Clark's clever attack

[quinnox]

I was impressed by Clark's attack on Dean's skiing record. It was said in a joking way, but the point got through. This shows me something. Clark wants to win, and is willing to go after opponents when it is to his advantage. As the Dean spokeswoman said, it was ruthless. Let's face it, to be a winner in politics requires a certain ruthlessness from time to time. A killer instinct. I still don't have Clark in my top three, but he is impressing me more recently.

[onebigbadwulf]

1. what attack

[KittyWampus]

9. In Response To A Reporters Query About Skiing

"Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski
competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering
from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK radio."

[Journeyman]

16. This sounds like a setup by the Clark team. . .

After all, how many times has a reporter proposed competitive ski-offs between candidates?

[Donna Zen]

22. They do it all the time!

Reporters want to start a fight...especially between Dems. That is all the debates have become.

[KittyWampus]

23. Yeah, Reporters Never Ask Loaded Questions

:eyes:

[Journeyman]

64. And politicians never stage manage appearances. . .

'scuse me while I adjust these blinders and sink further into my naivete.

[KittyWampus]

72. It Was A Radio Interview

[MidwestTransplant]

2. What did he say?

[quinnox]

4. He said while he was fighting in Vietnam

Dean was skiing, so he doesn't have much practice on the slopes like Dean has.

[oasis]

90. ouch!!!!

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. I put the link and quotes in another thread

"Is Media Coverage of Clark "Fair and Balenced". The context of the remarks is important

[AmericanDem]

19. Tom check your email

hurry LOL

[CityZen-X]

12. Sonny Slalom?

Maybe he said do we want a leader for our country who taught Sonny Bono how to slalom?

Sorry about the humor, but me could not resist! My mind is a terrible thang.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

[rucky]

3. Yeah... All great jokes end with,

"I was being carried off in a stretcher"

Hilarious.
:eyes:

Now he can't use that line ever again (against *) without being accused of playing a card.

[Clark Can WIN]

5. The fact that Dean himself said that he

"probably could have gone" didn't help him much.

[dkf]

27. Dean was diagnosed in High School with Spondylolysis.

He went to the doctor BECAUSE HE WAS HAVING PROBLEMS WHILE RUNNING TRACK!

The man to this day doesn't go jogging.

Can you imagine him going through the rigors of basic training? Or in Vietnam trying to lug around 50 pounds of equipment? Would you like to have to count on a guy whose back is going to cause him constant pain to protect your flank? There are reasons the military has these rules and if you tried to do your part and educate people on the truth, Howard Dean would be OK.

I did quite a bit of research on this topic and to this day, Spondylolysis is still a reason to reject an enlistee.

I told this to my ex-marine brother-in-law and once I explained it he understood completely.

Too bad people like you want to use it to bring Gov. Dean down.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

82. Dean will bring himself down, he needs no help

he said: "I probably coud have gone". Perhaps his spondylolysis was not so debilitating? Going skiing seems to support that view.

[TLM]

45. He probably could have gone... IF he lied about his condition.

You leave that part out to prop up your republican style attack on draft dodging. Are you saying Dea should have lied to the draft board and hidden his condition... thus putting himself and his fellow troops in danger in combat situations?

You should change your name to "Clark Can't Hide He's A Republican."

[KittyWampus]

52. Dean Himself Said He Could Have Gone

Was he making that up?

[TLM]

57. IF HE LIED ABOUT HIS CONDITION!

Why not post that whole quote, and the question asked? Because the questioner asked Dea if he could have hidden his condition... Dean said he supposed he could have.

So basicaly you're attacking Dean for not lying to the draft board to get into vietnam by hiding his back condition.

[Myra]

85. Would you happen to have a source/link for that Dean quote?

I'd like to see his words in context.
Thanks.

(Frankly though I don't care if a candidate
went to Vietnam. And for the purposes of
this discussion forum; they're gonna get
criticized either whether they went or not.)

[wtmusic]

7. And Clark was initiating WW3 while Dean was

providing health care to kids in Vermont...

It goes both ways.

[Pastiche423]

34. A most excellent response!

I have upmost respect for healers.

I am so fucking sick of violence and those that cheerlead it.

[TLM]

44. Exactly... while these hawks were murdering people in illegal wars

Dean was saving lives. I think it is infinitely more heroic to save a life than to take one. Any dipshit can pull a trigger and pump a bullet into some VC kid. It takes a real hero to take a bullet out of a kid and save his life as Dean was doing at an ER in the Bronx.

Why the fuck is murdering people in an illegal war some kind of a prerequisite for being president? It makes me sick to see so many so called democrats attacking Dean for not serving in an illegal war.

What gets me is that as their supporters cry about how unfair it is for Dean to call them Bush-light... yet these guys run around mouthing repuke attacks on dems for draft dodging. If they don’t want to be labeled Bush light, they should stop acting like republicans.

Clark is a republican war hawk and he could only keep his true nature hidden for so long before he slipped and let us see the real Clark.

[KittyWampus]

59. Why Won't Dean Cut The Pentagon Budget

Clark is further Left than Dean... only candidate further to Left is Kucinich

Dean Is The One Who Is Closer To Being Bush Lite

Just look at his record and positions as Goverenor:

AA should be about Class not race
Rejecting official recognition of Indian Tribe
Against Right of patients to sue HMO's

Why won't Dean cut the Pentagon Budget?

Clark has said quite clearly, Republicans prefer weapons systems to people...

Guess Dean agrees with the Republicans.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

77. Thanks for that post

If it were not for you and others defending Dean, I'd never know about the distortions.

Click Here To Find NO MICHAEL JACKSON Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[dkf]

8. You call that clever and ruthless?

I call that shameful and crass.

To do that on the same day Charlie Dean's body comes back is BEYOND THE PALE.

Yes, I will write this in every darn thread possible.

The Dean family has suffered enough because of the senseless Vietnam war. Charlie Dean was held in a POW camp for 3 months and then murdered, probably by the North Vietnamese.

Clark is insensitive beyond everything.

[KittyWampus]

11. Hands Off Dean Just Cause They Found His Brothers Remains?

So when will it be okay for canidates to hold Dean accountable again?

Also, Clark was responding to a question about skiing.

"Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski
competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering
from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK radio."

[wtmusic]

14. Accountable my rear end

Dean has nothing to be accountable for.

Did I miss something?

[KittyWampus]

21. It's Dean's Own Karma He Choose Not To Go

He said himself he could have gone.

He choose not to.

Now his capacity to hold JUNIOR accountable is severly hampered.

Dean can't beat Junior with the AWOL stick- Dean choose to take the exemption
Dean can't confront Junior's reliance on Staff for Foreign Policy- Dean himself would have to rely on staff
Dean can't bring up Junior's sealed records- Dean has sealed his own records from Vermont

[Beaker]

31. Dean didn't "choose" to take the exemption-

that's how he was classified by the Army.
With his medical background, he would not have been accepted even as a volunteer.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. Maybe, maybe if Clark has issued a Press Release

of his own initiative bringing up and comparing Clark's and Dean's experiences during the Viet Nam War, timing the release of a Press Release for the day of the return of Dean's brother, then I would agree to your point. This "gotcha" nonsense has got to stop. There was no calculated assault. There wasn't even an assault, calculated or not. Please read Clark's quote in the context of a live interview where the questioner asked a very specific "humerous" question.

Look, if there is any disrespect going on, I tend to see it in any crass attempts to use a private family tragedy and moment of sadness as suitable grist for a political attack on Clark. That seems crass to me. I have a hard time believing that Dean would find Clark's brief comments terribly and personally offensive. It wasn't the Clark camnpaign that injected Dean's dead brother into public debate in a political context. Who is ccrossing what line here? Please read the thread I started on media coverage of Clark and let me know what you think.

[AmericanDem]

28. I call it FACT!

and sadly some people have a hard time dealing with FACTS!

[fujiyama]

92. Insensitive?

This primary season has been nasty and ruthless for a while now (though I'd say it's no worse than previous elections). Clark was simply distinguishing himself.

I've heard Dean make other accusations against Clark -- that he's just a republican, etc etc.

Politics is not for the faint of heart, and everybody has tried to trash the other. Kerry even tried painting Clark as out of touch with field combat.

It really is sort of ridiculous.

[pinkpops]

10. I don't know what this is about

probably VietNam? So long as one is not hypocritical - that is pro-war but anti-ME-have-to-go a.k.a. chickenhawk, I dont see that it should matter. (I am leaning toward Clark but do not fault Dean)

[wtmusic]

13. Bravo, a dose of reality

:thumbsup:

[JohnKleeb]

15. As long as Dean aint a hawk I am totally cool with the fact Dean didnt

serve. BTW my candiate didnt serve due to a heart condition very simliar to what I have, btw is this deja vu for those who remember Clinton and all.

[Cocoa]

17. it means he'll use Bush's AWOL too

he's already made it clear he's not afraid to talk about Bush's drinking days. :-)

[quinnox]

29. That's a good point

Clark just might do that.

[maddezmom]

18. it was discussed here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=782798&mesg_id=782798

and another thread this am.

I don't see it as Clark attack, but I also don't feel Dean did anything wrong in his deferment.

[Jerseycoa]

32. On both counts

Right!

[Donna Zen]

20. Interesting take:

A reporter asked a stupid but leading question during point in an interview that had turned to levity. The question: would Clark challenge Dean to a skiiing competition, was Clark's to respond to. What would you have said at this point?

A) No thanks, I'm sure Dean is better than I am.

B) Bring 'em on.

C) Well Gov. Dean got in a lot more practice time while I was recovering from wounds sustained in Vietnam.

Clark chose (C)

Left out from a past thread on DU about this statement was the final part of Clark's statement when he added that "it didn't matter."

ps. Watching this campaign, I have begun to temper all of my judgements with the reflection of how it would be to "walk in someone elses shoes." Answering questions all day every day is something that would make me begin to scream. Mean while on the Baghdad ranch, no one asks the asshole much of anything. And beyond that, no matter how stupid * appears, the media cares not.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

24. I didn't think it was a big deal

Dean is my top choice, but we should all expect that he's going to catch some shit over this. Better that it comes out now than later. As all of his critics have said all along, this is going to be an issue for him. It's time to see how it really plays out for him, and if it causes trouble for him, well, it's better that it comes up now than ten months from now.

Besides, Clark's statement was true, and politics is not for the fainthearted. This was fair play.

I'm sure Dean will get through it anyway like he has gotten through everything else. I just don't see what the big deal is, myself. If Clark was going out of his way to prevent Charlie Dean's remains from getting buried at Arlington that would be a little different,.

[gulliver]

26. I'm starting to come around.

I thought it was trouble at first, but I am starting to see that it has its positive side.

Good post!

[maggrwaggr]

30. yawn. more pointless bickering .....

I'm glad y'all don't have better things to do with your time

[HereSince1628]

33. Is Vietnam service/draft dodging really an issue?

Do democrats under the age of 45 really care? For them Vietnam is history, mostly a collection of stories of older brothers, fathers, uncles, for fewer its a grave, a relative with a prosthetic.

For the generation from which the nation harvested soldiers to serve in Vietnam (those from 51 to early 60-ish) they were pretty split on the war, many served, many protested. Talking to these folks, most are at least disgusted they were lied to by McNamara and company, but I don't detect polarity about serving vs. dodging. Even back then people didn't boycott the Jets games because their quaterback had knees that were good enough for football but not good enough for the draft.

Then there are those who faced the draft between Korea and Vietnam, these folks are moving into their 70's. The draft they faced had all kinds of potential exemptions (I had a teaching partner who claimed that he got married, had a kid, and was consequently exempt in the late '50s early 60's). In my limited personal experience, dodging doesn't seem like an issue there either.

Unequal treatment is important in the liberal mindset, if special treatment is revealled about some candidate it could be an issue that sticks. But people I interact with are beyond whether or not someone served during Vietnam. Of course, for those that did serve it's something that they can add to their resume.

As for playing service as a card, I don't think it's got the power of trump anymore. To win the nomination the candidate is going to need a good hand, not any one card.

[drfemoe]

37. It's probably more important to rwers

one of my religious rw relatives mentioned something this week about "Clinton being a draft dodger". Just a few days ago I read something about that scenario on the freeper board from a link someone posted here at DU.

I had/have completely forgotten anything and everything about Clinton's service record. Even though I just read it a few days ago (freeper perspective), I still couldn't respond to her with anything other than, "he wasn't a dodger ... he just didn't show up" .. who knows. If it was important to me I would read up on it, etc. .. but, you know, so many words, so little time. What did interest me, is how and why she knows this.

So, I think this kind of thing plays more to the freeper crowd than thinking progressives. Gives them more reasons to hate and scorn us.

From my personal experience with vn vets, and other men of that generation who didn't serve, I can tell you I prefer the latter. I don't have any disrespect for vets. Most of them will tell you themselves that the war messed with their heads. That was and is one of my Major oppositions to the current war horror. Gulf War I is still claiming victims from our nation's military population.

If Clark or Kerry can steal some repup votes in the democratic primaries, more power. From my perspective, everything else being equal (and I'm not implying that it is), I would choose the man who did not go to the vn war. Maybe that part of the stigma of vn still remains, at least for me.

[fujiyama]

91. RWers are stupid hypocrites

Most likely we won't be able to get their votes, regardless of who we put up. Remember these idiots voted for the AWOL chimp OVER a POW at the Hanoi Hilton.

However there are many independants that RESPECT military service. I respect military service and I think it gives the candidate a different perspective on things (or atleast it should). That's the reason Kerry's vote on the war made so little sense. Of all the people, he should have known better, since he is so personally familiar with the horrors of war.

As for Dean skipping out on war, I don't really care. If it came down between the AWOL chimp and him, I'd still vote for Dean of course as would most democrats. RWers and repukes would still vote for * regardless.

I don't think this is as big an issue as people claim it is. Clinton beat TWO WWII vets (both Bush Sr. and Dole served in WWII). Sure enough they both tried to make his draft dodging an issue but it never really stuck.

If you ask me, Dean has plenty of other problems, so this is really the least of his problems.

[Skidmore]

35. For pete's sake, people, don't we have better things

to discuss? LIke maybe get out the vote stuff?

[AmericanDem]

38. These are Facts

I have seen many here don't like facts when they impact negatively on issues concerning the candidate they support.

I whole heartly agree with what you are saying. We should focus alot on getting folks registered. I myself have tried to post here getting folks together to get as many people registered as possible. There are more of us as opposed to more of them in OUR White House. Ask yourself, "What more can I do to get as many people registered as possible".

Our preference for candidates aside, We need to get as many regular, average, everday folks like you and I out there to vote.Lets do what we can.

Happy Thankgiving!

[Zynx]

36. The fact he said it when Dean was observing Charlie's homecoming was crass

The fact he said it at all was not appropriate to begin with. I like Clark, but this was not a wise move on his part.

[FrenchieCat]

76. Pluuuueeeaaaase.....

The brother thing is really pretty orchestrated. It's almost like "Don't say anything about the President during Wartime"...

Now it's "Dont's say anything about Dean while they try to identify his brother's remains"....

Same ploy, different lines....

How is it that some can be so smart, but only when it's in their favor.

What happened to Dean's brother happened years and years ago. The family has grieved since then. Now they find remains "that may" belong to his brother in a stroke of really really good timing...although they have not yet even positively identified those remains????.

and everybody's got to shut up?

My goodness, what is this country coming to?

Gee Clark's father died when he was 4......so let's not talk about Clark.........

Sheech....is this what they call political correctness or what?

I ain't playing that game....SORRY!

[October]

39. I think it was low -- and quite beneath the general

Haven't decided on a candidate...

[Eloriel]

40. Thanks for your post, quinnox

It demonstrates -- clearly and unambiguously -- what I find appalling about both Clark and so many of his supporters.

As the Dean spokeswoman said, it was ruthless. Let's face it, to be a winner in politics requires a certain ruthlessness from time to time. A killer instinct.

Not the most principled attitude, nor one most Americans could appreciate or identify with. Most of us dislike bullies and thugs and people with a "killer instinct." We think that's only appropriate in self-defense or war, and maybe not even then, and are SURE it has no place in politics. Of course, there are many politicians who disagree. As a rule, they call themselves Republicans -- except, of course, it's politically advantageous to pretend to be Democrats. That killer instinct, all's fair in love and war thing, you know.

It was at best a tasteless remark on Clark's part. He could've left it with saying, "Dean has had more experience at that than I" -- the point would've still been well made. But as you point out, unwittingly perhaps, he went for the jugular. Joke? Hardly, that was mere camouflage for an ugly and unwarranted attack.

I frankly wish more people would've heard it, or heard about it. I think it would do Clark a lot of damage. Americans, almost above all, value fair play. That was just down and dirty.

It's so telling you approve so wholeheartedly and without reservation.

Eloriel

[quinnox]

42. Well, nice to see

you are so full of cheer on this thanksgiving day!

Hey, it's just my take on it! No need to take everything said about your candidate so personally.

[TLM]

48. He could have said it about any of the candidates who didn;t serve in nam.

Gephardt, Kucinich, Lieberman, CMB or Sharpton.

The point is that both Kerry and Clark have been using the standard repuke attack meme about draft dodging ON DEMOCRATS.

That's disgusting.

[DemExpat]

63. What is so telling is the hypocrisy.....

if we were all talking about a Repub's dodging of military service the consensus to attack him would be 98% here at DU.

And we all know how wonderful, tolerant, and gracious all DUers are about other parties, people, point of views....

DemEx

[Pastiche423]

69. Dean did not dodge the draft

ergo, no hypocrisy and your point is meaningless.

[TLM]

70. It is not the act of not serving in vietnam that DUers attack repukes for

...it is that act of avoiding service AND also being a war hawk.

The idea of being pro-war just as long as you don't have to go, is was gets that 98% consensus of attack on DU. To be a hawk when it is other people's ass on the line, but when it is your turn to serve, running away, then later when the coast is clear, being a war hawk again.

Dean is no chickenhawk.

[TLM]

41. What hypocrisy... one day the Clark supporters say how great it is...

that Clark is taking the "high road" and not mud slinging.

Then when Clark starts spewing the standard "draft dodger" attack that republicans always use on democrats, suddenly Clark is so clever and witty with his mud slinging and mouthing of repuke attack memes.


To see so called democrats using the "draft dodger" attack on other dems is disgusting and extremely hypocritical considering how they keep trying to hitch their campaigns to Clinton and compare their policies to Clinton's.

I wonder if Clark would call Clinton a draft dodger too?

It was only a matter of time before CLark let his true republican war hawk colors show through his thin veneer of liberalism.

[maddezmom]

46. please don't paint all Clark supporters with the same brush

I've said before I have no problem with Dean and all this hoopla. It's not an issue for me and I've never mentioned anything about dodging. He didn't. And even if he did, can't say I'd have a problem with it.

so again I say, all people that support Clark are not Anti-Dean.

[TLM]

49. But do you think this was a cheap shot from Clark?

Would you admit Clark is not taking the high road?

My point was more about his supporters than Clark himself... CLark seems to get a pass on doing things that Clark supporters attack other dems for doing.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. Hmmmm

And Dean does'nt get a pass from you when he attacks other Dems? Riiight... :eyes:

[TLM]

60. When Dean attacked other Dems....

He attacked them for bending over for Bush, not standing up to the right wingers, and for supporting the no child left behind act, the IWR etc.

Dean wasn't attacking them with right wing talking points... he was attacking them for being too far to the right. I do not have a problem with that, no.

I do have a problem with so called dems attacking other dems for not serving in nam or for wanting to repeal Bush tax cuts or for being against the war in Iraq.

See the difference?

[maddezmom]

55. cheap shot?

hmmm, I think all camps have their fair share.

As for taking the high road, I guess it's all in perception.

I'm not speaking for any other dem or Clark supporter...just me.

[TLM]

62. Yeah it was a cheap shot...

Dean's brother's body in on a jet back to the US after being lost in some laos shithole for 30 years... and Clark can't help but jump in and fire off a cheap shot about draft dodging.

It would be offensive if Clark said that shit on any day, but to do it on that day of all days is just disgusting.

Like I said... a right wing hawk like Clark can't keep his true colors hidden for long. This kind of crap was bound to shine though his facade of liberalism sooner or later because changing the letter by your name doesn't change who you are.

And Clark is a republican war hawk, who hates demmocrats and hates draft dodgers.

[maddezmom]

75. I understand

just don't happen to agree with you.

[Eloriel]

94. It makes him look mean and petty

and it doesn't help at all that what Clark implies (that he was a draft dodger) is untrue to boot.

I'll say it again: I wish many, many more people had heard it. I can assure you, it's NOT a winning mesage -- er, "joke."

Eloriel

[jonnyblitz]

61. exactly.now I don't like Clark that much anymore.

People who use their military background as proof of superiority over somebody who didnt serve is typical right wing crap. :puke:

[PSU84]

43. Electoral Math: Why Dean Can't Win

The electoral match is pretty bleak for any Democrat - and worse in
2004 than in 2000 because the results of the 2000 census moved
several votes from the Northeast and Midwest to the South and the
West. Nevertheless, there would be significantly fewer states "in
play" with Dean as the Democratic candidate than there would be if
Clark were the nominee. By my count, Bush starts off with 129
electoral votes from states that are "reliably red" and is likely to
win another 108 electoral votes from states that "lean red". That
adds up to 237 electoral votes. Either Dean or Clark (or Kerry or
Gephardt) is likely to start off with 76 electoral votes from states
that are "basically blue." There are another 125 electoral votes in
states that tend to "lean blue." That adds up to 196 electoral votes
that might reasonably to be expected to go to a Democrat if he or she
runs a strong campaign and Bush is still fighting a hopeless war in
Iraq. That leaves only 100 electoral votes that are pretty much "up
for grabs":

Illinois 21
Michigan 17
Missouri 11
Ohio 20
Penna. 21
Wisconsin 10

I think MO is really only in play for Gephardt or Clark. So, that
leads to this scenario:

Dean is sure to lose:

Alabama 9
Alaska 3
Arizona 10
Arkansas 6
Colorado 9
Florida 27
Georgia 15
Idaho 4
Indiana 11
Kansas 6
Kentucky 8
Louisiana 9
Mississippi 6
Missouri 11
Montana 3
Nebraska 5
New Hampshire 4
North Carolina 15
North Dakota 3
Oklahoma 7
South Carolina 8
South Dakota 3
Tennessee 11
Texas 34
Utah 5
Virginia 13
Wyoming 3

Total 248
Need to win 270

And so, Bush wins if he carries any 2 of the states that are up for
grabs. But, if Clark is the nominee, the following states are likely
to go from likely wins for Bush back into the "up for grabs" column:

Arizona 10
Arkansas 6
Colorado 9
Florida 27
Kentucky 8
Louisiana 9
Missouri 11
North Carolina 15
Tennessee 11
Virginia 13

Total 119

Clark puts at least two western states, two border states, and
possibly as many as six southern states in play, while Dean has a
realistic chance of turning no more than two of these states - CO and
maybe MO over to the blue column. In other words, Dean starts off
with at most 201 electoral votes to Bush's 248 with only 89 seriously
in play for both of them. Clark would not lose any state that Dean
would win, giving him tha same 201 electoral votes leaning his way
and as many as 208 more in play. Dean starts at such a huge
electoral disadvantage relative to Bush that he MUST win Pennsylvania
AND Illinois AND Ohio AND either Wisconsin or Michigan, or he must
win Wisconsin AND Michigan AND Illinois AND Pennsylvania.

Dean simply cannot win. Clark can.

[TLM]

56. LOL! Talk about a fantasy world...

Dean will put CO, AZ, MO, NH, TN, KY, NC, AR and Fl into play on his gun stance and NRA rating alone. His stance on states rights will win him support all throught he mid-west. By putting those states in play and forcing Bush to dump time, energy, and money into them, thet assures victories in strong dems states.

One simply has to look at how well Dean is polling with indi voters to get a feeel how well he'll do in the mid-west.

Your only criteria for "Dean is sure to lose" is that you want him to lose.

I wish I could say I was surprised to see another Clark bot with a postign number in the single digits, posting the same damn memes word for word that have already been posted by other clark bots.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

83. As expected, can't refute the point made...

so make personal attacks.

You do realize that those of us who post or lurk on more than one blog or message board know this crap is being posted almost word for word all over the place the last two days by Clark Corps?

Do you think we're too stupid to catch on? Do you think we'll all just assume that 20 different folks on different boards all posted the exact same crap meme on the same day by chance?

The fact is that the two main issues in most of those states listed are gun rights and privacy rights... on both issues Dean is miles ahead of Mr. Wesley "Lobbyist for Axciom" Clark. I also note you cut out the part about how Dean is polling with indi voters.

[mikehiggins]

95. Oh wait! Dean is good because he has a good NRA rating?

How very progressive of you to point that out.

It is really weird how seriously the supporters of the "front runner" feel compelled to concentrate on one of his opponents.

Perhaps the real "meme" (God, how I wish that word had never been coined) at work here is that Clark is as much of an "outsider" as Dean is and undercuts the good doctor's reputed position as the only candidate who opposed the Iraq war (sorry, Dennis, you don't count) and didn't vote for the $87 billion (since he couldn't)

And for a faction that claims bragging points for their ability to bring "new" people into the party, the Deanites seem unhappy to see any "new" people show up on DU, unless, of course, they are here to sing the praises of their candidate.

Why don't you people stifle the anti-Clark rhetoric and go out and register some voters or something? Something constructive that might possibly help the eventual Democratic candidate prevail against our own Axis of Evil.

[paulk]

47. Clark is shooting to differentiate himself from Dean

... and he got him with both barrels.

This "dodged the draft and went skiing" thing is going to stick to Dean like "inventing the internet" stuck to Gore.

[Pastiche423]

53. Just like

Clinton was a draft dodger?

:eyes:

[paulk]

74. another clever reply

These are different times, and Dean will need more than cleverness to spin this. Got out of the draft and went skiing isn't going to play well in Peoria.

[Pastiche423]

78. Not clever at all

Just the truth. Clinton objected to the VN war and did not serve. AND served two presidential terms.

Dean was turned down for the draft and did not serve.

Your view may go over better on a different type of board.

[paulk]

89. if you are politically naive enough to think this issue won't resonate

post 9/11, then nothing anyone can say will make a difference.

My view may not be popular here in DU neverneverland, but I guarantee
it will in the general election. Dean will be smeared as an anti-war, draft dodging ski-bum over and over and over and over.

And those middle of the road types who decide elections will buy it.

[Pastiche423]

93. In the general election

I would love it if the draft question came up.

Do you honestly think that whistle ass' AWOL and desertion would not follow?

No, you are the naive one.

[nofurylike]

68. yes, both can be so cleverly twisted. n/t

[Character Assassin]

50. Welcome to the Township of Non-Issue. Population: Clark's Comments

Using someone else's skiing record as a springboard to talk about Vietnam is hardly what I'd call 'impressive'.

[Patriot_Spear]

54. It was low, whichever way you slice it...

Quit doing Karl Rove's work for him.

[slinkerwink]

58. Clark is no longer my number 2 choice

His cheap shot on the same day that Dean attended the retrieval of Charlie's remains has forever put Clark off my list. Now for me, it's Edwards or Braun.




It's abhorrent how Clark would make that remark on this sad day....

[Tom Rinaldo]

67. Here is the text of my one and only post to a Dean Blog

Most of it was written fresh for that post, some parts are recyled from a post a made on DU:

This is my first post to a Dean blog and I would not be making it if I did not feel very strongly about the subject I am addressing. I will state out front, Dean is not my first choice for the nomination, he is my second choice for the nomination. I will be glad to actively cmapingn for Howard Dean if he wins the nomination, and I will campaign hard.

Today is the first time that I saw something officially come out of Deans campaign that I personally found highly disturbing and even offensive. First I will state that I am backing Wesley Clark for President. I have been very careful in all my comments of Clark's blogs and in more public forums (Democratic Underground in particular) not to make any cheap attacks on Howard. To the contrary I have defended him on occaissions.

I also understand that Clark and Dean are running AGAINST each other at this stage, and that each man has to accent the reasons why voters should choose one over the other. Sometimes those are positive reasons; stances on issues, personal attributes and experiences, ability to appeal to a base of voters or whatever. Sometimes those are negative reasons; such as pointing out when one or the other lacks experience in an area (such as holding elected office for example), or pointing out where one or the other might be vulnerable to attacks that might damage their ability to defeat Bush (such as formerly having praised key Republicans for example). I get that. Each has to show why overall they are the better choice.

Here's my beef. It was my opinion that the media has attempted to drive wedges between supporters of various Democratic candidates by thrusting inflamatory reporting in our faces to create divisions between us completely out of context or proportion to any reality. I was upset at the media for doing that regarding Clark's comment in his radio interview yesterday vis a vis Dean and skiing.

Here is one headline put on an Associated Press report that I think illustrates my concern:

"Clark Attacks Dean on Avoiding Draft;
Clark Assails Dean Over Using Back Condition to Avoid Being Drafted During Vietnam War"

On the other hand, I had no trouble with the following reporting taken from a different article:

"Clark also took a slap at Dean when a radio interviewer jokingly asked if he'd be interested in a ski competition between candidates.

"I didn't have as much practice skiing as the governor did. He was out there skiing when I was recovering from my wounds in Vietnam," Clark said on WNTK radio."

The difference between the two is in the context and framing of "the event". Am I the only one who thinks the first subheader: "Clark Assails Dean Over Using Back Condition to Avoid Being Drafted" was way over the top, creating news rather than reporting it? Notice the reference to "avoiding the draft", that was the headline writers insertion, nowhere was that concept asserted in Clark's brief remark. And does anyone else here believe that Clark was "assailing" Dean by deftly workding in a reference to remind voters that Clark was a war vet and Dean wasn't? Is Dean "assailing Clark" when he points out that Clark has no experience in public office?

I posted on a thread at DU that had Clark gone out of his way to prepare and issue a Press Release on his own initiatve pointing out that Dean was having fun while Clark was bleeding, THAT would be an attack, certainly. An attack but not a distortion of facts (there is a difference). And had Clark launched such a direct specific initiative to intentionally coincide with the returns of the remains of Dean's brother, THAT might be called ruthless.

I'm sorry, but I don't think anything of that sort occurred. I do not blame Dean for repeatedly "pointing out" that Clark has voted Republican in the past, for example. He did. Dean is not informing the public of anything new when he does so, he is reminding the public of a potential liability that Clark has. That's fair politics. And Dean raises that issue himself, he doesn't wait to be asked to comment on it. I'm sure Clark wishs Democrats would stop raising and using those actions from his past against him. Clark wasn't breaking any law by voting for a Republican. It was his legal right to vote for whomever he wanted. Clark was an Independent at the time, he wasn't even "betraying his party.

Dean wasn't breaking any law taking a medical deferrment. He was rejected by the military (though Dean is on record saying he probably could have gotten in if he wanted to). Hell, I planned to go to Canada but drew a high lottery number instead, I certainly wasn't going into to push my way INTO the military. OK, fine, DEan did nothing wrong, but the fact remains that Dean did not serve and Clark did. It is a fact. In American politics Veterens tend to view their military service as a political asset and valuable experience, and those who did not serve don't refute it, they simply say that military service is not and should not be a pre condition to being election, and they stress their own assets. That's how the game is played.

So here are my main ponts so far. Clark did not even initiate a discussion about Deans non service let alone issue a Press Release about it. Clark's comments were a snippet from a radio interview where the interviewer rather slyly injected the topic. The whole thing took 10 seconds, and there was absolutely no attack on Dean's character or choices, just an factual contrast of experiences. Clark scored a couple of points. That's what politicains are trained to do, and what Clark is often criticized for not being good enough at to be able to defeat Bush in Novermber.

Then here comes the official Dean campaign reaciton:

"Dean's campaign condemned Clark for the comment made as the former Vermont governor was in Hawaii for the return of the remains of an American, missing since the war, whom Dean believes was his brother.

"This personal attack, especially on a day like today for Governor Dean, is disturbingly ruthless," said his spokeswoman, Tricia Enright."

Where the hell does that come from? "Ruthless attack"? Here is what I really think, and I am not blaming Howard Dean for this. I think in a hasty aggressive response, Enright went way over the line. Not only did she initiate an actual attack on Clark (calling him ruthless) but she did exactly what she was falsly accusing Clark of doing. Her attack sounds both ruthless and crass to my ears. She thrusted a private painful personal loss of Gov. Dean into the middle of a public debate for a partisan purpose. The only people who comes off like they are trying to take political advantage out the tragic personal loss Dean suffered is the Dean campaign itself.

It is too much of a stretch to bring all that in against Clark for what he actually said. Yes the media can be atttacked for looking for any angle they can use to get the words Dean and Draft Dodger into the same headline on that day, and then splashing it all across the nation. That is despicable, for several reasons as I started this post noting. But I am also deeply distrubed to hear someone from Dean's campaign attempting to use the body of Dean's brother as the basis of a political attack. I'm sorry, that's just the way I react to this.

I repeat, I still support Dean for my second choice, and I expect to work hard for him if he is the nominee.

Posted by Tom Rinaldo at November 27, 2003 02:41 PM

[TLM]

81. Oh Booo F-ing Hooo !

Clark attacks Dean with a cheap shot about draft dodging on the day Dean's bother's body is being returned to the US after spending 30 years in a hole in Laos, and you're whining that Dean's response to this disgusting attack was too harsh?

What Clark did was ugly and the kind of disgusting cheap shot usually perpetrated by desperate republicans. That would have been true of his statement on any day, but for him to spew that republican talking point on the same day that Dean’s brother's remains were being returned, of all days, was incredibly disgusting.

But hey, what should we expect from a war criminal like Clark, compassion? The man is a vicious craven right wing war hawk who let his true colors slip out because he couldn't pass up an opportunity to attack Dean on this of all days. I suspect Clark was worried Dean might get some positive press coverage on this day, so in true republican form, attacked Dean on his draft deferment to keep people from focusing on the sacrifice Dean’s family had already made to that war.

Simply despicable. And sadly par for the course for Clark.

[Tom Rinaldo]

86. I always find your posts so refreshing.

Fair and Balenced in the attempted Trade Mark sense of that phrase. I think your dry understated opposition to candidates who you disagree with risks being too subtle though. May I suggest that you nuance less and allow more of your feelings to show through? By the way, on another thread you asked if members of the "Clark Corp" would be as quick to support Dean if he is nominated as they are to be critical of him now. I assured you I would. Why did you ask such a question? Are you an advocate of the position that it is important for us all to close ranks around whichever of the 9 candidates running is the eventual nominee?

[Donna Zen]

66. Dean

On a Sunday gasbag show, MTP, Dean said that Clark was a repub until 25 days ago. Of course he knew at the time he was lying because the issue had come up a few weeks earlier and had been debunked. We all know now that Clark was not registered as anything, not even as an indy, nada...nothing...for his entire life. Dean knew; his supporters on this board know, and still Dean went on national tv and told that lie. His supporters--and this is fact--continue to post the lie, and knock on doors to tell the lie.

Clark did not bring up skiing...or Dean. He did shot his mouth off to a reporter, but followed up with "it doesn't matter." (not reported btw)

Shit happens. The difference here is one comment was "the big lie" and one was a "better to leave it alone" truth.

Now how long before a Dean supporter posts..."Well, he is a republican." Oh please...just do it.

[Pastiche423]

71. When clark filled out his FEC form

to register to run in the Democratic primary, he fill out his party affliation UNK. He did not become a democrat until Ocotber 17, 2003.

Why he din't fill it out "ED" (expedient democrat) I don't know.

:shrug:

[TLM]

73. CLark is a republican....

Anybody who said at a republican fundriaser in 2001 that Reagan and Bush Sr. were truly great leaders, then worked as a lobbyist for defense contracotrs, and is now attacking a Democrat for not serving in vietnam is a right wing republican war hawk.

I do not care who Clark claims he voted for or what letter he has by his name this week. The man's own words and actions before he decided to run for president as a democrat show him to be a republican.

[FrenchieCat]

80. Has Dean brother remains

even been identified as such?

Don't say anything negative about the President during Wartime

Don't say anything negative about Gov. Dean while his brother's possible not yet identified remains are identified....(although Dean's brother has been gone for years and years and years.

all of this equals to watch what you say......or else you are a monster.

I say Don't say anything negative about Clark...his father died when he was 4.


political correctness is on it's way out....will someone inform the good doctor?

Since he still bringing in the Swett resolution against Clark....another distortion....he's the one that has consistently criticized and attacked others.

Can't he take the heat or what? If not...he should definitely step out of the kitchen.....

why is it a sin the first time Clark opens his mouth?

You guys are much too much for me!

[FrenchieCat]

87. Howard Dean - Media's favorite son....watch what you say?

Is the media biased?....this is the NYT....the debate coverage...Wes Clark coverage starts on paragraph 17. Prior to that it's all Dean, Dean, Dean.

This is all that is said about Clark's perfomance.
Now the coverage was incorrect, and after a few letters the author entered a correction the following day - see correction as well.

THANKS HOWARD DEAN FOR SNEAKING IN THE SAME OLD TIRED ATTACK....
Dean is definetly getting help from the media....whether it's his brother' remains...or him "winning" the debate...

SO I DON'T think that Clark attacked anybody...I just think that the media is playing it Dean's way.....Guess we'll figure out why once it's too late...duh...

It's all a sham....wake up!

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/25/politics/campaigns/25DEBA.html

Rivals Attack Dean at Debate, Focusing on Medicare

At the MSNBC debate, Gen. Wesley K. Clark sought again to clarify confusion over his stand on the Congressional resolution that authorized President Bush to invade Iraq, saying he had misspoken in an interview on the first day of his campaign when he said he would "probably" have voted for the resolution.

General Clark also advised a member of Congress to support the resolution, though he made no mention of that when the moderator, Tom Brokaw, asked why he had "so much trouble in the opening days of your campaign trying to decide whether you would have voted for or against the resolution in Iraq."
General Clark responded: "Well, I'm glad you asked, Tom. With respect to the opening of my campaign, I want to tell you, I bobbled the question on the first day of the campaign in the back of an airplane."
"I think this party's making a great mistake by trying to make a litmus test on who would have or did or didn't vote for that resolution last October," he said at another point, nearly shouting the position from his spot on the stage. "The real issue in front of us is that this president misled the American people and the Congress into war. It's wrong."

Correction: Nov. 26, 2003, Wednesday
An article yesterday about the Democratic presidential debate in Des Moines referred incorrectly to advice once given by Gen. Wesley K. Clark in favor of the congressional resolution authorizing the war in Iraq, an incident he did not mention during the debate while trying to clarify his stand. The advice was given not to a member of Congress but to a New Hampshire candidate for Congress, Katrina Swett.

[Donna Zen]

84. Wonderland express:

Anybody who said at a republican fundriaser in 2001 that Reagan and Bush Sr. were truly great leaders,

Not what he said. Text out of context is a tool of your enemy, what have you become?

Anybody who said at a republican fundriaser in 2001 that Reagan and Bush Sr. were truly great leaders,

Links, and forget Axcion...data base phonebooks...that did government health data bases...it too piss poor an example.

and is now attacking a Democrat for not serving in vietnam is a right wing republican war hawk.

Please define attack? He said he did not go skiing. Vietnam was Clark's choice. Going skiing was Dean's choice.

Do you think that only Repubs. fought in Vietnam? Do you think Kennedy, who was in office when the war started was a repug?
Is that what you are saying? Kennedy, Johnson, my friends were all repubs? Wow. Fucking amazing the level those who live by the lie and smear by lie will go to when needing their pettiness fix.

I do not care who Clark claims he voted for or what letter he has by his name this week.

It is good to see you admit that whatever doesn't fit your version of events matters not. Now some people would consider selective truth a problem, a form of delusional thought, closed minded even, but others pride themselves on the ability form their own version of reality. Part of that ability is to actually convince themselves that they are liberal thinkers.

own words and actions before he decided to run for president as a democrat Again, how easy you find it to dismiss Cleland and Bowles as repub. Personally, I am glad that those two men are part of the Democratic Party, just as they are glad to know Gen. Clark. I assume that is why when asked he went on the stump for them. Deny all the facts you want to if it bolsters your ego, but a lie will remain a lie in the real world.

[Zero Division]

88. "You are either 100% with us and 100% against our enemies OR you are..

100% against us": that seems to sum up the die-hard anti-Clark mentality.

It seems that one statement or association that has any negative implications, no matter the context, is enough to overpower any number of statements or associations with positive implications for those who hate Clark.