Why a real Leftie supports Dean - 5 simple reasons.

[fabius]

A supplement to Will's thread below that got kind of big and unwieldy.

I'm a real red leftie. I wasn't very enamored of Clinton for instance. Although Bruce Babbitt was the best Interior Sec'y since Stu Udall. (OK I'm from AZ originally).

Lukewarm on Gore although he promised to be more "green" than Clinton.

Why Dean? (I KNOW he's a moderate at heart OK?)

(1) IRAQ WAR: Kerry, Gep, Edwards and Lieberman lost me on the war. Of all the Senators (pres. candidates) Kerry would be the one I'm most comfortable with BUT... The IWR vote was a clearly Daschle-Gep-political consultant BS position to avoid the issue and move on to more favorable Democratic terrain. Hey, it didn't work. It was stupid. It was wrong.

(2) BEAT BUSH: Kucinich, Sharpton or Braun are the proper true leftie candidates. I'm still tempted by Carol honestly but her campaign's going nowhere, she should get a Cabinet post. I was thinking, (around June) Chimp'll win anyway, I'll support a TRUE Democrat. I gave Dennis money early. Then I saw on the Dean website (July) how many supporters he had and how much money he was raising, and I thought, hmmm, if 2 million people send 100 bucks apiece, that's 200 million dollars! Even a fraction of that gets us in the running. We could WIN! Hey wouldn't that be nice! Kucinich could do that too, but he got in late and didn't have the organization. Kick-ass organization counts.

(3) THE REVOLUTION: Like a lot of "Boomers" I've been waiting for DECADES - Since Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, in fact, for a real LEADER. We had McGovern (my first vote at age 18) but after that we just got the thin gruel of Carter and Clinton, good guys but basically moderate Southern Democrats. I got excited about Jesse Jackson back in the '80's but that wasn't going to happen. Even then, Jesse was the ONLY candidate that "told it like it is". Dean to a great extent tells it like it is.

Why can we build a revolution around a moderate feisty patrician? Well, what was JFK? What was RFK really? What they all have in common with Dean, was that they ask us to participate as citizens. They ask us to unite for the common good. They even ask us to sacrifice. They don't tell us to go shopping. They are not going to solve our problems, WE will. Ok that's good stump speech BS, but so what?

Why does it matter?

(4) MONEY: The most toxic substance in politics today (aside from Tom DeLay)is MONEY. You all know that this is the reason that the government does not serve the people. It has been like this for years. Ever since Nixon got elected in fact. Well, what if the President owes his loyalty to "we the people" instead of "we, Halliburton, Exxon Mobil, and Pfizer"? What a concept. My contention is even if Dean is not a real liberal, he'll damn well listen to his base. If we got him elected we can get him retired. You know that Democrats are not like the "Bush Pioneers"(sounds like a Soviet group, doesn't it?); we won't just salute and sieg heil. If our man betrays us we will ask for his head on a platter.

Money in politics is such a toxic issue to me that I was ready to vote for McCain in 2000, had he made it this far. (Oregon). Would have had to register Repug. Yikes. This brings me to the last point:

(5) BROWNSHIRTS: I have a long-standing argument with my uncle that "this is not your father's Republican Party". It isn't. It's more like Mussolini's Republican Party. Or Stalin's. How do you fight thugs? Not the way Daschle does. Not by standing next to Bush in the Rose Garden like Gep.

You fight them by fighting back. Dean fights. Put up an ad impugning Democrats' patriotism? I'll see you and raise. Dean just raised $600K in a few days to run a counterattack ad. That's what you do. Playground bully call you names? Punch his goddamn lights out. The only way the Republicans will ever be civil or will ever agree to campaign finance reform is if we KICK THE CRAP OUT OF THEM, electorally speaking. With our shoe leather. With our facts. With our votes. With OUR money. Then they will come to the table and be civil. Maybe.

There was a time in American history that there was a reactionary faction that had hijacked the US Congress. This faction had disproportionate influence, and they were totally in the wrong on the most important issue of the day. That issue was slavery. The faction was the Southern aristocracy. There was a definite lack of "civility" - Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner was beaten with a cane by Representative Preston Brooks of South Carolina.

Unfortunately it took a civil war to resolve that one. We need to resist FORCEFULLY before it goes that far. We need to deal with the long-festering wound of that earlier division, the residual poison of slavery.

Dean fights. Dean knows what is right and what isn't. More to the point he SAYS it. This isn't about arcane BS like the "rate of growth of Medicare". This is about the residue of racism. This is about injustice. This is about our democracy.

</rant>

[UnAmericanJoe]

1. Wow

I may not agree precisely with every point, but what a fantastic post!
Well done sir!

Joe

[fabius]

6. Thanks, joe!

:)

[madfloridian]

2. He is about rightness and wrongness.

I think that is what grabbed us first.
He has a clear anger about what is being done to our country and to our reputation in the world.

He wants to help fix it. The message is clear to him. He makes mistakes and blurts out things, but I relate to that. I was always the teacher who made the waves and rocked the boat. I relate to that.

He is not so interested in being true to ideology, as in being focusing on what is wrong and how to best fix it. We like that.

[liberalmuse]

3. Amen to that!

Nothing more to add, other than that was a damn good rant. :D

[liberalcapitalist]

4. word

n/t

[caledesi]

5. Excellent post Fab! nt

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Please Give Some More Consideration To Kerry

I'll just quickly address your points:

1) Iraq War - Kerry was not a Rose Gardener. He fought for Biden-Lugar and DID NOT want to take it off the table before elections. Personally, I didn't agree with the vote, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me. Especially considering that Dean's actual plan of action was almost indistinguishable from Kerry's.

2) Kerry matches very well against Bush. He can take him on for AWOL (Dean can't), and is for exactly the tax cuts Bush argued for (conveniently forgetting that it was a small fraction of the tax cuts) while Dean's "tax hike" is political poison. Kerry has extensive foreign policy/national security experience, as well as a record of fighting special interests.

3) Where Dean is a polarizing centrist, Kerry is a progressive that makes it seem like common sense. He is known as a bridge builder in Congress, and yet he has one of the most liberal records in Congress.

Kerry is a holdover from the JFK belief in public service, and has consistently fought against the secrecy and corruption that have marred our belief in government since Watergate. His platform for public service of overflowing with ideas (like most of his programs).

4) Kerry raised over $20 million even before he decided to opt out. This won't be a problem for him.

5) Check out this ad:

http://mfile.akamai.com/10211/wmv/johnkerry.download.akamai.com/10211/112303_noprez_wmv_dsl.wmv

If that doesn't work, go here and click on "No Mr. President" on the right.

http://www.johnkerry.com/videos/

Kerry has taken on Nixon, taken on Oliver North and Reagan, and he's sure as hell not going to be cowed by Shrub.

"If George Bush wants to make this election about national security, I have three words for him he'll understand: Bring. It. On," said Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/031121/ap/d7uv2j9g0.html

[fabius]

10. Don't get me wrong. I like Kerry.

John Kerry has an excellent record.

If he wins the nomination I'll work for him and contribute just as I would for Dean. He's my third choice after Dean and Kucinich.

Gore would have been great too if he hadn't pulled out.

But Dean's campaign is about us. Not just about consultants, campaign managers, and ad buys. It's about changing our politics.

Kerry didn't quite get it and still doesn't. But if he wins the nomination I'm his man. OK? :)

[fabius]

15. I give Kerry full credit for exposing the illegal war

in Nicaragua and the Iran-Contra scandal.

I'm still flabbergasted that the BFEE got away with that.

I was even more flabbergasted when a BJ rose to a higher level of crime than the Reagan-Bush I shenanigans.

I will cut Kerry and the others some slack. Even I wouldn't have believed the radical-stupidity-venality of the VRWC until the Iraq War. I know the Democrats were taken by surprise. We all were. The last three years is a perpetual :wtf: experience.

I just couldnt' help thinking

"...but what about Osama bin whatsizname?"

and

"doesn't little Kim have real plutonium? forget yellowcake..."

Just didn't make any sense.

[Kazak]

8. You're definitely helping me...

to decide.

[rumguy]

9. real lefties support Clark

because he's a good man who can win...

[fabius]

12. Clark has my Mom's vote hands down

Good looking devil ;)

Really Clark is coming on strong in the last debate.

My favorite Clark quote: "Tom DeLay is an idiot". lol

[rumguy]

13. when did clark say that about delay?

see that's the kind of "lefty" we need!

[wtmusic]

11. On Thanksgiving, I'm thankful we have a candidate like him

because GWB would steamroll over every other one of 'em

[Eloriel]

14. FABULOUS post

Just fabulous. Will you post it to the blog? (Or let me??) Too good to miss.

Eloriel

[fabius]

16. You mean the Dean blog? Feel free.

Thanks Eloriel. :)

[FrenchieCat]

17. The Beat Bush section

Was lacking. Only money was mentioned. I think that whatever money Dean raises, Bush will raise that much more.

Since the BEAT BUSH SECTION is the most important section that you mentioned, and actually the only important one as I count it my bottomline, please expound.....As it is currently incomplete, and since it's the most important IMO, could you please make that one of more substance.....like how, other than money, Dean will beat Bush. Like what does the candidate have to offer to the general population in reference to National security, and homeland security, and taxes that they will really give them a reason to vote for Dean.

Thank you.

[fabius]

24. BEAT BUSH (ELECTABILITY)

if Trippi isn't reading this he should be.

(1) We don't have to have MORE money than Bush, just enough to get our message out. Our message beats their message hands down. But people have to hear it.

(2) We need an instant response mechanism to Republican slime. Dean has it. Who else does?

(3) We need to take the initiative. Dean does. To paraphrase General Grant, when he took over the battered Army of the Potomac in 1864: "Stop worrying about what Lee is going to do. I'm concerned with what I'M going to do."

(4) Issues - national security. Does anybody still think that Bush has made America more secure by invading Iraq? Osama is laughing his ass off. He's got off scot free. Little Kim has a free hand because we punched the Iraqi tar baby and can't get out to do anything else. Homeland security is underfunded because we're sending all that money to Iraq. Army readiness is kaput.

It's as though the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and the Nazis declared war on us, and we went to invade Argentina.

That's the Bush record.

(5) Issues - taxes. Taxes pay for necessary government services. As a people, we need to decide what services are necessary and pay for them. Even freepers will agree that the military and courts are necessary. The rest needs to be discussed openly and honestly. We just need to pay for it. Fiscal conservatism will gain many Independent and some Republican votes.

(6) Issue - trade. Dean was pro-NAFTA a few years ago but is willing to let the facts help him change his mind. I like that. The facts should inform your positions. Not just ideology. And you can change your mind once you know better. We all learn and grow through life. All of us except "W" that is.

[jpgray]

18. I support Dean, but disagree with some of your points

1) Dean's opposition built gradually, in such a way as to leave him pretty ambiguous as to how he would have voted at the time of the IWR. I can't really say how he would have voted, but we can admit he had an opportunity to test the water a little before jumping in. Despite all that, he did oppose it, and did it very cleverly.

2) Dean's campaign is the best out there, no question. Though if all people who said "I like Kucinich" supported him...? :) But I agree with you on this one.

3) All politicians do this, at least the good ones do. If you want to ignore the idealism, in real terms all those heroes you mention failed to *fully* realize their goals, and passed out of history: dead, or persona non grata in the political world.

4) Too early to tell if Dean will be true to his base. More than likely he will listen on some issues and ignore on others, like everyone else.

5) Dean is talking back, not necessarily fighting back. If all you want is words, there are many that rail against Republicans. In real terms, Dean has done very little. The impression that he is fighting is not worth as much to me as some real progress--we will have to wait until he is elected to make a sound judgment on that.

All in all, Dean is an excellent candidate, but I don't feel all your points are yet justified--all we see is the campaigning Dean. I don't say that you are wrong, but I do say that it is too early to tell. What is known of his record in Vermont is pretty ambiguous, and I can't go on what he says alone. Does he speak out more than Daschle and co.? You bet. Does he have personal reasons for speaking out, as Daschle does for clamming up? Who knows? We'll find out, I'm sure.

edit: clarity, don't want to tarnish the memory of MLK or others, who had some great ideas

[fabius]

20. I'm ABB but Dean has the mojo

IN RESPONSE TO YOUR POST,

"1) Dean's opposition built gradually, in such a way as to leave him pretty ambiguous as to how he would have voted at the time of the IWR. I can't really say how he would have voted, but we can admit he had an opportunity to test the water a little before jumping in. Despite all that, he did oppose it, and did it very cleverly."

YES, BUT HE WAS OUT THER BEFORE THE WAR, IF IT HAD BEEN ALL FLOWERS AND SWEETS, HE'D HAVE GONE DOWN IN FLAMES. STICKING HIS NECK OUT.

2) Dean's campaign is the best out there, no question. Though if all people who said "I like Kucinich" supported him...? But I agree with you on this one.

SAME HERE. KUCINICH IN 2012.

3) All politicians do this, at least the good ones do. If you want to ignore the idealism, in real terms all those heroes you mention failed to complete their goals, and passed out of history: dead, or persona non grata in the political world.

THESE REAL HEROES GOT SHOT. NOT EXACTLY THEIR FAULT. WE KNOW THERE'S ALWAYS A RISK FOR SHAKING THINGS UP TOO MUCH.

4) Too early to tell if Dean will be true to his base. More than likely he will listen on some issues and ignore on others, like everyone else.

IF HE ISN'T TRUE HE'LL NEVER WIN RE-ELECTION. EVEN IF HE ISN'T HE'S BETTER THAN BUSH.

5) Dean is talking back, not neessarily fighting back. If all you want is words, there are many that rail against Republicans. In real terms, Dean has done very little. The impression that he is fighting is not worth as much to me as some real progress--we will have to wait until he is elected to make a sound judgment on that.

TALKING IS FIGHTING UNLESS YOU'RE THINKING VIOLENCE WHICH I DON'T ADVOCATE. YOU DON'T BEAT BUSH WITHOUT SOME SEVERELY STRENUOUS TALKING.

All in all, Dean is an excellent candidate, but I don't feel all your points are yet justified--all we see is the campaigning Dean. I don't say that you are wrong, but I do say that it is too early to tell. What is known of his record in Vermont is pretty ambiguous, and I can't go on what he says alone. Does he speak out more than Daschle and co.? You bet. Does he have personal reasons for speaking out, as Daschle does for clamming up? Who knows? We'll find out, I'm sure.

SENATORS AND REPS IN CONGRESS ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE. SURE IT'S EASIER FOR DEAN, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MAKE THOSE TOUGH VOTES.

POLITICAL DISCOURSE IN AMERICA HAS BEEN SO DEGRADED FOR SO LONG THAT I'M EXCITED ABOUT ALL OUR CANDIDATES, TO BE HONEST. I THINK DEAN IS THE ONE THAT JERKED THEM OUT OF THEIR RUTS. REMEMBER THE GORE 2000 LOCKBOX? YAWN.

[jpgray]

21. We agree more often than not, I'm just saying "not sure yet"

But I support Dean--one of the finest candidates we have.

[Eloriel]

30. Actually, Dean's record in VT isn't ambiguous at all

There are a few hatchet jobs out there that have persuaded some people that his record is less than stellar, if not downright catastrophic, but these by NO means represent the sum total or even (IMO) an intellectually honest discussion of his record.

Jeez. Vermonters (mostly pretty liberal folks) kept re-electing him again and again. He couldn't have been THAT bad. Even some of his former opponents in VT are now supporting him.

Eloriel

[jpgray]

33. Well, the records are sealed, and reports vary

It's very hard for me at least to get the definitive outlook on his tenure as Governor--at least he didn't bankrupt his state or pillage the health care system. But down to the specifics I can't really voice an accurate opinion on his record. As you say, the reports vary pretty substantially.

I will say that in broad terms he did a good job. And yes, reelection and the positive testimonials, like the one you posted, are positive signs.

edit: Actually, maintaining a balanced budget, even for a small state, is not just "better than average", it's "good". :)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

19. Beautifully said, fabius

I especially agree about the Revolution. Many things drew me to Dean, but one thing that keeps me with him is his insistence that this is about US, not about HIM.

I went to the Grassroots Summit in SF last weekend, and a few people stood up and asked the campaign honcho (Mike Ford) what the campaign was going to do about organizing precincts, getting out the vote in California, etc. His response was "YOU are going to do it. You are already doing it." I love that. One of the most postive things this campaign has done has been to largely turn the efforts over the volunteers. This is what democracy is all about, and this is what I feel has been missing in the process for a long, long time.

[FrenchieCat]

22. The Revolution?

Give me a break...first things, first.....

You can have your revolution later...right now, we've got to get satan out of power......

Pie in the sky hopes, you'll be left with an empty plate...then what?
regular folks' menu is too crowded for Revolution....Duh!

[fabius]

26. That's why I'm with Dean.

I tell Kucinich supporters,

This country is like a runaway train going full throttle in REVERSE.

First we have to STOP the train.

Then we can go forward.


REgardless of candidate if WE take posession of our campaign and campaign financing (like the Dean campaign) then we the people win.

Not we the corporations. And don't tell me the DLC and Clinton didn't have a little corporate influence.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

29. Exactly...

Rather than hoping for our candidate to make something happen, WE are doing it ourselves. Registering voters. Knocking on doors. Traveling to Iowa in the dead of winter. Hand-writing over 68,000 letters to undecided Dems in early states. Donating millions of dollars, $75 at a time. Making a difference.

Don't think this is revolutionary? Maybe it's not. But it's powerful, and it's working.

Dean may not win the nomination or the presidency, but I will never regret participating in this campaign -- it is simply amazing.

[Eloriel]

31. hahaha

Are you genuinely missing it, or just pretending?

The Revolution is right here and now. Be there, or be square. :-)

Eloriel

[George_Bonanza]

23. Excellent balanced post

I loved the way you acknowledged Dean as a moderate/centrist, because that's what he is. Dean isn't ashamed of being one, which I find refreshing. But it's good to know you're a 100% sure on that.

Anyway, leaving out IWR, Kerry has the better platform. He's not in with the AIPAC, he has a more progressive record, and he has better ties in Washington. I feel that now is not the time for an outsider with a learning curve. The Democratic president will have a whole load of issues on his hands, such as the war and economy. A man like Kerry, who has ties with Teddy Kennedy and has been in the senate for 18 years and has the military credibility for the ages, will quickly learn the ropes and dive into the issues. Dean I feel will take longer, and that may cost lives and jobs.

As for the Dean Revolution, it is certainly noteworthy, but it has already happened. Just because Dean doesn't win doesn't mean it will go away. Dean has raised a good deal of money through donations. People will do that again next time. Candidates will utilize it even better than Dean the next time around.

[Lorien]

25. Amen

about all I have to add to that list is "Charisma"; hard for any candidate to win without it these days, and Dean has it.

[FrenchieCat]

27. Funny,

I don't see it. Where is it?

[fabius]

28. Frenchie, you'll get along with my Mom.

She loves Clark.

He's really got charisma. I gotta hand it to him.

Very cerebral and tough too.

Dean has a different kind. Not JFK. But maybe Harry Truman. Something like that.

[FrenchieCat]

32. Kewl!

[Lorien]

35. Never seen a Dean rally?

Get's his supporters whipped into a frenzy. A reporter even called him a "cultlike" figure.

I don't see it in Dubya either, but to his supporters, he's got the mojo.

I spent two hours at a Clark speech several months prior to his entering the race. I went in expecting to be wowed by the man, but left really disliking him despite his attractive good looks and confident manner. I don't have time to spend telling you exactly why that was-just that it was. But I'll give Clark my all if he wins the nod, regardless of negative feelings I have about his personality.

[Andromeda]

34. Spoken from the heart, fabius...

and very compelling. Good job.

[Polemonium]

36. Excellent post

I've been reading more and more reasons to support Dean, but man you covered it pretty well. Nice one.

[MrPrax]

37. Dean has street sense...

Not a big fan of Dean and certainly wouldn't compare him to Dukasis or McGovern...new breed politician

Hope your right...

And I think most of the lurkers will be surprised when Dean gets the nod, which looks likely...and everyone should stand behind him as Democrats and citizens.

Dean: His confederate flag schtick made points and made the Democrat Race relevent outside of the Democratic circles
Dean: He has an 'exit' policy of sorts
Dean: Leans center and left on topical domestic issues, which is a good position

Democrats that mock any presidential candidate that the Democratic Party puts forward should work on getting Reps and Senators elected in their States and work for a 'straight flush' instead of lamenting about not getting a 'royal flush'

ABB...and hold your noses!!!!