All of a sudden, Deaniacs don't mind draft-dodging

[Fixated]

I'm not anti-Dean...he's not my man but I like him.

But I can't help but notice that much of the crowd that was so adament about the AWOL Bush issue doesn't seem to have a problem with Dean's avoidance. Then they wonder how people can defend Bush. Everyone sticks with their man...

[Trek234]

1. Get used to it

You will find TONS of double standards among DUers. Even more than the Freepers in some cases.

For example, if I was a new poster and I said that I voted for Nixon/Raygun, said we needed people like Bush & pals to run our country, etc, I would be tombstoned and/or flamed like no other. However if you are Clark it's no problem and all is A-OK.

[jeter]

2. There is one difference

Dean had a legitimate medical condition that allowed him to not go to Vietnam. If you were against the war, as Dean was, and had an opportunity not to go wouldn't you take it? It's not like he lied about anything. He didn't want to go. He had the necessary medical documents and was allowed to stay.

Bush, on the other hand, joined the national guard to avoid duty. Then failed to show up.

The former, is a legitimate deferment. The latter, is a criminal offense.

[wyldwolf]

12. So did Rush Limbaugh...

nasty anal cysts!

[Deja Q]

21. Speaking of Rush's purported condition, or speaking of Rush and Bush?

:evilgrin:

[jeter]

22. But is Dean advocating sending other's children off to war?

I don't see this as a story at all.

Had he lied about a condition, that would be different. He had the necessary documentation. He opposed the war and didn't want to go. He didn't go.

[maxanne]

3. that's one reason the Republicans

always win. They stick together like brothers even when they hate each other's guts. We could certainly stand to emulate that particular characteristic. But - nitpicking at meaningless issues is so much more fun, isn't it?

There is also a difference between joining the military and deserting and a medical deferrment, imo.

[Wonk]

4. Medical deferment.

2. The subject line of a discussion thread and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include profanity, excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation. Inflammatory rhetoric should also be avoided.

[Fixated]

6. ....

I'm just pointing something out. Everything is "inflammatory" to an extent.

Also, the medical deferment thing...Dean admitted that he could have served. But many liberals, including myself, always looked at the AWOL issue as an ethical thing - you are asked to serve, you serve. That's why Limbaugh is still a chicken(hawk).

[SEAburb]

19. come on! That's not the way it was in the '70s

Nobody on the left begrudged anyone who chose not to serve. We viewed it as a personal choice and left it at that. I know I was there. I know people who got bogus medical deferments, I even know one guy who claimed he was gay, get out of the draft. And nobody thought the less of them on the left, if anything they thought more of them.

[Touchdown]

32. And I suppose making up the word "Deaniac"...

is just a term of endearment to your fellow liberals, who are supposed to be on your side, right? Hey, I'm just pointing something out.:eyes:

[Touchdown]

33. And I suppose making up the word "Deaniac"...

is just a term of endearment to your fellow liberals, who are supposed to be on your side, right? Hey, I'm just pointing something out.:eyes:

[Noordam]

5. Tons of differences between doing whatever not to be drafted

and going AWOL into DESERTION. And then there is the Coke and the medical......

[DeathvadeR]

7. Signing Up to kill people and being forced to are two different things.

[Touchdown]

8. How is it draft dodging again?

Let's see. Dean got called for a physical, because his draft number was up. He reported like he was supposed to. He got a medical deferement, which means they didn't want him. He then decided to live his life as a civilian, which included skiing, and there's nothing in The UCMJ to forbid a deferred conscript from doing that.

So, tell me. How is that, exactly, considered draft dodging?

BTW: I expect this post to be ignored.:eyes:

[Fixated]

11. ....

He admitted that he could have served. This is the kinda thing that Limbaugh did...and we all know he's a chickenhawk.

[ibegurpard]

16. The "chickenhawk" hypocrisy comes from cheerleading and

hyping war when you yourself avoided it. The charge would be appropriate for Dean, I think, were he doing that but he's not.

[Scott Lee]

18. Maybe you don't know what a "chickenhawk" is.

Let me help.

A chickenhawk is a person who avoids military service themselves but later on agitates for war when their ass is no longer on the line.

Bush did this. Cheney did this. Limbaugh did this. Dean did not. Clinton did not.

[Touchdown]

25. I want an answer to "DRAFT DODGING"

Not Chickenhawk. Will you please try again?

[benddem]

9. There's a big difference between

someone who was against the war, wasn't a cheerleader for it who avoided service and the chickenhawks. My brother has the same condition as Howard Dean. He got into the Army and was released after 14 months. If he had injured his back in Vietnam due to a condition he was born with...you and I would be paying for it for the rest of his life. My brother even jumped out of airplanes and skied up until an ankle injury sidelined him. It is one of those things you can go all your life and be OK but one wrong move and your cooked. The military has no desire to have people in service with this condition.
Bush used his connections to get into the Air Guard...stepped in front of Hundreds of people and wasn't qualified. He then deserted.
Rush Limbaugh had a pilonidial cyst. He must have screamed loud and long to get out of the service with that...as many service personnel have that condition. He was probably fat too.
:grr:

[WilliamPitt]

10. I'm going to light myself on fire

because threads like this are too entertaining to bear.

[Skwmom]

13. It's called hypocrisy and it's not just the draft issue. e/o/m

[Schmendrick54]

36. I guess you are accusing me of hypocrisy.

Hello Skwmom.

According to Merriam-Webster online, hypocrisy is "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion"

I turned 19 in 1973. As I recall, that was the first year when no one was drafted. Although I was a college student, I did not ask for a deferment, because the odds were against me being drafted that year and if I got a deferment I would have been subject to the draft later, when the odds may have changed. It is also true that I could have enlisted and volunteered to serve in Vietnam. In a sense then "I could have served", but I did not. I thought the war in Vietnam was a mistake. This strikes me as a morally consistent and defensible position. I never thought of myself as a "draft-dodger" , although by making myself eligible for the draft in 1973 rather than postponing it, my goal was to minimize the odds that I would be drafted, which seems to meet the definiton that some DU posters (not you necessarily) have been using lately.

There are people such as General Clark and Vice President Gore who felt a duty to serve and did so. I regard them (and all veterans who served honorably) as worthy of my profound thanks and respect (and the medical care and other benefits they were promised but which Bush feels are not as important as Ken Lay's tax cut). I feel there behavior is also consistent with what they profess to believe.

And then there are those who are commonly referred to as chickenhawks. Namely those who claimed to believe that our interests in Vietnam were worth risking lives for, just not their own. One such example is pResident Bush, who used family connections to get a National Guard slot to avoid the risk of being drafted (and sent to Vietnam) and then did not fulfill his obligation, while maintaining that others should risk their lives in this war.

I do not see anything hypocritical at all about criticizing Bush for his actions and not criticizing Howard Dean, but apparently you do. If you said that someone like Gen Clark (or Al Gore) who served in Vietnam could provide a stronger contrast to Bush's dishonorable behavior, and therefore exploit this more effectively, I would agree with you. But I think that using terms like draft-dodger to refer to Dean or hypocrisy to refer to his supporters just does not seem justified to me.

[ibegurpard]

14. Dean didn't dodge the draft

Dodging the draft is running to Canada. Showing up and being given a medical disqualification, despite what you people desperate to keep pushing this issue would have everyone believe, is NOT dodging the draft.

[Demobrat]

15. Nope. We don't mind draft-dodging,

baby killing, animal mutilating (he did cut one of the legs off of his cat, you know) or skipping church on Sunday. We don't care if he steals candy from babies or drowns puppies. Dean could kick our grandparents off of medicare and then push them in front of a milk truck and we would laugh. Dean is God and we are his minions and we will follow him off of a cliff if that's what he wants. Heck, we will jump off the cliff first in order to soften his landing. That's just how it is and there is nothing you can do about it and never will be. Now, where's my credit card? It's payday and I have to send Dean some more cash.

[Scott Lee]

17. All of a sudden, DeanHaters vacation from truth

Here are the facts. AWOL is not the same as doing what you can, legally, to keep from being drafted. Dean did nothing wrong. He did not "draft dodge". He showed up for his appointment with the board, with valid medical records clearly in hand in a bid to keep from being drafted. He is to be commended for successfully, legally staying out of an illegal, immoral war. Dean went on to criticize a war mentality, and rightly oppose this horrendously wrong war we are now in.

Bushhole, on the other hand, pretended to be serving while assured a cushy stateside assignment out of harms way. I'll bet a Vermont can of fresh maple syrup that Dean would have happily gone if he'd been promised such a deal. Then, Bushhole went AWOL - which is illegal - during the last several months of his "service". He grew up to gain the White House, and start a war he never stood any danger of personally fighting.

That is the difference. Rinse, repeat.

[DrFunkenstein]

24. Hold Up A Minute There, Guy

1. Avoiding the draft is not commendable. Resisting is. I don't knock him for it, but I sure as hell ain't going to pat him on the back.

2. When did Dean ever criticize a "war mentality?" First of all, he never protested Vietnam, if that's what you mean. Secondly, he criticized the terms of the invasion, not any "war mentality." In fact, he has made a point of saying he supported virtually every major intervention since Vietnam.

And not to defend Bush, who is the lowest form of scum, but at least he flew jets (until his flying privileges were revoked because his cocaine-addled ass refused to take the drug test). For what it's worth, that is a little more dangerous than the slopes of Aspen.

[Touchdown]

28. I don't know...

Have you been on the slopes of Aspen lately?;-)

[Demonaut]

20. Its one thing to be found physically incapable

But another to take a very solemn oath then break it..Nor does Dean advocate sending soldiers in harms way to secure corporate interests. Bill Clinton ran from the draft because of his convictions...George Bush is a true Coward, the kind of guy who picks on the weak..he's the kind of friend who would'nt back you up in a fight. He's yellow thru and thru. He's a punk.

[Kinkistyle]

23. dodging draft = escaping slavery

Do you blame the Slaves in the Old South of being "Slavery-Dodgers" when they tried to escape to the North? There is nothing wrong with dodging the Draft, because forced conscription is immoral and equivalent to slavery to the State.

On the other hand, there IS something wrong with being a warmonger despite dodging a war, and going AWOL after enlisting.

[DrFunkenstein]

27. Dean Did Not RESIST The Draft

So I find your analogy a little tortured.

<>

[Kinkistyle]

29. I know. I was kind of defending myself and folks like me.

Because there is an implication that draft dodging is bad, and I would dodge a draft to populat an invasion army in a heartbeat.

[kiahzero]

26. It wasn't draft-dodging

If I showed up to a similar meeting with medical records in hand, talking about how my colon gets destroyed by my immune system unless I have the right drugs at the right time, etc, would that be draft-dodging?

How about we talk about issues instead of stupid crap like this?

[yellowdog]

30. I have no idea how old you are, Fixated,

but you sound as if you have no clue what things were really like during the Vietnam draft. I turned 18 in 1965 and took my draft physical in the summer of 1966. My best friend went at the same time. When we got home I was 1-A and he was 1-Y. He had a letter from his doctor documenting a heart murmer. This did not make him a draft-dodger, merely ineligible. Since he never advocated sending anyone to war, he was not a chicken-hawk. You might want to get a few facts straight before you make accusations against Doctor Dean or anyone else from that generation.

[Gringo]

31. AWOL and "draft-dodging" are two very different things.

Bush signed a contract and he didn't fulfill it. He broke the law. A 100% legal deferment for a health problem is perfectly acceptable. But then, I would respect him just as much, if not more, if he had gone to Canada or been a conscientious objector. That's called sticking up for your principles. Going AWOL/Deserting your duty station to party or whatever is just plain irresponsible and dishonest (and a crime under UCMJ)

To call Dean an draft dodger is a cheap, dishonest smear. His back problem is real (ever notice his lack of a neck?) They wouldn't have let him serve.

Also that you campare an upstanding American like Dean to a lying, murdering piece of filth like Bush is sooo disgusting and insulting to Dean, and to all democrats.

[TLM]

34. It is not the act of not serving in vietnam....

be it due to a valid medical deferment or out and out draft dodging by heading to canada.

The reason so many on the left attack guys like Rush and Bush and Dick for not serving, is that they are such war hawks. The republicans are the ones who make such a big deal out of draft dodging, yet they did not serve but are very pro-war.

It is the hypocrisy of being pro-war as long as you don't have to go.

[TSIAS]

35. Locking

2. The subject line of a discussion thread and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include profanity, excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation. Inflammatory rhetoric should also be avoided.

Thanks,
Taylor
GD Moderator