Has your opinion of the JFK assassination changed this week?

[TruthIsAll]

Has your best opinion changed after following the JFK threads here at DU, viewing the ABC special, the History Channel's "Men who Killed Kennedy", the PBS Oswald documentary, etc.

Hopefully, DUers (especially those not around in 1963) are more knowledgeable about this subject as a result.

[EV1Ltimm]

1. I watched "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" on saturday...

and I'm a changed man. I'm going to become a card-carrying member of the grassy knoll society now :tinfoilhat:

[hlthe2b]

2. for those of us without history channel access...

I think they are releasing this on DVD in the next few weeks. I for one, look forward to finally seeing this.

[burr]

3. I was uncertain, I am uncertain.

I have always had doubts that Oswald was the lone assassin, and without conclusive evidence...such as a professionally-done autopsy, some accurate estimates of the scattered bullet remains left in Connelly and Kennedy, and having had a detailed public investigation of what happened near the time of the murder..I still have doubts about what happened.

I will state what I think is the truth, that we will never know what happened. At least until someone invents the time machine, and then we will have so many alternative realities that what is true in one reality will be false in another. But Einstein claims that traveling back in time is impossible, so I feel that the cause of Kennedy's death will always be in question. I do suspect that Oswald was involved, and that he had others working with him. I also suspect that those who wanted Kennedy dead also hated Castro, and blamed Kennedy for not taking him down. But these are opinions, not facts. Again, the single-bullet theory is exactly that...a theory. But none of these assassination theories will ever be proven IMHO.

[BrotherBuzz]

14. I do not disagree with your assessment

and frankly I'm exhausted trying to follow all the stories of late. Seems that every anomaly brought to surface just begs more questions to be asked, around and around. I'm just tired of it all and I feel cheated by the fact that I will never know for sure. Never.

I also suspect that those who wanted Kennedy dead also hated Castro, and blamed Kennedy for not taking him down.

That sums it up pretty well, and it's a large tent - Cuban exiles, Mafia instrests (Cuban casinos), rogue faction of the CIA , Military industrial complex, BFEE...the list is long, and all capable of pulling it off. Heck, The enemy of my enemy is my friend may apply because I'm inclined to believe all the parties may be involved in some capacity....Can you say coups d'Žtat?

We will never know with any certainty what really happened on that November day in 1963 except that our nation lost its innocences.

[On the Road]

4. Nixon's Two Comments Did it for Me

so much supposed evidence can be accounted for without a conspiracy. Coincidences happen, even unbelievable coincidences. But what Nixon said was straight from the horse's mouth. And on two occasions. Too bed he didn't elaborate.

To tell you the truth, the media and establishment are in such unanimity that I'm really surprised so many people in this country don't accept the lone assassin theory.

[karlschneider]

7. May I inquire as to what you were doing in November 1963? If you don't

care to answer, that's okay too.
Thank you.
;-)

[Octafish]

5. No, but it did change my opinion of a few DUers, though...

These presumably rational individuals — some with many posts and the golden star of financial devotion — resorted to tactics that can only be described as Rovian when confronting people with whom they disagreed. Odd behavior, considering on other topics they seem pretty much normal. By a guesstimated margin of about 7:1, the Lone Nutters provided the most rudeness. Please, don't ask me for a link, just look around.



"We're looking for the real killers. Together."

[karlschneider]

6. Uh, what is a "lone nutter"? That is a term with which I am unfamiliar.

[Octafish]

10. It describes a person who prescribes to "Oswald did it alone."

Oswald is just another "Lone Nut" assassin or would-be assassin, like:

John Hinckley

Mark David Chapman

Squeaky Fromme

Arthur Bremer

Sirhan Sirhan

etc.

Certainly these are all "Lone Nuts." Very lucky, in a coincidental way, too, as there often are more bullet holes than the Lone Nut's gun carries, but hey? What's a little treason among fiends, eh?

[Eloriel]

41. I can explain that

People get really defensive when their most deeply held belief systems are challenged. (This is in large part why The Big Lies don't get challenged by more people - why it's easier to get away with a Big Lie than the smaller lies.)

There's also this: Opinions (beliefs) arrived at emotionally cannot be successfully challenged via rational arguments. (I wish I knew who said that, but I don't.)

Eloriel

[Octafish]

42. Thanks, Eloriel!

That makes sense.

Going from memory: Marketers of soft drinks aim their big campaigns at the young. They know they can win a mindshare by being "firstest with the mostest stating they are the bestest." Translated into dollars, it costs about $40 per head to get the kid drinking Pepsi or Coke, but abut $600 per head to change their minds as adults.

The same phenom must happen in political warfare. After the JFK assassination, the powers-that-be did all they could to label Oswald as the Lone Nut assassin. And for years, anyone who questioned that, like New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, was labeled a "conspiracy nut."

Those who believe the Oswald as Lone Nut garbage spewed by J Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles can call me a moron or a kook, I don't care which. My mind's already made up both ways. Unlike OJ, I really am looking for the real killers.

[Snow]

8. I changed from "The CIA/BFEE did it"

to "The Mafia did it" based on a very convincing article at (I think) salon.com

[knight_of_the_star]

9. I'm still wondering about that though

Considering that the Secret Service was ordered to stand down on that specific day and there were a few things that happened that were NOT to protocol (like the change in the route), I think that someone high up contacted the Mafia to carry out the hit.

[Octafish]

11. Can the Mafia order the Secret Service to stand down?

... With all respect: Can the Mafia control the FBI investigation? Can the Mafia manage the media cover-up for four decades?

No, DU Friend Snow, only the US Government can do these things. Certainly, however, the Mafia played a major role in Dallas.

Here's a link to a QuickTime movie showing the Secret Service detail getting ordered off of JFK's limousine at Love Field in Dallas on 22 November, 1963. You might have to scroll down a bit for the view window.

http://www.jfklancer.com/SSoffcar.html

[Merlin]

12. Octafish...

You da MAN!

Good work. Between you and TIA, the truth will continue to live.

I seriously doubt we'll solve this case in our lifetimes. What we can do is just what King Arthur asked that little kid to do near the end of Camelot. Keep the truth alive: "Ask every person if he's heard the story, and tell it loud and clear if he has not..." (I'm not referring to the JFK "Camelot." But rather to the need to convey to the next generation the fact that this was a horrible crime against our nation, and until it is brought to light, and the perpetrators properly villified, it stands as a bleak precedent for behind-the-scenes machinations within our "democracy," such as it is.

[buycitgo]

13. saw that vid for the first time last week........stunning

have the hour long show on tape where they go into all the oddities surrounding the SS's activities before, during, and after the time Oswald "acted alone"

so funny that anyone could sing that silly song

other stuff that makes sense, hadn't thought of before:

how often does a presidential caravan have the PRESIDENT's limo go first????????

and how often are the outriding motorcycles sent BEHIND the limo, as well?

NO cars in front

NO cycles outriding

NO SS agents jogging alongside, to the front and sides,

All three of the above would obviously cut down the angles available for prospective shooters. simply astounding that this happened.

no expert I, it really hit me that this happened. who knows the regular drill for SS detail, regarding presidential parade SS protection details back then.

I do know that the SS supposedly destroyed lots of documents relating to how their protectioin was carried out that day.

combine that with the Milteer tape from Miami, which caused a complete change of plans WRT that visit (did they cancel it), plus the full page ad taken out in a Dallas paper WARNING JFK not co come, one would think the SS would be on the highest alert possible, ADDING agents, rather than letting some of them off.

wasn't it noted that there was NO SS presence in Dealy Plaza, except for the ones who kept people away from the fence, confiscated film, etc. AFTER the shots were fired?

just curious.......

[jsw_81]

18. Sigh

There were cars in front of the president's limo, one of which carried the Dallas Police chief. Your post contained almost a dozen other inaccuracies and distortions, too.

If I had a penny for every inaccuracy, distortion and flat out lie that I've seen from the conspiracy nuts I would be a very rich man.

[Octafish]

21. BFEE doesn't need your money. They want POWER.

Here's what we're talking about, jsw_81.



What part is innacurate? That there was a police car in the lead? BFD — one cop car. The President's limousine was still at the front of the motorcade, most importantly, UNPROTECTED.

Why bringing that up would bother some people is beyond me.

[buycitgo]

31. thanks, octafish!

wonder what this person's agenda is....seems to be well-informed, but dogmatic to the point of annoyance.

I don't pretend to know what happened, but the plausibility coincidence theory seems to be that of the immaculate conception, the transubstantiation, or that of Cronus giving birth to Zeus (scuse me if that last detail is off, but you get the dogma drift, yes)

whoever this person is seems completely certain of the events of that day, and, like the current administration WRT WMDs, is expert in denigrating/denying/ignoring ALL evidence, whether circumstantial or certifiable (certifiable in WHOSE eyes, Gerald Posner, heh) that doesn't fit his/her own preconceptions

waiting for a picture that shows another car in front of the limo RIGHT THERE at Dealy Plaze, not at the airport, or around the corner from the TBDP.

if it's there, fine, but I don't remember seeing one, or any cyles, either

[jsw_81]

37. Here you go

waiting for a picture that shows another car in front of the limo RIGHT THERE at Dealy Plaze, not at the airport, or around the corner from the TBDP.



You really are clueless, just like all the other conspiracy nuts. Here's a rag to clean all that egg off your face. LOL

And your claim that I'm "dogmatic to the point of annoyance" is laughable, especially when you consider that fanatical conspiracy nuts like TruthIsAll have started well over two dozen pro-conspiracy threads in the last few days alone. I haven't started any JFK threads whatsoever.

Oh well, I said on another thread that I wasn't going to discuss this topic any further and I'm going to stick to my pledge. See ya.

[Octafish]

40. After the fatal shot, that SS agent disregarded an order ...

... and hopped aboard JFK's limo to protect the President and First Lady. His name is Clint Hill and he's the ONLY SS agent to do their duty that day.

Again, who cares if the President's limo was first or second in line? The FACT is the Secret Service failed to do their duty that day. That's treason.

[buycitgo]

33. and another thing about that excellent photo

unless it's been altered, even if there's a cop car in front, out of frame, it might as well NOT HAVE BEEN there at all, as it's not doing any good at all.

look how CLOSELY the second limo follows the first, and where the outriders are.......BEHIND the first.

looks like the first car+cycles are protecting the second!!

pretty "funny," huh

can't wait for mr/ms self-assured's answer

well???????

hate to take that nickel away

[buycitgo]

26. sigh......

show me the pictures

show me the other inaccuracies

show me where the motorcyle outriders were

show me where the SS guys were when the limo slowed almost to a stop

show me EACH distortion and inaccuracy. take them point by point.

almost a dozen.....what, 11, 10, 9......6, 5? sounds like a distortion to me. If I had a nickel for each of yours, well, I'd have "almost" a million nickels

who the hell are you, Posner, McAdams, or just one of their credulous sycophants?

[buycitgo]

27. sigh.....love those sweeping assertions

show me the pictures of the cop car.....I don't remember them being in the Zapruder film; if so, then I'm wrong about that.

then,

show me the other inaccuracies

show me where the motorcyle outriders were

show me where the SS guys were when the limo slowed almost to a stop

heck, show me EACH distortion and inaccuracy. take them point by point.

almost a dozen.....what, 11, 10, 9......6, 5? sounds like a distortion to me. If I had a nickel for each of yours, well, I'd have "almost" a million nickels

who the hell are you, Posner, McAdams, or just one of their credulous sycophants?

upon what do you base your assertions, anyway?

unless you have the advantage of time travel, you must base them on various sources, and having cited none, why should anyone buy your oh-so superior interpretation of events?

spare me

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Emory Roberts was in command of the Secret Service car

and was the one who ordered agent Henry Rybka off the rear of JFK's limo.

What else did he do? After the first shot on Elm Street, he ordered his agents not to move.

What else did he do? After the head shot, he recalled agent John Ready who had left the car.

What else did he do? At Parkland hospital he usurped his superior's authority and attached himself to Johnson, who promoted him.

What else did he do? Die suspiciously in 1969.

See "the breakdown of Secret Service hierarchy and infrastructure":

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/03-VP.html

[buycitgo]

28. what about the well-documented theft of the corpse?

the US government had NO authority to take JFK's body.

It was a murder, subject to the county coroner.

didn't the SS (who else may it have been?) contingent get into a physical confrontation at the hospital, threatening at one point to pull weapons?

who has documentation of what actually happened there?

[Padraig18]

34. There was a confronation at the hospital.

I don't recall the details, but the Coroner (or someone acting on his behalf --- A Dallas cop, maybe?) basically said 'You're not taking that body anywhere until an autopsy's been performed--- that's Texas law' and a SS agent or group of agents just muscled the casket out of the hospital and into the hearse...

See post #16 as to why this bothers me so much.

[Solomon]

20. I still don't think the mafia did it because they don't shoot people

from long range like that. They usually do it in your face like Jack Ruby killed Oswald. They blow up cars and restaurants and such. Never heard of a long range mafia killing. If long range were their m.o. you would have seen a lot more mafia deaths being done that way.

I think the close range thing is done to insure the death. Wouldn't be good to try from long range and miss.

[Octafish]

24. Snipers are military marksmen.

The military works for the "government*."

Now, why would the "government" want to do in the President?

JFK didn't invade Cuba during the Bay of Pigs. Nixon woulda.

JFK didn't start WW III over the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nixon woulda.

JFK didn't want to escalate Vietnam into another Korea. Nixon woulda. Johnson did.

* Secret Government, the unelected traitors that make things happen from behind the scenes.

[DUreader]

15. kick

[Padraig18]

16. I'm still undecided.

The one crucial problem I have in deciding either way is the absolute lack of a proper forensic post-mortem examination of President Kennedy's body. The evidence that is available is contradictory and extremely troubling. Although I am certain that an exhumation of his body and a new post-mortem conducted by a team of independent, board-certified forensic pathologists will never occur, that would decide the question for me one way or the other. It's tragic that the 'best evidence' of what occurred that awful day still lies buried at Arlington National Cemetery, hermetically-sealed, well-embalmed and (likely) well-preserved, yet no one is willing to demand that it be examined.

:shrug:

[jsw_81]

17. These poll results are tragic

It's sad to see so many people fooled by the conspiracy bullshit. Oh well, believe what you want to believe, but the fact remains that Lee Oswald murdered President Kennedy and Officer Tippit, and no amount of conspiratorial BS will change that. Ever.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. some people who beg to differ:

Jesse Currie, Dallas Police Chief:
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand."
http://www.whoshotjfk.co.uk/Overview/

Jack Ruby:
"Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts, of what occurred, my motives. The people that had so much to gain and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world." QUESTION: "Are these people in very high positions Jack?" RUBY: Yes."
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neal.mccarthy/jfkvideos.htm

Eugene Dinkin, NSA crypto-operator in Metz, France:
According to an FBI report declassified in 1976, Dinkin warned several weeks before the assassination, "that a conspiracy was in the making by the military of the United States, perhaps combined with an 'ultra-right economic group."

Dinkin was a code-breaker, and was assigned to decipher telegraphic traffic originating with the far-right French OAS. There's considerable evidence an assassin was contracted from the OAS (which had already attempted to kill Charles de Gaulle). The CIA had used OAS men for covert work before. Howard Hunt - clanestine affairs chief in the CIA's Domestic Operations Division - was a contact for OAS sniper Jean Rene Souetre and the CIA (he met him in Madrid that Spring). Soutre helped train anti-Castro forces in the New Orleans area that summer. And Souetre is known to have been in Dallas November 22, and was deported 48 hours later.

Dinkin wrote Robert Kennedy directly in October 1963, telling that an attempt on his brother's life would be made in late November, and blame would be placed upon a communist designated as the assassin. Thinking it unlikely his warning would reach RFK, Dinkin left his unit without leave to contact the embassy in Luxembourg. The Charge d'Affaires promised to inform the Ambassador, but Dinkin learned the military was preparing to lock him up as mentally ill.
(info from Dick Russell's book about Robert Case Nagell, The Man Who Knew Too Much)

As all of us "conspiracy nuts" should be, I suppose.

[Octafish]

25. Look around with your own eyes. Is this America?

Presidents picked by Supreme Court partisans?

Corporate criminals forgiven and rewarded for stealing their stakeholders blind?

The US Constitution shredded because terrorists hate our freedom?

Elections controlled by black boxes?

Nations deemed threats because they contain oil?

Right. Nothing happened since Dallas that one man couldn't do.

[buycitgo]

29. ha ha...too bad 25% are fooled by coincidence bullshit

how bout somebody listing all the coincidences surrounding Oswald's ties to Mafia, CIA, FBI, just for starters.

mr/ms. authority, do you dispute the authenticity of the material in Newman's book, Oswald and the CIA?

why did the CIA lie its ass off/destroy evidence concerning said documented ties to Oswald?

you have an answer for everything

please deal with the above, and pls use some sources, for a change, so all can see where your own presuppositions lie, and to whose dogma you ascribe

[buycitgo]

30. and I spose you think the Bay of Pigs wasn't a conspiracy by our govt

nor was Mossadegh

or Arbenz (gee, Howard Hunt brags about his participation there)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/
in which massive documentation of the cynical, mendacious nature of CIA ops was partially revealed, via very grudging FOIA releases *

Diem assassinations

Trujillo

Allende

MK/Ultra....

just for starters, these.

CIA has zero credibility, and for someone like you, who so assiduously, slavishly spouts the CIA line, lends you as much cred as they have.

*"PBSUCCESS, authorized by President Eisenhower in August 1953, carried a $2.7 million budget for "pychological warfare and political action" and "subversion," among the other components of a small paramilitary war. But, according to the CIA's own internal study of the agency's so-called "K program," up until the day Arbenz resigned on June 27, 1954, "the option of assassination was still being considered." While the power of the CIA's psychological-war, codenamed "Operation Sherwood," against Arbenz rendered that option unnecessary, the last stage of PBSUCCESS called for "roll-up of Communists and collaborators." Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of sucessive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians."

[buycitgo]

32. "fact remains that Oswald killed Tippit"

according to whom?

those eyewitnesses who couldn't find their own asses with both hands?

the self-condtradictory ballistic evidence?

again, upon whose expertise/evidence do you rely?

for every assertion you make, an equal-opposite one, equally persuasive can be made.

whom to believe?

unfortunately for your cred, you choose to side with those who have a proven track record of subversion, assassination, invasion, media manipulation, etc., since their inception.

why on earth would anyone believe ANYthing they had to say about anything?

since you've cast your lot with them, why should anyone believe anything YOU have to say on this topic?

[Minstrel Boy]

35. sure, he just happened to drop a wallet at the scene containing ID,

though he'd left his wallet at home that day.

Happens all the time.

[buycitgo]

36. gee, is maybe Oswald still alive, and he did the same thing.....

with those conveniently discovered highjacker IDs found on top the rubble pile at ground zero?

[Padraig18]

23. Kick

[BGrier]

38. Exume The Body

Wouldn't that instantly clear up the disputed medical evidence and answer whether or not there was a conspiracy? This isn't going to happen anytime soon but it will happen someday - perhaps a few generations down the line.

[jsw_81]

39. Only if the Kennedy family allowed it

But they never will.