served in the military. Voters certainly don't seem to care.

[QC]

42. Did you mean to respond to a different post?

My complaint was about the "smart enough to stay out of Vietnam" crap in the thread header.

It implies that the more than 500,000 men and women who did serve there were just too dumb to get out of it, and fails to recognize that privilege, or the lack of it, were the main determiners of who had to go and who got to stay at home.

Nowhere have I argued that generals should automatically get to be president.

[Beaker]

37. Same story in Chicago. Don Wade on WLS blasting Dean-

For admitting over the weekend that he dodged the draft?

I didn't hear all the particulars, but I'd bet that it must be one of the main topics in KKKarl Rove's monday morning blast-fax with instructions to his radio-minions.

[Loonman]

38. Yeah, funny how he was okay enough to ski

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/74964.html

:shrug:

[Hep]

46. Hilarious

No one should have fun if they didn't fitrst pay their dues by fighting in an unjust war.

Amazing how many fucking medical experts crawl out of the woodwork.

[TLM]

112. Yeah funny how every republican who makes this acusation....

can't answer this simple question.


How is sking more stressful on the back than boot camp or combat.


Let me know when you get the blast fax with an answer to that one.

[Loonman]

179. Ahhh...I think Dean is a little dubious with his past

And suddenly I'm a Republican.


Why don't you two go play hide and go fuck yourselves?

[Hep]

44. what do you expect

when even democrats are accusing him of it here?

[Snellius]

48. The difference is that Dean admits it

Of course he dodged the draft, everybody with any sense at the time dodged the draft. Dean admitted he could have probably gone. This will only hurt him if he falls into the trap like Clinton and start saying things like "I didn't inhale."

[phirili]

50. Howard Brush Dean # 103; wonder who was # 104 for Vietnam, is he stupid

[Hep]

52. ???

Trying so hard, aren't you? It's baffling.

[Scott Lee]

71. You don't "dodge the draft" by showing up to the draft board.

Which is what Dean did. How is getting rejected by a draft board "dodging the draft", again?

[sangh0]

76. That's EXACTLY what "draft-dodgers" do

If they openly refuse to cooperate with Selective Service, they are "draft resisters". Draft resisters break the law and flaunt it, and sometimes they even deliberately try to get arrested for their draft resistance. They do this for the same reasons Martin Luther King Jr and his followers deliberately broke laws - in order to have the laws changed by demonstrating the injustice of the law.

Dean did nothing to change the draft laws. He made no sacrifice on behalf of others. Instead, he avoided being drafted by bringing medical documentation to his draft board. He didn't bring it to show how qualified he was.

Clinton went to his draft board, and he was accused of draft-dodging. Quayle also went to his draft board, and he too was accused of draft-dodging. That's because reporting to the draft board (or not) isn't what draft-dodging is about. Draft-dodging is when the potential draftee makes an effort to avoid (ie "dodge") being drafted.

[Scott Lee]

84. Bullshit. How did Dean "dodge" the draft?

Clear medical/physiological evidence that one might not be fit to serve is not even in the same galaxy as student deferrments or "well military service isn't in my priorities right now (Dick Cheney)".

No one in their right mind would saunter into a draft board and say "Hey sign me up right now, I can't WAIT to end up face down in a rice paddy!", now would they? Ergo, it's not a "dodge" to present real and solid evidence that you can't do the "job", is it?

The lengths you Deanophobes will go to smear the Doctor is beyond laughable.

[sangh0]

90. Asked and answered

He brought his medical condition to the Selective Service's attention for the purpose of not being drafted. Dean has already publicly admitted that he brought those medical records along in order to avoid serving.

No one in their right mind would saunter into a draft board and say "Hey sign me up right now, I can't WAIT to end up face down in a rice paddy!", now would they? Ergo, it's not a "dodge" to present real and solid evidence that you can't do the "job", is it?

Thousands of people in their right minds DID enlist. Many thought it was a good way to escape poverty, (Many of them were right. Many others are dead) so your initial assumption is wrong.

"Draft-dodging" means "avoiding service". We call Limbaugh a "chickenhawk" because he avoided service. It's draft-dodging, even though Rush really did have an anal cyst.

[Scott Lee]

143. You mean dodged and avoided?

Let me see, you think they were "in their right mind" to want to trapse off to a bullshit war and die for nothing?

OK, that's in sync with your logic so far, so let's continue...

You equate showing realtime medical and physiological evidence to a draft board with "dodging" the draft? Are you suggesting that the draft board was under orders to look for those who might want to dodge service and assist them in doing so? Because unless you can show that Howard Dean had no real, valid reason not to be drafted, then that's what you're left with.

And both you and I know that it's bullshit.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

89. Semantics, nothing but semantics....

...what's the point behind this little exercise in hair-splitting?

[sangh0]

92. Tell that to the people who won't vote for a draft-dodger

If you think yelling "Semantics" is going to get people who think Dean is a draft-dodger to vote for Dean, I wish you luck.

[TLM]

144. Tell that to the people who won't vote for a baby killer

If you think yelling "Semantics" is going to get people who think Clark and Kerry are baby killers to vote for Clark or Kerry, I wish you luck.


See shang0... bullshit arguments are interchangable because they're not based on anything substantive.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Snellius]

96. You either volunteered or you dodged the draft. That was it.

And I never knew anyone who wanted to go. Some dodged it by going to school. Some dodged by getting into the Guard. Some went to Canada. Some faked backaches. Some suddenly turned gay. Some suddenly went nuts. Some punctured their eardrums. Some took amphetamines until their blood pressure went through the roof. Some got caught. Some got away with it. There was nothing illegal or even unpatriotic about it. It was just a fact of life and death. Your number came up low you die. Your number came up high you live.

[sangh0]

105. Wrong

There were people who did not volunteer and who also did not avoid the draft. They were called "draftees"

[TLM]

114. Oh I see so anybody who was rejected or defered dodged the draft?

That's you definition... that anybody who went to the draft induction and ended up not going to war, was a draft dodger?



You people will sink so low to bash Dean that it is disgusting.

[sangh0]

117. NO, anybody that TRIED to get rejected

dodged the draft.

[Scott Lee]

155. so are you saying that Dean wouldn't have gone even if drafted?

That's what you imply with "tried to get rejected' = draft dodge. When you present valid physiological evidence to a draft board that might conflict with your ability to serve, how is that "dodging"? If he had been that hellbent onm "dodging" he would have split to Canada.

You have made a miserable case for your argument.

[sangh0]

185. I am saying "Dean is a draft dodger"

because he DID try to avoid serving. I said nothing about what Dean would do in some fantasy of yours

[TLM]

209. Oh wow so the men who served and the men who died in vietnam...

are draft dodgers according to you if they even tried not to end up in vietnam?

That's a rather disgusting position.... typical for a Dean basher though.

[sangh0]

214. Attempted draft-dodging

and there's nothing "disgusting" about that. What makes you say it's "disgusting"? Or is that just one of those "BS emotional arguments" you claim to dislike?

[Duder]

51. All the more reason to...

vote for Howard Dean, imo.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

58. Yeah!

You left out serial rapist and satan worshipper.

But you're getting close!

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

61. Better a smart ass than a dumb ass

as they say. You made the bed, now get in.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

62. Dean's no socialist, he's a centrist.

.

[Hep]

63. But still

a satan worshipper and serial rapist.

[Scott Lee]

85. you left out "...who can beat Bush".

.

[sangh0]

93. One problem

Dean does poorly against Bush* in a face to face contest, relative to the other candidates.

[TLM]

118. No he doesn't....

Dean is in a statistical dead heat with Bush and he hasn't even started to fully focus his campaign against him, and Dean is trending up while Bush is trending down.


Dean will stomp Bush and the draft issue won't matter anymore with Dean than it did with Clinton.

[sangh0]

123. Dean is the worst

in a head to head with Bush*. While Dean is tied with Bush*, the other leading Dems actually BEAT Bush*.

[TLM]

115. BLM why can;t you answer a simple question...

about this vast transformation you claim Dean has made... you make the claim, and I point out the pile of liberal and moderate positions Dean had as Gov and ask you how he has changed, then you suddenly get real quiet.


Until you run to some other thread to repeat the talking point.

[Hep]

119. She does the same thing to me

I've been trying to get a response to this post for a week now. Never a response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=753339&mesg_id=754019&page=

[sangh0]

121. A short list of Dean's flip-flops

Cuba embargo
Balanced Budget Amendment
CFR
Assault Weapons Ban
Affirmative Action
Medicare
nuclear waste
Iraq invasion
87$billion Iraqi reconstruction
Social Security
NAFTA

[TLM]

215. You keep making this list... yet no links, sources, quotes, or anything

Because when you do, you lies and spin are exposed for what they are.

Dean has had some changes on given issues, or in ways to approch a given issue over the last 10 or 15 years. To take a position today and scream that it doesn't match up with half a sentence from a quote 10 years ago is not a flip flop.

Changing a position on a situation that has CHANGED over the last 10 years, is not a flip flop.


But I know you folks got nothing else to go on, so what should we expect?

[blm]

135. Answered a few times. AWB, Yucca Mt,. deregulation, global free trade.

He's changed his stance on all of those that should have been bedrock Democratic principle issues.

[Hep]

137. There's our list of one wrod answers again. Never any elaboration.

And never a response to this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=753339&mesg_id=754019&page=

[sangh0]

139. You mean, you don't know about Dean's flip-flops?

No wonder you support him.

[Scott Lee]

160. "attack the critic, ignore the issue"

Sorry, I was waiting to see that being thrown back in your face. Thanks for the opening :)

[Hep]

165. I'll post it again for "Ignored"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=753339&mesg_id=754019&page=

Will we get a response today? Prolly not, since one word answers won't suffice.

[Hep]

181. Apparently this is a good way to keep him away from the thread

I'm going to use this link more often, considering its success repelling every mindless dean basher that comes around.

[sangh0]

192. Please do

I have a response which will be PM's to the poster who responded.

[TLM]

216. Yet you can;t provide links or sources or site full quotes or anything

but repeat your accusations.


As I said, Dean's record in VT is that of a moderat dem, and he's running as a moderate dem. So where's the big change?

[bushisanidiot]

67. Let The Fools Bring Up Deans 1Y Deferment. More Ammo Against AWOL/Deserter

Bush!! EVERY time they bring it up, AWOL's service record needs to be brought up. Dean was turned down by the military. He didn't do anything sneaky to get out of it. However, AWOL got his daddy to get him into the national guard so he'd be safe and the chimp went AWOL then became a DESERTER!!! He's a traitor to his country! Just let the chickensh*ts bring up Dean's 1Y! At least he showed up for his physical.. unlike AWOL!

[janx]

97. I can't wait until the primaries are over. Really guys, knock

off this constant candidate bashing, please!

We are going to have a historic administration. The general election is less than one year away.

We're in this together now.

There is no need to bash General Clark or Governor Dean.

Chimpy is the one who revels in division. Let's not do a Chimpy here, hmmm?

Edit: rfranklin, this post is not directed at you--I just posted it generally.

[Clark Can WIN]

104. And I would just ask this

Do you expect that to stop............ ever......... if Dean were our nominee? Do you think the fact that Bush awol'ed is going to make a bit of difference?

If Dean is the nominee there is no end to the mountains of material they will have to rip him to pieces. It'll be a nightmare. Dean would lose. Look for the draft to kick in very soon after. Then more of Dean and Bushes ilk will buy and lie their way out and the whole bloody, sorrid cycle can continue unabated and the Bush cabal can collect their prize money.

[TLM]

120. Yeah that's it... find a war monger like CLark

who is so close to the right wing agenda that the right wingers won't be able to attack him... that's a great plan.

[sangh0]

125. More "attack the critics, ignore the issue"

that we've come to expect from the rabid posters.

[Scott Lee]

157. More high school debate dodges due to lack of facts.

.

[sangh0]

193. more "attack the critic, ignore the issue"

.

[TLM]

219. What issue... the issue that the republicans will attack?

My comment is in direct response to that issue... pointing out that simply trying to be such right wing hawk that the right wingers can;t attack on those issues without attacking themselves is a bad idea.

First and foremost it means a loss before the contest starts, because we're runnign a republican to avoid attacks from republicans. Either way the right wing hawks are the ones who win because either way a right wing hawk wins.

Second, as Max Cleland and Al Gore showed us... being a vet or a hero makes no difference in the repuke attacks on patriotism. Clark and Kerry will be no different, and will be hit with the same kind of attacks. Attacks to which you are now lending value in order to attack Dean and I'm sure republicans are very greatful to you for your help.

[Hep]

222. All bashers have bought the premise

that even though they know it's wrong and underhanded, using right wing tactics is an effective means of discourse.

I wish I could say that all Dean fans are above it, but it wouldn't be true.

[truthspeaker]

109. notice how draft dodging was a big issue when Clinton was running

but a non-issue when McCain (war hero) ran against Bush (draft dodger/deserter) for the nomination and when Gore (veteran) ran against Bush in the election?

[Forkboy]

196. Funny how people who say that want to beat Bush the most

use Bush tactics and right-wing talking points :shrug:

[sangh0]

203. I thought you liked Dean

even though he uses Repub-lite arguments like "We need a BBA", "Medicare is wasteful", "Free trade creates jobs", "Not in my backyard" (nuclear waste), "criminals go free because of legal technicalities", "Lack of self-esteem causes poverty", and (you're favorite it seems) "there's no difference"

[Forkboy]

210. "and (you're favorite it seems) "there's no difference"

another sangha charge that you know you can't back up.

Why are you so eager to see a Dem lose?

[sangh0]

217. Dean is Bush*-lite

When Lott says something racist, the Repukes call Byrd a bigot

When a Republican gets caught in a sex act, the Repukes say "What about Clinton?"

When Enron crashed, the Repukes said "Dems took Enron money too"

And when Dems criticize Dean, you say "You're just like the Repukes"

[Forkboy]

218. so don't act like them

:shrug:

If a person is all too eager to make the Repub argument then they should learn to deal with the comparison.

[sangh0]

221. I agree. Dean should stop acting like a Repuke

and start being a real Dem

[Forkboy]

225. He's not the only one.

[Forkboy]

198. The Republicans would like to thank you Democrats

for doing their dirty work for them.

[janx]

223. I tried to point this out before.

But nobody paid any attention.

[Chomskyite]

226. Lots of this on local yokel Right-wing hate radio

Does this seem coordinated to you?

I for one welcome this. The more the Right tries to stigmatize those who opposed Vietnam, the better I like Dean or Clark's chances in 04.