NYT makes Clark look like an insensitive smuck

[dkf]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/27/politics/campaigns/27DEAN.html

They put Clark's "skiing" comments after a moving account of the repatriation of Charlie Dean's remains.

Good one Clark.

[dkf]

1. AP does it too.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20031127_538.html

[KittyWampus]

5. The REPORTER Asked Clark A Question About Skiing

There is already an article on the front page of GD about this comment.

Why are you starting another?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=782798&mesg_id=782798

Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio
interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski
competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor
did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering
from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK
radio.

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. That is "an attack"?

Geeze, if that is an attack, then I guess what we can expect from Bush is Nuclear Armaggedon. Did Clark say Dean did anything wrong? Did Clark lie or distrot the facts of the matter in any way whatsoever? Did Clark bring up the matter in the first place? No, no, no. Did deftly contrast his personal experience with Dean's? Yes.

Almost everyone agrees that for the coming election it is a plus in the eyes of much of the General public for a candidate to be able to say that he or she has had military experience. For some people it doesn't matter, and for a relatively small number of people it is a minus. Overall, for more voters than not, it is an advantage. Every candidate has relative strengths and weaknesses, and they all play up their strengths. Dean is very quick to point out that he has had executive experience as a Gov. relative to the Congressionally situated candidates. He alos points out his experience in State government in contrast to Clark not having held any elective office. Those are facts. Dean is not reluctant to remind voters of them. It is fair politics.

Dean also goes out of his way to remind voters that Clark has voted for Republicans in the past. Many feel that is a legitimate point to stress. But is it really? Voting is a "sacred" right and responsibility. We have the secret ballot for good reasons. Voting is highly a personal choice. There are always instances of politicians voting across party lines in the secrecy of the polling booth, and Clark was an Independent at the time, not a proclaimed Democrat. Would you really want to turn back to clock 12 years and praise some of todays turn coat Southern Democrats who are now mainstream conservative Republicans for having been Democrats at that time? It is irrelevent, they have become Republicans in the interrum. Clark has become a Democrat. Still Dean keeps bringing it up. Is it "fair", is it "relevent"? Yes, personally, I think it is fair and relevent, and I say that as a Clark backer. Clark has to deal with the facts of his personal history, since Republicans undoubtably will try to use them agaisnt him.

The same is true for Dean, and whatever real or perceived "baggage" he may be carrying. He simply has to deal with it. Clark made no attack, but Bush's people would. A case can be made that Clark was reminding voters that Dean may be vulnerable on that point. A case can be made that Dean reminds voters of the points that Clark may be vulnerable on. People get real, they are running AGAINST each other , not FOR each other at this stage in the political season. Dean has never been shy about pointing out any potential weaknesses of his Democratic opponents. Dean was skiing while Clark was recuperating. Those are facts. I think Dean is a big boy, he understands that. There was no slur thrown at Dean. I think Dean is a smart enough politician and a strong enough candidate to overcome what will definately be perceived as a liability by many. Everyone has liabilities, rarely are any fatal, but pretending they don't exist is just plain stupid.

[Eloriel]

2. It really was a classless remark

And it surprised me for that very reason.

Eloriel

[AmericanDem]

4. classless on who's part?

[AmericanDem]

7. If you are talking about Clark as...

classless, you better understand something. This bothered him as many many voters are bothered by this. This is a fact. I am one of them.

Her you have Dean, getting out of service to his country because he has a doctors excuse and xray. He then is soo good over night that he take nearly 1 year to go skiing. Of course he was able to do this, he lived a life of privilege. All this going on while guys like Clark and Kerry were being shot and shot at.

This has been rehashed over and over. If you think it should jus go away because its a negative on the candidate you support remember that there are many voters that have a very hard time with. It stinks to high hell.

[AmericanDem]

3. of course

here is that piece from the article,


Dr. Dean, who flew 11 hours to get here after a presidential debate in Des Moines, and left about noon on Wednesday to fly to New York for Thanksgiving, praised the men and women who did the digging. He stood with one hand in his pocket, and the jacket of his suit fell open to show the black leather belt he wears nearly every day. It was Charlie's.

Clark Attacks Dean

MANCHESTER, N.H., Nov. 26 (AP) — Gen. Wesley K. Clark attacked Dr. Dean for skiing after receiving a medical draft deferment for a back condition in the Vietnam War. "I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did," General Clark said on a radio program. "He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam."

General Clark, an Army infantry officer and company commander in Vietnam, received the Purple Heart after he was wounded in combat. He was also awarded the Silver Star for gallantry in action.

The Dean campaign condemned General Clark for making the comment while Dr. Dean was in Hawaii for the return of the remains of a person believed to be his brother.


1 article flowing seemlessly into the other.

[gulliver]

6. I don't like Clark's remark, but ...

... I also don't like Dean repeatedly and disingenuously including Clark when Dean attacks "war supporters." Maybe this is Clark's way of firing a shot across Dean's bow.

Dean better come up with an answer to the "skiing the moguls while on military deferment for a bad back" charge. Dean already looks DOA on the national security issue, but the skiing business now means that he can't even draw even for military service with AWOL-boy.

[dsc]

9. Yes or no

Did Clark tell congressional candidate Sweet to vote for the IWR? If he did, then didn't he support the war?

[gulliver]

13. I like Clark's answer on that better than Dean's on the skiing.

Swett is a staunch Lieberman supporter. Maybe she is misconstruing Clark's words to her in the light of Lieberman's politics.

[dsc]

15. Ah the she is a liar defense

then why didn't he resign from her campaign when she spoke in favor of the IWR? Funny, how everyone is a liar but Clark on this.

[AmericanDem]

10. how about this is the way..

Clark and perhaps Kerry feel. Politics aside, this may truly bother them. A guy like Dean, living a privileged life getting outa service, then going skiing while they are figghting for there lives.

Is that awake up call or what?

[gulliver]

20. Well that's the way I feel too.

Unless Dean comes up with something to defend his service record, it looks exactly as you describe.

Even so, Clark attacking Dean seems out of character. It is offensive to the reflexively anti-military, and seems likely to rile them up.

But perhaps you are right and I am being overly squeamish. I do think Dean's inability to deliver the national security issue to the Dems is fatal, and the skiing thing ices it. Dean needs to come up with something there. He looked "stricken" when confronted with this in Des Moines.

[KittyWampus]

11. Do You Know The Remarks Context? Clark Was Asked A Question About Skiing..

Note that the word "slap" is the term used by the person writing the article.

Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio
interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski
competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor
did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering
from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK
radio.

[w4rma]

18. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[Duder]

8. Bad timing and...

...bad politics by Clark.

[KittyWampus]

16. Hands Off Dean-They Found His Brothers Remains

:eyes:

[RichM]

12. It isn't the NYT "making" Clark look insensitive. It's Clark himself.

I wonder what Clark would say today if asked directly about the Vietnam War. He supports the War on Terrorism; he gives speeches at the US terrorist school in Georgia praising all the graduates (who then go on to murder civilians on behalf of rightwing governments in Latin America). At Monday's debate he spoke of changing US military strategy to "beat down the insurgency" in Iraq. And here he says,

"He (Dean) was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam."

He probably thinks the US role in Vietnam was very heroic. Anyone who thinks of the US role in Vietnam as heroic is not fit for high office.

[jonnyblitz]

17. whoa......... he praises SOA graduates??

yikes!

[Creideiki]

14. This is such a non-issue for me

I want to know what health care plans are. I want to know about education policy, especially leaving NCLB behind. I want to know environmental policy. I really couldn't care less about this.

[TahitiNut]

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