Now I have really mixed on the photo op in Baghdad

[wndycty]

. . .the Army cook that was serving dinner with Bush. . .my nephew. I am proud as hell . . .but damn this sucks. But damn I am proud of him.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Your nephew was being used by the man that has endangered

his life in order to enrich his oil cronies.

[wndycty]

3. I know. . .but I am still proud of him . ..

. . .he knows how I feel and the war and president but he has a job to do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Oh there's plenty to be proud of

Regardless of what POLITICIANS did with this war, those that went there and are risking their lives are not to blame. You have every right to be proud of him.

[OrAnarch]

21. Serving his country? Hardley...

I keep seeing these motifs, which makes me think propoganda is far stronger than one could have guessed:

"Doing his duty"
"Serving his country"

Come on now. Lets wake the fuck up and turn off Fox News for a bit. He is doing nothing but his job, which is no more noble than any other (and maybe less, as it directly attributes to war crimes against humanity). Are any of us for one moment to think that to serve in the Iraq war on Bush's adventure is in service of the American people? No, it is in service of Halliburton, wether he knows it or not. And no one has any duty to participate in these crusades...

So rather, be proud that he:

"he thinks hes doing his duty"
"he thinks hes serving his country and not corporate intrests"

And while your at it, be proud for every republican thug who thinks along the same lines when they screw up. A perception of ones activities do not justify the action.

When you send him to a few of our countries ghettos to go feed the starving children, then you can say hes serving his country. In the meantime, hes feeding the troops who are destroying lives and dreams, all for the profit of a select few American companies. To not know this doesn't make him a bad person, but surely, his "belief" in doing whats right doesn't make what he does automatically right.


Sorry for the rant...in a hurry. Heading off to a memorial celebration of some German soldiers I reamain so proud of because they helped served their great nation about 60 years ago...context is never more important than nationalism.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. First off, I don't watch Fox news and second off I am a Jew so using

holocaust baiting rhetoric to slam me is a bit insulting to me given that my aunt was a child of shoah. Perhaps since you don't know who you are addressing in an online community, you might reevaluate your diatribe before hitting send.

People join the military for a variety of reasons. Some actually join with the belief that they are in the service of our constitution much the same way you believe you are in the service of our constitution by exercising your right to dissent.

I have no issue with your rephrasing "he thinks he's doing his duty" since it is far more accurate.

[OrAnarch]

33. When excercising my right of dissent....

...no one dies directly because of it. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Nice that you could qualify with the word "directly"

People die everyday when we start up our cars or boot up our computers or talk on a cell phone...whether DIRECT or INDIRECT there are no degrees of DEAD...the fact that there may be a few degrees of separation really doesn't absolve anything...but what the heck...if it makes you feel better or allows you to present yourself as better....stick with your version of events.

[OrAnarch]

38. Stop Right There!

If I read between the lines I believe Im seeing, "people die everyday so that you can have freedom."


Republican Talking points...totally fallacious.



The Native Americans died so I can live the way I do, that Ill agree with. But we have not fought a war in the name of our lifestyle since their slaughter.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. That would be your reading skills not my post

Next time you accuse me of Repub talking points you might want to consider they too twist everything to fit their narrow convenient focus.

I didn't say PEOPLE DIE EVERYDAY SO YOU CAN HAVE FREEDOM. The people I was referring to were the 2 million Africans who have died as a result of the COLTAN and other resource issues. Funny that you can cite CONTEXT but obviosly didn't know the reference. They didn't die for your freedom. They have died in the service of our CONVENIENCE as consumers.

[OrAnarch]

45. I see what your saying...

Although I think its a stretch to tie these events in African to my domestic "dissent". And in all honesty, your reference was quite ambiguous...those commodities are also associate with "freedom" in our society, along with a million other concepts (freedom being my first choice as it is a prevalent theme in our society today). But I am not in support of that trend anyway that you mention...

But I guess its all about priorities in life too. In no way to diminish the indirect death of Africans do to a liberal consumers attrocious dissent tactics, I surely hope you think it is more of a priority to stop soldiers from directly killing an entire families with various artillary. But if not, perhaps we need to all log off immediately, consume resources, not try and mass communicate our ideas of peace, live in a cave, and hope the world fixes itself.

Your point is noted, dimissed, and stamp as off topic and irrelevant. Thanks for your two cents...theres your change.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. I simply underscored the hypocrisy of your purity

it is relevent in the conversation since no one can truly claim CLEAN HANDS.

I would expect nothing short of a dismissal and a recontextualization of what I said to suit your convenient focus.

[Blue_Chill]

Your form of "dissent" turns away voters and helps the right wing

So yes people do die because of folks like yourself. Unless of course you think there is anywhere near a majority in the US of peopel who want to associate themselves with those who equate US soliders with Nazis. Or for that matter make dumb ass statements comparing serving your nation in a time of war to any other job, same thing according to you.

[Blue_Chill]

deleted duplicate

,,

[lumpy]

39. nsma, for pete's sake why do so many Jews associate everything

with the Holocaust? Do you believe you are the only people on earth that have been the target of ethnic cleansing? Haven't you realized that most Germans, including some Jews, were forced into serving during WW2 or that US troops were compelled to fight in the Indians wars in the cause of ethnic cleansing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Read HIS post. I associated nothing with anything that was not stated

in his post.

But I really appreciate the less than subtle bigotry and stereotyping involved in your question.

[lumpy]

48. You just proved my point.

"Subtle bigotry and stereotyping"? rather hypocritical wouldn't you say? Your problem, not mine.

[sangh0]

91. NO she didn't

You said "why do so many Jews associate everything with the Holocaust?"

1) How many is "so many"?

2) Do they really associate EVERYTHING, or are you eusing a little hyperbole to strengthen your argument?

If you can answer these questions in a way that shows your question is based on fact, then you can show that you haven't engaged in "Subtle bigotry and stereotyping". If, on the other hand, you cannot show that "so many" Jews associate EVERYTHING with the Holocaust, then you have indeed engaged in "Subtle bigotry and stereotyping"

[WilliamPitt]

24. I think you just called her nephew a Nazi

by inference that was about as subtle as an avalanche, and I think that was a despicable thing to do.

[wndycty]

26. Her? Will I thought you knew me better than that. . .

LOL Check your e-mail. . .I just sent you something.

[WilliamPitt]

29. D'oh!

Sorry. I see your screen name and hear that song, 'Everyone knows it's Windy..."

:)

[Terwilliger]

35. up until 2 weeks ago

I thought the same thing

Sorry :hi:

[OrAnarch]

37. Didn't call her son a Nazi...

...but rather, I was using such strongly connotated imagery to parrelell it to a similar case in the US. Within both cases, Nazi Era Germany and Neocon Era America, many soldiers felt they were doing their jobs and not working for the powers that be, but rather "for their country". in reality, that is absolutely false.

In america, we seem to hold a strong bias against wartime German soldiers, not seeing the human aspect of such, and yet, never consider that the same case applies to our own soldier: people percieving they are serving a greater cause only to be serving a greater asshole. In Germany, if was for the land and heritage of Prussian, and here, its for "freedom" and "democracy". Yeah...right.

Its for the people who pull the strings. Always is.


The only thing we can be proud of from soldiers who end up fighting a rich man's war is they belief they are doing something good. But be warned, perhaps even Bush beleives hes doign something good....does he deserve our pride? Does Hitler? Context is very important indeed.



Sometimes you gotta use such hard hitting language to jolt people, wake em up, and at least get them to start using their heads. Most certainly, it got some blood pumping and drew some people in.

[Blue_Chill]

68. So you don't support the troops

goodie for you. But there is nothing wrong or dishonorable about choosing to serve your country. You go in knowing shit could hit the fan and that you are willing to put your life on the line for others.

Could you do that, no. Perhaps your dislike for them is rooted in that fact.

[iverglas]

73. why is this post here?

"You go in knowing shit could hit the fan and that you
are willing to put your life on the line for others.

Could you do that, no. Perhaps your dislike for them is
rooted in that fact."

This isn't even innuendo. This is a direct personal attack. This is a statement that another member of DU "could not" go into a dangerous situation and put his/her life on the line for others, followed by a baseless and base insinuation that the reason why that poster "dislikes" people who participate in the atrocity that is the invasion and occupation of Iraq is his/her "inability" to do that.

Oh, sorry; I suppose I was supposed to call participating in that atrocity "putting their life on the line for others". I must be reading from the wrong hymnal. The one I was issued, the one with the verses about international law and human decency, seems to have been switched when I wasn't looking. Maybe Conrad Black and Fox News have acquired the copyright and made some revisions ... maybe Big Brother has been doing the rewrites. Do I hear "war is peace"?

The post I am replying to is an atrocity of the sort that facilitates the perpetration of all the other atrocities, its author has abandoned all pretense of integrity, and ... I am about to be reduced to sputtering, I'm afraid. Such is the effect that such appallingly anti-democratic discourse has on me.

.

[0007]

89. Wow! chill out -Blue-Chill, you went over the top

[RummyTheDummy]

71. I got what you were saying about the Nazis.....

Although a tad distasteful. I also liked your intial post a lot then you lost me.

[iverglas]

64. do you?

Maybe you could explain the thought process that led to that odd conclusion.

Do you actually think that all Germans who were members of the German military in WWII were Nazis?

Or is it only USAmericans who get to do very nasty things and be excused because they really, really thought they were doing the right stuff?

Despicable ... so often in the eye of the beholder.

.

[Must_B_Free]

74. Actually, it might be more precise to say

drawing a uncomfortable metaphor between his service and the rational for service to Nazis.

It's a tough question. Where does the responsibiliy fall? at the personal level? Is each person ultimately responsible for his actions, or is he given a pass for "following orders"? and what about Patty Hearst or the guy with the bomb collar?

[Blue_Chill]

49. Yes all US soldiers are nazis

and you are right their job is no different then pushing paper on a desk. No different.

:eyes:

[wndycty]

51. I think its funny that you call our soldiers Nazi's when you. . .

. . .have a Washington Redskins logo as you avatar. . .have you ever looked up the word Redskin in the dictionary.

[Timefortruth]

58. You are right. nt

[Blue_Chill]

62. Sarcasm went over your head?

hmm?

The little -> :eyes: usually give it away.

[wndycty]

63. True. . .but. . .

. . .it does not change the definition of redskin.

[Blue_Chill]

67. So when they change the name...

...I'll change my avatar. I agree with the change btw.

[Tatiana]

65. Where's the compassion?

This guy is just doing his job. Regardless of the illegitimate reason that put him there, he doesn't have a choice in the matter.

We need to support our troops; educate our troops, and give them the same respect and dignity we show one another. He didn't ask to be sent there.

[greatauntoftriplets]

2. I bet it was good to see your nephew, even if he was in bad company.

You should be proud of him. My own nephew got out of the Army last June, and has joined the National Guard. His old infantry unit from active duty is being sent to Iraq in January. I am relieved, but his Guard unit is asking for volunteers to go to Iraq. Right now, he is committed to attending college -- but I expect the "volunteering" thing ultimately will become orders.

[wndycty]

4. My mom, dad, sister in law, brother, sister. . .are all crying. . .

. . .but don't worry they know whats up.

[Silverhair]

52. You have every right to be proud of your nephew and apologizer

to nobody. Even though Vietnam was a horribly screwed up mess that we should have never been in, I am proud to have served in Vietnam and I apologize to no one for having served.

[wndycty]

57. Thanks for saying that. . .

. . .and there is no shame here. I learned a long time ago you can love the warrior and not the war.

[Lizz612]

105. Nice little phrase.

"Love the warrior, not the war"
Now where did that make your own bumper sticker site get to?

[Tinoire]

5. That is indeed a silver lining!

Glad you were able to see him. I can only imagine what a good surprise that was. May he stay safe!

[leesa]

7. What on earth are you proud of him for? For serving food to a war

criminal? Or is it for something else, I hope?

[wndycty]

8. Boy you really are a class act. . .

. . .he is serving his country and at this time a year its pretty tough knowing he is over there. I am proud of the warrior, not the war. A lot of anti-war veterans will tell you the same thing. Thanks for your holiday warmth

[bicentennial_baby]

10. How nice

not... :eyes:

[patdem]

14. How high is YOUR horse?

A young man doing his duty for his country is not about politics. He is about doing what he pledged to do when he joined the military.

Get off that horse of yours lest you fall off and break your neck! :grr::grr::grr: Grrrrrrr

[Cleita]

15. He was serving food to his fellow soldiers.

The fact that the war criminal is also known as the commander-in-chief puts him in an awkward position. Reserve you criticism for someone who deserves it, like the Democratic Congress members who gave Bush carte blanche to start this war.

[WilliamPitt]

20. What a damnfool thing to say.

:eyes:

[MrPrax]

9. good for him...

at least he will have one positive war story to tell his kids...

[slater71]

11. You should be proud.

Sometime you just don`t know who`s coming to dinner.

[the_real_38]

43. agreed.

You should be proud of him - this is just one symbolic gesture on Bush's part - he'll be judged on the long haul. Your nephew does something brave every day.

[blackcat77]

12. Your nephew is risking his life to serve his nation

Bush snuck in to the country in the middle of the night unannounced, made a photo op and then left.

Your nephew will be there tomorrow and many days to come.

So who's brave? Who's really giving of themselves for what is SUPPOSED to be a noble cause.

And who's just EXPLOITING the situation for political gain?

You have every right to be proud of your nephew and we ALL should be proud of our troops over there.

[gratuitous]

13. You and he should both be proud

And that Ex-lax that just "happened" to make it into Mr. Bush's portion? An unfortunate accident, you can be sure.

[AP]

16. I just want to point out how easy it is for Bush to use Iraq to his ad-

vantage.

If this election is only about Iraq, or the IWR vote, Democrats are screwed.

Democrats better develop a really well-rounded message that can't be undone by photo-ops like this one.

And I think that Democrats are going to have to deal with the fact that Bush comes across as likeable to a lot of Americans. If you attack him, Rove will easily use that to discredit the attacker. The person who beats Bush is going to beat him because he or she is MORE likeable than Bush, and not because he or she has pushed a boulder uphill of trying to make Bush seem unlikeable.

[patdem]

17. How very proud...crying through their smiles and pride....So sad

Yet hopeful, and glad he is alive. WOW...what a Thanksgiving ya'll had. So happy for you, and hope he comes home safe and whole! Glad he is a cook!!!!! :bounce: :* :hug:

[patdem]

18. Your nephew is a better cook than the Queen of England's cooks...

Bush took 5 of his cooks to England, yet he ate your nephew's Turkey dinner...I find that AMAZING...be sure to relate that to him!!

[wndycty]

19. I still think this photo op was crass. . .

. . .and I still feel that it was a response to Hillary's trip. Now in a perfect world we will be able to reach my nephew and tell him to get his pic taken with her she gets to Iraq.

[patdem]

22. That would be even BETTER...a picture with Hillary to offset

the bush* oportunism....He will have alot to come back with, as long as he brings his health too. How very sad/happy for your family to see your nephew!!! GO HILLARY!!!! Upstage the STAGED!!!

[wndycty]

25. Well I have sent him pictures of me with Gen. Clark. . .

. . .so he knows where his family stands.

[patdem]

27. I am at a point where I think it should be Dean/Clark

I have waited to commit to any candidate...I like Clark and think he would be a great President/Vice President..I only say this because I think Dean is GREAT on Domestic issues and Clark is GREAT on Foreign Policy...and I think people want a President with GREAT Domestic Policy..and if he has good Foreign Policy...okay..but Clark would tie up the problem with Dean and Foreign Policy...

Clark is a GREAT Foreign Policy experct...very important..but the MOST important??? I refuse to post in Clark/Dean posts my opinion because of the flame wars that go on..I am only posting this here because of your comment about Clark.

Sorry to burden you when your nephew is the 'star' of the day... I am glad your family got to see him alive and well. What a great Thanksgiving day-unexpected present!!!

[Pale_Rider]

28. This guy?

The one standing next to the two turkeys?

[patdem]

30. LOL...the two turkeys....what a handsome YOUNG BOY!

I guess that was the bush* dinner...wonder what everone else got to eat???

[wndycty]

31. No this guy

U.S. President George W. Bush (news - web sites) serves Thanksgiving turkey dinners to U.S. troops at a military mess hall at Baghdad International Airport November 27, 2003. Bush secretly traveled to Baghdad and paid a surprise Thanksgiving Day visit to U.S. troops November 27, 2003 in a bold mission to boost the morale of forces in Iraq (news - web sites) amid mounting casualties. REUTERS/Handout

[wndycty]

32. Here is another one

[greatauntoftriplets]

34. Thanks, wndy.

He looks like a nice young man.

[Lisa]

44. wow, Dubya's not glaring/smirking in that pic!

Here's hoping your nephew comes home safe and sound ... (hey, it's not his fault that certain people gatecrashed his dinner).

[Cheswick2.0]

82. what a very handsome young man

and tall! I hope he stays safe.

I too and very conflicted. I know that the troops are doing what they must and if they are serving each other, keeping each other safe that is the best they can do.

[Lady President]

40. Be damn proud

You have every right to be proud of your nephew! These young soldiers signed on to be part of the military to defend their country or to get help paying for their education. There is no reason in the world to be ashamed of that. They are not responsible for the lies told by the President. I will always support our troops and despise their leader. The distinction is easy to draw.

My wish is for your nephew and every other soldier to come home safely and be spending Thanksgiving with their family next year.

[OrAnarch]

47. no one there is "defending their country"

wake up...who attacked us in Iraq?


I am so sad this happened to my country. Unbeleiveable. The worse thing left is no one can differentiate fact from fox. There is nothing left of our Rome on an intellectual basis. If Bush wins next year or not the necons have allready won. Fascism is our new "democracy", with no thoughts that haven't been stamped with approaval by the US Gov and the Media.

[RBHam]

54. The new doublespeak

"fighting for our freedom" = preserving economic and military hegemony

"we won't cut and run" = Halliburton and Bechtel haven't made enough profits yet

"making the ultimate sacrifice" = dying for an unjust cause in an illegal and immoral war

"just doing my duty" = just following orders

[Lady President]

70. Or, you could actually read my post

I said: "These young soldiers signed on to be part of the military to defend their country or to get help paying for their education."

I did not say anyone was in Iraq to defend America. I said wanting to defend their country is why some soldiers enlist in the first place. Once they have enlisted there is no longer a choice for them as to where or whom they want to fight. It is completely irresponsible to place the blame on our soldiers.

Because you don't have many posts (nor do I,) I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your last paragraph wasn't a personal insult on my intellect.

[TexasMexican]

50. Moral Boost

On the one hand I can plainly see that Bush was just using those troops as a photo op.

On the other hand I'm sure most of those troops had a nice moral boost by having the President there and getting to see him.

Overall I think the moral boost for the troops does more good than the photo op does negitive.

[Malva Zebrina]

53. they think they are serving their country

I cannot understand how. I cannot understand why I should laud them for it. They are not heroes. I can sympathize with their plight--being propelled there because they joined up for the benefits--but to give them accolades-? I fail to see why. I do not think the invasion of Iraq is an invasion involveing heroism. I am sorry. The nephew might be a wonderful young man and looks as though he is, but he is not a hero doing wonderful things "for his country"

None of the soldiers caught in Bush's trap, are heroes--they invaded a country that was already in the throes of end stage disease and took it over quite easily, on the false pretenses of their commander in chief.

They simply bombed the hell out of it with the biggest and the best bombs that any rich, powerful country can provide. There was no defense--Iraq had not defenses at all. Thousands of civilians were killed on the lie.

Sorry, serving food to the costumed idiot in chief who continues to take advantage of these poor slobs who joined his army, who himself was AWOL, and who loves to wear military costumes to prove how much of a man he is, is not my idea of something a soldier needs to be lauded for.

I can understand the personal excitement to see a family member in a photo op with the godamm president,as that is rather unique and unusual, but I submit--think about it--that is how people are roped in emotionally to Bush's indefensible propaganda and lies. Be honest--if the soldier adores the president and was thrilled to serve him, then that is his choice and his politics. But it is not heroism and it in no way is connected, in my mind, as serving his country or defending his country. It is his body being used as a prop in a poorly managed stage production.

[wndycty]

56. Whatever you say. . .

"Be honest--if the soldier adores the president and was thrilled to serve him, then that is his choice and his politics"

You know so very little about my nephew or his politics, but hey if it makes you feel better attacking a man who joined the Army to provide for a better life for his two kids so be it.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. No, I am not attacking him

I have stated that the reason that people do join up is for the benefits and that is easily understood by me. You failed to read that part of the post. But, they are not heroes, in my eyes. They participated in a walk in and are now there and cannot go anywhere else.

You are trying to make me the attacker, when it is really these pathetic troops who are the victims of Bush the attacker.

The photos of Bush using these poor slobs--these young people who did the best they could, or thought they were doing the best they could for their families, are disgusting. They are an obscenity. Any one looking at those photos would have to concede that indeed the soldier serving him, and the look on Bush's face, indicates the soldier's complete complicity in Bush's intentions and invasions in Iraq. Was your nephew pretending?

I cannot, simply cannot, condone any joy at the presentation of these photo ops--I despise this man's manipulation of the soldiers. They are simply an evil device on the part of Bush, knowing his secrecy in flying in to Bagdhad, staying for two hours, posing with a ridiculous turkey plate in front of him and a black man with a cook's hat on serving him, and he, laughing it up wearing another ridiculous costumed military jacket--it is shallow and shameful.

I can understand your excitement, though, in seeing one of your relatives photographed with George Bush. That is a picture that can be put into an album and showed to the grandchildren. But, I am not obliged by any means to support the troops if that means support the mission. No way. Sorry, but your nephew looks cool--but I cannot say that I think it great that he serves Bush a photo-opportunity to look as though Bush is a great leader and a great military leader at that.

[rppper]

84. you have never been in a branch of the military, have you?

because if you have/had....you would have never made the assumptions you have made in your last two posts here. despite whatever wndycitys nephews views are, and despite whatever your opinion of the war or our service people are, it is a JOB to them...just like the 9-5 most of us have. he has superiors over him making sure he smiles, rest assured...ask any vet

...did it occur to you that the family may be happy just to see him alive and well...esp with all of the noninformation coming out of that region right now.

her nephew gave up ALL of his constitutional rights to serve. you are certainly entitled to your opinion...i don't like whats going on either, but you seem to assume that all soldiers are of one mindset...kill kill kill...make bush smile make bush smile....when i tell you that the only thing the military can't control are your own private thoughts and beliefs, believe it like the gospel...if the POTUS comes to your mess hall, you had better be smiling, no matter what your thoughts are. the soldiers and sailors and airmen there now are obligated to be there...or they go to prison. that is in their heads too. you are allowed to voice your opinion, he is not.

being proud of a family member is nothing to be ashamed of...being proud of a service member sent overseas into hostile territory...no matter how it became hostile...is also nothing to be ashamed of. you took the words of a worried family member who was both relieved and proud of their nephew and twisted it for your own rhetoric/agenda...whether you realised it or not. that is nothing to be proud of.

the nephew has no choice...in his location, that the POTUS came to visit, that we started a war...none of it....but he has to go when he is told to go, however he may feel. you should have considered that. i can't see where you have. compasion is what we as liberals are all about...at least last i looked. you are attacking your friends here, as well as preaching to the choir.

[wndycty]

86. Would you have rather my nephew's picture shown up as a. . .

. . .KIA?

[iverglas]

90. why do you ask this question????

What earthly right do you have to make such a vicious suggestion about someone, without any grounds for asking it whatsoever?

If you offered me a coffee and I said I did not like coffee, would you ask me "would you rather I choked on it and died?"? In public, where all could hear, and some would undoubtedly assume that if you've asked me that, there must be a reason to believe that I *would* rather you choked on it and died?

What earthly right do you have to suggest that the fact that someone does not like one thing means that she would like another thing, when it means no such damned thing?

What earthly right do you have to hold another person up to public scorn and contempt by suggesting that she would think something vile that you have not a shred of evidence to suggest she would think?


At least Blue Chill had the guts to make his nasty allegation straightforwardly; he just gets a zero for integrity. My respect for those who frame their nasty allegations in the form of disingenuous questions is a negative number, regardless of whether they've managed to circumvent the rules.

In civil, democratic discourse, no attempt, no matter how technically legal, is made to vilify an opponent by baseless insinuation. That's demagoguery, not democracy.

.

[wndycty]

92. So its wrong for me to make a "vicious suggestion". . .

. . .but its ok for others to make the comments about my nephew that they have. Sometimes you got to love the DU. . .unfortunately this is not one of them.

I am glad to see that people here have thick skin. I have sat and took it as others on the DU have made suggestions about my nephew. I swing back and I am criticized.

[iverglas]

96. yup, you're criticized

"I have sat and took it as others on the DU have made suggestions about my nephew. I swing back and I am criticized."

Unless you can identify something that the person about whom you made the suggestion said, that constitutes one of those "suggestions" about your nephew, then it was just an unprovoked assault. You didn't "swing back", you lashed out. Some leeway might be reasonable in your circumstances, but then one might say that some leeway might also be allowed for people who are sickened by what the US is doing in Iraq.

Frankly, I've read just about all the posts in the thread, and I've yet to see anything nearly as nasty said about your nephew as what you said in that post. In fact, I haven't seen much nasty said at all about your nephew.

Nor have I ever managed to figure out exactly what it is that you're proud of him for. You were the one who chose to say you were proud -- not relieved, or anxious, or anything else I expect that I might feel if I saw a picture of a family member in the position he's in.

And I certainly would not suggest that there are not many reasons to feel proud of just about anyone, including your nephew; I'm quite sure that you have all sorts of very good reasons to feel proud of him. I just think it's weird that this particular expression of pride was prompted by seeing him serve turkey to George W. Bush in the middle of yet another foreign-aggression atrocity being perpetrated by members of the USAmerican military, for whatever reasons they, individually, might be there.

.

[wndycty]

100. Here you go

-snip-
21. Serving his country? Hardley...


I keep seeing these motifs, which makes me think propoganda is far stronger than one could have guessed:

"Doing his duty"
"Serving his country"

Come on now. Lets wake the fuck up and turn off Fox News for a bit. He is doing nothing but his job, which is no more noble than any other (and maybe less, as it directly attributes to war crimes against humanity). Are any of us for one moment to think that to serve in the Iraq war on Bush's adventure is in service of the American people? No, it is in service of Halliburton, wether he knows it or not. And no one has any duty to participate in these crusades...

So rather, be proud that he:

"he thinks hes doing his duty"
"he thinks hes serving his country and not corporate intrests"

And while your at it, be proud for every republican thug who thinks along the same lines when they screw up. A perception of ones activities do not justify the action.

When you send him to a few of our countries ghettos to go feed the starving children, then you can say hes serving his country. In the meantime, hes feeding the troops who are destroying lives and dreams, all for the profit of a select few American companies. To not know this doesn't make him a bad person, but surely, his "belief" in doing whats right doesn't make what he does automatically right.
-snip-

7. What on earth are you proud of him for? For serving food to a war


criminal? Or is it for something else, I hope?

-snip-

[iverglas]

102. well

I think you get to complain about any of that only once you've demonstrated that any of it is untrue or unfair. I haven't noticed such a demonstration.

A whole lot of people seem to think that CALLING something something makes it that thing.

Surely you understand that it doesn't.

Surely you understand that calling what a member of a military does "doing his duty" or "serving his country" does NOT mean that this is what he is actually doing. Do you really think that a member of the US military in Iraq is "serving his country"?? If you say yes, remember: saying it doesn't make it so. You really do need to explain HOW doing that = serving his country.

That's just an example.

And I still don't know what exactly you felt proud of him for when you saw that photo, although I did ask.

.

[wndycty]

103. I felt proud because . . .

. . .like it or not he signed up to serve in the United States Army. He is doing his job and serving his country. I love the warrior but hate the war and I am proud of the warrior. I know you have a problem with that, so be it.

[rocktivity]

55. You have every right and reason to be proud of him

And every right and reason to be enraged at the people who are gambling with his life to meet their own selfish greedy ends.

Today's football games have been infused with this stuff, but don't fall for it. You can support the troops without supporting this invasion and occupation. This I know, because a Republican told me so.


rocknation

[wndycty]

60. The main thing is. . .

. . .Bush's little photo-op today allowed me to see a loved one on a day I did not expect to. Despite my distaste of Bush and this war it felt really good seeing my nephew doing his job and knowing that his Thanksgiving was something that he will remember for the rest of his life. I also thought about my brother, sister in law, mom and dad as well as my nephew's children.

I am pissed at hell that Bush sent our troops to fight in an unnecessary war and used it as a photo op, but today my family was able to see my nephew and that is exciting. My heart goes out to the many families who were not lucky enough to see their loved ones today and more importantly those (American, Iraqi, British, Polish, etc) who have lost someone as a result of this war.

[INTELBYTES]

61. You should be proud of him wndycty!

Excuse the protocol but screw anyone else who doesn't think otherwise. The fact that he is standing beside chimp is of no consequence. I prefer peace over war any day. I believe we should use every means available not to go to war, but if we have to, I'm grateful to every man and woman that wears the uniform. They are there to protect my wife and children. It is sad that they become political pawns too often, but that doesn't negate the fact that they put their lives on the line for us every day. I'm proud and grateful to your nephew!

:yourock:

[Cheswick2.0]

83. well in this case we not only didn't have to go, but it was immoral

to do so. This war in Iraq has nothing to do with protecting your wife and children and everything to do with killing iraqis for oil profits and strategic air bases.
PS... this has nothing to do with the nephew in question who is doing what he has to as he understands it. But please let's not pretend than america is being served or protected. Rather we are being bilked by Haliburton and the defense industry.

[INTELBYTES]

87. Survey says: annnnnnhhhhhh!!!

You know, why can't us dem's say we support our troops. You are right, I believe this is for strategic air base, and nothing more. Sure this is chimps war, but the fact remains the same that our troops, brothers, fathers, mothers and sisters, are off fighting a war not asking question but doing what they are ordered. For better or worse, they are doing their duty and that duty includes protecting our families at home. I think we should have waited, given the U.N. more oppurtunites, but I haven't seen proof that this war was for oil. It makes us look bad making that arguement without facts. The war is costing us more than it will make us in oil revenues to begin with. If we wanted to keep the oil, we should have just kept Kuwaits when we liberated them. We need solid arguments if we are going to win against the repukes and not just "accusations that if repeated often enough someone will believe."

[Cheswick2.0]

97. survey says: your argument is too easy to dispute

the people who are profiting don't give a flying leap how much it is costing taxpayers. They are not paying those costs. It is the perfect scam, the tax payers pay them to be there and cash in on huge profits. As to why we didn't do this in the first gulf war, D'oh! They tried, the very same people who are doing this now brought the plan to bush1 and he rejected the idea. They also brought the plan to Clinton who rejected it.
Please spare me the "it makes us look bad" bullshit. The only one here with no solid argument is you.

[INTELBYTES]

106. Sorry it took so long to answer

I had to run outside and see if we had any pipelines running across the Atlantic from Iraq. Didn't see any, but I'll keep looking!

[incapsulated]

66. I'm happy for you and your family, wndycty

I'm glad you were able to see your nephew, and there is nothing at all wrong with being proud of him.

I'm sorry you had to be attacked by these armchair revolutionary, psuedo-leftist's who I doubt have an ounce of the integrity of your newphew, regardless of his political beliefs. At least he is willing to put his on the line and do what he pledged to do, even if that endangers his own life. Attacking from behind the saftey of your little computer is easy.

[Malva Zebrina]

69. pseudo-leftists?

because they criticize the cheap photo ops of a cheap, cowardly guy who uses the troops to his own advantage?

"Pseudo-leftists" as you so disdainfully refer to others posting here, are amongst those who have protested George Bush from the very beginning of his stolen presidency through to his illegal invasion of Iraq--protesting loudly all the way -- they are patriots and have no pretenses whatsoever that could be called "pseudo-leftist"


come on--a guy supports his family by joining the military, and ends up smiling at and supporting Bush and we are supposed to automatically support him and his committment to the illegal Iraq war,and all the killing it involves, or else be called pseudo-leftists and by implication, unpatriotic? That is amusing, if not insulting.

--sorry, do not and can not run with that herd.

I do not unconditionally subscribe to the guilt laden admonition to "support the troops" no matter what. I already support the troops with my tax dollars--if they cheer and smile at Bush, and play the Bush boot licking lackey, I cannot and will not support them. It is not a requirement that I lay aside all of my moral convictions to avoid being called by those who are lashing out blindly in an emotional appeal to support troops no matter what, the sneering title of "pseudo-leftists"

[iverglas]

72. ... and personal attacks

"... pseudo-leftists ..."

I certainly regard being called a "pseudo-leftist" as one. (And hey, people wielding those broad brushes, flailing them around willy-nilly without naming their targets, attacking by innuendo, just don't get to decide whom they've actually tarred, or get to protest when anyone hit with the flying dung objects.)

"... who I doubt have an ounce of the integrity of your newphew ..."

Do you really, now? You say that without having an inkling of a clue of what kind of person this nephew is, other than the knowledge that he is in the US military and apparently following orders, and despite having actual knowledge of at least what people in this thread, including myself, have said about themselves.

You doubt my integrity, do you? Well let me return the favour, not that I have a lot of doubt myself. My opinion about the integrity of people who doubt my integrity out loud and offer no basis for their opinion is not really very high, and *I* have grounds for that opinion.

"... regardless of his political beliefs. At least he is willing to put his on the line and do what he pledged to do."

Well, I wonder who's the one making Nazi comparisons here.

If it is possible for someone to be adjudged to have more integrity than me, regardless of his political beliefs, based on the fact that he put those beliefs on the line and did what he pledged to do, I think I must also bow to Adolph Hitler, and Franco's Falangists, and the death squads of Latin America, and the Ku Klux Klan ..., when it comes to our respective standings in the integrity sweepstakes. They all put their beliefs on the line and did what they pledged to do too. What matter that those beliefs were filth?

And anyone who wishes to accuse me of calling the nephew in question here a Nazi, Will Pitt, can just try it.

"Attacking from behind the saftey of your little computer is easy."

So is following orders, I'd guess I'd have to say, from the evidence.

Although again, I have to wonder how much easier it is to go invade someone else's country and participate in the killing of them than it is to go to jail for refusing to do it. Easy enough if you're so deluded as to believe it when you're told you're doing the right thing (and thus perhaps deserving my pity, but not respect) or if you're so evil as to actually want to do it because you believe it serves your own interests (and thus deserving my contempt), I suppose.

I just wouldn't find it all that easy to go invade and kill, myself, any more than I would have in 1968, when I was 15, had anyone suggested that I should. Back then and for the next few years, of course, all I actually had to do was defy my parents and adult authority in general, and then risk my academic and future professional career, to do what *I* thought was right, but hell, that was just armchair pseudo-leftism. Nobody ever demanded that I go invade someone else's country and kill them, thus giving me an opportunity to prove my enormous integrity by doing what they told me, so I just don't count.


In point of fact, I didn't see anyone "attacking" from behind their computer in this thread. I saw people hugely disappointed that someone would be proud of an individual because he is participating in the USAmerican-perpetrated atrocity in Iraq, and expressing that opinion -- as people who are proud of someone "serving his country" in that way really ought to be proud of them for doing. People who say unpopular things in the service of what is truly right, not of what they are told and don't question, because that is what their beliefs, not their unquestioning obedience, require them to do -- who put their beliefs on the line despite the fact that they will then immediately be metaphorically spat on by the hordes who swarm to baselessly vilify them -- are the ones I choose to respect and be proud of.

If he were my nephew? *I* would have urged him to refuse to do what he is doing, and offered him every support in refusing to do it. Had he done it anyway, I would have determined by then whether he was doing it because it was his conviction that he was entitled to invade someone else's country and kill them because it served his interests, or because he was so thoroughly oppressed that he could be so completely manipulated by the people whose interests he was serving.

I "respect" and am "proud" of all people who are oppressed and simply keep themselves and their families alive; they're who keep the human race going, and keep hope for its future alive with them. I remember watching a television documentary, some years ago, about a Bangkok woman who worked as a prostitute to support her parents and siblings, and expressly thinking how proud I was of her, despite her own self-hatred. I do not respect, nor am I proud of, people who do despicable things out of self-interest.

I haven't actually expressed an opinion about the nephew in question here, since I simply don't know enough about him to do that. But I really don't think that footage of him serving food to George W. Bush in the middle of the atrocity instigated and prosecuted by said Bush would be a sight to make my heart swell, no matter what I did know about him.

.

[MedCop]

75. ! Great Man !

A great man and a great leader! He truly showed what a stand up man he is!

What better moral booster can a group of troops have than to have the Commander in Chief visit them at the front lines!

To quote the combat medic creed: SERVICE ABOVE SELF

I truly think that fits in this situation. He risked his own personal safety to make this trip and only a person who truly cares about his troops would do this.

MedCop

[thebigidea]

76. the comedy stylings of MedCop, ladies and gentlemen...

coming up next: funnyman Blueberry-Head!

[MedCop]

77. WHAT?

I don't see any humor in what I posted. You must have some sick twisted mind to find any. I aplaud the original posters relative who is serving our country defending our freedoms and I aplaud Mr. Bush as a great Commander in Chief.

Your remarks about comedy are completely uncalled for. I have served our country and find your remarks about what I have to say childish.

Next time please think before you post if all you can come up with is some cheesy one liner like that.

Thank you

MedCop

[thebigidea]

79. Freedom will never be safe as long as your kind festers...

"I have served our country and find your remarks about what I have to say childish."

I have served my country EVEN MORE, and I've got the time card to prove it. That you would even disagree with a patriot like me calls into question your patriotism - nay, your very citizenship. Why do you hate freedom so much? Why do you seem to so stridently despise the very freedom that made things like Mom, Apple Pie, and Martin Van Bueren possible?

We wonder.

"and I aplaud Mr. Bush as a great Commander in Chief."

And the laughs keep coming! Enjoy the buffet.

[wildwww2]

80. Bu$h may be the "Murderer In Chief! " But Supreme Court Usurped

the "Commander In Cheif" "Al Gore" Bu$h is still just an AWOL
deserter as far as this former Marine is concerned. And his Photo op is a disgrace to my fellow Marines who died in combat.


Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[MISSDem]

99. Surely you thought that you were posting on Lucianne.com

when you wrote this. The photo op was nothing but a part of Bush's reelection campaign. Do you really think that he would have gone if the election had been last year instead of the fact that it is coming up next year?

[Cheswick2.0]

85. rofl

yeah, bush the brave who probably had 2000 storm troopers surrounding him when he got off the plane.

[maddezmom]

78. glad you got to see your nephew

and you should be proud. And quite the handsome fellow, too bad the photo had to include the "turkey". :)

[monarch]

81. Let us know what your nephew thought of the whole thing.

What a handsome guy with a great smile! Not to be cynical, but I bet the Bush people maneuvered him into the picture.
You have a right to be proud and I hope he stays safe.

[wndycty]

94. I doubt he will say much. . .

. . .he is very apolitical.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

88. That is kind of cool... but at the same time - kind of revolting

Your nephew couldn't help it... (hope he "spit" in the turkey that he served to Bush at least.)

[TexasPatriot]

93. the rest of the world

is chiming in.... pretty negative.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s999853.htm

"The Turkey has Landed"
"Bush 'infiltrated' Baghdad for two hours"
"I came, I saw nothing, but I will conquer."

I think the reaction, over the next couple of days (and depending on what Clinton says) will be something akin to KOS's reaction.

I'm glad you got a chance to see your nephew - and I'm sure we'll all be seeing pictures of him all summer.

[MISSDem]

98. What a coup this was for Bush!

Unless the Democrats come up with some tall, handsome white man with a head of beautiful hair and a decent bod who can smooze with all kinds of folk, from Puff Daddy to the really, really wealthy socialite types, Bush will be re-elected by a landslide (We need another Bill Clinton since we can't have him again).

[bhunt70]

95. wndycty...good post and reason to be proud. <nt>

...

[MoAWO]

101. As you should be.

We all should be proud of our soldiers.

[roguevalley]

104. Good for you to see your nephew. Its not a lot of people who can say

they stood in the aura of a first-rate coward the way
he can now. Hugs to him.